I may get in trouble for this, but it's baaaack... [Archive]

Studeclunker

27th March 2008, 04:43 PM

It seems the new improved version on the Statement on Human Sexuality has made another apperance in the ELCA. I posted a response in the liberal's forum and just might get in a wee bit of trouble for it. Still, couldn't resist. The reason being; this heresy was the reason I left the ELCA in the first place. Now, they have repackaged the same thing and are trying again. Hopefully, I won't get in too much trouble...:sorry:

For anyone who's interested, here's where it's at now (includes the necessary links):

Bartolomeo posted the original question:

Draft statement on human sexuality

Any opinions on the recently issued draft statement on human sexuality?

News/Releases.asp?a=3824 on the elca site. I'm a noob so I can't post the actual link.

I note that the central issue of rostering practicing homosexual people has been deferred to next year. Does the balance of the document have much to say?

By Regular Guy:

I can post the link for you.

http://www.elca.org/news/releases.asp?a=3824 (http://www.elca.org/news/releases.asp?a=3824)

I haven't read the statement yet, so I'm not really in a position to comment further.

Here's the link for the page from which the statement can be downloaded.

http://www.elca.org/faithfuljourney/draft/ (http://www.elca.org/faithfuljourney/draft/)

Then I responded:

I've skimmed the document, just don't have the time to read it now in it's entirety. It seems to be a re-working of the same document presented to the laity well over fifteen years ago. The resurgence of this doesn't surprise me in the least. It's the acceptance of such a philosophy in the hierarchy of ELCA that caused me to switch to LCMS. Nevertheless, this document isn't news. At least, it's not new-news. It doesn't seem logical that anyone in the ELCA should be surprised by this document or it's reapperance. The rules of the forum forbid me from discussing this here any further.

Peace and guidence to you, our Lutheran brothers and sisters, in the ELCA. May you make a God pleasing, not world pleasing, decision on this.

Rechtgläubig

14th May 2008, 08:46 PM

ELCA? Heresy? Get outta town! :P

Why are they even talking about this when churches are just doing whatever they want anyways?

http://www.herchurch.org/

That is one prime example. Years ago this came up on this very board and everyone was shocked and appalled that the ELCA would tolerate such a thing. Surely the leaders must not know about this! I personally sent an email to the Bishop and pointed it out to him. He thanked me for bringing it to his attention and said he would look into it. Now, years later the only change is, that they have clearly placed the "ELCA" letters at the top of the home page. :sorry:

seajoy

14th May 2008, 09:54 PM

ELCA? Heresy? Get outta town! :P

Why are they even talking about this when churches are just doing whatever they want anyways?

http://www.herchurch.org/

That is one prime example. Years ago this came up on this very board and everyone was shocked and appalled that the ELCA would tolerate such a thing. Surely the leaders must not know about this! I personally sent an email to the Bishop and pointed it out to him. His thanked me for bringing it to his attention and said he would look into it. Now, years later the only change is, that they have clearly placed the "ELCA" letters at the top of the home page. :sorry:
Oh wow! Aren't you the famous Recht......whatever guy? :) I've heard about you, in that you are a pretty smart cookie. Please stay and post some more. You left before I joined TCL, so I never got to meet you.

Rechtgläubig

14th May 2008, 10:07 PM

Oh wow! Aren't you the famous Recht......whatever guy? :) I've heard about you, in that you are a pretty smart cookie. Please stay and post some more. You left before I joined TCL, so I never got to meet you.

Uh... oh boy... you are really starting to frighten me. ^_^

By the way... are you sure you heard them right... when they called me a smart "cookie"? lol

DaRev

14th May 2008, 10:19 PM

God help us!

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/05/14/5565166-cp.html

Rechtgläubig

14th May 2008, 10:30 PM

God help us!

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/05/14/5565166-cp.html

:sigh:

seajoy

15th May 2008, 07:49 AM

God help us!

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/05/14/5565166-cp.html

Indeed.

seajoy

15th May 2008, 07:51 AM

Uh... oh boy... you are really starting to frighten me. ^_^

By the way... are you sure you heard them right... when they called me a smart "cookie"? lol

Didn't mean to frighten you. Perhaps they said you were cooky and I misunderstood. :)

PreachersWife2004

15th May 2008, 09:53 AM

God help us!

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/05/14/5565166-cp.html

That's about as bad as it comes.

LutheranChick

15th May 2008, 02:47 PM

:sigh:
Agreed.

seajoy

15th May 2008, 03:44 PM

I saw on Fox New's website today that California is one step closer to honoring gay marriage. The high court has nixed the ban. :sick::sigh: This is another sad day for our country.

seajoy

15th May 2008, 03:51 PM

Rechtgläubig

15th May 2008, 05:15 PM

I saw on Fox New's website today that California is one step closer to honoring gay marriage. The high court has nixed the ban. :sick::sigh: This is another sad day for our country.
And this is after the people voted what, 60%(?) against this. If the people don't want it... bah what's the use...

When I came across the prayer "Our Mother who is within us...."...Yes, I wonder if their pictures are still up from the little event they held where they sculpted statues of their "godess" Asherah.

Rechtgläubig

15th May 2008, 05:26 PM

It seems the new improved version on the Statement on Human Sexuality has made another apperance in the ELCA.
The sad thing is, that this topic will continue to be resurfaced and "studied" and discussed over and over until the people have become so desensitized and exhausted they get to the point that they just don't care. In the mean time rogue churches like "Her Church" and the Canadian article that was linked become more numerous.

Well...at least thats what my hair stylist told me when he read my fortune with his tarot cards this morning... :o

PreachersWife2004

15th May 2008, 05:26 PM

That website frightens me.

I did have to laugh at their little disclaimer to "fellow" Lutherans...

Lutheran sisters and brothers: if you are visiting our website for the first time and read or see something that seems incongruent with our theological heritage please be sure you note the whole picture of our ministry and GOSPEL proclamation by looking at each page. Especially reflect on our mission statement on our home page (http://www.herchurch.org/index.html)or the info about us or the brief article about language for God. Including masculine and feminine references to God/dess in worship lays the foundation for including women and men as equal leaders in the church and in soiciety and embraces the priesthood of all believers initiated in our baptisms. God/dess is beyond gender and at the same time inclusive of both genders. Using exclusively masculine terms and systems of domination is contrary to the Gospel and the heart of the risen Christ and the mission of the church.

seajoy

15th May 2008, 05:33 PM

And this is after the people voted what, 60%(?) against this. If the people don't want it... bah what's the use....

Bah, what's the use, is right! Forget the majority ruling...it's now, "the government/judges know what's best for us." :doh:All we have to do is listen and accept it. :sigh:

"If my people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
2 Chronicles 7:14

That verse always brings tears to my eyes. What mercy God has on us, that even after all our country has done, He is faithful and would heal our land.

seajoy

15th May 2008, 05:44 PM

That website frightens me.

I did have to laugh at their little disclaimer to "fellow" Lutherans...

"Fellow" Lutherans? Shouldn't it say "lady" Lutherans. ^_^ What a bunch men hating gals.

Rechtgläubig

15th May 2008, 05:53 PM

"Fellow" Lutherans? Shouldn't it say "lady" Lutherans. ^_^ What a bunch men hating gals.
The "He-Woman Men-Haters"!

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/Rechtglaubig/our_gang.jpg

MarkRohfrietsch

15th May 2008, 06:44 PM

Someone once said "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" ELCIC and ELCA have built the Autoban to purdition.

What realy Pi**es me off is that they still call themselves "Lutheran". Most people who are not Lutheran don't know that there are Lutherans and then there are "Lutherans". Now I'm going to have to field all kinds of questions. I should look at it as an oppertunity to witness, but it still really pi**es me off!:mad:

Mark

seajoy

15th May 2008, 07:31 PM

Agreed, Mark. They should just call their's the "Anything Goes Synod". Short and to the point.

Studeclunker

15th May 2008, 09:05 PM

Yes, well... judging upon what's going on with the LCMS, we're not far behind them. It's sad, really. But there it is... It seems that these people aren't satisfied when they've polluted the theology, doxology and teachings of one church, they just keep hammering at all of them. The really frightening thing is people like our own Synodical president are right in there with them. As for you WELS members, don't think you're immune. Most of us at LCMS thought so too. Now we're dealing with the same problems, the same early symptoms of the disease that ELCA suffers from.

As to same sex marriage in California:

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.asp?cat=TopStories&referrer=welcome&id=20080515/482bb540_3ca6_1552620080515-2113445533

I have to agree with McCain's campaign manager. The courts have no business making these decisions. Unfortuneately, our legislature doesn't have the spine to impeach these people when they pull this kind of shennanigans. The court has overstepped their venue by legislating in their decisions. They had no precident to base a decision on. There was no legal grounds upon which California law provided for same sex marriage. Therefore the court created their own precidents and forced upon the people of California a legal creation of the court's.

I seriously doubt that the constitutional ammendment would be able to be carried off. Since the extreme left holds such sway here and throws obscene amounts of money behind their agendas, an ammendment has little hope of passing. Then again, the Lord has pulled off greater miracles than this...

Pray for us, please.:groupray::prayer::pray::crossrc::crosseo:

My appologies. This whole situation with the ELCA, the tug-of-war going on in the LCMS... sometimes it gets just a bit... overwhelming. sigh #:(

Rechtgläubig

15th May 2008, 11:26 PM

As for you WELS members, don't think you're immune. Most of us at LCMS thought so too. Now we're dealing with the same problems, the same early symptoms of the disease that ELCA suffers from.

I agree totally!

filosofer

15th May 2008, 11:54 PM

MarkRohfrietsch

16th May 2008, 07:20 AM

Howdy. Keep in mind that there still are faithful Lutherans in the ELCA. While the denomination has most definitely strayed, we can and should reach out with encouragement to those who are struggling against the tide.

It is very difficult to reach these people. There are strong emotional ties to their edifice, and as much as they dispise the doctrinal shift, they find it dificult to leave. Also, congregations for the most part do not own their Church, the Synod does, again making it dificult for a Congregation to leave.

The friends that I know in ELCIC for the most part have just stopped going. There still seems to be a stigma attached to LCC and LCMS as a bunch of strict, pregediced, hard a**s. I think they want to be "liberal", but not too "liberal"

synger

16th May 2008, 09:36 AM

When I came across the prayer "Our Mother who is within us...." I about fainted dead away! :eek: :swoon:Where do they get this crap? :doh:Thanks for the link, except I wanna :sick: now.
Whenever we bring up herchurch, I am reminded of the late 90's upset in the PCUSA (before I converted to Lutheranism) about the "Reimagining Conference (http://www.layman.org/layman/news/news-around-church/reimagining-god-movement-10-years.htm)". It had much of the same stuff, and purported to "re-imagine" God in both feminine and masculine terms.

Now I don't have problems with including "feminine" attributes to the Godhead, when they are Scriptural. God is neither male nor female. But I really have a problem with how far to the feminine they take it. When they begin calling the Spirit "Sophia" (divine wisdom), and serving milk and honey instead of wine and bread... *shudders*

I just add this to let you know that the struggle is not new, and is not denomination-specific. We are not alone in our fight to stick to conservative, confessional doctrines. It is from the aftermath of and backlash against the ReImagining conference that the PCUSA put the famous "fidelity and chastity" clause for ordained church workers (pastors, elders, deacons, etc.) into their Book of Order: "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness." It was just upheld (http://65.173.210.46/pcnews/2008/08117.htm)this past February, too.

Now, like in the Lutheran churches, it is not so much a matter of whether it is allowed by the rules or not, but rather whether folks are subject to church discipline if they go outside the rules.

Studeclunker

16th May 2008, 01:45 PM

<snip> When they begin calling the Spirit "Sophia" (divine wisdom), and serving milk and honey instead of wine and bread... *shudders*
<snip>
Now, like in the Lutheran churches, it is not so much a matter of whether it is allowed by the rules or not, but rather whether folks are subject to church discipline if they go outside the rules.

That first bit about the goddess Sophia as well as the milk and honey service is just... scary.:o:eek: It's a slippery slope when one begins to tinker with doctrine and theology...

The thing that frightens me the most about the LCMS is it's our synodical LEADERS who are straying. Thankfully, they don't own the congregation properties, still... I'm sure they have their own ways of attacking congregations who cause trouble with their (the President's and his cronies') agendas.

Flipper

29th June 2008, 12:12 PM

Sorry, I just now saw this.

Goddess Rosary? :eek:

Reicht!!!! :clap: Still playing silly video games?

PreachersWife2004

29th June 2008, 12:22 PM

The WELS is treading lightly these days. We got a new president and hopefully we'll see some light from that soon. What we are dealing with mostly is financial burdens and mistakes. We've been blessed that the doctrinal issues that have come forth have been handled correctly and in a timely manner.

I really do believe that our synod knows what's at stake here and so they are proceeding with caution on everything they do. For awhile, there seemed to be a split in the WELS, and there might still be, I don't know. The Michigan District has quite the reputation in the WELS (which is good in my mind because we got that rep for upholding doctrine over decisions).

We pray daily for our synod, as well as the LCMS and ELCA and other synods. We face tough times as it is...it sure would be nice to face them together as one big Lutheran synod, but I think that is a pipe dream.

DaRev

29th June 2008, 01:13 PM

What the LCMS needs is another Jack Preus (who was an ELS transplant).

PreachersWife2004

29th June 2008, 01:35 PM

What the LCMS needs is another Jack Preus (who was an ELS transplant).

I just recently overheard part of a conversation where two pastors were talking about Jack Preus. I don't know him personally but what I've heard seems to be very favorable.

See, we were having difficulties with our president...some mistakes were made, and he was humble enough to step down. He merely put out a statement that said despite a couple of districts lobbying for him, he wasn't going to put his name in the hat for re-election. This was the best move he could've ever made. It is really too bad that Kieschnik (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) couldn't have done the same thing, but I think that God will see the LCMS through this time. HOW He sees it through might get interesting, though!

filosofer

29th June 2008, 01:46 PM

I just recently overheard part of a conversation where two pastors were talking about Jack Preus. I don't know him personally but what I've heard seems to be very favorable.

For the sake of clarity: J. A. O. Preus, II (known as "JAO" or also "Jack") was LCMS President 1969-1981; He was the ELS transplant in the 1950's, but he died in 1994. His brother was Robert Preus, formerly President of Concordia Theological Seminary, Fort Wayne (died in 1995), and father of Daniel, Rolf, Klemet, and a few others. ;)

His son, J. A. O. Preus, III (known as "Jack"), his son, is currently President of Concordia, Irvine.

So, you have to clarify which "Jack" you mean.

PreachersWife2004

29th June 2008, 02:16 PM

Philo, I suppose I can't, since it was only a partial conversation I heard.

I do know that some of the good stuff I can definitely attribute to the older guy because it was in the context that he was president at some point in time.

I didn't realize the guy was dead, though. Oops.:blush:

Studeclunker

29th June 2008, 02:22 PM

I just recently overheard part of a conversation where two pastors were talking about Jack Preus. I don't know him personally but what I've heard seems to be very favorable.

See, we were having difficulties with our president...some mistakes were made, and he was humble enough to step down. He merely put out a statement that said despite a couple of districts lobbying for him, he wasn't going to put his name in the hat for re-election. This was the best move he could've ever made. It is really too bad that Kieschnik (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) couldn't have done the same thing, but I think that God will see the LCMS through this time. HOW He sees it through might get interesting, though!

The how is the scary part. It seems that the conservative Christian Church (of all denominations) is under attack by old Scratch himself! He's attacking through the Liberal Agenda. It all even sounds so reasonable till one examines it closely and finds that these people believe in nothing, nothing at all.

I wonder if Dr. Rosenbladt is still teaching at Concordia Irvine. He was a wonderful teacher to learn from and gave much direction in finding out the whys and wherefores of our belief system. Last I heard though, his health (mental and physical) was failing. A sad, sad, loss to the LCMS.

PreachersWife2004

29th June 2008, 02:43 PM

You know the saying "the bigger they are the harder they fall"? Well, I attribute that to alzheimer's as well. We have two guys in our church now that were fantastically brilliant professors in their time. One of them was a very good friend of mine, even though he was 20 years my senior. He is 56 years and doesn't recognize his wife, but he recognizes me. He will forget how to dress himself. It is so sad to watch this brilliant mind go dim.

Studeclunker

30th June 2008, 01:16 PM

You know, PW. I've heard that said before. Still, in holding the line against the corrupters, we need all the help we can get. The loss of Dr. Rosenbladt will be a heavy blow. :(

Gee... if the brilliant burn out quickly with Alsheimers and such, does that mean the dim-whitted and doofy like me will continue consistantly to the end (LOL)?:tutu::P Then again, 'use it or lose it,' would probably be my luck.;)