More Church Questions

[cristianna]

Much to the shocking surprise of everyone...:P ... I'm still doing alot of thinking about churches.

And I just want to make sure I'm not being too picky in my selection process. But really I am taking an incredibly long time because unless something happens in which I can absolutely, positively not agree with the church, I look at it like family. There are good times and bad times, but I'm still sticking with it. I guess that's the easiest way to put it.

What expectations do you hold for a church?

I'm beginning to fear I'm downright picky.

My first desires/wants of a church:

promotes growth and maturity for all ages
it's basis is maturing but still has a somewhat nice selection of fellowship activities for all ages
is active in the community at least equally if not more so than globally
holds itself accountable
From there I do have others that would be one tier lower on the priority scale such as: contemporary services, moderately located close to home, studies (anything from personal to marriage to parenting), etc. The whole warm and fuzzy feeling congregation is somewhere between priority and this.

And the list continues to trickle down with more than one service, small groups would be a definite bonus- things like that.

[Redheadedstepchild]

Hmmmm...

I don't know if you are being overly picky. But, it may be that you have to settle without some of the things you want. And then perhaps you can be an agent for change once you have gotten to know people. And you never know, perhaps there are others who feel as you do on certain issues but for whatever reason have not addressed it.

For example, you know that one of the things I really wanted in a church was children's church. But, the church I felt led to did not have a children's church. I joined anyway...who am I to say no to God? Now, I asked about children's church before ever joining so people know pretty much where I stand on that....but that wasn't enough to cause change. So I kinda let it go. But, since joining I've gotten involved with the children's music ministry. Which gives me the opportunity to participate in the children's ministry council. And, as a result of attending those meetings I have discovered that other people want a children's church. We still don't have one, but at least it is now seriously being considered. We'll see where it goes from here.

I guess what I'm saying in my rambling way is if you feel you are being led somewhere, go with it and trust that the details will get worked out somehow.

[cristianna]

I agree Red. The problem is I'm now down to selecting two churches. Ugh. Even though they are churches it's like comparing apples to oranges.

[Texas Lynn]

Most UMC churches would seem to pass muster with the criteria.

IMO smaller churches are better except if you make yourself available for leadership you get exhausted quickly.

I am very envious of an Episcopal Church which has such a wonderful core group who keep things going. They are a delight to behold.

[Texas Lynn]

I agree Red. The problem is I'm now down to selecting two churches. Ugh. Even though they are churches it's like comparing apples to oranges.

How about posting a force field analysis and let us comment on it?

Take an aspect like hospitality: say church A has a good number of gregarious, open, loving people and church B has more reserved people. You may prefer Church B in that regard-they don't call Mainliners "The Frozen Chosen" for nothing! But you could perhaps put an asterisk by which one is the more positive of the two for you.

[cristianna]

Most UMC churches would seem to pass muster with the criteria.

IMO smaller churches are better except if you make yourself available for leadership you get exhausted quickly.

I am very envious of an Episcopal Church which has such a wonderful core group who keep things going. They are a delight to behold.

You have an interesting perspective. I'm not too eager to find a smaller church for the exact reason you have stated: everyone gets burned out quickly and generally it's the same names listed over and over and over that are doing chairing/volunteering things.

I do prefer medium sized ones (500-1000) because you don't get lost or become a number, and from what I've seen there are ample people willing to help out, head up and coordinate a vast variety of things. I'm accustomed to well over the 1000 member range because of the number of years at our previous church. It was awesome, but I would like something just a tad bit smaller.

How about posting a force field analysis and let us comment on it?

Take an aspect like hospitality: say church A has a good number of gregarious, open, loving people and church B has more reserved people. You may prefer Church B in that regard-they don't call Mainliners "The Frozen Chosen" for nothing! But you could perhaps put an asterisk by which one is the more positive of the two for you.

That's not a bad idea, and something I will definitely consider.

[Texas Lynn]

I have never belonged to a church with more than 200 in the pews except on Easter and Christmas and never especially wanted to. But that's all some know.

[cristianna]

I grew up in a very big church. 3 services. Lots going on. It was the church in town if you were Methodist, and kind of cliquish. They ended up builing one of those mega sanctuaries.

When I started looking last year for a church I knew I didn't want another big one (though I visited one anyway). I have a personal issue about financing all of those wonderful programs that come along with a big church. I know it's a hang-up and don't expect others to feel the same. Anyhoooooo

What I did want though was the same feel as the big church. (Yeah, I like cake and I'll eat it too). I wanted a traditional church where people kind of had the same interests and expectations as I did. But you know what, I went to the church in town that I thought I would really like based on my list of wants....and man it felt flat. Now, maybe that's because I'd been spending time in the pentecostal church, I don't know. Whatever it was, I didn't feel like that church was a place where I could grow spiritualy.

I ended up in a country church, in the little community where I live. It's a different culture from what I'm used to, and no way would I ever have thought I would end up here. But here I am, and surprisingly it's a good fit for me. It's weird how those things work out sometimes. *shrug*

Not sure there was a point in all that. Oh well.
Isn't it crazy how things do work out? I'm the epitome of a city girl who willing relocated out of the city. Everyone thought I was insane and wouldn't last. I'd move back to the city tomorrow, but for the most part I'm content where I'm at.

Another plus of the UMC is the rather "representative democracy" aspect of church governance in the local church and the conferences. Of course, to some, that's a net negative.
I do think it's plus. :thumbsup:

I'm about ready to immerse everyone in questions. But I'm refraining.

I would like everyones opinion on something though. When a visitor is visiting your church, how important do you think it is for the congregation to make them feel welcomed? Whether it's a friendly smile, a handshake, general greeting or small talk.

And not specifically you, but your congregation in general, how many do you think take notice and make an effort to be inviting and welcoming?

Not that this is really of importance to me. I mean it is, but it's far from a deciding, end all factor. But as I continue to reflect on things my eyes are opening more and more and more. Being a visitor over the past few years to alot of churches I can definitely say I'm glad to have experienced the "new visitor" so that it keeps me on my toes on how welcoming I am.

[cristianna]

...

[cristianna]

I have never belonged to a church with more than 200 in the pews except on Easter and Christmas and never especially wanted to. But that's all some know.

That would be called a slow Summer Sunday for me. ^_^ And yes, as a matter of fact it really is all I know. I guess it was the area or something because many of them were what I considered large-very large.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I grew up in a very big church. 3 services. Lots going on. It was the church in town if you were Methodist, and kind of cliquish. They ended up builing one of those mega sanctuaries.

When I started looking last year for a church I knew I didn't want another big one (though I visited one anyway). I have a personal issue about financing all of those wonderful programs that come along with a big church. I know it's a hang-up and don't expect others to feel the same. Anyhoooooo

What I did want though was the same feel as the big church. (Yeah, I like cake and I'll eat it too). I wanted a traditional church where people kind of had the same interests and expectations as I did. But you know what, I went to the church in town that I thought I would really like based on my list of wants....and man it felt flat. Now, maybe that's because I'd been spending time in the pentecostal church, I don't know. Whatever it was, I didn't feel like that church was a place where I could grow spiritualy.

I ended up in a country church, in the little community where I live. It's a different culture from what I'm used to, and no way would I ever have thought I would end up here. But here I am, and surprisingly it's a good fit for me. It's weird how those things work out sometimes. *shrug*

Not sure there was a point in all that. Oh well.

[Texas Lynn]

Another plus of the UMC is the rather "representative democracy" aspect of church governance in the local church and the conferences. Of course, to some, that's a net negative.

[ParaCristo]

I've been reading Diana Butler Bass' book Christianity for the Rest of Us which examines dynamic Mainline churches. She found "hospitality" to be a major factor in these churches' successes.
I would definitely believe that.

I used to go to a fairly large Methodist Church (4000-5000) and I felt lost...literally
I felt like a cattle in a trough
We were forced to exit the service immediately to our left to make way for the next service and move into the "mingle area" for socializing.
If we didn't go within 5 minutes...ushers would come escort us...
I kid not.

[cristianna]

Newest response is in #8 on page 1. lol

[cristianna]

I would definitely believe that.

I used to go to a fairly large Methodist Church (4000-5000) and I felt lost...literally
I felt like a cattle in a trough
We were forced to exit the service immediately to our left to make way for the next service and move into the "mingle area" for socializing.
If we didn't go within 5 minutes...ushers would come escort us...
I kid not.

:eek: OH MY!!!!!!! :doh:

[Texas Lynn]

I've been reading Diana Butler Bass' book Christianity for the Rest of Us which examines dynamic Mainline churches. She found "hospitality" to be a major factor in these churches' successes.

[ParaCristo]

I've been reading Diana Butler Bass' book Christianity for the Rest of Us which examines dynamic Mainline churches. She found "hospitality" to be a major factor in these churches' successes.
I would definitely believe that.

I used to go to a fairly large Methodist Church (4000-5000) and I felt lost...literally
I felt like a cattle in a trough
We were forced to exit the service immediately to our left to make way for the next service and move into the "mingle area" for socializing.
If we didn't go within 5 minutes...ushers would come escort us...
I kid not.

[cristianna]

More questions...

How important do you think it is for the Pastor to:

carry their own weight
be instrumental in leadership of the overall church
hold the congregation accountable for their growth as an individual and supporting each others growth
helping to find compromise when opinions conflict

[Texas Lynn]

More questions...

How important do you think it is for the Pastor to:

carry their own weight
be instrumental in leadership of the overall church
hold the congregation accountable for their growth as an individual and supporting each others growth
helping to find compromise when opinions conflict

First two, very important. Second two, depends on the circumstances. "Accountability" is significantly different for Mainline churches as opposed to more controlling ones.

[cristianna]

Thanks TexasLynn.

Another question:

If the church's last bible studies were right after the movie Passion of the Christ was released on dvd and again recently... would that cause any alarm or concern to you?

[GraceSeeker]

If the church's last bible studies were right after the movie Passion of the Christ was released on dvd and again recently... would that cause any alarm or concern to you?


If I was looking for a church that offered continous Bible studies throughout the year, it would. But if I found that there was Bible study going on in the various Sunday school classes and/or that people had their own independent Bible studies in which they invited others to join them, and that the church had other small group ministries for nurturing spiritual growth, then No, it wouldn't.

Remember, Bible study is a means to an end, not the end in and of itself. It might also be that this church elects to do annual Lenten Bible studies (thus the apparanent timing with the Passion) and finds that sufficient for them. Then you will have to determine if this is sufficient for you or not. It may be. It may not be.

[Texas Lynn]

Thanks TexasLynn.

Another question:

If the church's last bible studies were right after the movie Passion of the Christ was released on dvd and again recently... would that cause any alarm or concern to you?

When would that be, about 2005, 2006? Maybe, maybe not. Do they have Adult Sunday School? Many churches have that without a weekday evening or weekend afternoon or morning (or possibly a weekday morning for the elderly) Bible study.

Something like that (Bible Study) should be a church program if people want it, but rather than condeming they're not having it or bemoaning it a proper response might be to explore why they don't.

Is this a small-small (less than 50 in the pews on Sunday) church? If not, what else are they doing?

UMs usually have Sunday Services, Sunday School, women's and men's association meetings, youth groups if they have more than 2-3 teenagers, and various other things.

Sometimes new people come into church and get drafted into leadership. It's generally not respected to just come into a church and say "I'd like to be Chairman of the Board of Trustees" because people will look at that in askance and rightfully so. Get to know people first.

I guess what I am saying is that if some prospective member were to confront the pastor with "Why haven't we had a Bible Study since 2006?" pastors like my Dad would try to turn that around and try to find some tactful way of saying "How would you like to coordinate one for us?"

What it seems to me like is what I encounter as a Union Steward-people say "What is the Union going to do for me?" Unionism or labor syndicalism is all about uniting and working together not individual advantage. That is lost on many in our selfish world. So it is also with churches--people are always "What's in it for me?"

When people join the UMC we pledge to support the church body and the local church with "our prayers, our presence, our gifts, and our service." I think those are listed that way to show a decreasing frequency of the way they play out. Some people will always pray for the church, that doesn't cost anything. Presence-some come only Easter and Christmas but a good number will come 3/4 Sundays a month or more. Gifts-that tax deduction helps, but some are very generous and others are niggardly but at least they give something though I have shook my head in wonder upon seeing hastily scrawled $10 checks from people driving a new SUV. But Service-that's where some draw the line. Our Megachurches serve mostly as religiously oriented entertainment complexes for some. To be a trustee, Sunday School teacher, etc. is much more than some can bear.

[cristianna]

When would that be, about 2005, 2006? Maybe, maybe not. Do they have Adult Sunday School? Many churches have that without a weekday evening or weekend afternoon or morning (or possibly a weekday morning for the elderly) Bible study.

You got me. Without research I would say probably 2006. Yes they have Adult SS.

Something like that (Bible Study) should be a church program if people want it, but rather than condeming they're not having it or bemoaning it a proper response might be to explore why they don't.

Is this a small-small (less than 50 in the pews on Sunday) church? If not, what else are they doing?
I'd say there's probably about ~125-150 per service. They only offer Adult SS routinely. Obviously anything above and beyond is quite seldom. Why? From what I see and understand through others because many don't have an opinion either way.

UMs usually have Sunday Services, Sunday School, women's and men's association meetings, youth groups if they have more than 2-3 teenagers, and various other things.
Yes, they have UMM & UMW, a middle school & high school youth group (one each) and your typical choirs divided into several age ranges.

Sometimes new people come into church and get drafted into leadership. It's generally not respected to just come into a church and say "I'd like to be Chairman of the Board of Trustees" because people will look at that in askance and rightfully so. Get to know people first.

I guess what I am saying is that if some prospective member were to confront the pastor with "Why haven't we had a Bible Study since 2006?" pastors like my Dad would try to turn that around and try to find some tactful way of saying "How would you like to coordinate one for us?"
I personally would not have a problem coordinating it. I certainly don't feel qualified to lead one, but I really would carve the date in stone, advertise, have contact persons arranged, etc.

BTW, I've done the same thing your father has to parents while coaching sports. lol It was my tactful way of saying: I am one person and my ultimate commitment is to this area. But feel free to talk with others and come back to me when you have a plan of action gathered.

What it seems to me like is what I encounter as a Union Steward-people say "What is the Union going to do for me?" Unionism or labor syndicalism is all about uniting and working together not individual advantage. That is lost on many in our selfish world. So it is also with churches--people are always "What's in it for me?"
And I have no problems saying I'm borderline one of those. For me, the church I would want to call home is going to help me grow through various assortments from studies to community services to individual relationships and more. I realize a church can only do so much and an individual must choose to apply those teachings or not.

When people join the UMC we pledge to support the church body and the local church with "our prayers, our presence, our gifts, and our service." I think those are listed that way to show a decreasing frequency of the way they play out. Some people will always pray for the church, that doesn't cost anything. Presence-some come only Easter and Christmas but a good number will come 3/4 Sundays a month or more. Gifts-that tax deduction helps, but some are very generous and others are niggardly but at least they give something though I have shook my head in wonder upon seeing hastily scrawled $10 checks from people driving a new SUV. But Service-that's where some draw the line. Our Megachurches serve mostly as religiously oriented entertainment complexes for some. To be a trustee, Sunday School teacher, etc. is much more than some can bear.
I totally agree with your last line. A Trustee is definitely not something I personally could do. I spent six years Chairing a Ministry along with tons of other behind the scenes things and enjoyed it greatly. But I know my limitations and will clearly state them.

Overall my biggest compaint with any church is the number of members with obvious, and even hidden talents they do not see, that God has given them which are not being utilized.

Although I'm a math geek I certainly don't want to be incorporated into numbers outside of a request for special help with auditing or projections. I thrive and really enjoy other areas, and choose to use my talents outside of the scope of my professional work. But everyone knew they could ask for help if the time came.

Really this stems from seeing so many people at the church who would be awesome in areas that are not tapped into: bible studies (especially although I know of other churches I could go to for some), small groups homebased or not, etc. And like myself, I really would understand if they were not interested or felt it wasn't their thing.

For me personally I just find it odd or peculiar to not at least offer several studies a year- even if it was only two.

[GraceSeeker]

For me personally I just find it odd or peculiar to not at least offer several studies a year- even if it was only two.

...and cristianna, while I can understand why you and many others might find it odd, I can also tell you that not every church in fact does.

Now, should this be a warning sign? (Your earlier question.) Maybe so, maybe not. It all depends on what your expectations are and the reasons that they don't. Really, until you find out what their goals are with regard to Christian education it is hard to tell if it is because they have a different agenda than you, simple laziness, already satisfied (perhaps too easily so), or are finding those needs same needs met in some other way that you have yet to identify. And without knowing the answer to all of that, it is rather hard to say that this is a warning sign. That best I can say is that it is worthy of more research if you otherwise have interests in this church. And if you don't, there appears to be no reason that you shouldn't move on without regret.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I would definitely believe that.

I used to go to a fairly large Methodist Church (4000-5000) and I felt lost...literally
I felt like a cattle in a trough
We were forced to exit the service immediately to our left to make way for the next service and move into the "mingle area" for socializing.
If we didn't go within 5 minutes...ushers would come escort us...
I kid not.

I believe you. I will be visiting a Mega UMC this summer - they have their own food court. *shudders* There's just something unsettling about that. (for me)

Don't get me wrong, it's truly great that so many people are being reached, but how can you feel you are part of a community in a setting like that?

[cavell]

What expectations do you hold for a church?


church = ekklesia = a calling out. 'Those that have been called out"

In the N.T the 'church' refers to those who are following Jesus. Acts ch 2 : 47 "The Lord added daily to the church...." ...that company of people who were following Jesus.


The first followers of Jesus were known as people of the 'way' Act 19 : 23.

Acts 16 : 17 "show into is the 'way' of Salvation
" 18 :25 "instructed in the 'way' of the Lord
" 18 : 26 "the 'way' of God more perfectly

and so on

Jesus had said "I am the Way......."

In later years these people of the 'way' became known as Christians. "and the disciples were called christians first in Antioch" Acts 11 : 26 It was a nickname in its first use.


The Christian name has remained with us down the ages. We are 'Christians' we are 'church' Privileged among men in that we have known and recognized the call of God, the call of the holy Spirit in our lives.......We have responded and accepted Jesus as Saviour, and have joined ourselves to the fellowship of His people......the church

So my first expectation in my church attendance, would be to feel as I attend, that I am in His presence. I am amongst a company of people who have met, and who know, and love the Lord Jesus.

Such company is filled with joy and praise as we worship Jesus, exclusive worldwide, but available worldwide for 'church' in this sense is worldwide

[Redheadedstepchild]

More questions...

How important do you think it is for the Pastor to:

carry their own weight
be instrumental in leadership of the overall church
hold the congregation accountable for their growth as an individual and supporting each others growth
helping to find compromise when opinions conflictAnother question:

If the church's last bible studies were right after the movie Passion of the Christ was released on dvd and again recently... would that cause any alarm or concern to you?

The 1st 2 above are essential. Not so sure about the 3rd one... I guess it would depend on what you meant by held accountable. The 4th one...I don't know that it's always appropriate for a pastor or anyone else to step in... though if I were a pastor I might anyway, but that might be more of an ego thing. Fortunately I'm not a pastor.:P

I don't know if I would be alarmed about the Bible study exactly, but it might be a sign that the church would not fit my spiritual needs if other small group/Sunday schools were not available. OTOH, I would think nothing of joining a Bible/small group study at another church if it meant meeting my needs.

Cristianna, you know I love you :), are you trying to talk yourself out of a particular church?

[cristianna]

No, quite honestly-since you asked, I'm trying to talk myself into it.

There's a conflict of opinion at home. And while my head says don't care about dh's biased opinion... I know in my heart the advice I received about still viewing him head of household even in this aspect despite his beliefs and feelings on religion and church... is... :sigh:... right. Really by asking him his opinion and showing that I was seriously taking it into consideration, I selfishly thought that was enough in itself.

Last night I pretty much forced myself to decide who cares- just go along with it, and be thankful he's willing to come to church more times than not. :sigh:

:doh: :doh: :doh:

And yes, I will probably spend my time equally amongst another church that has programs and extra things I personally would want to do.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I totally understand.

[cristianna]

Thanks Red, I know you do. :hug:

Now who would like an invite to my pity party? :sorry: lol

Just kidding. Well sort of.

I guess I'm okay with it; or I should say I'm still working on the emotional aspect of making a decision to be okay with it.

So...........I WILL make the best of it, and every time I want to whimper and whine I'll just have to remind myself about the wonderful things that have happened during our times there.

[cristianna]

I just thought I would share this with everyone, being as it's a comical smack in my face.

Daily I receive devos in my inbox. Today's was good. Too good. Made me laugh, made me gasp, made me realize my attitude has been STINKING during all of this!!!!!!! I definitely got the point! :doh:



So without further ado--




Loving the Bride
By: Amy Carroll

“Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.” Revelation 19:7 (NIV)




Devotion:
Years ago during the midst of a really trying time in our church, I cried out to the Lord in frustration one morning. I had a bargain that I thought sounded like a great idea. “Lord,” I said, “I would really like to have You without the church. I mean, wouldn’t that be OK? I’m not giving up my faith in You. I just don’t want to have anything to do with the church anymore.” I was worn out from strife, bickering, and factions. I was confused about the purpose of church and why God would want me to be part of something that was causing so much stress and sleeplessness.

The next thought that I had clearly was not my own, because it was definitely not the answer for which I was longing. “Amy, if someone wanted to be your friend and love you without loving Barry (my husband), how would you feel about that?”

Even though I was starting to have an idea about where this was going, I answered honestly. “Lord, you know that I couldn’t have a close relationship with anyone who didn’t love my husband, too. Barry is too much a part of me. Anyone who loves me gets Barry as part of the package.”

That still, small voice continued, “Amy, the church is my bride. You cannot have me without my bride.”

I was stunned. I had never before thought of my relationship with the church in that way. Not only was I to love the church because of God’s love for it, but I am also to be part of the church which God calls as His bride.

Hebrews 10:25 says, “Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” It’s not always easy being a member of a church. There are people there, you know? I joke that if I found the perfect church, it wouldn’t be perfect anymore the minute I joined! Yes, often church involves the messiness of humanity as much as than the encouragement of divinity.

As I mature, I’m seeing some of that messiness as God’s way of growing me up. It forces me to choose between offense or grace, between bitterness or forgiveness and between selfishness or service. When I make the right choices, I become a little more like Him and help to create a more radiant bride. That makes being part of a church worth it.

Lord, will you help me to find a church in which I can grow and encourage others? Because I love You, I want to be part of the church that you call to be your radiant bride. In Jesus’ Name, Amen.

Application Steps:
If you haven’t been part of a church in a while, begin to visit one. I know that it’s sometimes hard, but God has a church for you to participate in.

If you already belong to a church, begin to pray for others who you can invite to be part of your church family. Someone who is hurting would love for you to reach out to them!

Reflections:
Have I let hurt from churches in the past impede my spiritual growth and walk with Jesus in the present?

Am I part of the problem or solution at my church?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Mmmmhhmmmmm....

I felt for years that I didn't need church, and especially not the people in church. It was only last year that I realized that not only did I need church, but it needed me. That was a huge moment when I finally got that....when I finally understood what it meant to be part of that community. I hope I never forget it.