Clapping During Song

[Molal]

I attend a church of Christ where singing is acapella. Occasionally, someone will start to clap (usually the teens) and some, but not all, of the congregation will follow.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this. For me , I feel uncomfortable with clapping during worship; however, I am unable to provide any biblical reasoning for this feeling, this does not mean; however, that it doesn't exist.

So, am I right to feel uncomfortable? Do you think that clapping is a slippery slope?

Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts.

[holo]

So, am I right to feel uncomfortable? Do you think that clapping is a slippery slope?If it's a slippery slope, where is it that you're afraid you'll end up?

[DerSchweik]

All I can say is, "It's not me." I view clapping as an expression of emotion - and I'm simply not someone comfortable expressing emotion - especially publicly. If the whole congregation begins clapping, my tendency is to put my hands into my pockets. :)

Is it "wrong?" I doubt it.
Would I prohibit it if given the power to do so? I doubt it.
Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes.
Are my feelings on this an accurate gauge of right and wrong w/r to this? I doubt it. :)

Doctrine according to DerSchweik:

Clapping, raising hands and arms in prayer, dancing, etc. and yada yada yada, while not explicitly prohibited in Scripture, shall not be expected of me, tho others may frolic in same.
Fuddy Duddy 3:1ff

and,
Clapping is for good performances by actors and musicians - - and of course - for turning lamps off and on. :)
Old Fart 1:18

[DerSchweik]

I appreciate your thoughts, I wonder if I am worrying over nothing here ;)I was perhaps too "tongue in cheek" in my last response so I apologize, Tim.

I guess my feelings on this are as you - clapping (as well as dancing, swaying, waving arms, etc. etc.) makes me very uncomfortable so I won't do it. But I know of no scriptural precedent for NOT doing any of this.

I get very uncomfortable and sometimes even embarrassed for visitors who come to services where there's a lot of overt display of emotions. I think most visitors are very uncomfortable with this - particularly in the US.

I'm probably a lot like Michal who resented David's dancing on his way into Jerusalem and thought it inappropriate. Her resentment was improper, but I am tempted similarly when others take up clapping or other forms of emotional expression in church. I don't let it become resentment, but it's just not me, not my personality.

I don't even like standing during most songs. Some songs I do and think we SHOULD stand for (e.g. Battle Hymn of the Republic, etc.), but usually I prefer sitting.

[bling]

Is there a problem with us because we lack emotion during worship? I preached at an all black congregation and they really got into it. We wanted them to move in with the mostly white congregation, because they were small 50 people. It was hard for the much smaller black and the mostly white congregation to merge, but they did and for the sake of the black brethren we had a lot of AMENS, clapping and moving around. That congregation grew rapidly and looked like salt and pepper 50-50 in the audience 700+. The black song leader was fantastic.

[crawfish]

In my hometown, there are two decent sized CofC's (>400 members). When the more progressive one adopted a modern worship format, with a worship team (or, as my dad says, "a choir"), about 50-100 moved to the more conservative one - my home church, where my dad is an elder. Clapping NEVER happened in my church - when you weren't singing, you could hear crickets chirping in the audience.

I attended one Sunday a few months after this happened. I was shocked when, after a baptism, about 50-100 people started clapping. Presumably those who'd transferred. I asked my dad about it at lunch - he got this tense look on his face, and said "I don't like it, but there's nothing against it scripturally."

I suppose this is the slippery slope you're talking about - as some churches get more progressive, it pulls the others ones up a notch. :D

[Molal]

If it's a slippery slope, where is it that you're afraid you'll end up?
Hi holo,

I suppose my concern is that it gets into 'doing a little jig' in the pew such as swaying, waving hands and arms around, etc.

I know, it sounds pendantic but it does concern me.

[Molal]

All I can say is, "It's not me." I view clapping as an expression of emotion - and I'm simply not someone comfortable expressing emotion - especially publicly. If the whole congregation begins clapping, my tendency is to put my hands into my pockets. :)

Is it "wrong?" I doubt it.
Would I prohibit it if given the power to do so? I doubt it.
Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes.
Are my feelings on this an accurate gauge of right and wrong w/r to this? I doubt it. :)

Doctrine according to DerSchweik:

and,

I appreciate your thoughts, I wonder if I am worrying over nothing here ;)

[Molal]

In my hometown, there are two decent sized CofC's (>400 members). When the more progressive one adopted a modern worship format, with a worship team (or, as my dad says, "a choir"), about 50-100 moved to the more conservative one - my home church, where my dad is an elder. Clapping NEVER happened in my church - when you weren't singing, you could hear crickets chirping in the audience.

I attended one Sunday a few months after this happened. I was shocked when, after a baptism, about 50-100 people started clapping. Presumably those who'd transferred. I asked my dad about it at lunch - he got this tense look on his face, and said "I don't like it, but there's nothing against it scripturally."

I suppose this is the slippery slope you're talking about - as some churches get more progressive, it pulls the others ones up a notch. :D
Thanks for your thoughts crawfish.

I like your last sentence - made me laugh!

[cremi]

So, am I right to feel uncomfortable? Yes, as long as you realize it's only about your feeling uncomfortable and has absolutley nothing to do with how others worship. You should not feel like you have to clap, but you also should not expect others to be stoic if they want to clap as part of their worship to God. Do you think that clapping is a slippery slope?To what? Losing one's salvation? Instrumental music?

I would say no to both.

[crawfish]

Yes, as long as you realize it's only about your feeling uncomfortable and has absolutley nothing to do with how others worship. You should not feel like you have to clap, but you also should not expect others to be stoic if they want to clap as part of their worship to God. To what? Losing one's salvation? Instrumental music?

I would say no to both.

When I first started at my current church, I was VERY uncomfortable. The worship team, the music displayed onscreen (and no mention of song numbers), the "flowing" worship style - but the thing that made me the most uncomfortable was the scattered hand raisers/wavers in the crowd. 15 years later, I still don't raise my hands, but it doesn't bother me anymore.

[jmacvols]

I attend a church of Christ where singing is acapella. Occasionally, someone will start to clap (usually the teens) and some, but not all, of the congregation will follow.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this. For me , I feel uncomfortable with clapping during worship; however, I am unable to provide any biblical reasoning for this feeling, this does not mean; however, that it doesn't exist.

All God authorized was singing.

So, am I right to feel uncomfortable? Do you think that clapping is a slippery slope?


Yes, it's going out of the boundaries God has set. After going beyond God's boundary one enters an open area, a free-for-all where anything goes, guided by opinion and feelings.

[holo]

Hi holo,

I suppose my concern is that it gets into 'doing a little jig' in the pew such as swaying, waving hands and arms around, etc.

I know, it sounds pendantic but it does concern me.Nah, don't worry about sounding pedantic. But say some got into "a little jig" - would that be a problem? If so, why? Is it just that you personally aren't comfortable with that type of behaviour, or do you think God has something against it?

[Molal]

Nah, don't worry about sounding pedantic. But say some got into "a little jig" - would that be a problem? If so, why? Is it just that you personally aren't comfortable with that type of behaviour, or do you think God has something against it?
Personally, I am against that behaviour - but, as a scientist, I always analyze my positions and so when I ask myself, why am I against that behaviour I find that I have no real basis.

Yet, it seems that a tradition, at least in the C0C, is that no-one claps, sways, etc. The argument is that God only authorized singing, as used my jmacvols in post 12.

I'm just looking for thoughts, bible verses, etc.

[cremi]

I'm not currently attending an acapella coC, but when I did and I had small children I had to hold while singing and standing, I often found myself swaying. It had more to do with shifting the extra weight I was holding on to at the moment than it did with worshipping or offending other brothers/sisters.

I would have been apalled if someone had reproached me for swaying.

While I'm not upset with the current discussion, I confess that I don't understand the mindset. As it has been pointed out, culturally, even here in America, acapella churches of Christ can and do look very different during worship. I think it's fair to ask if you would condemn those same brothers and sisters, even though you share the same beliefs, simply because they move more during worship.

Does that make sense?

[jmacvols]

Who are we to say that we are doing things the right way and they are not?


This is the open area "free-for-all" mentality when people cross the borders God has set....no matter what one drags into worship it cannot be condemned.

They seem to have a sincerity and passion for worship that Americans rarely match. If justification is truly found in one's heart, then I feel like a spiritual dwarf compared to such people.

It's all in vain if not done as God directed..will worship, people worship according their own will not God's. Justification before God can only be found in obedience to His will, not our own will.

[Zilam]

How about this....If it glorifies God, then do it. If it doesn't glorify God, then don't do it? Why should it matter if you dance, clap, prostrate, etc while doing praise? Don't worry about what others think. You are praising only One. Worry about what He thinks.

[spamking]

I attended an AofG church until I was about 12 or 13 when my parents decided to start attending a local CofC with some other family members. I attended that small church (~125 people) until I graduated from college and my wife and I moved from Oklahoma to Arizona and then to New Mexico.

We attended various CofC's throughout or time out west and have seen noticeable differences in the various congregations.

I'm not mister emotional dude during worship either, but I was shocked when we moved back to Oklahoma at how "lifeless" the praise and worship CofC's we attended were compared to those in NM. This lead us to start attending a local Christian Church that had awesome musical instrument lead praise and worship. We basically felt it was just like our previous CofC but with musical instruments. Our first Sunday was a little difficult to deal with since it had been years for me (and never for my wife) to be in such a setting.

Ultimately we adjusted and both felt right at home. However, we recently moved and are in the middle of trying to find a church home in Edmond, Oklahoma. We've visited a couple of CofC's, a non-denominational church, a Christian church and a baptist church. I never dreamed it would be so difficult for my wife and I to agree on a church. She wants to go back to a more traditional CofC and I'm more in the Christian church mode.

So while I've seen the gambit of emotions in a church service (including an AofG preacher running around the sanctuary, to several members of a CofC getting up and leaving when a preacher asked a question of the congregation and a woman actually answering it, to feeling like I had just walked out of a rock concert) I can't fault people for clapping. In fact, I find it an awesome show of appreciation and support when they clap after a baptism or an announcement of a 60th wedding anniversary being celebrated or even the announcement of new members.

Sorry for rambling . . .

[crawfish]

Welcome to spamking, btw...he's my buddy from another board.

[bling]

Personally, I am against that behaviour - but, as a scientist, I always analyze my positions and so when I ask myself, why am I against that behaviour I find that I have no real basis.

Yet, it seems that a tradition, at least in the C0C, is that no-one claps, sways, etc. The argument is that God only authorized singing, as used my jmacvols in post 12.

I'm just looking for thoughts, bible verses, etc.

I am getting a little upset with this. If clapping hands is a slippery slope then our Black COC brothers have been on that slope for 100 years. They raise there hands sway with the music, shout “Amen Brother”, “Preach on”, “Praise God”, etc. are they all hell bound? Have you ever attended a COC worship service in Europe, some do exchange the “Holy Kiss” and really show a lot of Love?
The Bible says nothing about standing to sing, using a toning fork to get the right pitch, using song books, having a mike or what you do with your hands.
How are you planning to merge with your black brethren down the street?

[Molal]

I am getting a little upset with this. If clapping hands is a slippery slope then our Black COC brothers have been on that slope for 100 years. They raise there hands sway with the music, shout “Amen Brother”, “Preach on”, “Praise God”, etc. are they all hell bound? Have you ever attended a COC worship service in Europe, some do exchange the “Holy Kiss” and really show a lot of Love?
The Bible says nothing about standing to sing, using a toning fork to get the right pitch, using song books, having a mike or what you do with your hands.
How are you planning to merge with your black brethren down the street?
Bling,

I'm just asking for some ideas, suggestions, advice, etc. There is absolutely no need to get upset.

[crawfish]

Bling,

I'm just asking for some ideas, suggestions, advice, etc. There is absolutely no need to get upset.

He does have an excellent point, though. So much of how we worship is cultural - and since we come from a white, conservative, puritan/protestant background, we are most comfortable with sitting on our hands in service quietly. Not everybody is going to be comfortable - or satisfied - with that environment. I've seen it drive people away from the CofC.

A friend who was a missionary in Africa told me of the congregation he visited - about 300 people, some of whom woke before dawn and walked hours to get there. They would swing,sway, sing, yell and dance as they worshiped the Lord, for hours and hours and hours. Their service lasted the better part of the day, and the early risers would often end up walking home in the dark. Who are we to say that we are doing things the right way and they are not? They seem to have a sincerity and passion for worship that Americans rarely match. If justification is truly found in one's heart, then I feel like a spiritual dwarf compared to such people.

[crawfish]

How do you know if what you are doing is "glorifying" God? The only way to "glorify" God is by doing what He said to do.

According to 1 Cor. 10:31, I am to glorify God in WHATEVER I do. It doesn't tell me that I only glorify God in certain things that I am instructed to do.

Again, you don't address the cultural issue. If I was a missionary to a certain culture, and their singing involved a lot of physical movement (and no ties to any other religion, I should add), would I be right in telling them they had to stop?

[bling]

These things do not add to what God said when He said sing, they only aid in singing.
Does clapping and swaying help keep you or others in rythem?

[holo]

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings.

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked?Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that... :)

Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves?Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back :)

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

[jmacvols]

The Bible says nothing about standing to sing, using a toning fork to get the right pitch, using song books, having a mike or what you do with your hands.


These things do not add to what God said when He said sing, they only aid in singing.

[spamking]

He does have an excellent point, though. So much of how we worship is cultural - and since we come from a white, conservative, puritan/protestant background, we are most comfortable with sitting on our hands in service quietly. Not everybody is going to be comfortable - or satisfied - with that environment. I've seen it drive people away from the CofC.




That's exactly what I struggle with. I'm not comfortable with everyone doing this :clap:but I don't want to be sitting with a bunch of folks who are basically :sleep: either.

[spamking]

How about this....If it glorifies God, then do it. If it doesn't glorify God, then don't do it? Why should it matter if you dance, clap, prostrate, etc while doing praise? Don't worry about what others think. You are praising only One. Worry about what He thinks.


Not a bad way to look at it at all . . . :thumbsup:

[crawfish]

Welcome to spamking, btw...he's my buddy from another board.

[Molal]

Welcome spamking - let me know if there is anything I help you with, etc.

I think you will enjoy CF - lots of different opinions and viewpoints.

Molal

[spamking]

Thanks . . . I've already spent way more time on here than I had planned to. This place is a great resource.

[jmacvols]

How about this....If it glorifies God, then do it. If it doesn't glorify God, then don't do it? Why should it matter if you dance, clap, prostrate, etc while doing praise? Don't worry about what others think. You are praising only One. Worry about what He thinks.

How do you know if what you are doing is "glorifying" God? The only way to "glorify" God is by doing what He said to do.

[Molal]

Thanks . . . I've already spent way more time on here than I had planned to. This place is a great resource.
I have learnt alot here - particular from DRA, crawfish DerSchweik.

I enjoy the theological challenge!

Molal

[Molal]

How do you know if what you are doing is "glorifying" God? The only way to "glorify" God is by doing what He said to do.
I suppose one should ask what verses can be interpreted to include clapping, swaying etc?

If the scriptureis silent on this issue, should we do those things? But, do we have freedom to clap, sway, etc.? How do we determine where this freedom ends where scripture is silent?

[bling]

He does have an excellent point, though. So much of how we worship is cultural - and since we come from a white, conservative, puritan/protestant background, we are most comfortable with sitting on our hands in service quietly. Not everybody is going to be comfortable - or satisfied - with that environment. I've seen it drive people away from the CofC.

A friend who was a missionary in Africa told me of the congregation he visited - about 300 people, some of whom woke before dawn and walked hours to get there. They would swing,sway, sing, yell and dance as they worshiped the Lord, for hours and hours and hours. Their service lasted the better part of the day, and the early risers would often end up walking home in the dark. Who are we to say that we are doing things the right way and they are not? They seem to have a sincerity and passion for worship that Americans rarely match. If justification is truly found in one's heart, then I feel like a spiritual dwarf compared to such people.
That is the major part of my concern.

[jmacvols]

According to 1 Cor. 10:31, I am to glorify God in WHATEVER I do. It doesn't tell me that I only glorify God in certain things that I am instructed to do.

The question is this; is one glorifying God when they are not doing as God has directed? No one can glorify God while acting in disobedience to His will.

Again, you don't address the cultural issue. If I was a missionary to a certain culture, and their singing involved a lot of physical movement (and no ties to any other religion, I should add), would I be right in telling them they had to stop?

I don't know what you mean by "physical movements", dancing maybe?
What if it were part of their culture that the women are topless, should they be taught to stop this?

[jmacvols]

I suppose one should ask what verses can be interpreted to include clapping, swaying etc?

If the scriptureis silent on this issue, should we do those things? But, do we have freedom to clap, sway, etc.? How do we determine where this freedom ends where scripture is silent?


Yes, if God is silent about it then we should not do it. God does not have to say 'thou shalt not"' do this or that, all God has to say is do 'this' and that eliminates us doing other things.

[bling]

How do you know if what you are doing is "glorifying" God? The only way to "glorify" God is by doing what He said to do.

Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and energy and loving other, brings Glory to God. If you are being a priest, offering yourself up on the alter you carry around, at the temple then you are glorifying God. If what you are doing is in obedience to God’s commands: such as edifying others, praising God, being joyful, sharing in the joy of other brothers/sisters, comforting others, and trying to help others overcome their sorrows of the past, then you are bringing glory to God.

[bling]

The question is this; is one glorifying God when they are not doing as God has directed? No one can glorify God while acting in disobedience to His will.



I don't know what you mean by "physical movements", dancing maybe?
What if it were part of their culture that the women are topless, should they be taught to stop this?

One of my African friend said early on in his ministry, they gave a new convert a sheet to use for her baptism and sent her off to change when she came out she had wrapped around her waste leaving her breast exposed. None of the Africans at the time saw anything wrong and he went on and baptized her.

[jmacvols]

Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and energy and loving other, brings Glory to God. If you are being a priest, offering yourself up on the alter you carry around, at the temple then you are glorifying God. If what you are doing is in obedience to God’s commands: such as edifying others, praising God, being joyful, sharing in the joy of other brothers/sisters, comforting others, and trying to help others overcome their sorrows of the past, then you are bringing glory to God.


But what does "loving God" require of us?
Jn 14:15,21; Jn 15:10.

If we love God we show it by keeping His commandments. Is one loving God if he is not keeping God's commandments....if he is going beyond what God has commanded? If one is not doing what God has commanded, is what he doing then being done in spirit and in truth?

[jmacvols]

One of my African friend said early on in his ministry, they gave a new convert a sheet to use for her baptism and sent her off to change when she came out she had wrapped around her waste leaving her breast exposed. None of the Africans at the time saw anything wrong and he went on and baptized her.


So culture, not God's word, determines morals?

[holo]

But what does "loving God" require of us?
Jn 14:15,21; Jn 15:10.

If we love God we show it by keeping His commandments. Is one loving God if he is not keeping God's commandments....if he is going beyond what God has commanded? If one is not doing what God has commanded, is what he doing then being done in spirit and in truth?Spirit and truth obviously doesn't have to do with clapping your hands, raising them, or leaving them in your pockets. God hasn't commanded us one particular way to sit or stand in a meeting. No wonder, as such regulations have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the new covenant :)

So culture, not God's word, determines morals?It's not about morals, it's only about culture. In some cultures an exposed breast is probably no more offensive than raising your hands is in ours. No doubt you would get a problem if you saw exposed breasts, but that's just because you're a dirty-minded sex-crazed Westerner :D

[jmacvols]

Spirit and truth obviously doesn't have to do with clapping your hands, raising them, or leaving them in your pockets. God hasn't commanded us one particular way to sit or stand in a meeting. No wonder, as such regulations have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the new covenant :)

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).

It's not about morals, it's only about culture. In some cultures an exposed breast is probably no more offensive than raising your hands is in ours. No doubt you would get a problem if you saw exposed breasts, but that's just because you're a dirty-minded sex-crazed Westerner :D

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked? How about fully naked? This has nothing to do with morality? Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves? Gen 2:25 cf Gen 3:7.

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.

[holo]

Spirt and truth have to do with God has said to do. What is truth--thy word is truth and if God's word says sing, then others things (clapping) go beyond his word(truth).Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings. If you're thinking about the "do not forsake the assembly" verse, I can assure you that I'm not forsaking the assembly. But assembling with brothers and sisters in Christ is not synonymous with attending meetings.

So you believe the bible does not condemn women going around half naked?Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that... :)

Why did Adam and Eve sew figs together to cover themselves?Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back :)

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed, Rom 12:2.Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

[crawfish]

The question is this; is one glorifying God when they are not doing as God has directed? No one can glorify God while acting in disobedience to His will.

But that's not what you said. You implied that you could only glorify God by doing EXACTLY what He told you. Since most of my life is spent doing things God didn't tell me to do, in ways he didn't authorize - I work on a computer, drive a car, watch football, etc. - does that mean I cannot glorify God in those things?

I don't know what you mean by "physical movements", dancing maybe?

Sure. In some cultures, dancing is as intimately associated with singing as songbooks are to CofC's. One simply does not stand still and sing.

What if it were part of their culture that the women are topless, should they be taught to stop this?

Not necessarily. For our culture, topless is sexual and immodest; in some tribal cultures it is so common as to be unremarkable. If and when those cultures join the "civilized" world, they will conform to its habits. But why introduce new sin and shame in a place where it didn't exist before?

It's a mistake to define the eternal by our immediate culture. What is modest today would be immodest 50 years ago. What is acceptable today may not be acceptable here in 50 more years. And, the way we do things today that seems so right would be foreign to the members of the first century church.

[jmacvols]

Yes, but God hasn't told me to sing, or that I shouldn't clap in a meeting. He hasn't even told me to attend meetings. If you're thinking about the "do not forsake the assembly" verse, I can assure you that I'm not forsaking the assembly. But assembling with brothers and sisters in Christ is not synonymous with attending meetings.

Singing is commanded. When God says to sing, that eliminates doing anything else per the law of inclusion and exclusion. And we are not to forsake the assemby.

Correct. The bible doesn't say that. Not that it needs to, either, because unlike Israel under the old covenant, or sinners in general, we're not in a relationship with God that revolves around our clothing or lack thereof, or any other such thing.

Shamefacedness is a sin.

There's nothing in the bible condemning meat or wine either, but both things would be sinful to someone who partakes of it "with offense", as Paul puts it.

The bible does not approve social drinking.

If you should run completely out of common sense to the degree that you go to church naked, there's still the Holy Spirit, tasked with guiding and teaching you. I dunno why you would have to look for a bible verse about stuff like that... :)

Because they were ashamed. They were the prototype of humans being "in Adam", to use Paul's words again. I, however, am not in Adam, and neither the clothes on my back nor any other thing I do, wear, think, say or make is motivated by shame. Jesus took all my shame on the cross, and I'm not going to claim it back :)

Nakedness is a sin. Man even has laws against "indecent exposure".

Exactly! This world is hung up on details and trying to please God through religious exercise, like bowing in a certain direction when they pray, or eating only certain types of food, or -indeed- making up regulations on hand clapping in church. As if that's what God is after.

Paul told Timothy to "take heed to the doctrine", which is the opposite of what you say above. What you say above is going by opinion and feelings. As long as one agrees with your opinions and feelings, that person is OK with you?

[spamking]

God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?

Do all that you do to the glory of God . . . all. Not just this or that, but all. God asks for us to love and worship Him. I think we are able to bring glory to Him in every aspect of our lives.

Well, except for snoring maybe . . . it might not bug God, but it bugs my wife. ;)

[Izdaari]

We very often clap along with songs in my church, and sometimes the worship leader encourages us to. We often raise up hands too, and sometimes we even dance. But my church is AoG, a much different tradition from CoC. So long as you're praising God in a way that works for you, it's all good! :clap:

[HisLittleHazelnut]

double post

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I grew up CofC.

Here's my take on clapping:

God gave you hands. Hands can clap. Hands need nothing more than your own body making them clap... no instrument needed (not that I am against instruments, mind you.) If you want to clap, clap to the glory of God.

[spamking]

It's just really odd sometimes to sing "I stand and lift up my hands" sitting down . . . I don't necessarily lift up my hands, but most of the time the entire congregation will stand.

Our culture views clapping as a celebratory act, or an act of approval. Much like an "Amen!" from the congregation IMO.

Would God not want us to celebrate our relationship with Him?

Would God not want us to "celebrate" during worship?

As far as culture determining morals vs. the word of God goes, while I think they are related I think you can have morals, but not necessarily be a Christian. IMO it isn't the churches responsibility to play "morals police", the church is here to spread the word of God to the world. Following the teachings of Christ will definitely lead to a good moral life, but consider this. We don't worship the same way our grandparents did and more than likely our grandchildren will worship differently than we do. Cultures change. But God never will.

[jmacvols]

But that's not what you said. You implied that you could only glorify God by doing EXACTLY what He told you. Since most of my life is spent doing things God didn't tell me to do, in ways he didn't authorize - I work on a computer, drive a car, watch football, etc. - does that mean I cannot glorify God in those things?

If one is not doing what God said then he is sinning, sin is transgression of God's law, so is one gloryfying God by not doing what God has said? In what way is working on a computer transgressing God's law? I am working on a computer now on christianforums. I have been commanded to go to all the world and teach the gospel, I was not told specifically how to go, that is a matter of expediency, but I am going by computer right now.



Sure. In some cultures, dancing is as intimately associated with singing as songbooks are to CofC's. One simply does not stand still and sing.

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.



Not necessarily. For our culture, topless is sexual and immodest; in some tribal cultures it is so common as to be unremarkable. If and when those cultures join the "civilized" world, they will conform to its habits. But why introduce new sin and shame in a place where it didn't exist before?

Sin does not exist in some places?? Are people in the "uncivilized" places saved apart from God's word, the gospel?

It's a mistake to define the eternal by our immediate culture. What is modest today would be immodest 50 years ago. What is acceptable today may not be acceptable here in 50 more years. And, the way we do things today that seems so right would be foreign to the members of the first century church.

You come across as being very fixated on what culture does and wants. Does culture come before and above God's word? Is whats being done now or 50 years ago acceptable with God's word? Does passing of time change what God's has said?

[jmacvols]

I grew up CofC.

Here's my take on clapping:

God gave you hands. Hands can clap. Hands need nothing more than your own body making them clap... no instrument needed (not that I am against instruments, mind you.) If you want to clap, clap to the glory of God.


God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?

[HisLittleHazelnut]

There are verses talking about making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Clapping is a noise. So is playing a musical instrument. If there is joy in the heart of the one clapping or playing the instrument, would not God be glorified?

I realize this passage is in Psalms, and it is thus "old testament" but if we truly believe the Bible we can't just cut and paste what we want out of each book. I realize that there are things Jesus specifically brought over from the Old covenant and then those that he did not mention, but when it comes to things that are not mentioned in the New covenant, wouldn't you think it was assumed that it was still a proper style of worship? If not, it would have been addressed. In fact, if Jesus wanted to expound on something, he did, for clarification. But the issue of instruments/clapping was not brought up by Jesus or the apostles, so therefore, it must not have been an issue or else it WOULD have been brought up.

Noise isn't just singing, folks.

[Apollos1]

I believe a bit of analysis is in order.

WHY do people applaud? What is the purpose of their applause? And of course the big question... What is the scriptural mandate? -or- Is there a scriptural principle to guide us as far as our conduct during worship?

Departing from my typical style of writing, I will leave you to ponder over such thoughts for now.

Also a departure from that which some readers might expect from me, I want to quote "Miss Manners", a syndicated columnist whose articles appear in many newspapers across the USA once a week, usually on Saturdays.

Miss Manners, when posed with questions in reference to applause in worship, and the inquirer asked if their thoughts against applause were correct, responded...

“Yes, but try and explain that to people who recognize no greater authority than entertainment, and therefore know of no higher show of reverence than applause.”

I say – well said!!!

[bling]

So culture, not God's word, determines morals?

I did not say that at all!
Culture might determine modesty.
On a visit to South Africa there was a group of women walking around in long dresses sleeves, collars and umbrellas. They looked weird on a hot summer day. They where part of a English Church established during the Victorian period and then abandoned by the missionaries. They taught that you must dress modestly and put Western Victorian rules of modesty on them which became part of their religious believes and doctrine.

I had a missionary friend to Thailand that when he first went there was shocked and embarrass by the attire of the Christian women. They wore long dresses with slits up each side so you could see their panties on some. At the men’s business meeting he finial had the courage to talk about it. He said, “We need to talk about our Christian women’s attire!” All the men were happy he finally wanted to bring it up and were relieved he brought the subject up first. They begin by saying how shocked and embarrassed they were about the way his wife dressed. She had actually worn a dress that you could see some cleavage. Only the most risqué women would ware something that showed any part of her upper body and cleavage was way too much.

[holo]

If one is not doing what God said then he is sinning, sin is transgression of God's law, so is one gloryfying God by not doing what God has said?True, but then the believer isn't actually under the law, much less some law that says "thou shalt not clap thine hands".

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.And singing was "ordained by God"? Where did God "ordain" singing in church? Which songs were ordained by God? Does the bible refer to your songbook?

Sin does not exist in some places??It doesn't exist where there is no law. If a person drinks wine without offence, and you manage to convince him that it's sinful, then it will be sin for him.

Are people in the "uncivilized" places saved apart from God's word, the gospel?No, but the gospel isn't "thou shalt not clap" or "thou shalt not expose thine breasts".

Does passing of time change what God's has said?No. So is there a particular reason you don't dance like a madman like king David did? As far as I know, God has never un-ordained that. Same goes for eating locusts and quoting pagan greek philosophers etc.

[holo]

God gave us everything we have and we are to use those things as He would have us, we are not to abuse those things by doing or not doing what God has said. If God did not ask for clapping, would clapping bring glory to Him? or in other words, is doing something God has not asked for bring glory to Him? If so, how?So what exactly has God asked for, do you think?

What makes you think that a God who decided to come here as a man, washed the feet of his often ignorant disciples, died slowly and stark naked on a cross, a God who gave Himself for you while you were still a sinner, a God who looks to the heart, a God who uses the love evil people have for their children to illuminate the love He (who IS LOVE) has for His children, a God to whom your rihgteousness is as filthy rags, a God who has already taken your sin as far from you as the east is from the west - should approve or disapprove of your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

[crawfish]

Also a departure from that which some readers might expect from me, I want to quote "Miss Manners", a syndicated columnist whose articles appear in many newspapers across the USA once a week, usually on Saturdays.

Miss Manners, when posed with questions in reference to applause in worship, and the inquirer asked if their thoughts against applause were correct, responded...

“Yes, but try and explain that to people who recognize no greater authority than entertainment, and therefore know of no higher show of reverence than applause.”

I say – well said!!!

I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

There is a story I heard from a guy visiting a church of Christ. The minister got up to deliver the sermon, and he delivered in the most dry, monotone message the guy had ever heard. He found it difficult to stay awake to - and, looking around and the congregation, it seemed that he wasn't the only one.

After service, he told his buddy that the minister should take a speaking class - perhaps go to Toastmasters to learn a better delivery. His buddy said that the guy was actually a great speaker - he was a popular retired college professor and had spoken at events all over the country.

Then why, the guy asked, did he deliver such a boring monologue? Easy, his friend said. The minister was afraid that if his sermon was interesting that would constitute entertainment. :D

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Sonbooks add nothing to singing, they are an aid, they get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics, so things are done decently and in order. Dancing is adding to what God said, no where did God authorize for the church to sing and dance. The and dance part was added by men.



So David wasn't "dancing before the Lord" as it states in Scripture, but rather dancing for some other reason? Now tell me, why would it use the term "dancing before the Lord" if he wasn't truly doing that? Also, since it's not listed as something we SHOULDN'T do as a Christian... why do you beat up on it?

I understand things like the OT saying 'eye for an eye' but Jesus taught against that and clarified what he expected of His followers. As far as worshiping God goes? Yes, singing is involved. But other forms are not expressly said to be wrong? If you claim to want to do things "just the way the Christians did in the 1st Century" that means you will neither ADD to Scripture nor take away from it. And in saying that God never condoned clapping/instruments/dance as proper worship towards Him during the New Covenant is not right to do, because the truth of the matter is His people worshiped Him in those ways before, and there is nothing expressly written that we cannot do them now.

Where things are expressly condoned, do them.
Where things are expressly taught against, don't do them.
Where things are a little grey, and the New Testament is unclear and/or hasn't brought them up at all, and it might cause you to stumble, fine, don't do them... but if they're fine for someone else to do with a clear conscience, don't beat them up over it. At the same time, if they know it causes you to stumble, they shouldn't do it around you. But to say point-blank that it's wrong for ANYONE to do these things in my opinion is adding to what the Scriptures actually teach, thus negating the whole purpose of what you stand for.

[Apollos1]

Crawfish - I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

Ok - tell me what it means to you. Then tell me what it means to God.

As for those who think applause is a "joyful noise", give me some context....okay? (I prefer firecrackers myself - these drive away the evil spirits...)

[crawfish]

Crawfish - I think both of you have a fairly narrow view of what it means to applaud.

Ok - tell me what it means to you. Then tell me what it means to God.

As for those who think applause is a "joyful noise", give me some context....okay? (I prefer firecrackers myself - these drive away the evil spirits...)

It can be a means of honoring somebody - such as in a graduation ceremony.

It is a means of expressing agreement or support, in the same way as shouting "amen".

It is a means of keeping rhythm and of expressing your feelings as you sing and participate in music.

God looks at the heart. Read the SOTM; you'll note that the strict following of the law is meaningless if the intention behind it is not right. When I applaud, God knows if I'm doing it for the "right" or "wrong" reasons.

Again, this is a cultural issue. While 50 years ago it was considered crass behavior and would NOT be appropriate for worship, it is the norm today and is.

[jmacvols]

There are verses talking about making a joyful noise unto the Lord. Clapping is a noise. So is playing a musical instrument. If there is joy in the heart of the one clapping or playing the instrument, would not God be glorified?

I realize this passage is in Psalms, and it is thus "old testament" but if we truly believe the Bible we can't just cut and paste what we want out of each book. I realize that there are things Jesus specifically brought over from the Old covenant and then those that he did not mention, but when it comes to things that are not mentioned in the New covenant, wouldn't you think it was assumed that it was still a proper style of worship? If not, it would have been addressed. In fact, if Jesus wanted to expound on something, he did, for clarification. But the issue of instruments/clapping was not brought up by Jesus or the apostles, so therefore, it must not have been an issue or else it WOULD have been brought up.

Noise isn't just singing, folks.

As you pointed out, you're taking your argument from the OT. Christ took the OT out of the way and it is not binding upon Christians today, Christ's NT is binding. The NT authorizes us to sing, nothing more, we are not to go beyond what is written, 1 Cor 4:6. One cannot go back to the OT and pick and choose what they like and ignore what they do not like, [Psa 66:13-15]. The Galatians went back to the OT law to practice circumcision, Paul told them for going back to the OT, they had fallen from grace and were debtors to keep the whole law, Gal 5:1ff.

[jmacvols]

I did not say that at all!
Culture might determine modesty.
On a visit to South Africa there was a group of women walking around in long dresses sleeves, collars and umbrellas. They looked weird on a hot summer day. They where part of a English Church established during the Victorian period and then abandoned by the missionaries. They taught that you must dress modestly and put Western Victorian rules of modesty on them which became part of their religious believes and doctrine.

I had a missionary friend to Thailand that when he first went there was shocked and embarrass by the attire of the Christian women. They wore long dresses with slits up each side so you could see their panties on some. At the men’s business meeting he finial had the courage to talk about it. He said, “We need to talk about our Christian women’s attire!” All the men were happy he finally wanted to bring it up and were relieved he brought the subject up first. They begin by saying how shocked and embarrassed they were about the way his wife dressed. She had actually worn a dress that you could see some cleavage. Only the most risqué women would ware something that showed any part of her upper body and cleavage was way too much.


You say culture might determine modesty, should it?

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

[jmacvols]

True, but then the believer isn't actually under the law, much less some law that says "thou shalt not clap thine hands".

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing. God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else. We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6. God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.

And singing was "ordained by God"? Where did God "ordain" singing in church? Which songs were ordained by God? Does the bible refer to your songbook?

Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.

It doesn't exist where there is no law.

But a law does exists, God's law.

If a person drinks wine without offence, and you manage to convince him that it's sinful, then it will be sin for him.

The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence

No, but the gospel isn't "thou shalt not clap" or "thou shalt not expose thine breasts".

The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.

No. So is there a particular reason you don't dance like a madman like king David did? As far as I know, God has never un-ordained that. Same goes for eating locusts and quoting pagan greek philosophers etc.

I don't dance like David as I don't offer animal sacrifices like David, Psa 66:13-15. Christ took the OT out of the way, [Col 2:14, Heb 8] so David is not an example of NT worship.

[jmacvols]

So what exactly has God asked for, do you think?

Sing.

What makes you think that a God who decided to come here as a man, washed the feet of his often ignorant disciples, died slowly and stark naked on a cross, a God who gave Himself for you while you were still a sinner, a God who looks to the heart, a God who uses the love evil people have for their children to illuminate the love He (who IS LOVE) has for His children, a God to whom your rihgteousness is as filthy rags, a God who has already taken your sin as far from you as the east is from the west - should approve or disapprove of your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

Jn 4:24 God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. THis eliminiates me worshipping God as I like but worship Him as He has directed. From Col 3:17 the phrase "in the nems of the Lord, means doing as He has authorized. Unforunately many have tried to make worship entertaining to themselves, it is "human centered and not God honoring".

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/philippians_31ff_regulated_worship

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/is_christian_worship_regulated_by_new_testament_law

[HisLittleHazelnut]

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing. God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else. We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6. God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.



Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.



But a law does exists, God's law.



The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offence



The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.



I don't dance like David as I don't offer animal sacrifices like David, Psa 66:13-15. Christ took the OT out of the way, [Col 2:14, Heb 8] so David is not an example of NT worship.
Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.
Paul brought up singing as a command. But there was no command against anything accompanying the singing.

[bling]

You say culture might determine modesty, should it?

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

God seems to avoid the problems that would result from Him dictating a particular culture dress. Every culture that I know of has an understanding of “modesty”, if you are immodest you are trying to arouse sexual emotions in others to be fleshly sexually attractive. That seems to be the definition scripture uses for immodest (dress or behavior). Did the fig leaves or the skins cover Eve’s breasts? Was Jesus sinning by being naked on the cross? Think of all the exceptions God would have to address if He gave us specific attire that we must wear. I have worked as or with the mental hospitals, retirement homes, doctors, emergency workers, rescue workers, and children, so what is modest dress in those situations. God wants us to be modest in our dress, but has not defined specifically the clothing for modest dress.
Do we just hate to think?
Do we love to follow rules and not have freedom?
If we can not determine what is “modest” for a particular time, place and group of people, how are we going to resolve; “how we should Love”? Or who is a brother?

[bling]

I like your story, if people are doing wrong then they should be taught properly. Many won't agree with me on this, but if one is not offering his best to the Lord, he should be taught that he should.

Who in the story was doing wrong???

[jmacvols]

Christ said himself that he had not come to abolish (to take away) the Law but rather to fulfill it. To abolish and to fulfill are two entirely different things. Abolishing means to take away whatever used to be. According to your argument, we had pretty much not have the OT in our Bibles. Psalms is outside of the Law, the Law meaning the Pentateuch. Jesus fulfilled the Pentateuch and the Prophets, but he said nothing about how to praise him. He did not once mention singing. Nor did he mention instruments or clapping. But neither did he specifically exclude any of these things.
Paul brought up singing as a command. But there was no command against anything accompanying the singing.

Col 2:14 "took it out of the way"
Christ took the OT out of the way by not by destroying it but by fulfillment...when Christ fulfilled it, that took it out of the way. If Christ has not fulfilled the OT, all of it is still binding upon us today.

In Jn 10:34, Jesus in a discourse with the Jews said "it is not written in your law, 'I said ye are gods'"? Jesus is quoting from Psalms 82:6 calling Psalms "law". All the OT can be considered law. Is Psalms 66:13-15 binding today?

Doing anything in addition to singing is not singing as Paul said, it would be singing plus something else.

[jmacvols]

God seems to avoid the problems that would result from Him dictating a particular culture dress. Every culture that I know of has an understanding of “modesty”, if you are immodest you are trying to arouse sexual emotions in others to be fleshly sexually attractive. That seems to be the definition scripture uses for immodest (dress or behavior). Did the fig leaves or the skins cover Eve’s breasts? Was Jesus sinning by being naked on the cross? Think of all the exceptions God would have to address if He gave us specific attire that we must wear. I have worked as or with the mental hospitals, retirement homes, doctors, emergency workers, rescue workers, and children, so what is modest dress in those situations. God wants us to be modest in our dress, but has not defined specifically the clothing for modest dress.
Do we just hate to think?
Do we love to follow rules and not have freedom?
If we can not determine what is “modest” for a particular time, place and group of people, how are we going to resolve; “how we should Love”? Or who is a brother?

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

[jmacvols]

Who in the story was doing wrong???

I would say the women who were wearing revealing clothing and the men for being afraid to say anything about it.

[holo]

God said to sing, that rules out everything but singing.No, of course it doesn't. God didn't ordain you to use the internet either.

God does not have to say "thou shalt not clap". It's the law of inclusion and exlusion, when God said sing that includes singing and excludes anything else.No, there's no such law, and even if there was, we wouldn't be subject to it. God has certainly not given us such a law.

We're not to go beyond that which is written, 1 Cor 4:6.You're applying that verse in an extremely creative manner which is not at all in line with the rest of what the bible teaches. For example, that God looks to the heart. Or that we are not under the law, but yet you've made up a law, about clapping, of all things!

God did not have to make a long list of things not to do, He simply says what to do and that eliminates everything else. An example that has been used on this topic before. You tell a mechanic to change the oil and oil filter in your car. Three hours later you return to get your car and the mechanic hands you a bill for $3000.00. You look at the itemized bill and see where he changed the oil and oil filter, but he also changed the tires, brakes, rotors, spark plugs, filters, pumps etc, etc. Are you obligated to pay the $3000.00? No, for all you authorized was an oil and oil filter change, everything else the mechanic did was done without your authorization. You did not have to make a long, long list of everything the mechanic was not to do, you just authorized him what you want and that eliminates him doing anything other than what you authorized.We're not God's mechanics, we are His children.

Do you have kids? Have you ordained a special way for them to honour you? Can they only give you drawings that don't contain the colour green, for example, or else you won't accept it?

Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. A songbook aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God said which is 'sing'.Clapping aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God has said which is 'sing".

But a law does exists, God's law.Yes, and we aren't under it. We are dead to it. The law is the power of sin. So since we are free from the law, we are also free from sin. You can still try to live according to the law, of course, if you want. But you will only find that the law is still the power of sin, and that when the commandment comes, sin springs to life, and you end up condemned.

The bible condemns drunkeness...social drinking is with offenceIt is to some. Others will take offense if you don't drink. For example, it's custom in a lot of southern european countries to serve a little liqour before the food, or wine that goes with it. Refusing it is offensive to the host.

If it is sin to you, then it is sin to you.

The NT authorizes only singing, not clapping and it condemns nakedness/shamefacedness.The NT doesn't authorize stuff. The NT isn't a law book. It's a testament. It's the gospel accounts, it's the gospel revealed, it's personal letter with teaching from Paul and Peter etc, as well as prophesies. It is not some sort of rule book. If you read it as a rule book, you're reading it completely wrong. And if it was a rule book, it would be the most unclear and least sensible and hard to dechipher rule book ever written.

[holo]

Sing.And He won't accept anything else...? Are you for real? Why is it you think God is so weird about stuff like that? Jesus compared God to earthly fathers and said "even if you who are evil know to give your children good things..." - but yet, you apparently believe that God has these weird quirks about singing and clapping. It doesn't figure, and it certainly doesn't resemble any kind of father/child relationship known to man. It looks more like a psychopatic dictators demands from his subjects, like when Chairman Mao ordered peasants to rip the grass out of the ground.

Jn 4:24 God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. THis eliminiates me worshipping God as I like but worship Him as He has directed.Neither "Spirit" nor "truth" are synonymous with "song". There is certainly no Spirit or truth in reducing worship to some sort of religious excercise in fear of offending some funny quirky distant God. How on earth do you reconcile your view of God with the God who came as a man and died naked on a cross? How do you reconcile it with the man who let a whore wash His feet with tears and dry them with her hair?

[holo]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.Do you think that would offend God?

[Molal]

I don't want this to turn into flaming, baiting, etc.

After reading the thread, it seems that I should have no personal issue with clapping, etc. during the sermon. I also understand why some people have issue with it, therefore, in those instances it would be good not to aid your brother/sister stumble.

[bling]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.

I will give the person the benefit of the doubt for what they were wearing. How do you think the other priests at the temple would have greeted the fellow priest that showed up late, haft dressed, dirty and bloody, if that priest on his way to the temple, had stopped on the road to help the man that was left half dead, gotten dirty and loaned him half his clothes?

[bling]

I would say the women who were wearing revealing clothing and the men for being afraid to say anything about it.

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I have no argument that people should dress modestly. All I am saying is that in worship to God they should were their best. I think it would be immodest to wear old work clothes to a worship service.
I work third shift, and get off at 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
I wear "old work clothes" to church the weeks I am working because I just got off work and barely have time to eat breakfast before I have to turn around and go to church for the service, which starts at 9:00.

Thus said, you basically called me immodest because I don't have time to change between work and church.

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?
Hah, when I grew up my family's rules were that collars had to go to my chin, and I could only wear ankle length skirts and longs sleeve blouses. If I chose to wear a mid-calf length skirt, I wore boots with it.

And I'm 25.

[jmacvols]

No, of course it doesn't. God didn't ordain you to use the internet either.

I don't use the internet when I sing.

No, there's no such law, and even if there was, we wouldn't be subject to it. God has certainly not given us such a law.

Sure there is, people use it mulitple times everyday. Some just don't want to see it in the bible.

You're applying that verse in an extremely creative manner which is not at all in line with the rest of what the bible teaches. For example, that God looks to the heart. Or that we are not under the law, but yet you've made up a law, about clapping, of all things!

Can you explain what Paul meant when he said not to go beyond that which is written?
I can find in the NT where God said to sing, can you show me where He said to sing and clap?

We're not God's mechanics, we are His children.

Do you have kids? Have you ordained a special way for them to honour you? Can they only give you drawings that don't contain the colour green, for example, or else you won't accept it?

I never said we are God's mechanic, I was showing an example of how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. People use it everyday, yet some choose to ignore it when it comes to the bible.

Clapping aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God has said which is 'sing".

It's an addition. Again, in what verse did God say to sing and clap?

Yes, and we aren't under it. We are dead to it. The law is the power of sin. So since we are free from the law, we are also free from sin. You can still try to live according to the law, of course, if you want. But you will only find that the law is still the power of sin, and that when the commandment comes, sin springs to life, and you end up condemned.

I was referencing the NT law which we are under. If we are not under any law, then there is no such thing as sin.

It is to some. Others will take offense if you don't drink. For example, it's custom in a lot of southern european countries to serve a little liqour before the food, or wine that goes with it. Refusing it is offensive to the host.

If it is sin to you, then it is sin to you.

Drunkeness is a sin for anyone and everyone, it has nothing to do with custom.

The NT doesn't authorize stuff. The NT isn't a law book. It's a testament. It's the gospel accounts, it's the gospel revealed, it's personal letter with teaching from Paul and Peter etc, as well as prophesies. It is not some sort of rule book. If you read it as a rule book, you're reading it completely wrong. And if it was a rule book, it would be the most unclear and least sensible and hard to dechipher rule book ever written.

The NT does contain law, again Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4, where there is no law there is no sin. If we are not under NT law, then there is no such thing as sin today. BUt since there is such a thing as sin today, we are under NT law, James 1:25; Gal 6:2.

[jmacvols]

And He won't accept anything else...? Are you for real? Why is it you think God is so weird about stuff like that? Jesus compared God to earthly fathers and said "even if you who are evil know to give your children good things..." - but yet, you apparently believe that God has these weird quirks about singing and clapping. It doesn't figure, and it certainly doesn't resemble any kind of father/child relationship known to man. It looks more like a psychopatic dictators demands from his subjects, like when Chairman Mao ordered peasants to rip the grass out of the ground.

God didn't accept Nadab and Abihu's sacrifice. Do you really think you can force things on God that He did not ask for?

Neither "Spirit" nor "truth" are synonymous with "song". There is certainly no Spirit or truth in reducing worship to some sort of religious excercise in fear of offending some funny quirky distant God. How on earth do you reconcile your view of God with the God who came as a man and died naked on a cross? How do you reconcile it with the man who let a whore wash His feet with tears and dry them with her hair?


Jn 4:24 says worship must be done in Spirit and in truth. Singing is part of worship, so it must be done is spirit and truth.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/philippians_31ff_regulated_worship

I posted the above link before. God's word is truth, so worship must conform to God's word. As the link states, those that think they can improvise their own worship are innovators, will-worshippers and are not worshpping God in truth.

[jmacvols]

Do you think that would offend God?

A person not offering ther best to God is an offence. So you think people can relegate God to second place in their lives? If one does not have to do his best for God in one area, then he does not have to give his best in any area. One can practice Chrsitianity only when it is convienient, to his own liking and as long as it does not put them to much trouble. Was it an offence to God when people offered less than the best of the flock to God, was offering the lame, sick and blind an offence, Malachi 1? I know this is an OT example, but they are ensamples for us today, and where in the NT does it say God will accept a person's second best?

[jmacvols]

I will give the person the benefit of the doubt for what they were wearing. How do you think the other priests at the temple would have greeted the fellow priest that showed up late, haft dressed, dirty and bloody, if that priest on his way to the temple, had stopped on the road to help the man that was left half dead, gotten dirty and loaned him half his clothes?

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?

[jmacvols]

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?

A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

[jmacvols]

I work third shift, and get off at 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
I wear "old work clothes" to church the weeks I am working because I just got off work and barely have time to eat breakfast before I have to turn around and go to church for the service, which starts at 9:00.

Thus said, you basically called me immodest because I don't have time to change between work and church.

I said there are circumstances that are beyond a person's control, I am not talking about these kind of circumstances. I am talking about those with plenty of time before worship to decide what to wear.

[holo]

I don't use the internet when I sing.But you use songbooks. Where did God ordain that?

Sure there is, people use it mulitple times everyday. Some just don't want to see it in the bible.Where exactly in the bible is this law to be found?

Can you explain what Paul meant when he said not to go beyond that which is written?Well, he's most certainly not talking about singing and clapping. What exactly the subject matter is may be discussed, but it is clearly not about what you're suggesting.

I can find in the NT where God said to sing, can you show me where He said to sing and clap?Can you show me where He said to sing and read song books?

I never said we are God's mechanicNo, but you compared our relationship to Him with the one you have with your mechanic, which is just way off base. God Himself describes it as a Father/child relationship, not a business relationship.

I was showing an example of how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. People use it everyday, yet some choose to ignore it when it comes to the bible.Yes, because we're not actually under any such law. People may use it every day. That doesn't mean God does.

It's an addition.So is reading song books.

Again, in what verse did God say to sing and clap?In what verse did God say not to?

I was referencing the NT law which we are under. If we are not under any law, then there is no such thing as sin.The NT isn't a law book, and there's no such thing as "NT law". The law is in the OT, it belongs to the old covenant. We're not in a covenant based on law, but on promise. On grace, not on works. On Christ, not on us. On heart, not outward appearance. On Spirit and truth, not on religion.

And yes, apart from the commandment, sin is dead. The commandment is the power of sin. Therefore, to be free from the commandment is to be free from sin. The law is, after all, the ministry of death, not of life.

Drunkeness is a sin for anyone and everyone, it has nothing to do with custom.I wasn't talking about drunkenness though :)

The NT does contain law, again Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4, where there is no law there is no sin.Exactly. Therefore, the further you get away from the law, the further you get away from sin. Just like Adam and Eve were, originally. They were free from sin until the commandment came. Sin took advantage of the commandment.

If we are not under NT law, then there is no such thing as sin today.No such thing as sin in that which is born of God, yes.

How do you figure a God who decided to become man and die naked on a cross, will accept or reject your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

[holo]

God didn't accept Nadab and Abihu's sacrifice. Do you really think you can force things on God that He did not ask for?No. So I will worship Him in Spirit and Truth and honesty, not in religious exercise and meaningless man-made rules such as "thou shalt not clap" which not only doesn't make any sense, but also lack any biblical basis.

God has never asked you not to clap your hands. It's really unfathomable that you can actually read what Jesus said and did, and what the epistles say about the gospel and the nature of God, and still manage to reduce worship to something as petty and unholy as a rule about clapping.


Jn 4:24 says worship must be done in Spirit and in truth. Singing is part of worship, so it must be done is spirit and truth.And how exactly does "in Spirit and truth" translate to "thou shalt not clap thine hands"?

Is there even a particular reason God doesn't like clapping? Or is He just whimsical?

I posted the above link before. God's word is truth, so worship must conform to God's word. As the link states, those that think they can improvise their own worship are innovators, will-worshippers and are not worshpping God in truth.And yet here you are, not only improvising your very own type of worship, but even trying to pass it on as law from God Himself! And you warn others not to "go beyond what is written"!

[holo]

A person not offering ther best to God is an offence.And not clapping your hands is "your best"...?

So you think people can relegate God to second place in their lives?No, I think the very idea that God can have a "place" in your life is really an insult to the Lord. He's not to have a certain place in your life. He IS your life.

If one does not have to do his best for God in one area, then he does not have to give his best in any area. One can practice ChrsitianityI think this is the core of the problem - "practicing christianity". The whole concept of "practicing christianity" is a religious concept that has nothing to do with the gospel. You don't "practice" Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS our life, He IS the truth, He IS the way, He IS our righteousness and our hope and our salvation.

Was it an offence to God when people offered less than the best of the flock to God, was offering the lame, sick and blind an offence, Malachi 1? I know this is an OT example, but they are ensamples for us today, and where in the NT does it say God will accept a person's second best?God doesn't "accept" second bests or even first bests. He died for us while we were still sinners and His enemies. If you want to try and please God with your behaviour and your religion, go back to the old covenant and try to keep that, and remember how Jesus raised the bar of the law, because that's what you'll have to do if you want to actually please God.

Fortunately for us, the gospel isn't about us managing to please God, but to believe in Him whom has already pleased Him! Why do christians, of all people, believe that they can actually make themselves approvable to God? And why do they think they can do so by not clapping or not using drums or wearing earrings or whatever?

[holo]

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?Yes, what about him? Is God going to be offended or disapointed? Will God perhaps accept me even if all my jeans are torn? Will He perhaps lend me His ear if I take a long shower and wear nice clothes and is the first one to church and haven't clapped hands in a month? That must certainly make God a little more benevolent toward me, because it's not like He looks to my heart or knows my innermost thoughts or anything...

[jmacvols]

But you use songbooks. Where did God ordain that?

All songbooks do is get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics so things can be done decently and in order. I do not have the lyrics to songs memorized, so I need a book with the lyrics. So even though I use a songbook, the net result is all I am doing is singing, which is all God said for me to do, nothing more.

Where exactly in the bible is this law to be found?

When the Lord instituted the Lord's Supper He used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine. Would it be alright to substitute cokes and hot dogs?

Well, he's most certainly not talking about singing and clapping. What exactly the subject matter is may be discussed, but it is clearly not about what you're suggesting.

Proof?
Things that are "written" is reference to God's word and God's wrod says to sing, not sing and clap.

Can you show me where He said to sing and read song books?

I explained this above. When one sings from a songbook is he doing anything more than singing? No. A songbook is an aid to singing not an addition like clapping or instruments.

No, but you compared our relationship to Him with the one you have with your mechanic, which is just way off base. God Himself describes it as a Father/child relationship, not a business relationship.

The point of the mechanic example was to show how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. Did you see how it works in that example? How about this. You manage a business and hire a new employee and tell that new employee to be at work before 8:00Am sharp tomorrow morning. Eight in the morning comes, but the new employee does not show and you get behind with your work and get in trouble with the owner of the business. Finally at 4:00Pm the new employee shows up for work. You tell him that that you said for him to be there before 8:00Am. He says "But you didn't say not be here at 4:00Pm". Get the point? You did not have to exclude every other time, all you have to say is be there before 8:00Am that excluded him showing up at 4:00Pm. When you tell someone to be there at 8:00Am you expect them to be there at eight not four. WHen God says to sing, He expects people to sing not anything else. Do you want people to treat the words from your mouth as some treat God's words?

Yes, because we're not actually under any such law. People may use it every day. That doesn't mean God does.

We most certainly are. From the above example, if you are to be at work at 8:00Am in the morning, show up at 4:00Pm and when the owner/manager ask why you are late, say "you never specifically said for me not to show up at 4:00PM". Let us know how it goes over.

So is reading song books.

How so? God said sing, and if I am singing lyrics from a book, am I doing more than what God said? No. When God gives a command, He gives us the authority needed to carry out that command. No reason to give us a command then not give us the authority to use those things to carry out that command. Songbooks are used in carrying out that command, they add nothing to what God said. The bible says the disciples came together upon the first day of the week. If we are to follow their example, then we too are to come together upon the first day of the week. For us to 'come together' and follow their example we need a place to come together, so a building or some other structure is needed in order to follow this biblical example.

In what verse did God say not to?

He did not have to say "not to". When He said sing that excludes clapping. Again its called the law of inclusion and exclusion. A mother is going to bake a pie and needs some eggs. She gives her son enough money and tells him to go to the grocery and bring her back some eggs. If he does what she says, what will he bring back? Eggs. If he brings back something other than eggs he did not do what she authorized him. The mother did not have to make a list a mile long of things not to get until she excluded everything in the store but eggs, all she has to say is get eggs that includes eggs and excludes getting anything else.

The NT isn't a law book, and there's no such thing as "NT law". The law is in the OT, it belongs to the old covenant. We're not in a covenant based on law, but on promise. On grace, not on works. On Christ, not on us. On heart, not outward appearance. On Spirit and truth, not on religion.

YOu are simply wrong on this point. The NT also contains law. Explain Gal 6:2.
Are you saying religion does not matter? Are you saying obedience (works) do not matter?

And yes, apart from the commandment, sin is dead. The commandment is the power of sin. Therefore, to be free from the commandment is to be free from sin. The law is, after all, the ministry of death, not of life.

The bible says sin is transgression of the law. If no law exist today, then there is nothing to transgress and sin does not exist. DO you think sin does not exist today?

I wasn't talking about drunkenness though :)[

Exactly. Therefore, the further you get away from the law, the further you get away from sin. Just like Adam and Eve were, originally. They were free from sin until the commandment came. Sin took advantage of the commandment.

Exactly how does one "get away from the law"?

No such thing as sin in that which is born of God, yes.

SO those born of God are perfectly sinless? 1 Jn 1:8.

How do you figure a God who decided to become man and die naked on a cross, will accept or reject your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

I can read His word,the bible which is truth and that lets me know how to worship in truth. Those that think they can worship God apart form the bible are those trying to worship according to their own feelings and opinions, will-woshippers, seeking to please themselves and not God.

[bling]

A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

That is really easy to say. Some middle men seem to think that is anything less then a burqa would be to reveling so that is what you are saying. You have to dress so no man anywhere could possible “lust” after you?

[bling]

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?

Would I not have to talk with them and not just judge their motive?

[holo]

All songbooks do is get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics so things can be done decently and in order.That's all clapping does as well. It helps keep the rhythm. Why is it OK to use songbooks but not clapping?

I do not have the lyrics to songs memorized, so I need a book with the lyrics.So what? According to your "law of inclusion and exclusion," reading during worship, or using any form of tool to aid in singing, is against God's will.

When the Lord instituted the Lord's Supper He used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine. Would it be alright to substitute cokes and hot dogs?Yes, of course, if that's what is available. A lot of people here in Scandinavia can't drink wine without offense, so at the very least it'll have to be alcohol-free, even though Jesus and the disciples drank real wine. If you can't eat anything but exactly what Jesus ate, how can you walk in shoes when He probably used sandals? How come you can pick and choose when this "law of inclusion and exlusion" applies?

Proof?
Things that are "written" is reference to God's word and God's wrod says to sing, not sing and clap.What specific passage are you talking about?

I explained this above. When one sings from a songbook is he doing anything more than singing? No.Yes. One is reading. Don't you think God gets a little sad when you can't even remember what you're supposed to sing?

The point of the mechanic example was to show how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. Did you see how it works in that example?Yes. I also see that there's no such law in the bible or in the kingdom of God.

How about this. You manage a business and hire a new employee and tell that new employee to be at work before 8:00Am sharp tomorrow morning. Eight in the morning comes, but the new employee does not show and you get behind with your work and get in trouble with the owner of the business. Finally at 4:00Pm the new employee shows up for work. You tell him that that you said for him to be there before 8:00Am. He says "But you didn't say not be here at 4:00Pm". Get the point? You did not have to exclude every other time, all you have to say is be there before 8:00Am that excluded him showing up at 4:00Pm. When you tell someone to be there at 8:00Am you expect them to be there at eight not four.Yes, but again we're not God's employees, we're His children. Would you use this same principle if your kids picked some flowers for you or wrote "love you dad!! on a card?

It's really quite disturbing that you're equating God with some company owner, and yourself with some completely senseless and obviously mentally retarted employee.

Do you want people to treat the words from your mouth as some treat God's words?How do "some" treat God's words?

We most certainly are. From the above example, if you are to be at work at 8:00Am in the morningThe above example says absolutely nothing about our relationship with God.

The bible says the disciples came together upon the first day of the week. If we are to follow their example, then we too are to come together upon the first day of the week.Yes, but why should we follow their example? Why not come together on, say, a wednesday, if that's more practical for us? Why do you think that something written in the bible is automatically some sort of rule for you to follow? And how do you pick exactly which things to take as law, and which things you can ignore?

For us to 'come together' and follow their example we need a place to come together, so a building or some other structure is needed in order to follow this biblical example.But you don't think that perhaps the point here is that they came together, not that they did so in a particular building or on a certain day?

Would you make some rule that unless your kid talked to you only on thursdays, you would be offended at the child?

He did not have to say "not to". When He said sing that excludes clapping.What kind of twisted logic is that? When you order a hamburger, does that exclude ketchup?

Again its called the law of inclusion and exclusion. A mother is going to bake a pie and needs some eggs. She gives her son enough money and tells him to go to the grocery and bring her back some eggs. If he does what she says, what will he bring back? Eggs. If he brings back something other than eggs he did not do what she authorized him. The mother did not have to make a list a mile long of things not to get until she excluded everything in the store but eggs, all she has to say is get eggs that includes eggs and excludes getting anything else.Sure, but why are you comparing worshipping God with getting eggs for your mom? It's not the same thing by a far shot.

YOu are simply wrong on this point. The NT also contains law. Explain Gal 6:2.Fulfilling the law of Christ, you mean? What does that have to do with clapping your hands? Do you think the "law of Christ" is some list of random stuff God prefers, for no clear reason? Does singing, or refraining from clapping, have anything to do with bearing each other's burdens, as the first part of the verse says?

Are you saying religion does not matter?Religion doesn't impress God, and it has never helped anyone. Faith, on the other hand...

Are you saying obedience (works) do not matter?Obedience matters. Making up random laws not found in the bible, based on the "law of inclusion and exclusion", from a testament that warns AGAINST subjecting yourself to such rules as "taste not, handle not", does NOT matter. Not to God, anyway. Do you honestly believe God is upset with me because I clap?

The bible says sin is transgression of the law.Yes, and it also says that sin existed long before the law, and that sin is everything that is not of faith, and that we aren't under the law, and that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

If no law exist today, then there is nothing to transgress and sin does not exist. DO you think sin does not exist today?The law exists, but we are dead. We were in Adam, we were sinners by birth. Then we came to faith and were crucified with Christ. And born again, this time of God. We are, as Paul says, dead to the law. The law has no claim on us. The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous.

Exactly how does one "get away from the law"?By believing on Christ. When we do that, we are "baptised into His death" as Paul puts it. The only way to get away from the law is by dying.

SO those born of God are perfectly sinless?Yes, of course they are. Whoever is born of God cannot sin.

1 Jn 1:8.Yes, He has purified us from all unrighteousness. If there was any unrighteousness left, we wouldn't go to heaven.

I can read His word,the bible which is truth and that lets me know how to worship in truth. Those that think they can worship God apart form the bible are those trying to worship according to their own feelings and opinions, will-woshippers, seeking to please themselves and not God.Which is pretty much what you're doing when you're reducing "Spirit and truth" to be a certain movement with your hands. BTW, what exactly can you do when you sing? Can you close your eyes? Tap your foot? How many songs must you sing? How long must you sing for? Which songs exactly can you sing? Can you improvise a song?

[bling]

Holo,
You might want to include the fact that we use four part harmony today and back then there was no four part harmony.

[Gabby2]

Originally Posted by jmacvols http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45634900#post45634900)
A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

So how much/what type of clothing is that? A burqa, perhaps? With the complete head scarf so that no hair is showing (since some guys lust when they see hair)? Must also cover the eyes, since they can be revealing, and cause lust.

At the same time, since you are so concerned about *women* not wearing *anything* that could possibly cause lust - what about men? Granted, I know that women don't have the problem with being visually turned on that men do, but let me tell you - if I see a guy wearing pants that fit just *right*, a shirt that reveals his physique....you get my drift...in fact now that I think of it - when I was single, in order to avoid my having lustful thoughts, I'd have to ask that you men also wear loose clothes - maybe a burqa with *loose* pants underneath.

The road goes both ways, you know - unless YOU are wearing clothes that don't potentially cause a woman to lust, you shouldn't expect women to do that for men!

[jmacvols]

That is really easy to say. Some middle men seem to think that is anything less then a burqa would be to reveling so that is what you are saying. You have to dress so no man anywhere could possible “lust” after you?


Yes, the bible calls it shamefacedness.

[jmacvols]

That's all clapping does as well. It helps keep the rhythm. Why is it OK to use songbooks but not clapping?

Clapping And singing are not the same thing, ask any child. When God commanded singing, He gives the authority to use aids to carry that command out, hence songbooks are aids. God nowhere said to sing and clap.

So what? According to your "law of inclusion and exclusion," reading during worship, or using any form of tool to aid in singing, is against God's will.

The law of inclusion and exclusion is a part of logic which you apparently choose to ignore or only see when it's convenient. Teaching/preaching is a part of worship which included reading the bible. Those in Thessolonica studied the scriptures daily to see if those things were so, could they do this without reading the scriptures? Your "rational" falls short.

Yes, of course, if that's what is available. A lot of people here in Scandinavia can't drink wine without offense, so at the very least it'll have to be alcohol-free, even though Jesus and the disciples drank real wine. If you can't eat anything but exactly what Jesus ate, how can you walk in shoes when He probably used sandals? How come you can pick and choose when this "law of inclusion and exlusion" applies?
What I underlined above speaks for itself. Jesus used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine yet you think you can change what Jesus instituted. It's all about what holo wants not what the Lord wants.

What specific passage are you talking about?
Paul told the Corinthians not to go above that which is written. That which is written in the bible is "sing", you go above that by trying to add clapping.

Yes. One is reading. Don't you think God gets a little sad when you can't even remember what you're supposed to sing?

Where is it written that I have to memorize every lyric to every song? Do you have the entire bible memorized?

Yes. I also see that there's no such law in the bible or in the kingdom of God.

The law of inclusion/exclusion is in the bible your denial does not make it go away.

Yes, but again we're not God's employees, we're His children. Would you use this same principle if your kids picked some flowers for you or wrote "love you dad!! on a card?

It's really quite disturbing that you're equating God with some company owner, and yourself with some completely senseless and obviously mentally retarted employee.

You are apparently are not reading what I posted. Nowhere did I say we are God's employees or that God owns a company. I gave common, everyday examples of the law of inclusion/exclusion and instead of addressing them, you avoided them and falsely accuse me of something I did not say. The examples prove that everyone frequently uses the law of inclusion/exclusion yet you chose to ignore it for it completely refutes what you are trying to do.

How do "some" treat God's words?
Not as well as they treat their own words. People can understand, and expect others to understand, the law of inclusion/exclusion when they use it, but want to ignore when God uses it.

The above example says absolutely nothing about our relationship with God.

I gave an example of the law of inclusion/exclusion and you choose to avoid it, again.

Yes, but why should we follow their example? Why not come together on, say, a wednesday, if that's more practical for us? Why do you think that something written in the bible is automatically some sort of rule for you to follow? And how do you pick exactly which things to take as law, and which things you can ignore?

What I highlighted above speaks for itself, you have no respect for bible authority, you only do what pleases holo and not God. Can you show us a biblical example of the church meeting on a day other than the first day of the week?



But you don't think that perhaps the point here is that they came together, not that they did so in a particular building or on a certain day?

Would you make some rule that unless your kid talked to you only on thursdays, you would be offended at the child?

What kind of twisted logic is that? When you order a hamburger, does that exclude ketchup?

the law of inclusion/exclusion is part of logic, you need to do some studying about it. Google it.


Sure, but why are you comparing worshipping God with getting eggs for your mom? It's not the same thing by a far shot.

I didn't, you falsely accuse me again of something I did not do. I gave another example of a common use of the law of inclsuion/exclusion and you ignore it. You obviously do not want to deal with the facts.

Fulfilling the law of Christ, you mean? What does that have to do with clapping your hands? Do you think the "law of Christ" is some list of random stuff God prefers, for no clear reason? Does singing, or refraining from clapping, have anything to do with bearing each other's burdens, as the first part of the verse says?

THe NT is the law of Christ and if the NT says sing then that's the "law", yet you choose to ignore it anyway.

Religion doesn't impress God, and it has never helped anyone. Faith, on the other hand...

James 1:27.


Obedience matters. Making up random laws not found in the bible, based on the "law of inclusion and exclusion", from a testament that warns AGAINST subjecting yourself to such rules as "taste not, handle not", does NOT matter. Not to God, anyway. Do you honestly believe God is upset with me because I clap?

THe law of inclusion/excluison exists, you can ignore it when you like but you can't get rid of it.
God is upset when people disobey Him. WHen He said sing and people instead clap-- thats disobedience.
Again is worship about what God wants or is about what satisfies holo? Should we all stop reading the bible to see what God wants and just listen to you? This seems to be what you are trying to say.

Yes, and it also says that sin existed long before the law, and that sin is everything that is not of faith, and that we aren't under the law, and that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.


We are under the NT law and when the NT says sing and one claps then he is transgressing the law.

The law exists, but we are dead. We were in Adam, we were sinners by birth. Then we came to faith and were crucified with Christ. And born again, this time of God. We are, as Paul says, dead to the law. The law has no claim on us. The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous.

No one is born a sinner, this is a false idea of Calvinism. Eccl 7:29 God made man upright, but man has gone about seeking inventions.

By believing on Christ. When we do that, we are "baptised into His death" as Paul puts it. The only way to get away from the law is by dying.

No verse says such, only Christ by dying on the cross could remove the OT law.

Yes, of course they are. Whoever is born of God cannot sin.

John said that if you say you have no sin you deceive yourself and truth is not in you, 1 Jn 1:8. You do not understand 1 jn 3:9.

Yes, He has purified us from all unrighteousness. If there was any unrighteousness left, we wouldn't go to heaven.

1 Jn 1:8 proves all are sinners, no one is perfectly sinless.

Which is pretty much what you're doing when you're reducing "Spirit and truth" to be a certain movement with your hands. BTW, what exactly can you do when you sing? Can you close your eyes? Tap your foot? How many songs must you sing? How long must you sing for? Which songs exactly can you sing? Can you improvise a song?
Again you ignore the bible and will only do what please holo. We are to worship in truth, Gods word is truth so we are to worship by what God said in the bible and all God said was sing. Of course you won't accept God's authority on the matter anyway.

[jmacvols]

Originally Posted by jmacvols http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45634900#post45634900)
A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

So how much/what type of clothing is that? A burqa, perhaps? With the complete head scarf so that no hair is showing (since some guys lust when they see hair)? Must also cover the eyes, since they can be revealing, and cause lust.

At the same time, since you are so concerned about *women* not wearing *anything* that could possibly cause lust - what about men? Granted, I know that women don't have the problem with being visually turned on that men do, but let me tell you - if I see a guy wearing pants that fit just *right*, a shirt that reveals his physique....you get my drift...in fact now that I think of it - when I was single, in order to avoid my having lustful thoughts, I'd have to ask that you men also wear loose clothes - maybe a burqa with *loose* pants underneath.

The road goes both ways, you know - unless YOU are wearing clothes that don't potentially cause a woman to lust, you shouldn't expect women to do that for men!

Yes I believe both men and women should dress approprately, shamefacedness applies to both.

[Gabby2]

So - how do you dress in a way that avoids lust for the women? If you expect women to wear loose fitting *dresses* that avoid giving shape to the female figure, do *you* also wear