Something I think needs pondered

[SGM4HIM]

In general use today throughout the world most folks (99.44/100) of Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc would consider MJ as Christian.

I am puzzled by the need to have a separate and distanced distinction. I believe MJ and other Christians have more in common than not, on the big issues.

[Ivy]

Well, as you know, it's not a dirty word to me. :wave:


I can understand a Jewish believer not using it in some cases, though, because to me, it means Gentile believer in Yeshua/Jesus.

[Ivy]

Cola's post was first. Boy, is it random around here tonight!

[Ivy]

wow, database errors :P

Thats the thing Though. The term was never meant to distinguish between Jew and Gentile. At the Time the term was first coined, the Church consisted mostly of Jews.

I guess i'm annoyed at the (what i believe to be) false distinction between the Church and Israel. The Church is not a Gentile thing, the Church is comprised of both Jew and Gentile. Is it not a Glorious thing that what used to be separated is now united? That we are now one people?

I don't know, i guess I'm just annoyed.

I believe we are one people in the same way that a husband and wife are one......they are one, but they are also two distinct individuals.

Distinguishing between Jew and Gentile doesn't relate to worth or salvation, but only to differing covenantal obligations.

The use the distinction has to me is to make sure that I give the respect to the representatives of the Jewish root that I owe them, and to uphold their right to practice Shabbat, feasts, etc. as they will.

It's the covenantal faithfulness of the Jewish people that brought us the Redeemer of the whole world, and I want to support that continuing covenantal faithfulness, because it's a powerful witness of God's power.

But you knew that. ;)

[Ivy]

Geeze, this is fun.........it's like one of those tile games where the tiles are out of sequence. :o :eek: :confused: :D

[debi b]

Why are you bothered at the way we choose to talk about ourselves :scratch:

I would think a good way to begin acting like we are one is to not be offended by us and how we choose to speak amongst ourselves :wave:

[Lebesgue]

But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to)

Dude, it's ok I don't think you are being confrontational.

I practice Judaism which most Christians probably don't, that is the difference. I DO consider Christians as part of the Body of Messiah and Heaven will certainly be full of Christians from many diverse denominations.

Blessings Brother.

Shalom,

Lenesgue

[Colabomb]

Many i have seen do not Identify as "Christian". They call themselves Messianic.

Is it not obvious to everyone here that we are claiming the same thing? To be the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah/Christ?

One word emphasizes a Hebrew Title, one emphasizes a Greek Title, They both mean the same thing.

Why is Christian such a dirty word around here?

[Ivy]

Cola's post was first. Boy, is it random around here tonight!

[Colabomb]

wow, database errors :P

Thats the thing Though. The term was never meant to distinguish between Jew and Gentile. At the Time the term was first coined, the Church consisted mostly of Jews.

I guess i'm annoyed at the (what i believe to be) false distinction between the Church and Israel. The Church is not a Gentile thing, the Church is comprised of both Jew and Gentile. Is it not a Glorious thing that what used to be separated is now united? That we are now one body?

I don't know, i guess I'm just annoyed. I find the Church to be a Beautiful thing. The People of God now come from many nations and many peoples. While I believe everyone should be able to hold on to their own heritage and history, I am frustrated that some want to keep Gentile and Jew Separated forever.

I don't believe that is the will of God.

[Ivy]

To continue, my personal usage of "Christian" probably isn't very universal......to many people, it just means believer in Yeshua/Jesus, and there really isn't an ethnic tone to that definition, you are right. Nor is any believer in Yeshua/Jesus anything dirty, as you and I well know.

[Henaynei]

Christian is used *very* seldom in scripture and it *always* refers to the Gentile ( i.e. those who chose to follow Rav Sha'ul's admonition and not take on the Law)followers of Yeshua - Jewish (and gentile proselytes) followers were called followers of the Way and other such terms, but never Christians - that term/label/designation did not refer to them :)

there is nothing wrong with the term, nothing at all.... but it does not refer to those who follow Yeshua in the manner of the Jews. Just as there is nothing wrong with the term Baptist, but it doesn't refer to the people who pray the rosary... ;)

[Colabomb]

Respectfully i do not see the term "Christian" used exclusively for Gentiles in Scripture.

19Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. 20Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. 21The Lord's hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord. 22News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. 24He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.
25Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
27During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) 29The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. 30This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.


In fact the passage in question speaks about those who were scattered due to the persecution following the stoning of Stephen (in Jerusalem, I assume there were many Jews in that group), and the Gentile believers Paul Preached to.

As I read it the term Christian applied to them all. Even more clearly, the Church in Jerusalem was called a Church.

It is my belief, that the Church is comprised of both Jew and Greek and was from the beginning.

But I can respect your difference of opinion :)

[Skeeterbug]

When a person uses the name Christian to me it describes a person who attends Church,on a sunday, celebrates Christmas, Worships the cross. I do not attend worship on a Sunday, I celebrate the festivals. I do not call my Self a Christian and I definetelly do not want to be referred as one. I am a Messianic Jew which means I am a jew who worships the messiah Yeshua. I enjoy and love my faith.

[Henaynei]

When a person uses the name Christian to me it describes a person who attends Church,on a sunday, celebrates Christmas, Worships the cross. I do not attend worship on a Sunday, I celebrate the festivals. I do not call my Self a Christian and I definetelly do not want to be referred as one. I am a Messianic Jew which means I am a jew who worships the messiah Yeshua. I enjoy and love my faith.:thumbsup:

[Colabomb]

When a person uses the name Christian to me it describes a person who attends Church,on a sunday, celebrates Christmas, Worships the cross. I do not attend worship on a Sunday, I celebrate the festivals. I do not call my Self a Christian and I definetelly do not want to be referred as one. I am a Messianic Jew which means I am a jew who worships the messiah Yeshua. I enjoy and love my faith.

But that is a very superficial use of the term. You obviously know little about your gentile Brothers.

Christian simply means a follower of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth. That includes Jewish Believers whether you accept it or not.

Also, I do not Worship the Cross. I am not an idolator and I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about what i believe.

You have already called me and my Gentile Brothers persecutors, I would appreciate it if you would see us as brothers rather than enemies.

This is the very separation of brothers that disturbs me.

[Wags]

While both believe Christians and Messianics believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah - how they react to that info is what separates them.

Some Christians support the Jewish people, some do not. Just because you don't like to think that Christians persecute Jews in this day and age doesn't make it stop happening.

[Lebesgue]

I am a Messianic believer.

I share with Christians the belief that Y'shua is the Messiah and Redeemer and I am saved through His Blood.

However, I go to Synagogue, not Church, I believe I am called by G-d to keep Torah and live a Jewish life.
I believe I have the heart of Ruth where I wish to stand with and be with the Jewish people, as Ruth said, "your people will be my people".

I practice Judaism with the addition of acceptance of Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, I do not feel it would be accurate for me to call myself a Christian.

That said I feel is it ok to be a Christian, and Heaven will be full of Christians. I just don't think it would be accurate for me to say I am one. I am a Messianic believer.

It's like in mathematics where "congruence" means equivalent but not exactly the same.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Colabomb]

While both believe Christians and Messianics believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah - how they react to that info is what separates them.

Some Christians support the Jewish people, some do not. Just because you don't like to think that Christians persecute Jews in this day and age doesn't make it stop happening.

This is an incoherant post, it has almost nothing to do with what i initially brought up.

yes, there is persecution of Jews in the modern day. However, what does that have at all to do with identity as Christian or Messianic?

You yourself say that many Christians are not antisemitic, so obviously you believe that "Christianity" is not antisemitic.

Frankly, what are you on about, and why are you bringing up antisemitism yet again, in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with hatred or love of Judaism?

I'm starting to wonder if you literally have a paranoia issue.

I would also like to point out that Jews are not the only persecuted group in this world. No religion is more persecuted than Christianity, including both Jew and Gentile. Why not stand with your brothers in Jesus who are dying in the name of your God, rather than do everything you can to separate yourself?

WE are one, we need to start acting like it.


Again, What are you on about?

[Colabomb]

I am a Messianic believer.

I share with Christians the belief that Y'shua is the Messiah and Redeemer and I am saved through His Blood.

However, I go to Synagogue, not Church, I believe I am called by G-d to keep Torah and live a Jewish life.
I believe I have the heart of Ruth where I wish to stand with and be with the Jewish people, as Ruth said, "your people will be my people".

I practice Judaism with the addition of acceptance of Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, I do not feel it would be accurate for me to call myself a Christian.

That said I feel is it ok to be a Christian, and Heaven will be full of Christians. I just don't think it would be accurate for me to say I am one. I am a Messianic believer.

It's like in mathematics where "congruence" means equivalent but not exactly the same.

Shalom,

Lebesgue


But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to)

[ReadingForOrders]

When a person uses the name Christian to me it describes a person who attends Church,on a sunday, celebrates Christmas, Worships the cross. I do not attend worship on a Sunday, I celebrate the festivals. I do not call my Self a Christian and I definetelly do not want to be referred as one. I am a Messianic Jew which means I am a jew who worships the messiah Yeshua. I enjoy and love my faith.
I have never in my life met a person who worships the cross. Can you provide a reference?

[debi b]

my last post should have been #19 - wonder where it went?

golly I am getting dizzy...

[ReadingForOrders]

I know these Database errors are getting very annoying aren't they?

[Wags]

Why does it bother you so much Cola what we choose to call ourselves? Does it bother you when Baptist refer to themselves as Baptists, or Methodist as Methodist?

You have been given answers here, but then you started another thread on the topic - why? What is the point of your repeatedly asking this question?

[Colabomb]

I started the other thread because i saw this one as old, and i wanted to rephrase my question.

it bothers me, because of the disunity it creates. To you it seems The Church is some other, some outside thing. In reality we are One Body. We may be different, with different beliefs, but aren't we really working toward the same thing?

Methodists and Baptists, although they have different beliefs than me on nonessential issues, will call me Brother and proclaim with me the Same name, Christian. We are One regardless of our differences.

[Lulav]

Yes, and what are your debating points? this is the debate forum.

[Lulav]

Respectfully i do not see the term "Christian" used exclusively for Gentiles in Scripture.

19Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. 20Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. 21The Lord's hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord. 22News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. 24He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.
25Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
27During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) 29The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. 30This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.



In fact the passage in question speaks about those who were scattered due to the persecution following the stoning of Stephen (in Jerusalem, I assume there were many Jews in that group), and the Gentile believers Paul Preached to.

As I read it the term Christian applied to them all. Even more clearly, the Church in Jerusalem was called a Church.

It is my belief, that the Church is comprised of both Jew and Greek and was from the beginning.

But I can respect your difference of opinion :) If you will look closely at the wording it does not say that.

Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. This is just defining those who were on the road as Missionaries. This has nothing to do with the diaspora. You do know that there were Jews scattered all over the known world, even before Yeshua died and rose again? That is why he sent out the seventy to the lost sheep of Israel (who weren't lost but they were out of the land, how else would the disciples have found them? :) ) Also in the 2 chapter of Acts which the church claims as the day they were formed , all those men there were Jews. There isn't a mention of any gentiles. Jews were crowding the city for the pilgrim festival of Shavuot, they came from many countries, and spoke many languages, yes, but they had one thing, they were all Jews. This news was for them. Gentiles did not come in unto much later, mainly when the Jews started to share the gospel with the G-d fearers, like Cornelius' family.

also is is of note that many miss, it was the disciples that were called Christians, was this the teachers, like Paul and Barnabus who were called little Christs? Or all the followers? I would vote for the teachers, the greeks would not call them Rabbis as the Jews would call their teachers, so they coined this word.

Those in Jerusalem, the original 11 and others were called ( as was mentioned before ) the followers of The Way.

Yeshua/Jesus Himself gave out this name by saying:

"I am the Way, the truth and the Life"

They were followers of him, and this is more distinct than to be called a little Christ, a little annointed one.

The Way meant so many things in a Jewish context back then, very much connected with a Rabbi's teaching, and the halakha he taught.

[Lulav]

But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to) then you haven't had much exposure to how many Christians feel about Torah.

"It has been done away with, nailed to the cross"

"If you are following the law then you spit on G-ds grace"

"Torah ( the law) is for the Jews, I have freedom from that"

Really , go out there on the forums and look at any discussion about the Torah and you will see what I mean.

You say there shouldn't be any separation between Jew and gentile believers, but it has really always been the gentile ones who have made this distinction. Do you know how many Jews came to belief in their Jewish Messiah by gentiles, only to be told they were no longer Jewish and to stop doing those 'Jewish things' that they were free from them?

Basically we don't like being told to stop disobeying the L-RD, and we are not being told this by heathens, but those that say they worship the same G-d, Ironic, eh?

[Colabomb]

then you haven't had much exposure to how many Christians feel about Torah.

"It has been done away with, nailed to the cross"

"If you are following the law then you spit on G-ds grace"

"Torah ( the law) is for the Jews, I have freedom from that"

Really , go out there on the forums and look at any discussion about the Torah and you will see what I mean.

You say there shouldn't be any separation between Jew and gentile believers, but it has really always been the gentile ones who have made this distinction. Do you know how many Jews came to belief in their Jewish Messiah by gentiles, only to be told they were no longer Jewish and to stop doing those 'Jewish things' that they were free from them?

Basically we don't like being told to stop disobeying the L-RD, and we are not being told this by heathens, but those that say they worship the same G-d, Ironic, eh?

There are differences in opinion in any group. So some gentile Christians are against (voluntary) Torah Observance, does that mean all of us are?

Some Christians would argue that, due to some of my more catholic beliefs, that I am not really a Christian. That does not make me any less so.

We can't disagree on some things yet call each other by the same name?

[Wags]

Why does it bother you so much Cola what we choose to call ourselves? Does it bother you when Baptist refer to themselves as Baptists, or Methodist as Methodist?

You have been given answers here, but then you started another thread on the topic - why? What is the point of your repeatedly asking this question?

[Wags]

I started the other thread because i saw this one as old, and i wanted to rephrase my question.

it bothers me, because of the disunity it creates. To you it seems The Church is some other, some outside thing. In reality we are One Body. We may be different, with different beliefs, but aren't we really working toward the same thing?

Methodists and Baptists, although they have different beliefs than me on nonessential issues, will call me Brother and proclaim with me the Same name, Christian. We are One regardless of our differences.

To me personally, "the church" is something I do see as "other" I didn't come from a background of going to church every Sunday, so "the church" is foreign territory and my experience with Christians both on-line and in real life has left me very wary of them. When I listen to what Christians teach, I am often lead to wonder if in fact we are reading the same scriptures and serving the same God, because the differences are quite vast in areas that I personally consider essential.

[Colabomb]

To me personally, "the church" is something I do see as "other" I didn't come from a background of going to church every Sunday, so "the church" is foreign territory and my experience with Christians both on-line and in real life has left me very wary of them. When I listen to what Christians teach, I am often lead to wonder if in fact we are reading the same scriptures and serving the same God, because the differences are quite vast in areas that I personally consider essential.

Could you please expound?

I have always seen the core of our faith in Christ to be the Gospel. The Sinless Life, Death and Ressurection of Jesus of Nazareth, God incarnate for the remission of our sins.

Would messianic Judaism disagree with this core doctrine of Christainity?

The only issues i see dividing Messianics from Christians personally, is observance (to varying degrees) of Torah Law and an unwillingness to put the antisemitism of the past in the past.

In the Core doctrine of Christ Sacrificed, Raised and Glorified, we are in total agreement as far as i have been able to tell.

[Colabomb]

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&version=31#fen-NIV-28632c)] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.


This is what frustrates me so badly. We won't even call each other by the same name.

[Colabomb]

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

This too.

[Wags]

Yes, the belief in common is that Yeshua is Messiah. After that things tend to diverge quite a bit. For starters, I don't believe that Yeshua came to "free" or "rescue" anyone from the Divine Instructions on how to live a life pleasing to Adonai.

Are you suggesting that we should forsake our beliefs for the sake of "unity" and turn our backs on the Divine Instructions just to appease and ease the conscious of others?

Finally, you appear to view anti-semetism as being in the past, like it only happened during the Crusades or the Holocaust, but my family experiences in the course of our every day lives. Just because you don't recognize it when it happens doesn't mean that it no longer exists, or that we are holding on things of the past.

'He who forgets the past is condemned to repeat it'. --Santiana.
"Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it"-- Winston Churchill

[Colabomb]

Yes, the belief in common is that Yeshua is Messiah. After that things tend to diverge quite a bit. For starters, I don't believe that Yeshua came to "free" or "rescue" anyone from the Divine Instructions on how to live a life pleasing to Adonai.

Are you suggesting that we should forsake our beliefs for the sake of "unity" and turn our backs on the Divine Instructions just to appease and ease the conscious of others?

No. paul said not to Judge based on religious observances and holidays and the like. Go on, follow torah if you will. I will not Judge you for it.

However all I ask is that you return the favor.

We both have the freedom to choose. If following torah law strengthens your faith, by all means sister follow. Tell anyone who has a problem with it to mind their own business.

But then do not go and Judge them for their non observance.

Finally, you appear to view anti-semetism as being in the past, like it only happened during the Crusades or the Holocaust, but my family experiences in the course of our every day lives. Just because you don't recognize it when it happens doesn't mean that it no longer exists, or that we are holding on things of the past.

Antisemitism does exist today. However it is not part and parcel of mainstream christianity like many on this forum seem to think. I have never heard a sermon about "the evil Jews" or been told that it was a sin for Jews to honor their heritage and keep the law.

The Christian faith I am taught decries racism in all its forms. The Jews, the Greeks, the Africans, the Europeans etc, all are one in Christ Jesus. We are to respect our differences and rejoice in our shared faith in Christ. We also know our Savior to be a Jew. To hate the Jews would be to hate our Savior.

Instead of accusing the entire Christian Church of antisemitism. Why do we not work together to purge true antisemitism out of the Church? It is a Minority anyway.

Can you give me examples of the antisemitism you face daily as you said? (I was not aware you were Jewish.)

[Wags]

From a non-messianic point of view:

Presbyterians Tell Jews: Get a Life (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/02/presbyterians-tell-jews-get-life.html)
Church Anti-Israel Activism and Antisemitism (part 1) (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/01/church-anti-israel-activism-and.html)
Church Anti-Israel Activism and Antisemitism (part 2) (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/02/church-anti-israel-activism-and.html)

There is more, but I think that is enough to start you out reading.

[Colabomb]

From a non-messianic point of view:

Presbyterians Tell Jews: Get a Life (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/02/presbyterians-tell-jews-get-life.html)
Church Anti-Israel Activism and Antisemitism (part 1) (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/01/church-anti-israel-activism-and.html)
Church Anti-Israel Activism and Antisemitism (part 2) (http://expresbyterian.blogspot.com/2008/02/church-anti-israel-activism-and.html)

There is more, but I think that is enough to start you out reading.

All these come from the same source, a blogger who is an exPresbyterian, writing about the wrongs of the presbyterian church. Can we have a less biased source?

Secondly, even if what he says is true, that means that there is a problem in one denomination, with some of its leadership. In fact i only really saw evidence against one person, the preparer of said presentation. I see nowhere what the reaction of the denomination was. It could have been quite negative. Remember Bloggers tend to emphasize some facts and ignore others.

I would hardly call that an indictment of all of Christendom.

If you would though, i would like to know what antisemitism you face on a daily basis. You are not presbyterian so honestly i don't know how it affects you.

[Wags]

Anti-Semitism in the Church (http://www.familybible.org/Articles/Jewish-ChristianRelations/AntiSemitism/index.htm)

The Episcopal Church’s Anti-Israel Media Campaign (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=45&x_article=1194)

Methodist Church Renews Drive For Divestment From Israel (http://www.forward.com/articles/12587/)

The Historical Roots of the Anit-Israel Positions of Liberal Protestant Churches (http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=381&PID=470&IID=1565)

[Wags]

In a study (http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/) done at Yale, David Hirsh writes, "If an anti-Zionist worldview becomes widespread, then one likely outcome is the emergence of openly antisemitic movements. The proposition is not that anti-Zionism is motivated by antisemitism; rather that anti-Zionism, which does not start as antisemitism, normalizes hostility to Israel and then to Jews. It is this hostility to Israel and then to Jews, a hostility which gains some of its strength from justified anger with Israeli human rights abuses, that is on the verge of becoming something which many people now find understandable, even respectable. It is moving into the mainstream."

[Kris10leigh]

Such generalizations thrown about! :doh:

Cola, you make some good points, you really do. And those arguing against you have also made some really good points.

I would like to skip directly to the question you keep going back to which is why the separation with the word "Messianic"? For me, quite simply, by saying I worship God in a Messianic fashion, I am saying that I do not follow man's religion, but that of God in the manner closest to what I think Jesus wants of us. That is the reason for the separation. As has already been brought up, it's a belief system, like Methodists, like Catholics, etc.

The largest problem you will find many of us have with mainstream Christianity (I still consider myself a "Christian") is that so much of it came about as a blending of Paganism with Judaism. To me, that's a pretty big problem.

We are all doing what God has led each of us to do.

And to clarify the topic earlier about worshipping the cross, that is false. I've never met a Christian who worships the cross. It is used as a symbolic reminder of the death and resurrection of Jesus. I personally have a problem with bowing before it, but I assure you that those who do bow before it are not worshipping it, but remembering.

[Colabomb]

In a study (http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/) done at Yale, David Hirsh writes, "If an anti-Zionist worldview becomes widespread, then one likely outcome is the emergence of openly antisemitic movements. The proposition is not that anti-Zionism is motivated by antisemitism; rather that anti-Zionism, which does not start as antisemitism, normalizes hostility to Israel and then to Jews. It is this hostility to Israel and then to Jews, a hostility which gains some of its strength from justified anger with Israeli human rights abuses, that is on the verge of becoming something which many people now find understandable, even respectable. It is moving into the mainstream."

So you believe that merely being against some of the actions of the state of israel makes one antisemitic? Honestly?

I support the existence of the State of Israel. But to be honest it has not honored its side of the deal. I believe there should be a Jewish State and a Palestinian state and that BOTH of them shoudl honor the other's border.

However i believe there is a difference between the Modern political state of Israel and Israel of Scripture.

Saying "Modern Israel is not abiding by the rules" is quite different from saying "The Jews are evil people"

The first is a political belief, the second is antisemitism.

[Lulav]

Christian is used *very* seldom in scripture and it *always* refers to the Gentile ( i.e. those who chose to follow Rav Sha'ul's admonition and not take on the Law)followers of Yeshua - Jewish (and gentile proselytes) followers were called followers of the Way and other such terms, but never Christians - that term/label/designation did not refer to them

there is nothing wrong with the term, nothing at all.... but it does not refer to those who follow Yeshua in the manner of the Jews. Just as there is nothing wrong with the term Baptist, but it doesn't refer to the people who pray the rosary... :thumbsup:

While both believe Christians and Messianics believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah - how they react to that info is what separates them.

Some Christians support the Jewish people, some do not. Just because you don't like to think that Christians persecute Jews in this day and age doesn't make it stop happening. ( answering with wags)
Yes, and Jews were promised a Messiah, but gentiles weren't, yet they act like he was promised to them first and foremost and shun what Paul warned the Romans against, speaking evil about the 'true' branches. Christianity has a foundation after the apostles died off to separate themselves from 'those despicable Jews who killed 'Our' Savior'. That Savior came for the Jews, and then he was graciously offered to the gentiles, but they became superior and prideful and it resonates still today throughout all the Christian denominations. I am not saying every individual but the institutions themselves. If we want to distance ourselves from that, and you don't, it is obvious why you don't understand.

This is an incoherant post, it has almost nothing to do with what i initially brought up.

yes, there is persecution of Jews in the modern day. However, what does that have at all to do with identity as Christian or Messianic?

You yourself say that many Christians are not antisemitic, so obviously you believe that "Christianity" is not antisemitic.

Frankly, what are you on about, and why are you bringing up antisemitism yet again, in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with hatred or love of Judaism?

I'm starting to wonder if you literally have a paranoia issue.

I would also like to point out that Jews are not the only persecuted group in this world. No religion is more persecuted than Christianity, including both Jew and Gentile. Why not stand with your brothers in Jesus who are dying in the name of your God, rather than do everything you can to separate yourself?

WE are one, we need to start acting like it.


Again, What are you on about? This is very rude, if you don't understand something, ask, politely, this is our forum and you are a guest, please keep that in mind.

But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to) Is not necessary for salvation, but not totally not necessary, that is the BIG factor here. How do you know it's wrong not to sleep with your sister? Because what law forbids it?


There are differences in opinion in any group. So some gentile Christians are against (voluntary) Torah Observance, does that mean all of us are?

Some Christians would argue that, due to some of my more catholic beliefs, that I am not really a Christian. That does not make me any less so.

We can't disagree on some things yet call each other by the same name? Voluntary? ok, but look at this:

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.



15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the L-RD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the L-RD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the L-RD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the L-RD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
See, we were given a choice too, but our loving G-d told us what to choose, LIFE,and life comes by drawing near to him and obeying him. We just choose this, but if others don't, don't condemn us.



No. paul said not to Judge based on religious observances and holidays and the like. Go on, follow torah if you will. I will not Judge you for it.

However all I ask is that you return the favor.

We both have the freedom to choose. If following torah law strengthens your faith, by all means sister follow. Tell anyone who has a problem with it to mind their own business.

But then do not go and Judge them for their non observance.

Antisemitism does exist today. However it is not part and parcel of mainstream christianity like many on this forum seem to think. I have never heard a sermon about "the evil Jews" or been told that it was a sin for Jews to honor their heritage and keep the law.

The Christian faith I am taught decries racism in all its forms. The Jews, the Greeks, the Africans, the Europeans etc, all are one in Christ Jesus. We are to respect our differences and rejoice in our shared faith in Christ. We also know our Savior to be a Jew. To hate the Jews would be to hate our Savior.

Instead of accusing the entire Christian Church of antisemitism. Why do we not work together to purge true antisemitism out of the Church? It is a Minority anyway.

Can you give me examples of the antisemitism you face daily as you said? (I was not aware you were Jewish.) Are you aware of how many Churches have taken their support away from Israel, and the Jewish people who live there, those who are the brethren of Jesus?

So you believe that merely being against some of the actions of the state of israel makes one antisemitic? Honestly?

I support the existence of the State of Israel. But to be honest it has not honored its side of the deal. I believe there should be a Jewish State and a Palestinian state and that BOTH of them shoudl honor the other's border.

However i believe there is a difference between the Modern political state of Israel and Israel of Scripture.

Saying "Modern Israel is not abiding by the rules" is quite different from saying "The Jews are evil people"

The first is a political belief, the second is antisemitism. G-d said he would bring his people back and many other things, we live in a time when we are seeing prophecy come true but it will take time as we live thorough it. If we don't support the Jews being there, ( no matter what is going on) then you don't support G-d's word saying he would bring them back to their own land. He never says it belonged to anyone else. So if you don't agree with what they are doing, the only conclusion is you also don't agree with what G-d has done.

[Wags]

However i believe there is a difference between the Modern political state of Israel and Israel of Scripture. .

I believe that the modern state of Israel was put in place by the Most High just as was prophesied. (Amos 9, Acts 15)

I believe that the land was given to Israel by God and that no man has a right to change that. When someone advocates that Israel give away it's birthright, then they are advocating against the wisdom of God.

[Colabomb]

I believe that the modern state of Israel was put in place by the Most High just as was prophesied. (Amos 9, Acts 15)

I believe that the land was given to Israel by God and that no man has a right to change that. When someone advocates that Israel give away it's birthright, then they are advocating against the wisdom of God.

And you are allowed your opinion and interpretation.

However you are not willing to call yourself one with me because i disagree with you? Is not the Cross and His Gospel more important than eschatological beliefs?

[Wags]

Why are you so insistent that Messianics call themselves by the name that you have chosen to call yourself?

[Lulav]

And you are allowed your opinion and interpretation.

However you are not willing to call yourself one with me because i disagree with you? Is not the Cross and His Gospel more important than eschatological beliefs?

again, you may not want to come off as being arrogant, but once again you do. We don't need your permission to follow Torah or to follow the whole bible and believe what it says.;)

I think you defined the problem and it's not going to change by us, it has to be the Christians who were raised thinking their only holy book is the gospels and the letters of Paul and a few others, that is just the end of the story, you really are missing a lot by classifying the rest as 'Old' , 'For the Jews only' ' I have freedom from that' and a bunch of other classic cliche's those who don't want to be as one with Jews use.


You ask:

Is not the Cross and His Gospel more important than eschatological beliefs? Firstly we don't separate these things, again, we read the bible as a whole. Secondly I think there is a separation, now that I see how you see it.

To Jews the Gospel was the preaching of the kingdom, we, as Jews, had been told about throughout our history. The gentiles knew none of this. If you read the Gospels carefully, especially John, you will see this.

Please Read ALL of John 1 to see what I mean.

Philip found Nathaniel and told him, 'We've found the one that Moshe wrote about in the Torah , also the Prophets - It'' Yeshua Ben- Yosef from Nazareth!Messianic fever was everywhere when Yeshua arrived on the scene. He was our expectation. There were no gentiles looking or even knowing what a Messiah was. This is all Jewish history and religion, not that of gentiles who were all pagan. So there starts the difference. The next thing is that when the apostles went out to share this news of the kingdom with other Jews they had the knowledge of Torah and the prophets to understand what this meant.

But on the other hand, Paul preached something different to the gentile who had none of this understanding or history, he preached , as you call it, 'The Cross', and 'Christ crucified'. It really is about the same person, Yeshua, but taught about from two different views or angles.

But instead of the gentiles wanting to further their knowledge of this wonderful Jewish savior, by following Acts 15:21, instead there were those early on that CHOOSE to separate themselves from who they considered 'despicable Jews' because they had killed 'their Savior'!

If you can't see the pride and blindness in that, then there's no reason to try to keep making you understand why we have a problem.

As you can see, being called by the same name does not mean we agree, having separate names helps to delineate where we are coming from. Those followers of Yeshua were called Followers of The Way. Now today because of some strange groups using this, it would have a connotation different than back then. But Messianic Judaism should mean those who are Jewish and have found their Jewish Messiah, and have not allowed themselves to be assimilated into a none Jewish church. Then there are those who have done so. We still believe in the same Messiah, but believe differently about how to live our worship life.

[Henaynei]

And you are allowed your opinion and interpretation.

However you are not willing to call yourself one with me because i disagree with you? Is not the Cross and His Gospel more important than eschatological beliefs?I call you brother, I call you fellow follower of Messiah, I recognize you and I as part of His Body - just not the same part ;)

You have been taught that if one is a fellow follower of Messiah they are therefore a Christian, but that is not necessarily so.... not one of the Jewish followers of Yeshua ever called themselves Christians... believers zealous for the Law, yes; followers of The Way, yes; but it was not necessary that they be called Christians to be part of His body.... Christian is not the surname of the fellowship of believers.... the surname is His Body

I am Henaynei Messianic of His Body
you are Colabomb Christian of His Body

we are both members of His Body and stand equal before His Throne :D

[Lulav]

Good analogy Henaynei, and Paul even said something to that effect to the Corinth congregation,


12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Messiah. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Be happy to be a part, not the same. :)

[Ivy]

again, you may not want to come off as being arrogant, but once again you do.

Not. :) You're fine, Cola.

It's just a matter of differing ways of using the term Christian. Sometimes people are saying the same thing, but talking past each other because they have a different meaning for the same word. It doesn't indicate arrogance.

[Lulav]

But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to)

Not. :) You're fine, Cola.

It's just a matter of differing ways of using the term Christian. Sometimes people are saying the same thing, but talking past each other because they have a different meaning for the same word. It doesn't indicate arrogance.

It wasn't arrogant, it was confrontational.

But since when is torah observance against Christianity? All Christianity teaches is that Torah Observance is not necessary, it never says (except for some notable antisemites in our past) that it is wrong to be torah observant.

And when Christians say "The Church" we usually mean the whole body of Believers, not a building.

Blessings Brother
John ><>

(If i sound confrontational i do not mean to be, i sometimes sound harsher than i mean to)

And this sounded confrontational

This is an incoherant post, it has almost nothing to do with what i initially brought up.

yes, there is persecution of Jews in the modern day. However, what does that have at all to do with identity as Christian or Messianic?

You yourself say that many Christians are not antisemitic, so obviously you believe that "Christianity" is not antisemitic.

Frankly, what are you on about, and why are you bringing up antisemitism yet again, in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with hatred or love of Judaism?

I'm starting to wonder if you literally have a paranoia issue.

I would also like to point out that Jews are not the only persecuted group in this world. No religion is more persecuted than Christianity, including both Jew and Gentile. Why not stand with your brothers in Jesus who are dying in the name of your God, rather than do everything you can to separate yourself?

WE are one, we need to start acting like it.


Again, What are you on about?

[Colabomb]

Yes i admit THAT post was a little controversial. But I had been putting up with wags bringing up Jewish persecution and inserting it into several conversations that have NOTHING to do with antisemitism for a while at that point. I lost a bit of control.

But Generally I am not a confrontational Person, and I get frustrated when everyone assumes i have an ulterior motive. I'm not out to "get" anyone yet im treated like a fox in a hen house.

It does admittedly get frustrating.

[Wags]

It's frustrating to be asked the same question over and over because the person asking either isn't listening or apparently doesn't like the answer.

But if it makes you feel better go ahead and blame me for your lack of manners. :sigh:

[Lulav]

Yes i admit THAT post was a little controversial. But I had been putting up with wags bringing up Jewish persecution and inserting it into several conversations that have NOTHING to do with antisemitism for a while at that point. I lost a bit of control.

But Generally I am not a confrontational Person, and I get frustrated when everyone assumes i have an ulterior motive. I'm not out to "get" anyone yet im treated like a fox in a hen house.

It does admittedly get frustrating.Cola, I understand your frustration, but also understand that if it stems from not receiving the answer you want or can accept, we may get frustrated too. Right now I am experiencing A S persecution from Christians that were once 'Messianic' because I am Jewish. And for most Jews this is an ongoing thing, especially to those obviously Jewish, for reasons you may not be able to understand. But it is part of our lives in every part, so it isn't a derailment to talk about this.

[A_Pioneer]

Maybe not a Fox in the Henhouse, but you want us all to become Christian. From my POV almost the same as a Fox in the Henhouse.

My question to you is why do you come to the closest thing to Yeshua's teachings rather than go unify the 3,500 denominations of your beloved Christianity?
Fix them and come join with others of the Way!

Shalom

[Colabomb]

That's the point Pioneer. I'm not trying to change anything. I'm not trying to "make" anyone Christian. I'm not trying to remove your Jewish Beliefs and Traditions. I'm simply arguing that as you are, you are a Christian.

But for some reason so many here find that offensive. So i give up.

[Lulav]

That is a shame cola, I was hoping you would answer some of the many questions I posed. Did you read my post #49? An eye is not a hand. But they are part of the same body. They aren't all called 'body' they each have a name. :)

[Colabomb]

That is a shame cola, I was hoping you would answer some of the many questions I posed. Did you read my post #49? An eye is not a hand. But they are part of the same body. They aren't all called 'body' they each have a name. :)

I believe that that passage has less to do with divisions amongst denominations/theologies, but rather the roles in the Church/Community.

In that passage he goes on to speak about the different jobs and gifts God has given the various members of the body, the preachers, the teachers, the prophets the healers etc.

It has nothing to do with a supposed separation between Jews and Gentiles.

God desires unity.

And someone commented earlier that I am not working amongst the various Christian denominations. Actually I am. You do not know me.
We (myself and my family), have friends and contacts amongst the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, the Baptists, the Presbyterians etc. We treat each other as Christians regardless of our (sometimes fairly strong) theological differences.

I take joy in the fact that all who confess Christ and have been baptised, regardless of denomination, are welcome to the table. Anglicanism is actually one of the most ecumenical forms of Christianity on the earth. We recognize our brothers we recognize the sheep of our Father.

We don't call ourselves by another name to set ourselves apart from our brothers. We have a different Tradition and some different beliefs, butt at the end of the day, a Baptist, a Catholic and an Anglican can call each other Christian, we can call each other by the same name and recognize Christ in each other.

It seems to me that many (but not necessarily al) messianics are in the business of highlighting our differences.

It is not necessarily just the name that bothers me. Its the attitude. "Your Not us, We aren't you."

It seems to me in Scripture paul was saying the opposite.

[Wags]

I don't think Paul was envisioning a people that had turned their back on the Divine Instructions.

In your view all the world should be Christians - in mine all the world should be Messianic. :)

[Colabomb]

I don't think Paul was envisioning a people that had turned their back on the Divine Instructions.

In your view all the world should be Christians - in mine all the world should be Messianic. :)

You are still creating a false dichotomy. Even if you are right and we are supposed to be torah observant.

You are still by definition a Christian.

But, again concernign divine commandments. How many homosexuals has your community Stoned this week?

You do kill your children when they fail to show you proper respect right?

Go build the temple, if its God's will then He will bless you and create for you the opportunity to do so.


With all due Respect if you are under the law you are under all of it. Please stop judging others for not obeying the law you yourself are disobedient to.

[Lulav]

I think you nailed the problem right there. You got angry and replied that we are under the law and we are being disobedient to it. Yet you don't want to follow and obey and yet you believe you are not sinning. Does that sound like you are saying we are the same and you consider us brothers/sisters?

What you don't or won't ( I think it's the later) understnad is we are not UNDER anything, the law doesn't save us, that was a gift, but to show our thankfulness and love to the one who did this for us, we joyfully are obedient to the laws that pertain individually outside the land of Israel. And that basically means we keep the Sabbath holy. We eat what HaShem tells us is clean for us and holy for us to eat. And we keep family purity, as well as commemorate the appointed feasts as best we can without the temple and without living in the land as HaShem set up for us to do when these things weren't available. The laws you keep bringing up and hitting us over the head with , don't fall into those catagories, so please stop, you really don't know how silly and ignorant of the Torah you are making yourself look. Why don' t you try to read through the Torah without the glasses that say ' the law was nailed to the cross' and ask the L-RD to open up his word to you and give you understanding and wisdom concerning this.

I am not saying that you should come away doing those things I listed above that we do, but I would hope you could see how you should be obeying at the minimum the Acts 15 rulings that were handed down to gentiles. I dont' think very many Christians do even this little .

Personally I don't think you should do all we do, because you aren't Jewish, but there are some things that were decided you should do, and those I think you should. If you ever decide to bind yoursefl to Israel like Ruth did, that will change things, but until then, I would concentrate on the Acts 15 four, which are really a lot more than just 4, but it's a start. :)

[Colabomb]

I think you nailed the problem right there. You got angry and replied that we are under the law and we are being disobedient to it. Yet you don't want to follow and obey and yet you believe you are not sinning. Does that sound like you are saying we are the same and you consider us brothers/sisters?

No you misunderstood me (and i wasn't really angry when i posted that). I don't believe anyone is under the law anymore, unless they put themselves under it. Paul writes about that in Romans.

I believe neither Jew or Greek is under obligation to follow the Torah. (though they may choose to if they wish).

My arguement is that wags thinks we should all follow the law (i know you don't agree with her) or we are disobeying the will of God. She judges us quite harshly for not obeying it. However no one has truly lived by the law since the destruction of the second temple.

She is my sister, Torah Abiding or not.



What you don't or won't ( I think it's the later) understnad is we are not UNDER anything, the law doesn't save us, that was a gift, but to show our thankfulness and love to the one who did this for us, we joyfully are obedient to the laws that pertain individually outside the land of Israel. And that basically means we keep the Sabbath holy. We eat what HaShem tells us is clean for us and holy for us to eat. And we keep family purity, as well as commemorate the appointed feasts as best we can without the temple and without living in the land as HaShem set up for us to do when these things weren't available. The laws you keep bringing up and hitting us over the head with , don't fall into those catagories, so please stop, you really don't know how silly and ignorant of the Torah you are making yourself look. Why don' t you try to read through the Torah without the glasses that say ' the law was nailed to the cross' and ask the L-RD to open up his word to you and give you understanding and wisdom concerning this.

I am not saying that you should come away doing those things I listed above that we do, but I would hope you could see how you should be obeying at the minimum the Acts 15 rulings that were handed down to gentiles. I dont' think very many Christians do even this little .

Personally I don't think you should do all we do, because you aren't Jewish, but there are some things that were decided you should do, and those I think you should. If you ever decide to bind yoursefl to Israel like Ruth did, that will change things, but until then, I would concentrate on the Acts 15 four, which are really a lot more than just 4, but it's a start. :)you make quite a few assumptions about my character here. Could you perhaps look at me without the lense of "ignorant gentile"?

[Colabomb]

I am losing my control as a christian, im taking time away.

[Ivy]

You are still creating a false dichotomy. Even if you are right and we are supposed to be torah observant.

You are still by definition a Christian.



Again, it has to do with how the word Christian is being used.

If Christian = believes in the deity and atoning work of Yeshua and in the Trinity, and if she believes in these things, then Wags is a Christian.

However if Christian = the above, plus (for instance) worships on Sunday, celebrates Christmas and the Resurrection, does not use food restrictions, then Wags is not a Christian.

It depends, first of all, on the definition that's being used.

Most Messianics, I suppose, adhere to basic beliefs that could be described as Christian, but most do not describe themselves by the term Christian, because to them Christian also means a whole range of Christian practice.........and they use a different practice.

[A_Pioneer]

You are still creating a false dichotomy. Even if you are right and we are supposed to be torah observant.

You are still by definition a Christian.

But, again concernign divine commandments. How many homosexuals has your community Stoned this week?

You do kill your children when they fail to show you proper respect right?

Go build the temple, if its God's will then He will bless you and create for you the opportunity to do so.


With all due Respect if you are under the law you are under all of it. Please stop judging others for not obeying the law you yourself are disobedient to.
And you miss the point that Yeshua said that those who do the will of the Father enter into the Kingdom, if you can show one scripture where one "Lawless Christian" enters the Kingdom I'll go along with your idea of unity.

I am hereby saying to you that you don't have to obey one commandment to be saved! But! Show me where a Christian without the Law enters the city by it's gates.

Really there is a difference! Search the scriptures and see how easy it is to be saved. Then check them again for entry into the kingdom. I was taught just like you.
But read it yourself without the blinders on, there are two sets of information, you put all of them in one basket, but they don't fit. When you get off the sea of D'nile, you will see clearly that commandment keepers and those who are just saved are very different.

Shalom

[Kris10leigh]

The mediator in me is taking over my brain with this post! ^_^

This is like one of those discussions we have at work that make for endless meetings. The group I meet with monthly like to discuss topics for which Member X must be present, but Member X isn't there. Yet we still discuss the issue. Drives me nuts! The issue CAN'T be solved because Member X isn't there!

I see good points being made by all. Can we just say, "Huh...I didn't see it that way" yet continue to throw enlightening pieces of information?

[Wags]

My arguement is that wags thinks we should all follow the law (i know you don't agree with her) or we are disobeying the will of God. She judges us quite harshly for not obeying it. However no one has truly lived by the law since the destruction of the second temple.

Yes I believe scripture "there shall be one law for the native and for the foreigner".... but I fail to see where the simple statement of my beliefs is" harsh judgment" on anyone. Of course if the statement of my beliefs causes your conscience to be pricked, then that isn't my doing, it is the work of the Ruach HaKodesh.

I believe Pioneer already touched on the following:


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'

[Skeeterbug]

But that is a very superficial use of the term. You obviously know little about your gentile Brothers.

Christian simply means a follower of the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth. That includes Jewish Believers whether you accept it or not.

Also, I do not Worship the Cross. I am not an idolator and I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about what i believe.

You have already called me and my Gentile Brothers persecutors, I would appreciate it if you would see us as brothers rather than enemies.

This is the very separation of brothers that disturbs me.
I know more about gentiles than you will ever know . do not make assumptions about me . youi know what bugs me is Hashem gave promises to us the jews and I for one am sick and tired of the church always saying that Hashem turned his back on us and that the promises are theirs. which in my opinion is stealing. I have no problems with Christians who accept me for what I am but I get awfully tired of them always telling me that I need to give up my faith and way of life. why does the church have a problem with MJ's who want to keep their jewishness. why does the Church expect us to give up G-d created things to folllow man made things in case anyone doesn't realize this when Yeshua comes back there will be a new Jerusalem not a new cleaveland.

[Skeeterbug]

I have never in my life met a person who worships the cross. Can you provide a reference?
Gee maybe it's because you have songs about the cross there are crosses all over churches, you wear crosses. if memory serves me right there is a song called that wonerful cross. well i bet if you asked someone who was crucified if it was wonderful they wouln't think so. why bring up the cross constantly why not bring up the reserection thousands died on crosses but only one reserected

[Skeeterbug]

then you haven't had much exposure to how many Christians feel about Torah.

"It has been done away with, nailed to the cross"

"If you are following the law then you spit on G-ds grace"

"Torah ( the law) is for the Jews, I have freedom from that"

Really , go out there on the forums and look at any discussion about the Torah and you will see what I mean.

You say there shouldn't be any separation between Jew and gentile believers, but it has really always been the gentile ones who have made this distinction. Do you know how many Jews came to belief in their Jewish Messiah by gentiles, only to be told they were no longer Jewish and to stop doing those 'Jewish things' that they were free from them?

Basically we don't like being told to stop disobeying the L-RD, and we are not being told this by heathens, but those that say they worship the same G-d, Ironic, eh?
Yes yes yes you said it. let me add some things. I have had Christians tell me that I didn't believe in Yeshua because I refuse to put up a Christmas tree which is pegan. I have told this because I don't die easter eggs which is another pegan ritual. also being told constantly the OT is dead and that Hashem has turned his back on us. What is funny is not many Christians know much or understand Judaism but yet they have alot to stay what they think jews should do.

[Skeeterbug]

No. paul said not to Judge based on religious observances and holidays and the like. Go on, follow torah if you will. I will not Judge you for it.

However all I ask is that you return the favor.

We both have the freedom to choose. If following torah law strengthens your faith, by all means sister follow. Tell anyone who has a problem with it to mind their own business.

But then do not go and Judge them for their non observance.



Antisemitism does exist today. However it is not part and parcel of mainstream christianity like many on this forum seem to think. I have never heard a sermon about "the evil Jews" or been told that it was a sin for Jews to honor their heritage and keep the law.

The Christian faith I am taught decries racism in all its forms. The Jews, the Greeks, the Africans, the Europeans etc, all are one in Christ Jesus. We are to respect our differences and rejoice in our shared faith in Christ. We also know our Savior to be a Jew. To hate the Jews would be to hate our Savior.

Instead of accusing the entire Christian Church of antisemitism. Why do we not work together to purge true antisemitism out of the Church? It is a Minority anyway.

Can you give me examples of the antisemitism you face daily as you said? (I was not aware you were Jewish.)
that would be hard to do since alot of the anti semitism in churches comes from the pulput. there is even Christian preachers on tv that preach antisemitism. in fact one preacher on tv calls jews an abominaiton. To be honest with you I think you have a problem when it comes to what people label themselves. why don't you be glad we all Worship the same G-d. you are so hung up on labels,

[Skeeterbug]

I want to add some things and that is We are not under the penalty or curse of the law but we choose to follow it. The other thing is When Yeshua was on the earth there was no such word as Christ. Hashem told the Jews that we were to be seperate people not of the world. He also we are not to mix G-d of Isreal with peganism or demons. but some Christian holidays are full of peganism. if you do not believe me read up on the history of Christmas and Easter. I follow G-ds instructions not mans

[Ivy]

I know more about gentiles than you will ever know . I have no problems with Christians who accept me for what I am but I get awfully tired of them always telling me that I need to give up my faith and way of life. why does the church have a problem with MJ's who want to keep their jewishness.

Maybe you mean that you have many times been on the receiving end of stupid statements & inappropriate treatment from Christians/Gentiles, and that you know more about how that feels than Cola or I could.......? I was a little perplexed by the first statement there.

Christians who tell you that you, as a Jewish believer, need to give up your faith and your way of life, who have a problem with you keeping your Jewishness, can be described in one word: WRONG. They're wrong. It's the product of bad teaching, and replacement theology is a h-e-r-e-s-y, and you are owed a big apology for it.

If I'm not mistaken, Cola's branch of Christianity does NOT hold to replacement theology, though he can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ivy]

Yes I believe scripture "there shall be one law for the native and for the foreigner".... but I fail to see where the simple statement of my beliefs is" harsh judgment" on anyone. Of course if the statement of my beliefs causes your conscience to be pricked, then that isn't my doing, it is the work of the Ruach HaKodesh.


Something I observe many times in human nature is that when Person A realizes that Person B objects to their viewpoint, Person A takes this as an indication that they are an agent of the Holy Spirit. No possibility that Person B could be an agent of the Holy Spirt, of course, just Person A. :holy:

This other is of course a classic One Law statement. The Scripture that's being quoted here was to be applied within the boundaries of the nation Israel, and is no different than saying, "If you live in the U.S., you will obey the law of the land in the U.S."

People of either Gentile or Jewish descent of course can choose to apply that Scripture in a broader way to themselves, but their doing so doesn't make their interpretation binding on others or necessarily a work of the Holy Spirit.

[Wags]

This other is of course a classic One Law statement. The Scripture that's being quoted here was to be applied within the boundaries of the nation Israel, and is no different than saying, "If you live in the U.S., you will obey the law of the land in the

Isaiah 56 doesn't mention any land boundaries - it says those from the nations that have bound themselves to Adonai to love and serve Him.

[Ivy]

That's true, it doesn't mention land boundaries by name, but the context is the Jewish nation, which in fact does have certain physical boundaries.