I need help proving my friend's theory wrong.

[ps139]

Hi Everyone,:wave:

I do not usually come around here, but today I'm in here because I am seeking your help, I do not know a better place to look. At work I meet with a group of fellow Christians every Tuesday for lunch, and to read a little bit from the Bible and talk about it. We are a small but mixed group of Catholics and Protestants.
One of the guys had this theory yesterday which is just the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I actually think its irreverent. I can argue against it from a Catholic POV but he is Fundamentalist and so its no use for me to try. So I am asking you, how would you, as Fundamentalist/Bible only Christians, show my friend that he is wrong - with arguments straight from the Bible?
Here is what he said:
(we were on the topic of bi-location)

"I am saved right now, and so I am a saint. My mother passed away a year ago. She is in Heaven. Since I am a saint/saved, maybe I am in heaven too right now, conversing with her. I could be in both places at once."

OK as you can see this is utterly ridiculous. And I think it all stems from that fact that he really, really misses his mother and is desperate for contact with her, and this seems to be his only "theologically sound" justification.....

I asked him, "If you were in Heaven, dont you think you'd know it?"

Anyway, what do you guys think. How can I argue against this from a purely biblical perspective. The Catholic approach is meaningless to him, and the common sense approach (the question I asked him) didnt do anything, he said this belief didnt contradict the Bible. I dont think a belief like this is going to send anyone to hell but he is my friend and he is in serious error and I want to help him out.

I appreciate any responses, especially with specific Bible verses.
Thanks!

[twistedsketch]

Well, he's right about being a saint, but not about being in Heaven and conversing with Mom.

I would have him read Revelation 21 and 22, especially 21:4

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

If he's getting that today, I want him to hook me up!

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

This one is really simple actually. We cannot get into heaven save but by Christ, as heaven is in the Father's presence.
John 14:6
We are not judged until we die:
Hebrews 9:27
Therefore we cannot be in heaven until we have died and been judged. There are also plethora references to the spirit leaving the body once we are dead if need those.

[LynneClomina]

Hi Everyone,:wave:

I do not usually come around here, but today I'm in here because I am seeking your help, I do not know a better place to look. At work I meet with a group of fellow Christians every Tuesday for lunch, and to read a little bit from the Bible and talk about it. We are a small but mixed group of Catholics and Protestants.
One of the guys had this theory yesterday which is just the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I actually think its irreverent. I can argue against it from a Catholic POV but he is Fundamentalist and so its no use for me to try. So I am asking you, how would you, as Fundamentalist/Bible only Christians, show my friend that he is wrong - with arguments straight from the Bible?
Here is what he said:
(we were on the topic of bi-location)

"I am saved right now, and so I am a saint. My mother passed away a year ago. She is in Heaven. Since I am a saint/saved, maybe I am in heaven too right now, conversing with her. I could be in both places at once."

OK as you can see this is utterly ridiculous. And I think it all stems from that fact that he really, really misses his mother and is desperate for contact with her, and this seems to be his only "theologically sound" justification.....

I asked him, "If you were in Heaven, dont you think you'd know it?"

Anyway, what do you guys think. How can I argue against this from a purely biblical perspective. The Catholic approach is meaningless to him, and the common sense approach (the question I asked him) didnt do anything, he said this belief didnt contradict the Bible. I dont think a belief like this is going to send anyone to hell but he is my friend and he is in serious error and I want to help him out.

I appreciate any responses, especially with specific Bible verses.
Thanks!
well, we ARE seated in heavenly places...

it's one thing to think of heaven as being somewhere "out there", but if God is in heaven, but He is everywhere too, being omnipresent, then heaven is everywhere too. we can't see it. we can't sense it. but we also cant see and feel our spirit bodies either, can we? we are seated here, in front of our computers, but our spirits are seated in heavenly places.... and yet here. our spirit is in communion with God in so many ways we do not comprehend becuase it is a spiritual things, only sometimes do they spring into our conscience. considering that his mom is in heaven, probably his spirit and hers are BOTH busy worshipping God, but i dont know how much talkin' they do together. i dont know hw much talking any of us will to in heaven with each other. :D

so ya, i think it's a stretch into extra-biblical thought, BUT not entirely UNbiblical in the sense that we do not know what are spirits are aware of in the spirit realsm.

ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[ps139]

Lynne I think my friend is more of your school of thought. I am more in line with what flesh99 was saying. This is interesting.

[BarbB]

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. [7] We live by faith, not by sight. [8] We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

How's that? Also, but I can't find it "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Actually, the above verse is probably better!

[BarbB]

PS139 - don't listen to Lynne - she's sweet but whacky! :P

[Paula]

ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Hi, Lynne - Don't you think this sense of communion referred to in the verse you quoted comes from the Holy Spirit which brings us together in Christ Jesus? This is what Jesus said to his disciples before his Ascension:


John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

. . . And I think it all stems from that fact that he really, really misses his mother and is desperate for contact with her, and this seems to be his only "theologically sound" justification.....

Hi, ps 139 - I think your take on this is correct. Your friend sounds grief-stricken, and very often after losing a close loved one, some people do experience this sort of wishful thinking.

[twistedsketch]

well, we ARE seated in heavenly places...

ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

As for being seated in the Heavenly realms, yes you are right but we are not physically in Heaven yet. I think that is more of a "status in God's eyes" than a physical manifestation. That is a matter worth studying, though, it is a puzzling passage.

[The Lord is my banner]

ps139

I can see your dilemma.

I see what Lynne means, and agree we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ, (how wonderful!), but also would be really worried about a Christian who claims they are talking to people who have died.
That is strictly forbidden in the Bible, and I'd be itching to warn them of the dangers.

However, if this is a grief reaction as some suggest, and sounds very likely to me, then it is most likely to pass in time, provided he is supported and treated gently.
It may even be counterproductive to pursue it, causing him distress and pushing him deeper into this refuge, which is the last thing you want.

You have already expressed your concern that this is unbiblical, so maybe let it rest between him and the Holy Spirit now?
Keep him in your prayers, asking that God show him the truth and give him real comfort in place of this illusion.

If he brings it up again, can you try to steer the conversation gently onto something more edifying? Your avoidance of the subject might settle in his mind and cause him to question himself later.

A dear lady I know had this down to a fine art - without arguing or drawing attention to my daft remarks as a new Christian she would somehow convey by her "closed face" that she didn't want to get involved in a discussion about something. I never felt anyone else was alerted to my error, yet she would guide the conversation somehow, so that after I'd gone home the incident arose in my mind, and I knew I needed to think carefully about whatever it was, or ask her away from the group.

Just a different approach to consider, but really it depends so much on his personality and the group dynamics how you handle it.

God bless, Susana

[theseed]

"I am saved right now, and so I am a saint. My mother passed away a year ago. She is in Heaven. Since I am a saint/saved, maybe I am in heaven too right now, conversing with her. I could be in both places at once."

A = he is saved

B = his mother is saved and in heaven

C = he is in heaven too

If A = B and B = C, then A = C;

However, since A does not equal B, hence he has not established that he is in heaven, then he can't be with his mother.

Also, the bible says that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

[ps139]

Thats great logic Seed. Good logic made very simple. And that Bible verse is key! Thanks newlamb!
I think if he talks about it more then I might bring it up. I dont know if he will though...when he started we got into this big Catholic /Protestant debate about the Communion of Saints...then he mentioned to me later that he didnt mean to cause that....funny thing is he thinks I'm a Fundamentalist :). So he might bring it up with me in private. If not I might decide to talk about the verse maybe he will put 2 and 2 together. If you think I'm taking the wrong course of action here please let me know.

[BarbB]

Ah ha! A fundie Catholic! :clap:

I think you have the right idea, ps139. Also, Susana's posts today have been fantastic - very wise and compassionate! Let us know what happens!

[LynneClomina]

PS139 - don't listen to Lynne - she's sweet but whacky! :P
:rolleyes:

:hug:

[LynneClomina]

As for being seated in the Heavenly realms, yes you are right but we are not physically in Heaven yet. I think that is more of a "status in God's eyes" than a physical manifestation. That is a matter worth studying, though, it is a puzzling passage.
yah, we're not there physically, i totally agree with that. but i think spiritually we ARE. but in our present physical state we do not see the spiritual realm, at least not usually, and we arent usually even aware of what is happening within our OWN spirit - where God is healing us, or bringing revelation - until it manifests in the physical realm - ie. our conscious mind and emotions. so what i was saying is I AM IN HEAVENLY PLACES with Christ in the spirit - and i have no idea what's going on while i'm in His presence. i see through a glass darkly - about ALL spiritual things.

i'm in no way saying that i'm talking to my dead grammie, i'm just saying that it's a mystery what all our spirits ARE doing in the presence of God. :)

[LynneClomina]

"I am saved right now, and so I am a saint. My mother passed away a year ago. She is in Heaven. Since I am a saint/saved, maybe I am in heaven too right now, conversing with her. I could be in both places at once."

A = he is saved

B = his mother is saved and in heaven

C = he is in heaven too

If A = B and B = C, then A = C;

However, since A does not equal B, hence he has not established that he is in heaven, then he can't be with his mother.

Also, the bible says that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
aye, in a full, conscious sense. this verse cannot nullify the other, of being in heavenly places with Christ, or that would make one or the other verse wrong!

i'm afraid i dont understand the logic above. :sigh:

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

aye, in a full, conscious sense. this verse cannot nullify the other, of being in heavenly places with Christ, or that would make one or the other verse wrong!

i'm afraid i dont understand the logic above. :sigh:

The verse refering to being seated in Heavenly places refers to our standing with God, not any presence right now. There are too many verses refering to being absent the body and present with God for it to mean something different. We are not in His physical presence, i.e. in Heaven with Him until we have passed from this earth.


Phillipians 1: 20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.


Paul shows here that while we are in Christ we are not WITH him in Heaven. Our standing is "seated in Heavenly places". To tkae that literally cannot be correct. You would also have to take literally that we are in Christ and He is in us. We know that Christ is not "in" us in a physical sense of the word, but the we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However strange it may seem there are plenty of verses that prove that our souls/spirits are confined to our bodies while we are alive. I can post more of them if need be.

[twistedsketch]

Yes. The whole context of the first two chapters of Ephesians is our status in God's eyes anyway. For example, "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Eph 2:1). Dead? What does he mean by dead? Possibly the same thing the Father says about us after we've returned to Him? "But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' " (Luke 15:32).

I believe Paul is using symbolic language to show us what God literally did for us. Ephesians 1 and 2 show the power of the cross and the extent of God's love. As soon as we believed, we were given status as His children. Yes, we could be considered "in God's presence" because He is omnipresent, and He is open to us now, but that is nothing like Heaven and really being in God's presence. This topic needs a lot more research from me before I can do it justice though.

[jcright]

I've NEVER heard this line of thinking before (and I originated from a pretty whack cult).

I'm curious to know, what scriptural evidence does he give to support his "theory"?

[LynneClomina]

The verse refering to being seated in Heavenly places refers to our standing with God, not any presence right now. There are too many verses refering to being absent the body and present with God for it to mean something different. We are not in His physical presence, i.e. in Heaven with Him until we have passed from this earth.
i agree, we are not in His physical presence; only spiritual.


Paul shows here that while we are in Christ we are not WITH him in Heaven.physically, no. spiritually, yes. i believe that my spirit is with Jesus in the Heavenlies, but i still desire to leave this body and REALLY be WITH Him in a physical AND spiritual sense, fully aware of being with Him. as it is now, i am not. i have glimpses of knowing that He is here, but i do not see it in the physical realm. Our standing is "seated in Heavenly places". To tkae that literally cannot be correct. You would also have to take literally that we are in Christ and He is in us. why? spiritually, i AM in the heavenlies. spiritually, i AM in Christ. spiritually, He IS in me. spiritually, i am one member of His body. spiritually, i LIVE AND BREATHE AND HAVE MY BEING *IN* Him. we live on two planes of reality - physical and spiritual, and i think we too often confuse the two. to be PHYSICALLY in the body is to be PHYSICALLY ABSENT from the Lord. and to be PHYSICALLY in HIs presence we thus logically have to be PHYSICALLY absent from the Body. but my spirit is not resident in my body, it is resident with Christ in heavenly places; yet *I* am ME (spirit and soul) IN my body. the heavenlies are not "out there" somewhere, they are all around us. that is why sometimes the "veil" is opened between the two and for example, Jacob's ladder, happens. or like then they saw the army of the Lord around them and were encouraged by seeing the spiritual reality that was right there.

i see absolutely NO conflict. We know that Christ is not "in" us in a physical sense of the word, but the we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However strange it may seem there are plenty of verses that prove that our souls/spirits are confined to our bodies while we are alive. I can post more of them if need be.

[Paula]

"I am saved right now, and so I am a saint. My mother passed away a year ago. She is in Heaven. Since I am a saint/saved, maybe I am in heaven too right now, conversing with her. I could be in both places at once."
This part of your friend's statement still concerns me, and I was wondering how long he has been this way. He might still be in some form of shock or denial, which is the first stage of grief. But if you feel he's been grieving too long, or even stuck in a certain stage, grief counseling might be in order. Many Christian churches provide this service free of charge. That might be the way to go should your efforts to reason with him fail after a reasonable period of time.

Briefly, there are five stages of grief:

(1) Denial - The person refuses to believe or accept what has happened, and tells themselves that all is as it was before the loved one died. They act as if it never happened, and may even feel the loved one is still with them. They may feel out of touch with the real world and experience a feeling of unreality (or shock).

( 2) Anger - The person may blame themselves, others, or even God for their loss. They may become short-tempered or easily agitated by minor things.

(3) Bargaining - The person may bargain with themselves or with God. They may try to make a deal to take away the reality of what has happened.

(4) Depression - Often expressed by tearfulness, intense pangs and outbursts of grief, reclusiveness, fatigue, sleeplessness, perhaps even guilt, loss of purpose in life, panic, forgetfulness, or possibly even physical symptoms such as stomach upset and headaches, may occur. Thoughts of suicide would indicate professional counseling is necessary.

(5) Acceptance of their loss, and realization that life will still go on. Thoughts of the lost loved one become less intense and less frequent. The person regains their clarity of thought and energy and still pursues their future goals as they did before the loss. As time passes, the person's feelings are tempered more with good memories than sadness.

Not everyone experiences and handles grief the same way, so there may be some variation in the intensity of emotions, the length of time and order in which they are experienced, depending upon the circumstances of the death, i.e., a the loss of a child, vs. an elderly person, etc.

[ps139]

To be honest I do not know what stage he is in. He might be the nicest guy at my office building and he always is cheerful (on the outside). The type of guy who sings as he walks down the halls, says "Hi, enjooooy your evening!" to everyone he sees whether he knows them or not, and wouldn't hurt a fly. I feel bad for him because I think he gets ridiculed down in the mailroom because he is so open about his faith. Basically he is the kind of guy who either brightens your day, or makes you think "whats wrong with that weirdo???" I guess depending on what type of person you are....

[ps139]

i agree, we are not in His physical presence; only spiritual.physically, no. spiritually, yes. i believe that my spirit is with Jesus in the Heavenlies, but i still desire to leave this body and REALLY be WITH Him in a physical AND spiritual sense, fully aware of being with Him. as it is now, i am not. i have glimpses of knowing that He is here, but i do not see it in the physical realm. why? spiritually, i AM in the heavenlies. spiritually, i AM in Christ. spiritually, He IS in me. spiritually, i am one member of His body. spiritually, i LIVE AND BREATHE AND HAVE MY BEING *IN* Him. we live on two planes of reality - physical and spiritual, and i think we too often confuse the two. to be PHYSICALLY in the body is to be PHYSICALLY ABSENT from the Lord. and to be PHYSICALLY in HIs presence we thus logically have to be PHYSICALLY absent from the Body. but my spirit is not resident in my body, it is resident with Christ in heavenly places; yet *I* am ME (spirit and soul) IN my body. the heavenlies are not "out there" somewhere, they are all around us. that is why sometimes the "veil" is opened between the two and for example, Jacob's ladder, happens. or like then they saw the army of the Lord around them and were encouraged by seeing the spiritual reality that was right there.

i see absolutely NO conflict.
Hmmm I am not allowed to debate in here but I hope you dont mind if I ask a few questions:

How is your spirit in your body AND in Heaven? I would guess that if one could bi-locate s/he would be fully aware of being at both places at once.

When you pass on from this earthly life, but before the Resurrection of the Body, do you believe that the only change is that you lose your body, and your spirit stays in the same place?

Do you believe that Heaven and earth exist in the same dimension?

[LynneClomina]

Hmmm I am not allowed to debate in here but I hope you dont mind if I ask a few questions:

How is your spirit in your body AND in Heaven? I would guess that if one could bi-locate s/he would be fully aware of being at both places at once.i dont see a need to bi-locate because heaven isnt a physical location, it is spiritual. i dont see the need to rationalize that my spirit is bound by the same limitations as my earthly body. i am CONSCIOUS only of what goes on in my earthly body, not my spiritual. i am aware of what goes on in my soul (ie. mind/will/emotions) but not in my spirit. i have BEEN raised up with Him in heavenly places. it's a mystery to the human mind, but just becuase i cannot understand it doesnt mean it's not true.
When you pass on from this earthly life, but before the Resurrection of the Body, do you believe that the only change is that you lose your body, and your spirit stays in the same place?i think i fall asleep from the physical reality and wake up to the spiritual. yes, i lose my body but i dont have to "go" to the heavenlies, i'm already there. i think when i wake up there maybe i'll be fully aware of all that happened with my spirit in the heavenlies while i was only aware of the physical realm.... :scratch:

have you ever read up on the two-dimensional people? the Flatlanders, that's what they were called. if i can find a link to something i post it, it really is good at explaining dimensions (yes, its theoretical physics) but it's a great analogy for the physical/spiritual connection. :)
Do you believe that Heaven and earth exist in the same dimension?
yes and no. Flatlanders is a great analogy for how they co-exist and cross, but do not "conjoin"... i'll go see what i can find on flatlanders now.

i dont think i'm a flake, but you dont have to put any stock in what i say, any more than i have to put any stock in what you say! ;) but i thank you for not just dismissing me! :hug:

[snoopyloopysk8a]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. Therefore, his mother couldn't know if he was talking to her. If she didn't know, then she can't carry on a conversation.

[LynneClomina]

flatlanders pages:

http://members.aol.com/InWordJourney/5th4.htm -really clear illustrations.

http://www.returntogod.com/Science/Dimensions.htm -good overview.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/cen_v21n2_timespace.asp

this one is interesting, although they theorize into areas i dont even go to! ;) http://www.capital.net/com/docrobb/chpter10.html

[The Lord is my banner]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing. Therefore, his mother couldn't know if he was talking to her. If she didn't know, then she can't carry on a conversation.

But the Christian is not dead in that sense even after his body has died, because he is eternally alive in spirit.

I agree though that there is no communication to us from Christians who are now resting with the Lord, or vice versa.

It wouldn't be a very peaceful experience in heaven if we still had contact with the suffering of the world we had just left!

God bless, Susana

[Paula]

To be honest I do not know what stage he is in. He might be the nicest guy at my office building and he always is cheerful (on the outside). The type of guy who sings as he walks down the halls, says "Hi, enjooooy your evening!" to everyone he sees whether he knows them or not, and wouldn't hurt a fly. I feel bad for him because I think he gets ridiculed down in the mailroom because he is so open about his faith. Basically he is the kind of guy who either brightens your day, or makes you think "whats wrong with that weirdo???" I guess depending on what type of person you are....
Sounds like you know him fairly well, and your interest in his situation is reassuring to me. Just a couple of questions though. First, did he have this same belief before his mother passed away? Second, is bilocation the same phoenomenon as astral projection? Perhaps he dabbled with this sort of thing before.

[PaladinGirl]

I honestly think the very idea of "bi-location" is kind of New Agey and stinks of Occult influences but that is just my opinion. I know where I am at. I am sitting at my computer in my apartment and I am nowhere else at the same time either. I hate so sound rude by saying that "bi-location" seems to be kind of New Agey and possibly Occultic but that is just the idea I get of it. I used to be involved in both the Occult and Wicca so I have a little experience with the ideas of Occult/New Age teachings and this just smacks of Occult and/or New Age teachings.

[ChiRho]

Did Christ say to the thief hung next to Him,

"You are already in Paradise with Me now?"

or

Luke 23
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (1) Paradise."

Pax Christi,

ChiRho