The frail commandment

[Eila]

Were the TEN commandments nailed to the cross? Because if I was to believe the various arguments out there supporting this something weird happens. Only one of them dies. This of course happens to be the fourth one. All the rest however, whether we live under them, on top of them or beside them are still adhered too. It doesnt matter how you say you keep them as a Christian you still do and you would probably not be happy seeing people not keeping these commandments.

If the ten commandments were truely nailed to the cross why are they not all deleted? And by deleting I don't just mean the relabeling with many words and thinking we actually changed something.

So really when in essence someone says "The ten commandements were nailed to the cross" What they really mean is... I'm going to forget about the fourth commandment. Because honestly that's pretty much all it boils down no matter how long and elaborate the arguments are.

The old covenant law including the 10 commandments was fulfilled in Christ. We aren't under any of those commands anymore, but new commands. Some Christians do cling to the 10 commandments minus the 4th, but many understand the fulfillment of the old covenant and the dispensing of the new covenant.

1 John 3 "21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

If you love one another by default you aren't murdering, stealing, etc. But agape loving one another is not even close to "thou shalt not steal" or "thou shalt not commit adultery". The standard for the born-again Christian is much higher.


There is no command in the new covenant to love God. We love Him because He first loved us. It comes naturally. If you choose to demonstrate that love by keeping the Sabbath holy you have that freedom. I think we should be careful when we judge other Christians regarding that issue though as the Bible warns about that.

Romans 14 "4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way."



Colossians 2 "16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

[Eila]

Then that leads to a new argument. They say that all the other 9 commandments were reinstructed in the new testament. I guess when Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath he was not admonishing that people keep the Sabbath.

Although the New Testament starts with Matthew, the new covenant (testament) wasn't fully given until Pentecost.

Old covenant:

Given 50 days after deliverance from Egypt
3000 people died
Law was given

New covenant (on the anniversary of the giving of the old covenant):

Given 50 days after deliverance from sin
3000 people were born again
Holy Spirit was given

Hebrews 12 "18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.
20For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED."
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel."

[honorthesabbath]

Amen Cap--I agree.

It's like when I see these people who either say, "In Christ alone" or "No Creed but Christ", I'm always left wondering--What exactly do they mean by that? In what way does their 'belief' about Christ differ from mine?

Do they have no principles by which they live , 'in Christ alone"? And what do they do with these texts?....

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I don't know Cap--but I just think that those who want to try to abolish God's commandments have an issue with not only obedience, but with authority. I think that they, like Frank Sinatra want to do it their way.

The other thing that has always fascinated me is this. The bible says that Jesus is 'the WORD made flesh'. We know that that WORD is Who wrote the 10c with His own hand--IN STONE. The word stone signifying permanence. IOW--the 10c ARE the law of Christ--He wrote them.

Jesus even said that He did NOT come to destroy God's law. But now we have people who insist that He did!

Now I just can not reconcile these texts I posted above, with the 'handwriting in stone and Jesus's own words stating that He did NOT come to destroy the law with those who make the erroneous claim that His death did just that.

As Johnny Cochran said, "It if doesn't fit--you must aquit'.

[Eila]

Amen.

I hope that people also realize that if they take the verses in Colossians to mean that just the Sabbath commandment was nailed to the cross, then so were food and drink.

I wonder how eating food and drinking water were a shadow of Christ, considering we still HAVE to do both or we'll die?!

Amen to your post too, Honor!

Food and drink were a shadow of Jesus.

John 6 "48"I am the bread of life. 49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

[Eila]

No He didn't, but some people still side with the Pharisees and say that He broke the Sabbath commandment.

In order to pay our wage, He had to be sinless. That doesn't mean that there isn't sin in the world.

If He was sinless He fulfilled the law. No person had done so before Christ.



So you don't eat food or drink water either Eila? Because if you do, according to Colossians 2, you're eating and drinking a shadow.

It isn't about not eating and drinking, but not judging.

[TrustAndObey]

Food and drink were a shadow of Jesus.

John 6 "48"I am the bread of life. 49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

So because Jesus was the fulfillment of Bread from heaven, and the water of life, does that mean we don't have to eat and drink anymore?

I know it's rudimentary, but it's basically what you're saying about the Sabbath. Neither makes sense.

[TrustAndObey]

Just because Jesus did something perfectly does not mean He gave us license to not do it at all.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

He said it was LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath when the Jews and Pharisees were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath. He obviously was not breaking any LAWS or He would've said "lawless".

[Eila]

And you'll "get my back" on Judgment Day if you're wrong?

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying here.


If not, don't tell me how to show God that I love Him and how to obey Him because I DO love Him.

I don't believe I have ever told you how to show love to God. Disagreeing with your viewpoint doesn't mean I am telling you to do something different. According to Romans 14 you are free to express your love by Sabbath-keeping.

So because Jesus was the fulfillment of Bread from heaven, and the water of life, does that mean we don't have to eat and drink anymore?

I know it's rudimentary, but it's basically what you're saying about the Sabbath. Neither makes sense.

The Sabbath isn't gone, but fulfilled. I keep the Sabbath, but not the way Sabbatarians do. Jesus fulfilled the food/drink regulations in the old covenant.

Hebrews 9 " 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

[Eila]

Just because Jesus did something perfectly does not mean He gave us license to not do it at all.

That makes no sense whatsoever.


It is not about getting away with anything. In fact, our command in the new covenant to agape love goes far beyond what was required in the 10 commandments.

[RND]

The old covenant law including the 10 commandments was fulfilled in Christ.

First, what, exactly, was 'fulfilled?"

Second, it seems like he made them harder to obey, not easier to disobey.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[RND]

The entire law was fulfilled by Christ.

Yes, you mentioned that. The "entire" law being what? For example, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all murder and stealing?

He was the only one who was sinless. He fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law. No one else ever has.

Where was the "righteousness" of the Old Covenant found? in other words, if one broke the Ten Commandments the remedy was found in the "old law" or Mosaic law. Christ has now provided a "new" remedy to sin, but has not eliminated 'law.'

Jesus is introducing new covenant concepts. "You have heard that it was said...but I say...."

Which is "spiritual" obedience to the law, certainly not doing away with the law. If 'lusting' is now 'adultery' then the spiritual aspect of the law has been revealed in Christ. The 'law' has been expanded and it's meaning deepened and spirtualized by the commandments of Christ.

If we are under the 10 commandments then our commands are quite simple - don't kill, don't steal, etc. If we are under the new covenant command to agape our command encompasses much more!

No doubt. Keep in mind however, no one can offer another agape love to another outside of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In understanding that there is no way anyone can completely be obedient to the spiritual law that Christ has commanded outside of the Holy Spirit one can clearly begin to see that obedience to Christ's commandments is a 'spirtual' in nature.

[djconklin]

If we are under the 10 commandments then our commands are quite simple - don't kill, don't steal, etc. If we are under the new covenant command to agape our command encompasses much more!

Some what correct. The 10C remain; it is what they mean that "changes" in the NC. The command to love God with all our heart, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourself is present in the OC--but the people missede it and tried to obey on their own power. In the NC the 10C is written on our heart and we obey out of love for Him who did so much to save us. The letter of the Law is the bare minimum. The Law "Thou shalt not kill" means far more than simply not killing someone for instance. That's why Paul said he didn't know the Law until he saw the command "Thou shalt not covet"--he had finally seen that there is no act that one can do to break it--it refers to our drives and motives.

[Eila]

Who said that the translators were amateurs? This is a red-herring argument.

My point was that many translations are the work of scholars.

[Eila]

"in respect of" i.e., the eating and drinking that took place ON the days that are then mentioned. The text isn't talking about the seventh-day Sabbath. The seventh-day Sabbath isn't in view here. The text is "listing," in an abbreviated way, of the ceremonial days of the year: feasts, new moons, and ceremonial sabbaths that weren't feasts (the Day of Atonement and blowing of trumpets).

Note that the interlinear has "but the body of Christ" as I noted earlier.

I guess we read that text very differently.

[honorthesabbath]

Amen Cap--I agree.

It's like when I see these people who either say, "In Christ alone" or "No Creed but Christ", I'm always left wondering--What exactly do they mean by that? In what way does their 'belief' about Christ differ from mine?

Do they have no principles that they live by , 'in Christ alone"? And what do they do with these texts?....

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I don't know Cap--but I just think that those who want to try to abolish God's commandments have an issue with not only obedience, but with authority. I think that they, like Frank Sinatra want to do it their way.

The other thing that has always fascinated me is this. The bible says that Jesus is 'the WORD made flesh'. We know that that WORD is Who wrote the 10c with His own hand--IN STONE. The word stone signifying permanence.

Jesus even said that He did NOT come to destroy God's law. But now we have people who insist that He did!

Now I just can not reconcile these texts I posted above, with the 'handwriting in stone and Jesus's own words stating that He did NOT come to destroy the law with those who make the erroneous claim that His death did just that.

As Johnny Cochran said, "It if doesn't fit--you must aquit'.

[TrustAndObey]

Were the TEN commandments nailed to the cross? Because if I was to believe the various arguments out there supporting this something weird happens. Only one of them dies. This of course happens to be the fourth one. All the rest however, whether we live under them, on top of them or beside them are still adhered too. It doesnt matter how you say you keep them as a Christian you still do and you would probably not be happy seeing people not keeping these commandments.

If the ten commandments were truely nailed to the cross why are they not all deleted? And by deleting I don't just mean the relabeling with many words and thinking we actually changed something.

So really when in essence someone says "The ten commandements were nailed to the cross" What they really mean is... I'm going to forget about the fourth commandment. Because honestly that's pretty much all it boils down no matter how long and elaborate the arguments are.

Amen.

I hope that people also realize that if they take the verses in Colossians to mean that just the Sabbath commandment was nailed to the cross, then so were food and drink.

I wonder how eating food and drinking water were a shadow of Christ, considering we still HAVE to do both or we'll die?!

Amen to your post too, Honor!

[Eila]

Mixing two things. The Law is the standard of all moral behavior: sin vs. righteousness. As such it cannot be done away with or be fulfilled. The OC was based on the people's claim that they would keep the Law. In the NC God writes His Law on our hearts and we obey out of love.

Jesus fulfilled it all. Did He sin?

The standard for moral behavior in someone with the indwelling Spirit is higher than the standards in the 10 commandments.




Lousy translation, especailly the last clause--it quite clearly says "but the body of Christ"--it is the positive counterpart to "let no man judge". And "heorte" means "feast" not "festival". J. N. Andrews pointed out that this is the only place in the KJV where they mistranslated the word.

For more details see http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html


Most Christians would interpret that text differently than you do. That is not because they are looking at a reason to "get out of" weekly Sabbath keeping, but because if you read the text for what it plainly says it does not say what you are implying.

You have the freedom to be fully convinced in your own mind. My issue is with the judging which the plain reading of Colossians 2 and Romans 14 says not to do.

[TrustAndObey]

Jesus fulfilled it all. Did He sin?

No He didn't, but some people still side with the Pharisees and say that He broke the Sabbath commandment.

In order to pay our wage, He had to be sinless. That doesn't mean that there isn't sin in the world.

Most Christians would interpret that text differently than you do. That is not because they are looking at a reason to "get out of" weekly Sabbath keeping, but because if you read the text for what it plainly says it does not say what you are implying.

You have the freedom to be fully convinced in your own mind. My issue is with the judging which the plain reading of Colossians 2 and Romans 14 says not to do.

So you don't eat food or drink water either Eila? Because if you do, according to Colossians 2, you're eating and drinking a shadow.

[TrustAndObey]

Yes, you are free to celebrate the weekly Sabbath as much as you want according to Romans 14.

And you'll "get my back" on Judgment Day if you're wrong?

If not, don't tell me how to show God that I love Him and how to obey Him because I DO love Him.

[TrustAndObey]

double post

[capnator]

Were the TEN commandments nailed to the cross? Because if I was to believe the various arguments out there supporting this something weird happens. Only one of them dies. This of course happens to be the fourth one. All the rest however, whether we live under them, on top of them or beside them are still adhered too. It doesnt matter how you say you keep them as a Christian you still do and you would probably not be happy seeing people not keeping these commandments.

If the ten commandments were truely nailed to the cross why are they not all deleted? And by deleting I don't just mean the relabeling with many words and thinking we actually changed something.

So really when in essence someone says "The ten commandements were nailed to the cross" What they really mean is... I'm going to forget about the fourth commandment. Because honestly that's pretty much all it boils down no matter how long and elaborate the arguments are.

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by Eila
It isn't about not eating and drinking, but not judging.


Actually, it is both. The believers were being judged about their eating and drinking (it was the act, not the what they were eating and drinking--you know the latter isn't the case because there are no drink laws.) on the days that are then mentioned.

[RND]

The entire law was fulfilled by Christ.

Yes, you mentioned that. The "entire" law being what? For example, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all murder and stealing?

He was the only one who was sinless. He fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law. No one else ever has.

Where was the "righteousness" of the Old Covenant found? in other words, if one broke the Ten Commandments the remedy was found in the "old law" or Mosaic law. Christ has now provided a "new" remedy to sin, but has not eliminated 'law.'

Jesus is introducing new covenant concepts. "You have heard that it was said...but I say...."

Which is "spiritual" obedience to the law, certainly not doing away with the law. If 'lusting' is now 'adultery' then the spiritual aspect of the law has been revealed in Christ. The 'law' has been expanded and it's meaning deepened and spirtualized by the commandments of Christ.

If we are under the 10 commandments then our commands are quite simple - don't kill, don't steal, etc. If we are under the new covenant command to agape our command encompasses much more!

No doubt. Keep in mind however, no one can offer another agape love to another outside of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

In understanding that there is no way anyone can completely be obedient to the spiritual law that Christ has commanded outside of the Holy Spirit one can clearly begin to see that obedience to Christ's commandments is a 'spirtual' in nature.

[PROPHECYKID]

Then that leads to a new argument. They say that all the other 9 commandments were reinstructed in the new testament. I guess when Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath he was not admonishing that people keep the Sabbath.

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45158158#post45158158)
Not relevant. Most of what you see in that study was found by reading what the professional scholars have found. Most Christians aren't scholars. You assume that the text doesn't say what the Greek actually says--I read the Greek and found out what it says, not what a flawed translation implies.

Translations are not the work of amateurs.

Who said that the translators were amateurs? This is a red-herring argument.

[djconklin]

The old covenant law including the 10 commandments was fulfilled in Christ.

Mixing two things. The Law is the standard of all moral behavior: sin vs. righteousness. As such it cannot be done away with or be fulfilled. The OC was based on the people's claim that they would keep the Law. In the NC God writes His Law on our hearts and we obey out of love.

Colossians 2 "16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Lousy translation, especailly the last clause--it quite clearly says "but the body of Christ"--it is the positive counterpart to "let no man judge". And "heorte" means "feast" not "festival". J. N. Andrews pointed out that this is the only place in the KJV where they mistranslated the word.

For more details see http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

[honorthesabbath]

Boy is this site messed up or what? I was the first one to respond to capnator's thread but when I posted it--it disappeared. Then I came back here to find my post had pasted TWICE and then Elis's post looks like the OP!!

Not only that but the PM's are REALLY messed up too. Was this site hacked yesterday?

[djconklin]

They did something weird over the week end.

I post on one thread and then on a second and the first is the newest?!?

[honorthesabbath]

Here is an explanation....
http://christianforums.com/t7060006-cf-downtime-march-22-2008.html

[Eila]

Well it still doesn't matter how you go about saying you don't keep have to keep the commandments. I bet you still do.

It's really quite simple.

We could look at each on individually but the example would be the same in each one.

The 7th commandment says, Thou shalt not commit Adultery. Do you keep this commandment yes or no? What is strange you can take 9 of the ten and ask this and you find that all christians still keep them :scratch: Nailing them to the cross didn't change a thing in respect to us being required to obey the Ten commandments.

Take your explanation of why you don't commit adultery and that is how you need to adhere to the other 9.

New covenant - new law. It's that simple.


The way I see things we are not UNDER LAW but under grace. Having been freed from sin, which is living contrary to God's word and way of doing things and his laws. We do not then have a licence to sin so out of love for what God has done we respect him and obey. We are filled with the spirit which changes our hearts, turns us into a new creation that is actually able to truely keep God's laws. The spirit writes these laws in our hearts and gives us who have no ability to truely keep God's law the power to do this. These are SUMMED UP by the 2 great commands to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbours as ourselves. John tells us over and over again to love God is to obey.

1 John 5 " 1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

What commandments? Look at the last verse in the preceding chapter:

"21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also."

The same 2 commands are reiterated here that John spoke of in chapter 3:

"21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."



The commandments are defined and they are not defined as the 10 commandments.

New covenant - new commands. It is that simple.

[TrustAndObey]

You have the freedom to be fully convinced in your own mind. My issue is with the judging which the plain reading of Colossians 2 and Romans 14 says not to do.

Really? Because it seems to me there are a whole lot of people out there that don't believe we're convinced in our own minds or that we have freedom to do anything.

They come into OUR forum to tell us that we are wrong and they are right. I don't really feel "free" to do anything when obviously it preoccupies so many people to the point that they surpass the love of each other to harass us in here about how we choose to show God we love Him back.

[Eila]

Really? Because it seems to me there are a whole lot of people out there that don't believe we're convinced in our own minds or that we have freedom to do anything.

They come into OUR forum to tell us that we are wrong and they are right. I don't really feel "free" to do anything when obviously it preoccupies so many people to the point that they surpass the love of each other to harass us in here about how we choose to show God we love Him back.

Yes, you are free to celebrate the weekly Sabbath as much as you want according to Romans 14.

[TrustAndObey]

Boy, this posting order really is messed up.

[TrustAndObey]

If He was sinless He fulfilled the law. No person had done so before Christ.

You admit that we are still under "some" laws, you just don't agree to which ones.

It isn't about not eating and drinking, but not judging.

Amen. And what are you doing here if not judging us?

[Pythons]

Amen Cap--I agree.

It's like when I see these people who either say, "In Christ alone" or "No Creed but Christ", I'm always left wondering--What exactly do they mean by that? In what way does their 'belief' about Christ differ from mine?

You would have to compare your creed with their creed for a proper understanding of how the two are either the same or different. Does your Church have a creed you could refer me to?


Do they have no principles by which they live , 'in Christ alone"?

Yeah, they have no principles by which they live, that's why people like Billy Graham, Mother Teressa and every Christian who's within Orthodoxy has a record of stealing, murder and general hatred of God. That is certainly an interesting viewpoint.



And what do they do with these texts?....

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


It does not matter if you are or are not circumcised. The "sign" you are in God and God is in you is evidenced in what you do.

"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a sign of the covenant". Gen 17

That's God talking above, looks like if we accept the New Testament a change in the law has happened.



Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Prior to the Resurrection:

"Do whatsoever the Scribes and Pharisees tell you"

After the Resurrection:

"All power in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe WHATSOEVER I have commanded you". Matthew 28


Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


By doing what Jesus commanded us we are keeping the commandments of God and Christ is our faith or testimony = witness for doing it.



I don't know Cap--but I just think that those who want to try to abolish God's commandments have an issue with not only obedience, but with authority. I think that they, like Frank Sinatra want to do it their way.


This question was reduced in the thread "Catholicism and the Sabbath" to the point that the Goliath of this forum admited there was no Biblical evidence supporting the Sabbath commandment pre-existed Moses, with the caveat that just because it's not in the Bible doesn't mean a command couldn't have been given.



The other thing that has always fascinated me is this. The bible says that Jesus is 'the WORD made flesh'. We know that that WORD is Who wrote the 10c with His own hand--IN STONE. The word stone signifying permanence. IOW--the 10c ARE the law of Christ--He wrote them.


"And He gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of communing with him upon Mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God". Exodus 31,18

"Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of it's brightness, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor". 2 Corinthians 3

"And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear O Israel, the statutes and ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb, not with our Fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day". Deut 5

"Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know I am the Lord that sanctify them". Ezekiel 20


According to the Bible, whatever the law that was written on stone, died and underwent putrification.
Abraham was holy and acceptable to God and totally ignorant of the Sabbath.



Jesus even said that He did NOT come to destroy God's law. But now we have people who insist that He did!


When Jesus said He had completed all the work the Father had sent him to do and said "it is finished" with his last breaths, it either means all was finished and the law was killed or it meant, poor little Jesus, all finished. What do you think it means?



Now I just can not reconcile these texts I posted above, with the 'handwriting in stone and Jesus's own words stating that He did NOT come to destroy the law with those who make the erroneous claim that His death did just that.


"Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Matthew 5

You are saying Jesus didn't fulfil the law or the prophets with your theology, so I guess He just meant He was all washed up when it said "it is finished".



As Johnny Cochran said, "It if doesn't fit--you must aquit'.


Johnny Cochran presented his case a little different I would suggest.

[Eila]

You admit that we are still under "some" laws, you just don't agree to which ones.

I don't believe we are under any of the old covenant laws.



Amen. And what are you doing here if not judging us?

Does expressing one's viewpoint equal judging? What does judge mean to you?

[Jimlarmore]

Salvation is by grace thru faith and it's always been that way. The law could never save and it was never it's job. The laws job was to point us to the need of a savior. Christ never fulfilled the ten commandments as there is nothing in the ten that His death was shadowed by.

The danger of this idea of not being under the law ( which we never were ) is that it throws the ten out the window. When someone says that the new commandment is to love one another they are copping out of the truth in the Bible. Christ Himself said that love was the base of the law and the prophets or the ten commandments. You can't save yourself by keeping the law but you can send yourself to eternal death by breaking it and not confessing or repenting.

The only commandment that brings on this debate is the 4th, all the others are never contested at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[djconklin]

Thanx for the many good points Jim!

[RND]

A person who agapes wouldn't steal. It doesn't have anything to do with the 10 commandments.

A person can't 'agape' as if it can be turned on and off. The state of being in agape love, as summed up in 1 Corithians 13, can only come but the way of the Holy Spirit.

We can only obey by way of the Holy Spirit. This is a common theme in the NT.


Jesus didn't become righteous by law-keeping. He is God and is righteous. He kept all the righteous requirements of the law unlike any man who has ever lived on earth.

Right. I said that.

"But the 'law' could never make one righteous."

Now. what 'law' could never make one righteous?


Only if you put yourself under the law to start with.

Placing yourself under the 'law' of breaking the sabbath would mean one would have to break it.

In other words, one would be 'under the law' of murder unless one murdered, one wouldn't be under the law of stealing unless they stole.

And when you are in Christ you are righteous. You have been given the gift of His righteousness. There is no need for the law when you are in Christ.

There have been plenty of people 'in Christ' that have been lawless and have committed crimes. What standard is used to those these individuals they sin?


Hebrews 9 says that the covenant was not inaugurated without a death.

The last supper with the bread and the wine were representing what was going to happen and not the actual giving of the covenant. The new covenant was given on the anniversary of the giving of the old covenant.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That night, Jesus began shedding His blood, beginning the 'New Covenant.'

The old covenant law was not changed, but fulfilled. We are not under a changed old covenant law, but the new covenant.

What part was fulfilled?

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.


The law Paul refers to is the old covenant law. Agape love fulfills the commands in the law.

Which is impossible without the Holy Spirit. But keep this in mind; the NT wasn't compiled yet. And everything that Paul was referring to wasn't based on a future understanding of the epistles that he and the other apostles wrote but was based on the current scripture of his day....the OT.

Everything that Paul was referring to is found in the OT.


So what does this have to do with the spirit of the law? If you have God Himself living in you guiding you what reason do you have to hold on to the written commands?

What commands does God write in the heart? His laws. Does God write these physically or spirtually? Spirtually.


And where does the Bible talk about the spirit of the old covenant law?

They Holy Spirit wasn't imparted on the heart at that time. Hence the rituals.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


It is not about what people claim, but what is. If you put yourself under the law and break it you are under a curse. We don't receive or keep the Holy Spirit by keeping the law.

What 'law' said that? The TC or the Mosaic law? You can read this just a few verses down.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We have begun in the Spirit. It is a journey and on that journey people will mess up and not show the love God asks them to.

What's the standard? If people aren't 'under the law' as you maintain, how is it possible that they can 'mess up?'

And how does this translate to the spirit of the law?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Understanding and obeying the words of Spirit that Jesus speaks of can only be obeyed by the Holy Spirit.

And we are not carnal/in the flesh when we are born again. The law was given to point out sin until Christ. It is not so we can obey a law given to those who didn't have the Holy Spirit. We are led by the Spirit.

Then what standard is used to determine when we 'mess up?'

Romans 8 "9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.....
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Can't obey the law without the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:7

The context of that quote from 2 Corinthians 3 does not suggest "able to obey" the letter. If you look at the next verses it talks about the old covenant being the ministry of death. It brings death. It said it had glory, but it has come to have no glory at all.

"7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

Right. "Letter." However, where does God now right "His law?"


Where there is no Spirit there is no Christian. We receive the Spirit by grace through faith alone and He doesn't go away when we sin.

Right. The Holy Spirit convicts when we sin. What standard does the Holy Spirit use?


Just curious, what texts do you base this belief on?

Your kidding right? Honestly, read the Gospels, you'll get you answers there.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


The verses I quoted don't talk about the spirit of the law, but the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the essence of the old covenant law or the 10 commandments, but God. We have God living in us guiding us. We are transformed by the Spirit. He changes us. We are transformed by the Spirit to be more Christ-like, not be be keepers of what 2 Corinthians 3 describes as the ministry of death.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. Not if we are led by the Spirit we will keep the law. Big difference. The fruit of the Spirit is not law-keeping, but love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and self control.

And none of this can be done without the Holy Spirit. Can't listen, obey or do without the Holy Spirit.

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by Eila
It isn't about not eating and drinking, but not judging.
Actually, it is both. The believers were being judged about their eating and drinking (it was the act, not the what they were eating and drinking--you know the latter isn't the case because there are no drink laws.) on the days that are then mentioned.

For more insight into Hebrew, Greek and English language in expressing things see http://www.shamar.org/articles/hebrew-thought.php.

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45144687#post45144687)
Lousy translation, especailly the last clause--it quite clearly says "but the body of Christ"--it is the positive counterpart to "let no man judge". And "heorte" means "feast" not "festival". J. N. Andrews pointed out that this is the only place in the KJV where they mistranslated the word.

For more details see http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_.../colintro.html (http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html)

Most Christians would interpret that text differently than you do.
Not relevant. Most of what you see in that study was found by reading what the professional scholars have found. Most Christians aren't scholars. You assume that the text doesn't say what the Greek actually says--I read the Greek and found out what it says, not what a flawed translation implies.

[Eila]

Not relevant. Most of what you see in that study was found by reading what the professional scholars have found. Most Christians aren't scholars. You assume that the text doesn't say what the Greek actually says--I read the Greek and found out what it says, not what a flawed translation implies.

Translations are not the work of amateurs. The Greek is important. I certainly don't see how the Greek changes the meaning. Not judging someone in regard to Sabbaths is there either way.

" (Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Colossians 2:16-17 | mh <3361> {NOT} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} tiV <5100> {ANYONE} umaV <5209> {YOU} krinetw <2919> (5720) {LET JUDGE} en <1722> {IN} brwsei <1035> {MEAT} h <2228> {OR} en <1722> {IN} posei <4213> {DRINK,} h <2228> {OR} en <1722> {IN} merei <3313> {RESPECT} eorthV <1859> {OF FEAST,} h <2228> {OR} noumhniaV <3561> {NEW MOON,} h <2228> {OR} sabbatwn <4521> {SABBATHS,} a <3739> {WHICH} estin <2076> (5748) {ARE} skia <4639> {A SHADOW} twn <3588> {OF THINGS} mellontwn <3195> (5723) {TO COME;} to <3588> {BUT} de <1161> {THE} swma <4983> {BODY [IS]} tou <3588> {OF THE} cristou <5547> {CHRIST.}"

[Eila]

First, what, exactly, was 'fulfilled?"

Second, it seems like he made them harder to obey, not easier to disobey.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The entire law was fulfilled by Christ. He was the only one who was sinless. He fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law. No one else ever has.

Jesus is introducing new covenant concepts. "You have heard that it was said...but I say...." If we are under the 10 commandments then our commands are quite simple - don't kill, don't steal, etc. If we are under the new covenant command to agape our command encompasses much more!

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=45158158#post45158158)
Not relevant. Most of what you see in that study was found by reading what the professional scholars have found. Most Christians aren't scholars. You assume that the text doesn't say what the Greek actually says--I read the Greek and found out what it says, not what a flawed translation implies.

Translations are not the work of amateurs.

Who said that the translators were amateurs? This is a red-herring argument.

Not judging someone in regard to Sabbaths is there either way.

"in respect of" i.e., the eating and drinking that took place ON the days that are then mentioned. The text isn't talking about the seventh-day Sabbath. The seventh-day Sabbath isn't in view here. The text is "listing," in an abbreviated way, of the ceremonial days of the year: feasts, new moons, and ceremonial sabbaths that weren't feasts (the Day of Atonement and blowing of trumpets).

Note that the interlinear has "but the body of Christ" as I noted earlier.

[capnator]

I don't believe we are under any of the old covenant laws.



Well it still doesn't matter how you go about saying you don't keep have to keep the commandments. I bet you still do.

It's really quite simple.

We could look at each on individually but the example would be the same in each one.

The 7th commandment says, Thou shalt not commit Adultery. Do you keep this commandment yes or no? What is strange you can take 9 of the ten and ask this and you find that all christians still keep them :scratch: Nailing them to the cross didn't change a thing in respect to us being required to obey the Ten commandments.

Take your explanation of why you don't commit adultery and that is how you need to adhere to the other 9.

The way I see things we are not UNDER LAW but under grace. Having been freed from sin, which is living contrary to God's word and way of doing things and his laws. We do not then have a licence to sin so out of love for what God has done we respect him and obey. We are filled with the spirit which changes our hearts, turns us into a new creation that is actually able to truely keep God's laws. The spirit writes these laws in our hearts and gives us who have no ability to truely keep God's law the power to do this. These are SUMMED UP by the 2 great commands to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbours as ourselves. John tells us over and over again to love God is to obey.

[djconklin]

And if you try to post while someone else is your post can be lost! Argh!

[Eila]

Yes, you mentioned that. The "entire" law being what? For example, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all murder and stealing?

Yes, Jesus Christ never murdered or stole so He fulfilled those commands.


Where was the "righteousness" of the Old Covenant found? in other words, if one broke the Ten Commandments the remedy was found in the "old law" or Mosaic law. Christ has now provided a "new" remedy to sin, but has not eliminated 'law.'

Not eliminated - fulfilled.

The punishment was found in what you would call the Mosaic law as well. Do you believe there is no more punishment for breaking the 10 commandments?




Which is "spiritual" obedience to the law, certainly not doing away with the law. If 'lusting' is now 'adultery' then the spiritual aspect of the law has been revealed in Christ. The 'law' has been expanded and it's meaning deepened and spirtualized by the commandments of Christ.

Where does the Bible talk about a spiritualized law for the new covenant Christian?




No doubt. Keep in mind however, no one can offer another agape love to another outside of the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. This is why are commands are greater.




In understanding that there is no way anyone can completely be obedient to the spiritual law that Christ has commanded outside of the Holy Spirit one can clearly begin to see that obedience to Christ's commandments is a 'spirtual' in nature.

Please give Biblical reference for the written law turning spiritual for the new covenant Christian.

[RND]

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Exd 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,


When God speaks He does not alter that which has gone out of His lips.

[TrustAndObey]

Is it just me, or is this thread IMPOSSIBLE to keep up with? Things I posted deep into the thread are on page one.

Is the glitch fixed yet, does anyone know?

[RND]

Yes, Jesus Christ never murdered or stole so He fulfilled those commands.

So just like the sacrificing of lambs and bulls those things should have completely ended.

Not eliminated - fulfilled.

What? What was fufilled?

The punishment was found in what you would call the Mosaic law as well. Do you believe there is no more punishment for breaking the 10 commandments?

Fortunately, I'm not the only one who calls the Mosaic law the Mosaic law.

now, regarding your question about the 10 Commendments the obvious answer is no. However, I have to ask, do you believe there is punishment for breaking them?

Also, you mentioned the Ten Commandments. Are they still intact?


Where does the Bible talk about a spiritualized law for the new covenant Christian?

Oh, stop! You have to be kidding. Tell me, where in the "Old Covenant" is there a 'law' that says lust is the same as adultery. I'll give you a lifetime to find it since it isn't in there. Christ on the other hand made a clear distinction as to what the "spirit" of the law is. Hate now equals murder, lust not equals adultery. You won't find this in the Old, this is your "New" covenant.

Exactly. This is why are commands are greater.

"Our" commands are indeed greater. That doesn't eliminate the law however. It intensifies it, makes it much more clear as to what the Father's true will for us is.

Please give Biblical reference for the written law turning spiritual for the new covenant Christian.

Again, you're kidding right? Read any one of Paul's epistles.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Eila]

Bad logic. You can be "under the Law" and not be quilty if you don't break it. Also one should note that being "under the law" in the biblical sense frequently means being under the condemnation of the law--i.e., as a sinner. Now, if the law doesn't exist then we aren't sinners and we don't need a Saviour.


Romans 5 "12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Eila]

So just like the sacrificing of lambs and bulls those things should have completely ended.

The law did end. Our command is not "thou shalt not steal", but love one another.

What? What was fufilled?

The righteous requirements of the law.


now, regarding your question about the 10 Commendments the obvious answer is no. However, I have to ask, do you believe there is punishment for breaking them?

If you put yourself under them.


Also, you mentioned the Ten Commandments. Are they still intact?

They are still there if you want to put yourself under them.



Oh, stop! You have to be kidding. Tell me, where in the "Old Covenant" is there a 'law' that says lust is the same as adultery. I'll give you a lifetime to find it since it isn't in there. Christ on the other hand made a clear distinction as to what the "spirit" of the law is. Hate now equals murder, lust not equals adultery. You won't find this in the Old, this is your "New" covenant.

Jesus was introducing new covenant ideas while still under the old covenant. Where did He mention that He was talking about the spirit of the law?

Look at how he says it in Matthew 5 " 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."



"You have heard.....but I say."


The new testament starts with Matthew, but the new covenant was not fully given until Pentecost.


"Our" commands are indeed greater. That doesn't eliminate the law however. It intensifies it, makes it much more clear as to what the Father's true will for us is.

Then why not just go with the greater command? What reason is there to go back to the command that doesn't show clearly what the Father's will is for us?



Again, you're kidding right? Read any one of Paul's epistles.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7 "4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."



The context says we died to the law and now we have been released from the law. So we should still hold on to the letter and spiritualize it? Spirit here in Greek is the same word used as Holy Spirit. I don't see "spirit of the law" here at all. The Holy Spirit is given to Christians under the new covenant.




Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Again the Spirit here is the Holy Spirit. See the Greek definition:

of the Spirit
New Testament Greek Definition:
4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}
from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n
AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal,
coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his
personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work
and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels,
thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least
all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing,
desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived
as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest
angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul
of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

There is nothing here to suggest that Spirit here is the "spirit of the law", but the Holy Spirit who is given to new covenant Christians.

The context even mentions the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8 "2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."




Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

How is this talking about the spiritulized law? f we are led of the Spirit (pneuma) we are not under the law.

2 Corinthians 3 is also a great example to show that the spirit talked about is God and not a spiritualized law.

"5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life....
17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."

[RND]

The law did end. Our command is not "thou shalt not steal", but love one another.

So one is free to steal?


The righteous requirements of the law.

But the 'law' could never make one righteous.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

If you put yourself under them.

So then by extension then if one "breaks" the sabbath they have "placed" themselves under the law.

They are still there if you want to put yourself under them.

I agree. A 'lawbreaker' is one that breaks the law. The law wasn't written for the just but the unjust.

1 Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


Jesus was introducing new covenant ideas while still under the old covenant. Where did He mention that He was talking about the spirit of the law?

Look at how he says it in Matthew 5 " 21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' [/SIZE][/FONT] 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."



"You have heard.....but I say."

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]
The new testament starts with Matthew, but the new covenant was not fully given until Pentecost.

Actually, the "New Covenant" was given during the last supper.

But if you look at all you wrote above you managed to anser your own question.

Tell me, if Christ came not to change one jot or tittle of the law has the law been changed?

Then why not just go with the greater command? What reason is there to go back to the command that doesn't show clearly what the Father's will is for us?

You mean the 'greater commands' that wer first uttered in the Old Testament?

Now, in answer to your second question, when paul said "Love is the fulfillment of the law" what were the scriptures that people of his day were familiar with? Was the "New" Testament compiled at that time?

The context says we died to the law and now we have been released from the law. So we should still hold on to the letter and spiritualize it? Spirit here in Greek is the same word used as Holy Spirit. I don't see "spirit of the law" here at all. The Holy Spirit is given to Christians under the new covenant.

The 'law' can't be obeyed "outside" of the Holy Spirit. In other words, without the Spirit of God there is no way to obey the law.

Again the Spirit here is the Holy Spirit. See the Greek definition:

Right. Holy Spirit make it possible to obey that which is "spitual."

There is nothing here to suggest that Spirit here is the "spirit of the law", but the Holy Spirit who is given to new covenant Christians.

Um, apparently not. Anyone can call themselves a Christian and claim to have the Holy Spirit, but if they are lawbreakers there is no truth in them and they are liars.

The context even mentions the Holy Spirit:


How is this talking about the spiritulized law? f we are led of the Spirit (pneuma) we are not under the law.

It's talking about being able to obey the word of God by the Spirit.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

2 Corinthians 3 is also a great example to show that the spirit talked about is God and not a spiritualized law.

You seem slightly confussed. God the Holy Spirit makes it possible to obey that which is "spiritual." Going back to Romans 8:7 Paul clearly makes this point clear.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind (the person without the "Holy Spirit") [is] enmity against God: for it (the carnal mind)) is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Paul is clearly saying that those without the Holy Spirit are incapable of obeying (not subject to) the law of God.

"5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life....

Yep. So those outside of the Holy Spirit are incapable of obeying (not subject to) the law of God.

God make us "adequate as servants of a new covenant" (able to obey) not by the "letter" but by the Holy Spirit.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Conversely, where the Spirit is not, there is no "liberty," i.e. still captives of lawlessness.

18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."

Jesus did not obey the law based on His own righteousness, but by the rihteousness of the Father through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was able to obey the law perfectly by way of the Holy Spirit.

Ella, if you look at all the verses you provided here they each and everyone answers your question. Only that which is of the Holy Spirit is able to obey and understand that which is of Spirit.

There is no other way.

[Eila]

So one is free to steal?

A person who agapes wouldn't steal. It doesn't have anything to do with the 10 commandments.



But the 'law' could never make one righteous.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Jesus didn't become righteous by law-keeping. He is God and is righteous. He kept all the righteous requirements of the law unlike any man who has ever lived on earth.



So then by extension then if one "breaks" the sabbath they have "placed" themselves under the law.

Only if you put yourself under the law to start with.


I agree. A 'lawbreaker' is one that breaks the law. The law wasn't written for the just but the unjust.

1 Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


And when you are in Christ you are righteous. You have been given the gift of His righteousness. There is no need for the law when you are in Christ.



Actually, the "New Covenant" was given during the last supper.

Hebrews 9 says that the covenant was not inaugurated without a death.

15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood."

The last supper with the bread and the wine were representing what was going to happen and not the actual giving of the covenant. The new covenant was given on the anniversary of the giving of the old covenant.

Sinai
50 days after deliverance from Egypt
Law was given
3000 people died

Pentecost
50 days after deliverance from sin
Holy Spirit was given
3000 people were born again




Tell me, if Christ came not to change one jot or tittle of the law has the law been changed?

The old covenant law was not changed, but fulfilled. We are not under a changed old covenant law, but the new covenant.



Now, in answer to your second question, when paul said "Love is the fulfillment of the law" what were the scriptures that people of his day were familiar with? Was the "New" Testament compiled at that time?

The law Paul refers to is the old covenant law. Agape love fulfills the commands in the law.



The 'law' can't be obeyed "outside" of the Holy Spirit. In other words, without the Spirit of God there is no way to obey the law.

So what does this have to do with the spirit of the law? If you have God Himself living in you guiding you what reason do you have to hold on to the written commands?



Right. Holy Spirit make it possible to obey that which is "spitual."

And where does the Bible talk about the spirit of the old covenant law?



Um, apparently not. Anyone can call themselves a Christian and claim to have the Holy Spirit, but if they are lawbreakers there is no truth in them and they are liars.

It is not about what people claim, but what is. If you put yourself under the law and break it you are under a curse. We don't receive or keep the Holy Spirit by keeping the law.

Galatians 3 "2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

We have begun in the Spirit. It is a journey and on that journey people will mess up and not show the love God asks them to.





It's talking about being able to obey the word of God by the Spirit.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


And how does this translate to the spirit of the law?


You seem slightly confussed. God the Holy Spirit makes it possible to obey that which is "spiritual." Going back to Romans 8:7 Paul clearly makes this point clear.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind (the person without the "Holy Spirit") [is] enmity against God: for it (the carnal mind)) is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Paul is clearly saying that those without the Holy Spirit are incapable of obeying (not subject to) the law of God.

And we are not carnal/in the flesh when we are born again. The law was given to point out sin until Christ. It is not so we can obey a law given to those who didn't have the Holy Spirit. We are led by the Spirit.

Romans 8 "9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.....
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"



Yep. So those outside of the Holy Spirit are incapable of obeying (not subject to) the law of God.

God make us "adequate as servants of a new covenant" (able to obey) not by the "letter" but by the Holy Spirit.

The context of that quote from 2 Corinthians 3 does not suggest "able to obey" the letter. If you look at the next verses it talks about the old covenant being the ministry of death. It brings death. It said it had glory, but it has come to have no glory at all.

"7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."



Conversely, where the Spirit is not, there is no "liberty," i.e. still captives of lawlessness.


Where there is no Spirit there is no Christian. We receive the Spirit by grace through faith alone and He doesn't go away when we sin.



Jesus did not obey the law based on His own righteousness, but by the rihteousness of the Father through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was able to obey the law perfectly by way of the Holy Spirit.

Just curious, what texts do you base this belief on?



Ella, if you look at all the verses you provided here they each and everyone answers your question. Only that which is of the Holy Spirit is able to obey and understand that which is of Spirit.

There is no other way.

The verses I quoted don't talk about the spirit of the law, but the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the essence of the old covenant law or the 10 commandments, but God. We have God living in us guiding us. We are transformed by the Spirit. He changes us. We are transformed by the Spirit to be more Christ-like, not be be keepers of what 2 Corinthians 3 describes as the ministry of death.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. Not if we are led by the Spirit we will keep the law. Big difference. The fruit of the Spirit is not law-keeping, but love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, and self control.

[Jimlarmore]

Salvation is by grace thru faith and it's always been that way. The law could never save and it was never it's job. The laws job was to point us to the need of a savior. Christ never fulfilled the ten commandments as there is nothing in the ten that His death was shadowed by.

The danger of this idea of not being under the law ( which we never were ) is that it throws the ten out the window. When someone says that the new commandment is to love one another they are copping out of the truth in the Bible. Christ Himself said that love was the base of the law and the prophets or the ten commandments. You can't save yourself by keeping the law but you can send yourself to eternal death by breaking it and not confessing or repenting.

The only commandment that brings on this debate is the 4th, all the others are never contested at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[djconklin]

Thanx for the many good points Jim!

[djconklin]

The law did end. Our command is not "thou shalt not steal", but love one another.

The 10C did not end; they remain to point out sin and your need of a Saviour. And as Paul said where there is no law there is not sin. So, if the law ended then we aren't sinners and don't need to be saved because there is nothing condemning us.

For a start to an in-depth look at Rom. 10:4 see http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/telos.html

Lots of people will say that the love others--but they'll still steal from them, lie about them, hate them, etc.. That's called situational eithics. This is simply the "christianized" version of it.

[Eila]

A person can't 'agape' as if it can be turned on and off. The state of being in agape love, as summed up in 1 Corithians 13, can only come but the way of the Holy Spirit.

Agape resides in us as Christians, but we can choose not to demonstrate that agape. Thus the instructions to love.


We can only obey by way of the Holy Spirit. This is a common theme in the NT.

People were able to obey before the Holy Spirit came, but their instructions were not to agape.



"But the 'law' could never make one righteous."

Now. what 'law' could never make one righteous?

The old covenant law




Placing yourself under the 'law' of breaking the sabbath would mean one would have to break it.

In other words, one would be 'under the law' of murder unless one murdered, one wouldn't be under the law of stealing unless they stole.


No, one would be under the law if they were a Jew pre-new covenant or if they were a Christian thinking they need to keep the law.




There have been plenty of people 'in Christ' that have been lawless and have committed crimes. What standard is used to those these individuals they sin?

We are not without commands in the new covenant. You don't need the old covenant commands to have any standards.




Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That night, Jesus began shedding His blood, beginning the 'New Covenant.'

Inaugurated at death. Fully given at Pentecost.




What part was fulfilled?

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.


The entire law was fulfilled. If Jesus did not fulfill it all then He was not without sin. He fulfilled types and shadows as well.




Which is impossible without the Holy Spirit. But keep this in mind; the NT wasn't compiled yet. And everything that Paul was referring to wasn't based on a future understanding of the epistles that he and the other apostles wrote but was based on the current scripture of his day....the OT.

Paul was not telling them to keep the old covenant law. Paul does not come close to saying that.




Everything that Paul was referring to is found in the OT.

And he instructed people to love, not keep the old covenant law.





What commands does God write in the heart? His laws. Does God write these physically or spirtually? Spirtually.

He put the Holy Spirit in us. This is what is on/in our heart. The written commands that the Bible refers to as the ministry of death are not written on our heart. They were glorious, but have come to have no glory at all because of the glory that excels in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.





They Holy Spirit wasn't imparted on the heart at that time. Hence the rituals.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

In the flesh is pre-born again. If you are under the old covenant law you are under all 613 laws.



What 'law' said that? The TC or the Mosaic law? You can read this just a few verses down.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

There are no parts. It is just one law - the old covenant law. You can't Biblically separate the law into parts where some are kept and some are not according to Matthew 5. Not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Then Jesus goes on to quote from the law - notice it is not just the 10 commandments. He does not distinguish between the 2.



What's the standard? If people aren't 'under the law' as you maintain, how is it possible that they can 'mess up?'

They can go against agape or the leading of the Holy Spirit. Is the law the reason you don't steal or kill?



Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Understanding and obeying the words of Spirit that Jesus speaks of can only be obeyed by the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit gives life. The Spirit teaches. Where do you find Biblical support for this idea that the Holy Spirit's purpose is to help us obey the old covenant law?





Then what standard is used to determine when we 'mess up?'


Agape and the indwelling Holy Spirit.



Can't obey the law without the Holy Spirit. Rom 8:7


If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.



Right. "Letter." However, where does God now right "His law?"


The law of the Spirit of live in Christ Jesus is the Spirit in us. The Holy Spirit is in us guiding us. We do not have the letter written on our heart.



Right. The Holy Spirit convicts when we sin. What standard does the Holy Spirit use?

He convicts the world of sin because they have not believed.
John 16 "8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."

He convicts us of righteousness.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. We have no more intercourse with the old covenant law.




Your kidding right? Honestly, read the Gospels, you'll get you answers there.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit was necessary for Jesus not to sin what happened before the baptism? What does the Gospels say about why Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit? You won't find "to be sinless" there.





And none of this can be done without the Holy Spirit. Can't listen, obey or do without the Holy Spirit.

People were able to listen and obey old covenant commands in the old covenant. Were they able to keep 613 laws perfectly? No, only Jesus fulfilled the law. Honestly, keeping the 10 commandments as written is not that difficult. We are called to a higher standard. God Himself lives in us guiding us.

[RND]

Agape resides in us as Christians, but we can choose not to demonstrate that agape. Thus the instructions to love.

Sorry Ella, but agape love is not something that is a natural part of a human being. Agape is only available by and through the Holy Spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK0.htm#S26), joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

People were able to obey before the Holy Spirit came, but their instructions were not to agape.

SorryElla, but the Holy Spirit didn't come until Christ was glorified. Therefore, agape was impossible, as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, before the glorification of Christ.


The old covenant law

Right, the "Mosaic" law could never make anyone righteous.



No, one would be under the law if they were a Jew pre-new covenant or if they were a Christian thinking they need to keep the law.

Hmmm, so using that 'logic' a non-Jew before the covenant could violate the Ten Commandments and get away with it.

Is that what you really want to say?

If, what you say is true, why does the Bible specifically say that "non-Israelites" were not free to trangress God's covenant?

We are not without commands in the new covenant. You don't need the old covenant commands to have any standards.

Sure, so what are those standards? What are the laws that God rights in the heart?



Inaugurated at death. Fully given at Pentecost.

Really?

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The entire law was fulfilled. If Jesus did not fulfill it all then He was not without sin. He fulfilled types and shadows as well.

Jesus fulfilled what the law pointed to. He did not abolish law.

Paul was not telling them to keep the old covenant law. Paul does not come close to saying that.

Paul specifically said that one can't keep the law outside of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

And he instructed people to love, not keep the old covenant law.

Love of course being one of the aspects of the fruit of the Spirit.

He put the Holy Spirit in us. This is what is on/in our heart. The written commands that the Bible refers to as the ministry of death are not written on our heart. They were glorious, but have come to have no glory at all because of the glory that excels in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

I see. So when God says "I will write my laws" on their hearts He really means giving the Holy Spirit?

I think you are confussing things unnecessarily because you believe all the commandments, except for the fourth, are still in effect to point out sin.

The law points out the sins of the those both in and outside of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between being dead in sin or dead to sin.

While a Christian should be dead to sin when they indeed sin there is still a barometer to expose that sin by way of the Holy Spirit.

In the flesh is pre-born again. If you are under the old covenant law you are under all 613 laws.

Nope. Some of those laws that pointed to the coming Messiah were nailed to the cross.

But certainly Jesus didn't come to abolish the Ten Commandments. Those are still used to expose sin to the sinful.


There are no parts. It is just one law - the old covenant law. You can't Biblically separate the law into parts where some are kept and some are not according to Matthew 5. Not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Then Jesus goes on to quote from the law - notice it is not just the 10 commandments. He does not distinguish between the 2.

The "Old Covenant" law wasn't abolished, it was the redemiation of sin that was abolished.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They can go against agape or the leading of the Holy Spirit. Is the law the reason you don't steal or kill?

Yes, it's written on the heart. People instinctively know that stealing, lying and murder are wrong because those laws are now written on the heart.

That's how even a non-Christian can know these things are wrong. What the Holy Spirit does is give us the ability to obey the "spiritual" commandments of the law.

The Spirit gives life. The Spirit teaches. Where do you find Biblical support for this idea that the Holy Spirit's purpose is to help us obey the old covenant law?

Spiritual law. The Holy Spirit helps us to obey the "spitual" aspects of the law.

Agape and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

And those that don't have those things how do they obey the law?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.

Until it's broken.

The law of the Spirit of live in Christ Jesus is the Spirit in us. The Holy Spirit is in us guiding us. We do not have the letter written on our heart.

See Romans 2 again.


He convicts the world of sin because they have not believed.
John 16 "8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."

He convicts us of righteousness.

Unrighteousness.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. We have no more intercourse with the old covenant law.

For salvation. Righteousness comes by Christ, not by obeying the Mosaic law, this is well understood.

Yet the TC still show us how unrighteous were are.

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit was necessary for Jesus not to sin what happened before the baptism? What does the Gospels say about why Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit? You won't find "to be sinless" there.

The Bible says little about the interaction of Jesus and the Father prior to the beginning of His ministry. I would say that if Jesus relied on His Father before His ministry to be sinless, just as He did afterwards.

Jesus never credited His own divinity in keeping His Fathers will.




People were able to listen and obey old covenant commands in the old covenant. Were they able to keep 613 laws perfectly? No, only Jesus fulfilled the law. Honestly, keeping the 10 commandments as written is not that difficult. We are called to a higher standard. God Himself lives in us guiding us.

Can't be done today Ella without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to obey God and the commandments of Jesus outside the presence of the Holy Spirit.

[Eila]

Sorry Ella, but agape love is not something that is a natural part of a human being. Agape is only available by and through the Holy Spirit.

Agape resides in a born again Christian, not in human nature. The Holy Spirit resides in a born again Christian.



SorryElla, but the Holy Spirit didn't come until Christ was glorified. Therefore, agape was impossible, as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, before the glorification of Christ.

I think you misunderstood. I agree with you here.



Right, the "Mosaic" law could never make anyone righteous.

No law could make anyone righteous.




Hmmm, so using that 'logic' a non-Jew before the covenant could violate the Ten Commandments and get away with it.

Is that what you really want to say?

If, what you say is true, why does the Bible specifically say that "non-Israelites" were not free to trangress God's covenant?

Please refer me to the texts that say the non-Israelites living outside of Israel were under the covenant.

Paul said in Acts that God overlooked the ignorance of the Gentiles.



Sure, so what are those standards? What are the laws that God rights in the heart?

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. A good list of instructions would be found in 1 Corinthians 13.


Really?

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


RND, I'm not sure what you are doing here...first you said the new covenant came at the Lord's supper and now you are trying to demonstrate that it came before Pentecost. So when do you believe the new covenant came?

I'll say it again. Inaugurated at death of Jesus. Fully given at Pentecost. Like with the law given to Israel. It was not fully given until Sinai, yet they were given some commands prior to Sinai. It was 50 days from the death of Jesus to Pentecost. It was 50 days from the release of the captives to Sinai. The start of the 50 days was the inauguration and the end of the 50 days is when the law/Holy Spirit was fully given. So, yes the disciples were given a measure of the Holy Spirit before Jesus' ascension, but the new covenant was not fully given until Pentecost.




I see. So when God says "I will write my laws" on their hearts He really means giving the Holy Spirit?

The law was a tudor until Christ. Now our guide is not a written law, but the Holy Spirit - the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus - the ministry of the Spirit.


I think you are confussing things unnecessarily because you believe all the commandments, except for the fourth, are still in effect to point out sin.


That does not represent my position at all. We have NO more intercourse with the old covenant law. It does not convict an unbeliever of sin. It has nothing to do with us. The Holy Spirit convicts an unbeliever of sin. What sin? The sin of not believing in Jesus.

None of the old covenant law is in effect to point out sin unless you put yourself under that law.


The law points out the sins of the those both in and outside of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between being dead in sin or dead to sin.


Dead in sin is pre-born again. Dead to sin is all born again Christians.


While a Christian should be dead to sin when they indeed sin there is still a barometer to expose that sin by way of the Holy Spirit.


A born again Christian is dead to sin. Whether or not that is acknowledged is another issue. We are dead to sin because of what Jesus did for us.

The Holy Spirit convicts of righteousness.


Nope. Some of those laws that pointed to the coming Messiah were nailed to the cross.

But certainly Jesus didn't come to abolish the Ten Commandments. Those are still used to expose sin to the sinful.

Not one jot or title would pass from the law until all was fulfilled. If some have passed then all has been fulfilled.




The "Old Covenant" law wasn't abolished, it was the redemiation of sin that was abolished.

Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If anything in the law is no longer required then it has all been fulfilled.



Yes, it's written on the heart. People instinctively know that stealing, lying and murder are wrong because those laws are now written on the heart.

That's how even a non-Christian can know these things are wrong. What the Holy Spirit does is give us the ability to obey the "spiritual" commandments of the law.


Spiritual law. The Holy Spirit helps us to obey the "spitual" aspects of the law.



You have not demonstrated what the "spiritual commandments" or what the "spirit of the law" is. It appears as though you think it is the Spirit helping you keep the letter.



And those that don't have those things how do they obey the law?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Romans 2 is talking about those pre-Christ to demonstrate that all are guilty before God. In Romans 3 it changes to talk about post-Christ
"21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"




Until it's broken.


If you aren't under the law and you break it then you aren't guilty of breaking it. You are only guilty if you are under the law to start with.



Unrighteousness.

Where does that text say that the Holy Spirit convicts us of unrighteousness?




The Bible says little about the interaction of Jesus and the Father prior to the beginning of His ministry. I would say that if Jesus relied on His Father before His ministry to be sinless, just as He did afterwards.

Jesus never credited His own divinity in keeping His Fathers will.

There is no text that points out that He relied on the Father to be sinless. In the context of John 5 is the Father's will he is talking about sinlessness?

[djconklin]

If you aren't under the law and you break it then you aren't guilty of breaking it. You are only guilty if you are under the law to start with.
Bad logic. You can be "under the Law" and not be quilty if you don't break it. Also one should note that being "under the law" in the biblical sense frequently means being under the condemnation of the law--i.e., as a sinner. Now, if the law doesn't exist then we aren't sinners and we don't need a Saviour.

[RND]

Now, if the law doesn't exist then we aren't sinners and we don't need a Saviour.

That's called "great logic." Good point DJ.

[Eila]

Bad logic. You can be "under the Law" and not be quilty if you don't break it. Also one should note that being "under the law" in the biblical sense frequently means being under the condemnation of the law--i.e., as a sinner. Now, if the law doesn't exist then we aren't sinners and we don't need a Saviour.


Romans 5 "12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[RND]

[/SIZE]

Oxymoron Dj. “Being under the law”
requires that you do indeed break it and it is because of this transparent fact that the Eternal S