UM Clergy Requirements

[Speculative]

What are the requirements of belief for United Methodist clergy?

Are they required to hold to certain doctrines? Must they make a statement of faith/beliefs? If so, what beliefs must they state they hold?

Just from my personal experience, it does not appear that UM clergy are required to hold to any specific set of beliefs.

[cristianna]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think I'd have to agree with you. I fully believe there's some type of seminary/doctrine degrees that would need to be held. But given the vast varying from one church to another, I would imagine carving some beliefs in stone is not required.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I have a feeling we aren't talking hypotheticals. If this is a real situation it needs to be investigated.

[cristianna]

I'm not talking about merely staying silent during recitations of the creed. I'm talking about a pastor openly denying the atonement, and saying it's tantamount to encouraging child abuse.

:scratch: A Pastor? :confused:

I'm really confused now. A pastor is saying this? "Tantamount" to encouraging child abuse? Why? Because of Jesus' death on the cross? My mind, firstly can't focus past the first part, but "tantamount"? I'd love to know how.

I would talk to the Pastor because maybe they are just not clarifying what they are truly trying to get across (although it sounds quite clear). And if that's definitely what they feel and are preaching then the associate pastor, regardless of their prefix title. From there if I still wasn't happy I would move up even higher if need be.

That's one sticky situation.

[GraceSeeker]

They could just keep their mouth shut during that part.

No. That isn't an option. Remember, the first requirement is the recommendation of a local church. What local church that is worth it's salt would recommend someone for ministry that didn't even confess the basics of the Christian faith?


In addition, here are the specific questions that are required to be written on and then are followed by an oral examination:

1. Describe your personal experience of God and the understanding of God you derive from biblical, theological, and historical sources.

2. What is your understanding of evil as it exists in the world?

3. What is your understanding of humanity, and the human need for divine grace?

4. How do you interpret the statement Jesus Christ is Lord?

5. What is your conception of the activity of the Holy Spirit in personal faith, in the community of believers, and in responsible living in the world?

6. What is your understanding of the kingdom of God; the Resurrection; eternal life?

7. How do you intend to affirm, teach and apply Part II of the Discipline (Doctrinal Standards and Our Theological Task) in your work in the ministry to which you have been called?

8. The United Methodist Church holds that the living core of the Christian faith was revealed in Scripture, illumined by tradition, vivified in personal experience, and confirmed by reason. Waht is your understanding of this theological position of the Church?

9. Describe the nature and mission of the Church. What are the primary tasks today?

10. Discuss your understanding of the primary characteristics of United Methodist polity.

11. How do you perceive yourself, your gifts, your motives, your role, and your commitment as a probationary member and comissioned minister in the United Methodist Church? (Note: this is a step before ordination.)

12. Describe your understanding of diakonia, the servant ministry of the church, and the servant ministry of the probationary minister and commissioned minister.

13. What is the meaning of ordination in the context of the general ministry of the Church?

14. Describe your understanding of an inclusive church and ministry.

15. You have agreed as a candidate for the sake of the mission of Jesus Christ in the world and the most effective witness of the gospel, and in consideration of their influence as ministers, to make a complete dedication of yourself to the highest ideals of the Christian life, and to this end agree to exercise responsible self-control by personal habits conducive to bodily health, mental and emotional maturity, integrity in all personal relationships, fidelity in marriage and celibacy in singleness, social responsibility, and growth in grace and the knowledge and love of God. What is your understanding of this agreement?

16. Explain the role and significance of the sacraments in the ministry to which you have been called.

Each candidtate must also submit a autobiography of one's life and spiritual journey.

Each candidate must be approved by a 3/4ths vote of the district committee on ordained ministry and a 2/3rds votes of the conference board of ordained ministry.

Again, as one who has served on the district committee on ordained ministry, I can tell you that we look for completeness and depth of thought with regard to these questions. We don't look for everyone to necessarily spout the party line, because we recognize that there can be differences among Christians of good conscience with regard to some issues. But if anyone said anything too far afield from the theology of the church that would be a red-flag. And no matter what a person's view, they must be able to back it up and show why they hold to it and how they got to it.

We are neither trying to be rough nor easy on candidates. What we want is for every candidate to succeed and to serve effectively in the church. But if someone looks like they might now, we will tell them so and suggest additional study before continuing them to the next step, and when necessary we have simply moved to discontinue a person from candidacy status. There isn't a person on the boards or committeess who doesn't take their responsibilities seriously with regard to providing for a qualified clergy to serve in the churches of our respective annual conferences.


All of the above is to become a probationary member. As I said, the whole process repeats itself to become a full member. But the second set of questions are slightly different, and the interview process is considerably more intensive because now they should have not just education, but practical experience to reflect on as well. (You will note that some of the questions are similar to the previous set, and some are new. Plus, local conference's boards and committees may ask others.)


Theology
1. How has the practice of ministry affected your experience and understanding of God?

2. What effect has the practice of ministry had on your understanding of humanity and the need for divine grace?

3. What changes has the practice of ministry had on your understanding of (a) the "Lordship of Jesus Christ," and (b) the work of the Holy Spirit?

4. The United Methodist Church hold that Scripture, tradition, experience, and reason are sources and norms for belief and practice, but that the Bible is primary among them. What is your understanding of this theological position of the Church?

5. How do you understand the following traditional evangelical doctrines: (a) repentance; (b) justification; (c) regeneration; (d) sanctification? What are the marks of a holy life?

6. For the sake of the mission of Jesus Christ in the world and the most effective witness of the Christian gospel, and in consideration of your influence as an ordained minister, are you willing to make a complete dedication of yourself to the highest ideals of the Christian life; and to this end will you agree to exercise responsible self-control by personal habits conducive to physical health, intentional intellectual development, fidelity in marriage and celibacy in singleness, integrity in all personal relationships, social responsibility*, and growth in grace and the knowledge of the love of God?

*often understood to mean abstaining from alcohol and tobacco, among other things

7. What is the meaning and significance of the sacraments?

8. Describe the nature and mission of the Church. What are its primary tasks today?

9. What is your understanding of: (a) the kingdom of God; (b) the Resurrection; (c) eternal life?

Vocation
10. How do you understand your vocation as an ordained minister?

Practice of Ministry
11. How has the practice of ordained ministry affected your understanding of the expectations and obligations of the itinerant system?

12. Do you offer yourself without reserve to be appointed and to serve as the appointive authority may determine?

13. Describe and evaluate your personal gifts for ministry. What would be your areas of strength and areas in which you need to be strengthened?

14. Are you willing to minister with all persons without regard to race, color, ethnicity, national origin, social status, gender, sexual orientation, age, economic condition, or disabilities?

15. Will you regard all pastoral conversations of a confessional nature as a trust between the person concerned and God?

16. Provide evidence of experience in peace and justice.



Finally, after one has been examined by the Board of Ordained ministry on these questions, one is asked the following questions in front of the entire annual conference prior to ordination:

1. Have you faith in Christ?
2. Are you going on to perfection?
3. Do you expect to be made perfect in love in this life?
4. Are you earnestly striving after it?
5. Are you resolved to devote yourself wholly to God and his work?
6. Do you know the General Rules of our Church?
7. Will you keep them?
8. Have you studied the doctrines of The United Methodist Church?
9. After full examination, do you believe that our doctrines are in harmony with the Holy Scriptures?
10. Will you preach and maintain them?
11. Have you studied our form of Church discipline and polity?
12. Do you approve our Church government and polity?
13. Will you support and maintain them?
14. Will you diligently instruct the children in every place?
15. Will you visit from house to house?
16. Will you recommend fasting or abstinence, both by precept and example?
17. Are you determined to employ all your time in the work of God?
*18. Are you in debt so as to embarass you in your work?
19. Will you observe the following directions?
a) Be diligent. Never be unemployed. Never be triflingly employed. Never trifle away time (oops!, What am I doing on the internet?); neither spend any more time at any one place than is strictly necessary.
b) Be punctual. Do everything exactly at the time. And do not mend our rules, but keep them; not for wrath, but for conscience sake.

* All the rest are to be answed in the affirmative, but question #18 is to answered in the negative.

[cristianna]

Yeah, the forum's been buggy since the upgrade a couple of days ago. I've noticed posts out of order.

Back to topic: No, this is not hypothetical. I sit here looking at a book, co-written by a Methodist pastor, where such statements as I listed above are made.

It's called Proverbs of Ashes. (http://www.amazon.com/Proverbs-Ashes-Violence-Redemptive-Suffering/dp/0807067970/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206377502&sr=8-1)

Now, I'm a pretty liberal guy. I support the right of people to hold such views, as wrong as they may be. What I'm questioning is whether or not the United Methodist Church should be ordaining people who openly preach that...or, on a more personal note, whether or not Mr. and Mrs. Speculative and the two junior speculators should continue attending a church where such books are studied as a Lenten discipline.

Shocking I must say. A book huh? Honestly I do find it disturbing, enough to say I would consider anything else stated by the individual to be taken somewhat lightly and ensure all of it is biblically supported before taking any of it to heart.

But everyone is entitled to an opinion. I think right now what matters most is this is part of a Lent study. As far as your church I'd talk to your pastors about it. If any of them had read or knew of the book prior to assigning it as part of a study I'm certain there's good reason why. I'd definitely tell them I didn't like what was in it, didn't like the idea that they came across as semi-supporting it, etc and bluntly speaking why was it assigned.

[GraceSeeker]

Yes, I did, and I thank you. I've got a lot of questions about that as it pertains to my purpose for this thread..but I'm not going to ask them now. I think I'll give CF a break to see if some of the tech difficulties can be resolved :)


That will be fine. I expect to still be around, though rather busy, this week. Next week it might be harder to catch me for a couple of weeks, but I will be back. Hopefully by then the apparent rip in the fabric of time will have been healed.

[GraceSeeker]

Are posts posting out of order, or do I need to change my contacts?


Gee, Cristianna, I have no idea what you're talking about.

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For reference purposes this post was constructed at 2:30 AM, Sunday, March 9 and is post #220. :tutu:

[GraceSeeker]

There are most definitely both qualfications AND expectations for all persons who are candidates for ministry in the United Methodist Church. There is a whole process spelled out for it in the Discipline (where pretty much all things are spelled out regarding the United Methodist Church) and depending on whether one is to be a local pastor, deacon, associate member or full elder it can mean up to either a 3-year Masters of Divinity degree from a seminary or a 5-year course of study (also from a seminary) plus supervision and mentoring by another pastor.

There are a series of checks along the way -- as many as 15 different interviews -- to help assure that only qualified candidates are approved. It begins in the local church who has the initial responsibilit for recommending (or not recommending) a person who indicates that they desire to be a candidate for ministry in the United Methodist Church. Speaking as one who has served on a District Committee of Ordained Ministry, I can tell you that we depend very heavily on the local church (which we expect knows the moral character and personality of these individuals better than anyone else) to evaluate if the candidate is the sort of person that they would like to have appointed to them to as a pastor.

After beginning the process in the local church the district superintendent assigns each candidate a mentor whose job it is to help guide the candidate through a spiritual discernment process that this is God's call on their life that they are responding to and administratively through the many steps of the candidacy process.

Those steps include any required education (I've known some to have a sense of a call at 60, but they had never even completed high school), psychological testing, regular meetings with one's mentor, annual review by the district Committee on Ministry until one is prepared to be recommended to the annual conference Board of Ordained Ministry. (This recommendation is usually contigent on seeing growth in one's gifts and graces for ministry during the candidating process and satisfactory progress in one's educational studies.)

It is the annual conference Board of Ordained Ministry that interviews the candidate with regard to questions of theology, aptitude, attitude, and relationship skills. Also, by this time, the candidate usually has been given an opportunity to serve in some aspect of ministry and both those who supervise them in this ministry and those for whom they provide it are asked to provide evaluations and recommendations with regard to the candidate.

If one "passes" all of these steps, the Board of Ordained Ministry makes recommendation to the clergy session of the annual conference for the candidate to be accepted as a probationary member of the annual conference. This must be voted on by a majority of all the clergy members of the annual conference (though by this time only rarely are there any doubts with regard to a candidate). The candidate serves a couple of more years as a probationary member, usually pastoring a church, and then goes through the entire interview and recommendation process a second time after which they are ordained as an elder in full connection.

Here, this link probably spells out the process better than I did above: http://www.gbhem.org/site/c.lsKSL3POLvF/b.3738647/

[Speculative]

I guess I'm more interested in if they must state they believe certain things. Do they need to make some kind of affirmation of faith, or affirm the Nicene, Apostles, or Athanasian creed, or Old Roman Symbol?

Would a candidate who denied the divinity of Christ be approved as a UM pastor if they met all the other requirements?

[Redheadedstepchild]

:scratch:
Well seeing as we affirm the Nicene and Apostles creed in services I don't know how a candidate could avoid it.

[Speculative]

They could just keep their mouth shut during that part.

[cristianna]

I guess I'm more interested in if they must state they believe certain things. Do they need to make some kind of affirmation of faith, or affirm the Nicene, Apostles, or Athanasian creed, or Old Roman Symbol?

Would a candidate who denied the divinity of Christ be approved as a UM pastor if they met all the other requirements?

Now that's one interesting question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but firstly wouldn't one need to accept Christ to be considered a "Christian"? I would most definitely raise an eyebrow over one denying the divinity of Christ and being in a role like that. And if I felt that was the case I would certainly seek answers to find out if maybe I was reading them wrong, heard incorrect rumors or gossip, etc.

They could just keep their mouth shut during that part.
Are you asking from an experience you witnessed or have heard about? Not that your question isn't legit to even ponder about. But I would definitely be intrigued and would be asking them questions if I noticed a pattern of a them keeping their mouth shut.

[Speculative]

I'm not talking about merely staying silent during recitations of the creed. I'm talking about a pastor openly denying the atonement, and saying it's tantamount to encouraging child abuse.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I have a feeling we aren't talking hypotheticals. If this is a real situation it needs to be investigated.

[cristianna]

Are posts posting out of order, or do I need to change my contacts?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Yeah, everything has been nuts since Saturday when CF was down. *insert head banging on wall smilie here*

[Speculative]

Yeah, the forum's been buggy since the upgrade a couple of days ago. I've noticed posts out of order.

Back to topic: No, this is not hypothetical. I sit here looking at a book, co-written by a Methodist pastor, where such statements as I listed above are made.

It's called Proverbs of Ashes. (http://www.amazon.com/Proverbs-Ashes-Violence-Redemptive-Suffering/dp/0807067970/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206377502&sr=8-1)

Now, I'm a pretty liberal guy. I support the right of people to hold such views, as wrong as they may be. What I'm questioning is whether or not the United Methodist Church should be ordaining people who openly preach that...or, on a more personal note, whether or not Mr. and Mrs. Speculative and the two junior speculators should continue attending a church where such books are studied as a Lenten discipline.

[GraceSeeker]

Post appearing out of order. I hope you see my responses above (post #5 was in response to your posts #7 & #9) that now appear at the beginning of this thread, with incorrect time stamps.

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And as things seem to decide where they are going to go on their own, my latest post, a response to the one you made below, has now become a new #7 and the afore mentioned posts #7 & #9 have, for the moment, become posts #9 & #13. But don't worry, I'm sure that's only temporary.

[Speculative]

Post appearing out of order. I hope you see my responses above (post #5 was in response to your posts #& & #9) that now appear at the beginning of this thread, with incorrect time stamps.Yes, I did, and I thank you. I've got a lot of questions about that as it pertains to my purpose for this thread..but I'm not going to ask them now. I think I'll give CF a break to see if some of the tech difficulties can be resolved :)

[cristianna]

It's okay Speculative. I seem to find bumps in the road I like to plateau momentarily to harp on also- not often, just enough to make me realize what I'm doing.

It's one of my flaws I really want to hand over to God this year.

[Speculative]

Hi guys:wave:

I just made a big long post about this, and, as I did, I started to feel convicted that I'm just picking at old scabs, and maybe I should let them heal.

This book was from last year, and the pastor that led the study is no longer with our church.

So, there's really no reason, other than to pour salt in old wounds, to even bring this up.

I was just so shocked to read some of the stuff in that book, and I can't seem to let it go. (And yes, my obsession with this is driving my wife crazy. )

My God have mercy on me.:prayer:

[GraceSeeker]

Yeah, the forum's been buggy since the upgrade a couple of days ago. I've noticed posts out of order.

Back to topic: No, this is not hypothetical. I sit here looking at a book, co-written by a Methodist pastor, where such statements as I listed above are made.

It's called Proverbs of Ashes. (http://www.amazon.com/Proverbs-Ashes-Violence-Redemptive-Suffering/dp/0807067970/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206377502&sr=8-1)

Now, I'm a pretty liberal guy. I support the right of people to hold such views, as wrong as they may be. What I'm questioning is whether or not the United Methodist Church should be ordaining people who openly preach that...or, on a more personal note, whether or not Mr. and Mrs. Speculative and the two junior speculators should continue attending a church where such books are studied as a Lenten discipline.



Well, what to tell you? All of the above questions that I cited are about the process to become a minister in the United Methodist Church. Sometimes people find a committee that approves them when perhaps they shouldn't or another committee would not have. The other thing is that sometimes people change after they have been in ministry awhile. Actually we expect them to, and it usually is for the better, but sometimes those changes may not benefit the church. The problem is that we are not a confessional church, so while there are all these standards and questions for being admitted to the order of elder, it is harder to have someone removed. It would require a formal complaint and a specified charge. And for a Harvard professor that happens to have been ordained in the UMC would not likely for writing a book even if he/she writing views contrary is not likely to find someone willing to bring charges.

As for a local pastor, that is a difference story. Even if not charged with heresy, they can lose their appointment simply on the grounds of ineffectiveness. This actually happens quite a bit more than you might realize. But not all disagreements in theology would necessarily lead to this. In some cases it is just a bad fit with a particular church and the same pastor can do quite well in a different setting. There are so many variables to consider.

I'm glad for your sake that this issue really isn't before you anymore. How do you find the new pastor at your church? I'm not asking if you agree or disagree, but if you find the new pastor is one that is able to help you process theology on your own so that you are growing in your own Christian walk. After all that really is a pastor's priimary task, not so much to be the teacher of orthodoxy as it is to be the shepherd of the sheep.

With regard to your former pastor and experiences from a year ago, it might be that hanging on is hurting you and I doubt if it has any impact on either author or former pastor. So, you might be best served to find some way of just letting it go and moving on with your own Christian story. Praying that God will show you a way.

[Speculative]

GraceSeeker,

Thanks for your input and advice.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the new pastor, she's definitely on the liberal side, but she so far seems more traditional in her theology than the previous one.

your question about the new pastor is intriguing--to paraphrase you asked if she will help me to process theology on my own so that I'll be able to grow in my Christian walk, regardless of whether or not I agree with her.

I tried to answer that question, but I can't right now. I don't want to be unfair to her--she's just been there a few months, so it's really too early to tell.

We'll see. For now, I just don't know.