Why the ban?

[ContraMundum]

Why did HH Shenouda III ban Coptic Christians from visiting Israel until the Muslims take over again?

Does anyone know?

[copticorthodoxy]

Why did HH Shenouda III ban Coptic Christians from visiting Israel until the Muslims take over again?

Does anyone know?

It is not like that

There are a problems between the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria and Israel plus the political reasons

[ContraMundum]

It is not like that

There are a problems between the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria and Israel plus the political reasons

What problems could be so drastic that HH would say "I will not visit Jerusalem until it is delivered from the hands of the Jews into the hands of the Arabs. Then I will go to Jerusalem with my hand in the hand of Sheikh Al Azhar."?

(From "Interviews with Pope Shenouda" by Rajeb Al Banah. Cairo, Egypt: Dar-Al-Maarif, 1997)

Why would anyone want Jerusalem to be in the hands of the Muslims? Is His Holiness afraid of greater and further Muslim persecution in Egypt so he has to publically side with the Arabs? Is that it? I don't understand. I'm a great fan of Pope Shenouda, and have met him more than once. I had no idea about this until recently.

[EmperorConstantine]

While I'm not sure how my Oriental Orthodox brethren are treated in Palestine, I do know that while most of the Christians are Palestinian, they are still treated less than dirt regardless of the fact that they are not Muslim.

I can only imagine that the Oriental Orthodox are treated in a likewise manner by both the Jews and the Muslims.

Before 1948, Christians, overall, enjoyed a better sense of freedom and security than they do at present.

[ContraMundum]

OK....so it's based on a perception of racial fraternity with the Arabs?

I always thought the Copts regarded themselves as not Arab.

[EmperorConstantine]

OK....so it's based on a perception of racial fraternity with the Arabs?

I always thought the Copts regarded themselves as not Arab.
Copts are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. copticorthodoxy, if I am wrong there, please correct me.

As for Palestinians, I believe that they are more related to the Canaanites than the Arabs.

[copticorthodoxy]

Copts are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. copticorthodoxy, if I am wrong there, please correct me.

As for Palestinians, I believe that they are more related to the Canaanites than the Arabs.

We are not Arabs

We are the real Egyptians

[Anglian]

The Copts are not Arabs, and His Holiness' view is not based on any 'solidarity' with Arabs.

It is based on three things. The first is that the Palestinian Christians are treated badly by the Israelis. The second is the attitude to Israel towards the Oriental Orthodox in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; they tend to treat the Copts and Ethiopians and Armenians as second-class citizens. So HH's attitude is, in part, designed to save Oriental Orthodox from this sort of treatment.

The final consideration is that of international law. Although Israel likes to forget it, under international law Jerusalem is occupied territory; the Palestinians are still the legal guardians of the Holy City. His Holiness, unlike some, is recognising what the United Nations resolutions are trying to uphold. He takes the view that to visit Jerusalem is to tacitly recognise the illegal acts committed in 1967 by the state of Israel.

Jerusalem has not been a Christian city for a millennium. There is no Christian Power that could assume the role of ruler, so it is better that it should be ruled by those who are recognised by the UN as its historic rulers; that is not the State of Israel. It, rightly, protests the refusal of some Arabs to recognise the UN resolutions which created it; so it sets a bad example when it, in turn refuses to recognise UN resolutions 242 (22 November 1967) and 338 (22 October 1973) and 465.

The Pope's ban is based upon the twin demands that Israel should respect Christians and international law.

In peace,

Anglian

[ContraMundum]

The Copts are not Arabs, and His Holiness' view is not based on any 'solidarity' with Arabs.

Why do you think he made the "hand in hand" comment? Solidarity with the Muslim Shiekh?

It is based on three things. The first is that the Palestinian Christians are treated badly by the Israelis.

My Dad has a house and lives much of the year in Israel. He claims that such mis-treatment is an exaggeration, and that Christians are treated far better by the Israelis than by the Palestinians, especially since the PLO was founded. In fact, according to him, Christians are the ones mending the broken ties between Jew and Arab.

The second is the attitude to Israel towards the Oriental Orthodox in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; they tend to treat the Copts and Ethiopians and Armenians as second-class citizens.

Could you please elaborate?

I always thought the mis-treatment of the Orientals was from the Eastern Orthodox mainly.

[zhilan]

My Dad has a house and lives much of the year in Israel. He claims that such mis-treatment is an exaggeration, and that Christians are treated far better by the Israelis than by the Palestinians, especially since the PLO was founded. In fact, according to him, Christians are the ones mending the broken ties between Jew and Arab.


Is your dad Palestinian and is his house in the West Bank or Gaza?

My home church is mostly Arab Christian, quite a number from the West Bank and they certainly have no love for Israel.

Perhaps your dad's perspective is not from the view of those forced to live where they live?

There was a very interesting article from an Orthodox priest (or bishop I forget) talking about the way he was treated when traveling out of the West Bank and into Israel. I don't remember all the details, but he was treated very badly, but to him it was normal life there.

[Anglian]

Why do you think he made the "hand in hand" comment? Solidarity with the Muslim Shiekh?
[/color][/size][/font]
Dear Contramundum,

It could be that, although it is more likely to be an expression of solidarity with those oppressed. Israel remains in Jerusalem in clear violation of UN resolutions.
[QUOTE]My Dad has a house and lives much of the year in Israel. He claims that such mis-treatment is an exaggeration, and that Christians are treated far better by the Israelis than by the Palestinians, especially since the PLO was founded. In fact, according to him, Christians are the ones mending the broken ties between Jew and Arab.
That is good news; but one hears things differently when talking to some Palestinian Christians.

The Israelis have tended to take their cue from the Eastern Orthodox in the way they treat the OO; that is not to say that the OO have always responded in the way Our Lord did; all sin, all fall short.

The West may conveniently forget the UN resolutions and allow Israel to violate them, but one can understand why His Holiness does not wish to join them.

In peace,

Anglian

[ContraMundum]

Thanks Anglian,

There's always two sides of the story. :) There was discussion about the facts of the Middle East over at MF. Check it out here (http://christianforums.com/t7061794-twenty-suppressed-facts-about-the-middle-east.html).

Well, I have to admit right here though, and I hope you'll agree, that the Middle East is too big a problem for all the world's dignitaries to solve, so I doubt a few believers on a forum could solve it either. Just pray I guess!

[ContraMundum]

Is your dad Palestinian and is his house in the West Bank or Gaza?

No, we're Jewish and his town is known to be a popular rocket target when occasion arises. It's hard to live like that.

My home church is mostly Arab Christian, quite a number from the West Bank and they certainly have no love for Israel.

Perhaps your dad's perspective is not from the view of those forced to live where they live?

There was a very interesting article from an Orthodox priest (or bishop I forget) talking about the way he was treated when traveling out of the West Bank and into Israel. I don't remember all the details, but he was treated very badly, but to him it was normal life there.

One thing I know for sure- everybody in the Middle East feels like they are victims at some point. There is no "right side", that's for sure. No one wants to re-absorb the Palestinians and everyone wants to kill Jews. Only the Return of the Lord will settle this.

[Anglian]

Dear Contrmundum,

Yes, we can all surely agree that everyone involved in the tragic events in the region needs our prayers.

In peace,

Anglian

[Simon_Templar]

Copts are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. copticorthodoxy, if I am wrong there, please correct me.

As for Palestinians, I believe that they are more related to the Canaanites than the Arabs.
Palestinians are almost all ethnically arab.