Walter Martin, Desmond Ford, and Hebrews 9:12

[Your Neighbor]

ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος

NIV - "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."

NASB - "and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

NIV vs. NASB. Which is right?

OK. Who wants to start?

But before you do, you had better read Hebrews 9:1-3 in English and Greek.
English - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:1-3;&version=49;
Greek - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:1-3;&version=68;

[tall73]

If you just translate it normally it would be holy places. But the Greek singular can sometimes take a plural form. And we see it in this case refer to a singular at least once in verse 2.

The word itself is simply an adjective meaning "holy", used substantively.

The Daniel and Revelation Committee Series said the following about it after the Ford incident:

Salom, commenting on LXX usage, which is believed to form the background of the term:
Of the 170 uses of this word which had reference to the tabernacle or temple, the overwhelming majority (142) referred to the sanctuary in general. When used in this way τα αγια seemed to appear indiscriminately in the singular or plural, although more than twice as frequently in the plural. At the same time it should be pointed out that when it was used of either the outer or inner compartments it was more usually singular. With only four exceptions this use was found to be articular. This same general pattern seems to be followed (on a much smaller scale) in Hebrews.
Ta Hagia in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Salom

With the usage in mind then the DARCOM committee noted the following:

The committee believes that ta hagia should be regarded as a general term that should be translated in most instances as “sanctuary” unless the context clearly indicates otherwise (such as in chapter 9:2, 3).
Daniel and Revelation Committee Report


Others (Vance Ferrell for instance) see it exclusively as a reference to the holy place, at least in the book of Hebrews.

The reason the NIV and others will put Most Holy Place at times is due to their perception of the context.

[Your Neighbor]

It should be obvious to the careful reader of Hebrews 9:1-3, that "Most Holy Place" is NOT intended by the writer of Hebrews in v. 12.

In Hebrews 9:1, Paul used the Greek word "hagion" meaning the entire 2-apartment sanctuary. In Hebrews 9:2 Paul used the Greek word "Hagia" meaning the Holy Place.
In Hebrews 9:3, Paul used the Greek word, "hagia hagion", meaning the "Most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" or" Holiest"
However, when many translators find these words in Hebrews chapter nine and ten, instead of using them as Paul defined their use, (In Heb. 9:1-3), they instead translated them inconsistently with its original author.

The New American Standard Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 1977, translated these words (Hagion, Hagia & Hagia-Hagion), exactly as Paul defined their use throughout the entire book.

Many people have been trying to prove that Jesus did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, but in AD 31. Others, that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in AD 1844 not in AD 31. From our study of the Bible, it is clear that Jesus DID NOT enter the Most Holy Place in AD 31. He entered the Holy Place (Hagia) at that time.

...the Book of Hebrews, chapter 9 states that Jesus went into the "Hagia" or Holy Place after the resurrection (that is AD 31!) and not into the Most Holy place as many of the modern Bible translations state. Thus, is a plain bible truth that Jesus entered the sanctuary in heaven in the first apartment (Holy place) as many accurate Bible versions also document.
from http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary3.html

[Your Neighbor]

A "must read" for any SDA: http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary.html
http://www.bibleministry.org/images/santuario2.jpg

[Bourbaki]

Of the 170 uses of this word which had reference to the tabernacle or temple, the overwhelming majority (142) referred to the sanctuary in general. When used in this way τα αγια seemed to appear indiscriminately in the singular or plural, although more than twice as frequently in the plural. At the same time it should be pointed out that when it was used of either the outer or inner compartments it was more usually singular. With only four exceptions this use was found to be articular. This same general pattern seems to be followed (on a much smaller scale) in Hebrews.
Ta Hagia in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Salom

If it's good enough for the Septuagint it's good enough for me. Why doesn't Des Ford see that it fits the context also?

[OntheDL]

Hebrews 9
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all(39 39);

39 39: Hagion hagion: holy of holy


7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all (39) was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

39 Hagion: holy place.

Here the Greek is hagion. This is a serious problem. By its content, vs8 is clearly the MHP, but the Greek text is HP. This is inconsistent.

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place (39), having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

39: hagion: holy place

Vs12 strongly suggests here the room is MHP. Another problem with the inconsistent Greek text.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places (39) made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

39: hagion: holy place


25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place (39) every year with blood of others;

39: hagion: Holy Place

Again, the high priest enters the Most Holy Place. So Greek here should have been hagion hagion. Another textual problem.



Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest(39) by the blood of Jesus,

39: hagion

Here again the Greek is hagion while the text clearly shows the room is MHP. It should have been hagion hagio.

My theory for this inconsistency is that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Aramaic. There’re not enough evidence to strongly support this. However I think this is a possibility. My next step would be checking the Syriac Pershitta, the Aramaic New Testament to see what words were used in the book of Hebrews.


The author of Hebrews did not dismiss the annual atonement service where the high priest entered once a year into the MHP (Heb 9:1-7). It confirms and uses it as a type for the heavenly to be purified (vs 23).

However, we see clearly, the author of Hebrews was trying the persuade the new Hebrew Christians away from the earthly sacrificial service and to focus on Jesus’ heavenly ministry which was ratified by His blood and inaugurated upon His ascension.

This was typified by the Old Testament dedication ceremonies of the tabernacle and of the High Priest, Exodus 29, 30, Leviticus 8.

Immediately before the anointing of the high priest, the sanctuary was dedicated. The Ark of Testimony was anointed with oil and Aaron presented the wave offering before the LORD.

Towards the end of the 70 week prophecy, God’s people were asked to anoint the Most Holy, Daniel 9:24. John saw this inauguration ceremony fulfilled in heaven in Revelation 5: 5-13.

The spirit of prophecy noted:

“Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as the ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise, He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers, as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people"---The Acts of The Apostles, p38-39.

"Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin." ---The Signs of the Times, April 19 1905.

In the antitypical Old Testament inauguration service, the high priest was anointed with oil. The oil was poured over his head, it dripped down along his hair and beard unto the ground. This pointed the pentecostal outpouring of the holy spirit the believers received from heaven upon the completion of Jesus' inauguration as our heavenly high priest.

[Bourbaki]

the contex is key here. Hebrews is talking about "once a year" the high priest enters the "ta hagia", well lets see here just a minute, the high priest entered the holy place every day called the "daily" and once a year he entered the Most Holy place. Could it be that he is saying that "ta hagia" is refering to the "once" entering of the high priest into the MHP and that Christ fulfilled that when he entered heaven. hum that would be too easy now. Hum obvious

Interpreting an author's meaning from a single word is even more reckless than the arrogant yet superficial logic of unbelieving Bible scholars that exegete from many words (the book of Daniel, for example) and come up with the conclusion that they are right and Jesus was wrong.

[icedragon101]

Interpreting an author's meaning from a single word is even more reckless than the arrogant yet superficial logic of unbelieving Bible scholars that exegete from many words (the book of Daniel, for example) and come up with the conclusion that they are right and Jesus was wrong.


what are you talking about?

[icedragon101]

Hebrews 9
2 For there was a tabernacle made (the whole thing); the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; (the first aprtment)
which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil,(the second aprtment
) the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all(39 39);

39 39: Hagion hagion: holy of holy


7 But into the second (2nd apartment) [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all (39) (the 2nd apartment)was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

39 Hagion: holy place.

Here the Greek is hagion. This is a serious problem. By its content, vs8 is clearly the MHP, but the Greek text is HP. This is inconsistent. (this is a problem for adventist, yet it is consistiant with it's inconsistancy)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place (39), having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. (context tells us this is talking about the 2nd apartment)

39: hagion: holy place

Vs12 strongly suggests here the room is MHP. Another problem with the inconsistent Greek text.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places (39) (still a reference to the 2nd apartment and notice it is "heaven")
made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

39: hagion: holy place


25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place (39) every year with blood of others; (notice another reference to the MHP, onec a year, Holy place is "daily")

39: hagion: Holy Place

Again, the high priest enters the Most Holy Place. So Greek here should have been hagion hagion. Another textual problem.



Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest(39) by the blood of Jesus, (2nd apartment)

39: hagion

Here again the Greek is hagion while the text clearly shows the room is MHP. It should have been hagion hagio.

My theory for this inconsistency is that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Aramaic. There’re not enough evidence to strongly support this. However I think this is a possibility. My next step would be checking the Syriac Pershitta, the Aramaic New Testament to see what words were used in the book of Hebrews. that is a really good idea


The author of Hebrews did not dismiss the annual atonement service where the high priest entered once a year into the MHP (Heb 9:1-7). It confirms and uses it as a type for the heavenly to be purified (vs 23).

However, we see clearly, the author of Hebrews was trying the persuade the new Hebrew Christians away from the earthly sacrificial service and to focus on Jesus’ heavenly ministry which was ratified by His blood and inaugurated upon His ascension.

This was typified by the Old Testament dedication ceremonies of the tabernacle and of the High Priest, Exodus 29, 30, Leviticus 8.

Immediately before the anointing of the high priest, the sanctuary was dedicated. The Ark of Testimony was anointed with oil and Aaron presented the wave offering before the LORD.

Towards the end of the 70 week prophecy, God’s people were asked to anoint the Most Holy, Daniel 9:24. John saw this inauguration ceremony fulfilled in heaven in Revelation 5: 5-13.

The spirit of prophecy noted:

“Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as the ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise, He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers, as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people"---The Acts of The Apostles, p38-39.

"Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin." ---The Signs of the Times, April 19 1905.

In the antitypical Old Testament inauguration service, the high priest was anointed with oil. The oil was poured over his head, it dripped down along his hair and beard unto the ground. This pointed the pentecostal outpouring of the holy spirit the believers received from heaven upon the completion of Jesus' inauguration as our heavenly high priest.
comment in blue

[Your Neighbor]

NASB gets it right.

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/audio/flash_play.php?aid=26&book=65&chapter=9

[Bourbaki]

“Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people.” —Acts of the Apostles, pp. 38-39.

“Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin.” —Signs of the Times, April 19, 1905.
Yes indeed. The inauguration of the Heavenly Sanctuary took place at Christ’s ascension.

Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,

"THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."

And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; —Hebrews 9:18-24. (New American Standard Bible)
Please note that the Apostle Paul in these verses is referring back to Exodus 24:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2024:6-8;&version=31;), which is even before the sanctuary was constructed (Exodus 25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2025;&version=31;)).

inauguration
n.
1. Formal induction into office.
2. A formal beginning or introduction.
The essence of Old Testament sanctuary typology that Adventists rely on for their eschatology may be summarized as follows:

The sanctuary services emphasized three aspects of Christ’s work for us: sacrifice, mediation, and judgment. In general, the three parts of the sanctuary corresponded to these three kinds of ministry. Sacrifice occurred in the court, mediation in the holy place, and judgment in the Most Holy Place.I pity those who can’t distinguish between the beginning of Christ’s heavenly ministry and the end of it.

[Bourbaki]

Thank you good Neighbor for posting a relevant truth that the avowed enemies of Seventh-day Adventism can't answer:

In Hebrews 9:1, Paul used the Greek word "hagion" meaning the entire 2-apartment sanctuary. In Hebrews 9:2 Paul used the Greek word "Hagia" meaning the Holy Place.
In Hebrews 9:3, Paul used the Greek word, "hagia hagion", meaning the "Most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" or" Holiest"
However, when many translators find these words in Hebrews chapter nine and ten, instead of using them as Paul defined their use, (In Heb. 9:1-3), they instead translated them inconsistently with its original author.

The New American Standard Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 1977, translated these words (Hagion, Hagia & Hagia-Hagion), exactly as Paul defined their use throughout the entire book.

Many people have been trying to prove that Jesus did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, but in AD 31. Others, that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in AD 1844 not in AD 31. From our study of the Bible, it is clear that Jesus DID NOT enter the Most Holy Place in AD 31. He entered the Holy Place (Hagia) at that time.

...the Book of Hebrews, chapter 9 states that Jesus went into the "Hagia" or Holy Place after the resurrection (that is AD 31!) and not into the Most Holy place as many of the modern Bible translations state. Thus, is a plain bible truth that Jesus entered the sanctuary in heaven in the first apartment (Holy place) as many accurate Bible versions also document.
from http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary3.html

[OntheDL]

Many people have been trying to prove that Jesus did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, but in AD 31. Others, that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in AD 1844 not in AD 31. From our study of the Bible, it is clear that Jesus DID NOT enter the Most Holy Place in AD 31. He entered the Holy Place (Hagia) at that time.

...the Book of Hebrews, chapter 9 states that Jesus went into the "Hagia" or Holy Place after the resurrection (that is AD 31!) and not into the Most Holy place as many of the modern Bible translations state. Thus, is a plain bible truth that Jesus entered the sanctuary in heaven in the first apartment (Holy place) as many accurate Bible versions also document.
from http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary3.html


I would have to disagree with above statements.

Aaron during the dedication ceremony entered into the Most Holy Place to appear before the LORD, Exodus 29, 30, Leviticus 18. Afterwards, the Daily service took place in the court and in the holy place until the Day of Atonement, Aaron again entered into the Most Holy.

Upon ascension in 31AD, Jesus entered into Most Holy to inaugurate His heavenly ministry and as our high priest.

"Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin." ---The Signs of the Times, April 19 1905.

The spirit of prophecy supports the inauguration view.

[Bourbaki]

OntheDL,

The issue in this thread is how key passages in the book of Hebrews should be translated and it seems to me that you’re just skating around the Biblical argument cited by Neighbor.

As soon as we can agree on the proper translation, it would then be logical to move on to the question of Biblical interpretation. I believe as I’ve already indicated, that the meaning of the two compartments indicate a change of ministry, which points to the end of all things and you seem to be insinuating that the dispute is all about celestial geography. I’ve already said that I agree that the inauguration of the Heavenly Sanctuary took place at Christ’s ascension and that obviously covers the Most Holy place.

Aaron during the dedication ceremony entered into the Most Holy Place to appear before the LORD, Exodus 29, 30, Leviticus 18.
To argue that an initial dedication ceremony invalidates any special meaning to the end of the Jewish year second apartment ministry seems unreasonable to me. Woe to those who can’t distinguish between the beginning of Christ’s heavenly ministry and the end of it.

[OntheDL]

OntheDL,

The issue in this thread is how key passages in the book of Hebrews should be translated and it seems to me that you’re just skating around the Biblical argument cited by Neighbor.

As soon as we can agree on the proper translation, it would then be logical to move on to the question of Biblical interpretation. I believe as I’ve already indicated, that the meaning of the two compartments indicate a change of ministry, which points to the end of all things and you seem to be insinuating that the dispute is all about celestial geography. I’ve already said that I agree that the inauguration of the Heavenly Sanctuary took place at Christ’s ascension and that obviously covers the Most Holy place.

Because some (modern) translations render the word in Heb 9:12 as Most Holy Place, the location is essential as the type must meet antitype.

You can not build a defense around the Greek wordings. Look up the Strong's numbers in Hebrews 9. The usage is inconsistent.

As I said in my previous post, I suspect the book of Hebrews was written in Aramaic originally. Thus the inconsistency.


To argue that an initial dedication ceremony invalidates any special meaning to the end of Jewish year second apartment ministry seems unreasonable to me. Woe to those who can’t distinguish between the beginning of Christ’s heavenly ministry and the end of it.

Nowhere have I said the dedication service invalidates the Adventist's 1844 message(Reread my posts). I'm saying rather, the Adventists need to reconcile with Heb 9:12 and the ST, 4-19-1905 quote and understand what the sanctuary message actually teaches.

[Bourbaki]

OntheDL,

I noticed that you danced right past the following:

In Hebrews 9:1, Paul used the Greek word "hagion" meaning the entire 2-apartment sanctuary. In Hebrews 9:2 Paul used the Greek word "Hagia" meaning the Holy Place.
In Hebrews 9:3, Paul used the Greek word, "hagia hagion", meaning the "Most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" or" Holiest"
However, when many translators find these words in Hebrews chapter nine and ten, instead of using them as Paul defined their use, (In Heb. 9:1-3), they instead translated them inconsistently with its original author.

The New American Standard Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 1977, translated these words (Hagion, Hagia & Hagia-Hagion), exactly as Paul defined their use throughout the entire book.This principle is laughably simple. No doubt that you must reason in a circle by presupposing that the book of Hebrews is corrupt. I accept your confession. I also note that you have no proof of anything.

[Jimlarmore]

Hebrews 9
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all(39 39);

39 39: Hagion hagion: holy of holy


7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all (39) was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

39 Hagion: holy place.

Here the Greek is hagion. This is a serious problem. By its content, vs8 is clearly the MHP, but the Greek text is HP. This is inconsistent.

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place (39), having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

39: hagion: holy place

Vs12 strongly suggests here the room is MHP. Another problem with the inconsistent Greek text.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places (39) made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

39: hagion: holy place


25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place (39) every year with blood of others;

39: hagion: Holy Place

Again, the high priest enters the Most Holy Place. So Greek here should have been hagion hagion. Another textual problem.



Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest(39) by the blood of Jesus,

39: hagion

Here again the Greek is hagion while the text clearly shows the room is MHP. It should have been hagion hagio.

My theory for this inconsistency is that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Aramaic. There’re not enough evidence to strongly support this. However I think this is a possibility. My next step would be checking the Syriac Pershitta, the Aramaic New Testament to see what words were used in the book of Hebrews.


The author of Hebrews did not dismiss the annual atonement service where the high priest entered once a year into the MHP (Heb 9:1-7). It confirms and uses it as a type for the heavenly to be purified (vs 23).

However, we see clearly, the author of Hebrews was trying the persuade the new Hebrew Christians away from the earthly sacrificial service and to focus on Jesus’ heavenly ministry which was ratified by His blood and inaugurated upon His ascension.

This was typified by the Old Testament dedication ceremonies of the tabernacle and of the High Priest, Exodus 29, 30, Leviticus 8.

Immediately before the anointing of the high priest, the sanctuary was dedicated. The Ark of Testimony was anointed with oil and Aaron presented the wave offering before the LORD.

Towards the end of the 70 week prophecy, God’s people were asked to anoint the Most Holy, Daniel 9:24. John saw this inauguration ceremony fulfilled in heaven in Revelation 5: 5-13.

The spirit of prophecy noted:

“Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as the ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise, He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers, as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people"---The Acts of The Apostles, p38-39.

"Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin." ---The Signs of the Times, April 19 1905.

In the antitypical Old Testament inauguration service, the high priest was anointed with oil. The oil was poured over his head, it dripped down along his hair and beard unto the ground. This pointed the pentecostal outpouring of the holy spirit the believers received from heaven upon the completion of Jesus' inauguration as our heavenly high priest.

This is good work and good assessement OntheDL. I am currently studying with my pastor on this and we are aligned with you pretty much. He has all of the latest published work from the Daniel and Revelation committee and the glacierview work.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Jon0388g]

Thank you good Neighbor for posting a relevant truth that the avowed enemies of Seventh-day Adventism can't answer:

In Hebrews 9:1, Paul used the Greek word "hagion" meaning the entire 2-apartment sanctuary. In Hebrews 9:2 Paul used the Greek word "Hagia" meaning the Holy Place.
In Hebrews 9:3, Paul used the Greek word, "hagia hagion", meaning the "Most Holy" or "Holy of Holies" or" Holiest"
However, when many translators find these words in Hebrews chapter nine and ten, instead of using them as Paul defined their use, (In Heb. 9:1-3), they instead translated them inconsistently with its original author.

The New American Standard Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, 1977, translated these words (Hagion, Hagia & Hagia-Hagion), exactly as Paul defined their use throughout the entire book.

Many people have been trying to prove that Jesus did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, but in AD 31. Others, that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in AD 1844 not in AD 31. From our study of the Bible, it is clear that Jesus DID NOT enter the Most Holy Place in AD 31. He entered the Holy Place (Hagia) at that time.

...the Book of Hebrews, chapter 9 states that Jesus went into the "Hagia" or Holy Place after the resurrection (that is AD 31!) and not into the Most Holy place as many of the modern Bible translations state. Thus, is a plain bible truth that Jesus entered the sanctuary in heaven in the first apartment (Holy place) as many accurate Bible versions also document.
from http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary3.html


Bourbaki, the overall conclusion of your post is correct, but both the Bible and SOP support Christ entered the MHP in AD 31, but only to inaugurate the sanctuary, not to fulfill the DOA.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Daniel 9:25



Because some (modern) translations render the word in Heb 9:12 as Most Holy Place, the location is essential as the type must meet antitype.

You can not build a defense around the Greek wordings. Look up the Strong's numbers in Hebrews 9. The usage is inconsistent.

As I said in my previous post, I suspect the book of Hebrews was written in Aramaic originally. Thus the inconsistency.

DL, there is no inconsistency in the greek usage.

"Hagia" is the term defined by Paul to designate the first compartment of the sanctuary, the holy place. The MHP is "hagia hagiOn" which is only used once in all of Hebrews.


As the high priest entereth the holy place 'every year' is not the same as 'once every year'. There is some debate as to whether 'every year' is equivalently translated as 'throughout the year' or 'year by year'.



Jon

[OntheDL]

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Daniel 9:25


That's right. Hebrew kodesh kodeshim for the Most Holy is always used to refer to places or objects, never persons.




DL, there is no inconsistency in the greek usage.

"Hagia" is the term defined by Paul to designate the first compartment of the sanctuary, the holy place. The MHP is "hagia hagiOn" which is only used once in all of Hebrews.

As the high priest entereth the holy place 'every year' is not the same as 'once every year'. There is some debate as to whether 'every year' is equivalently translated as 'throughout the year' or 'year by year'.

Jon

Jon,

I think you are probably right about 'year by year'. 'every year' in Heb 9:25 is kat eniuatos. The same Greek words used in Heb 10:1 that KJV translated as year by year.

Look at the following verses

Hebrews 10
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

It's obvious to me Paul was speaking to the believers who were sanctified in the holy place. Through the veil, that is to say his flesh: the second veil that torn in half upon His death. From vs 16, 17, I think we can see Paul basically encouraged the believers who are sanctified in the holy spirit to face judgment (in the MHP) with confidence.

KJV translation for vs 19 is the holiest. The Greek word is Hagion (39).

[icedragon101]

A "must read" for any SDA: http://www.bibleministry.org/sanctuary.html
http://www.bibleministry.org/images/santuario2.jpg is this a pro SDA view or an opposing advestist veiw

[icedragon101]

Hebrews 9
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all(39 39); is it my imagination or is the first called the sanctuary & the Second called the tabernacle? does any one else see this?

[Jon0388g]

Jon,

I think you are probably right about 'year by year'. 'every year' in Heb 9:25 is kat eniuatos. The same Greek words used in Heb 10:1 that KJV translated as year by year.

Exactly. The 'kat eniautov' in 9:25 is different to the 'apac tou eniautou' used in 9:7, meaning the definite 'once' per year.



Look at the following verses

Hebrews 10
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

It's obvious to me Paul was speaking to the believers who were sanctified in the holy place.

Agreed.


Through the veil, that is to say his flesh: the second veil that torn in half upon His death. From vs 16, 17, I think we can see Paul basically encouraged the believers who are sanctified in the holy spirit to face judgment (in the MHP) with confidence.

KJV translation for vs 19 is the holiest. The Greek word is Hagion (39).

I would disagree here.

The fact Paul is talking to sanctified believers by the holy place is clear in 10:19 - "ta hagia" is used again which designates the holy place, first compartment.


The reference to "through the veil, that is, His flesh" is the inauguration ("which He hath consecrated") of the Heavenly Sanctuary. Nothing to do with judgment - this was not relevant to the Hebrew audience in Paul's day.



Remeber in the typical service the penitent believer entered the holy place with the Priest by his faith in the blood of the sacrificial animal. Paul is now saying we have boldness to enter the heavenly holy place, not through the blood of goats or calves, but by the precious blood of Christ, which makes an atonement for our confessed sins. This is the Living Way which He has consecrated through the veil.


Jon

[OntheDL]

The reference to "through the veil, that is, His flesh" is the inauguration ("which He hath consecrated") of the Heavenly Sanctuary. Nothing to do with judgment - this was not relevant to the Hebrew audience in Paul's day.

I think that's correct.

Remeber in the typical service the penitent believer entered the holy place with the Priest by his faith in the blood of the sacrificial animal. Paul is now saying we have boldness to enter the heavenly holy place, not through the blood of goats or calves, but by the precious blood of Christ, which makes an atonement for our confessed sins. This is the Living Way which He has consecrated through the veil.


That's good interpretation. I'll have to think it over. Thanks for the reply.