Messianic Judaism

[PBM68]

Is it alive on this forum? I like this way of coming to the most powerful force in the universe, Our God Yaweh.
Jah way. So please enterain me with some member who are messianic jews. Jesus IS our messiah!

[Kris10leigh]

:wave: Hello again! I responded to you in the other forum also. I love to pop in over here and see what everyone's discussing. I think the discussions are quite thought provoking over here. You get people from many different perspectives here.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is it alive on this forum? I like this way of coming to the most powerful force in the universe, Our God Yaweh.
Jah way. So please enterain me with some member who are messianic jews. Jesus IS our messiah!Yepperz!!!!!! :amen:
Can someone help me out on this thread concerning Zech 8:23? I believe most, if perhaps not all of Revelation to be fulfilled on the OC nations of "judah/israel". Peace. :wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5800024-the-man-in-zech-823.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 8:22 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-You that We-hear Elohiym with-You'.
Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were Saved/eswzonto <4982> (5712).

[woden]

Though I'm not of the Messianic Jewish faith the scripture you quoted in Zechariah will be fulfilled and is being fulfilled with Spiritual Israel eluded to in Rev.7:4-8. The Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, who was sent by God. As God had always said what would happen if the nation turned against him, he was true to his word. So after Pentecost 33CE when Holy Spirit was poured out, God turned His attention to people of the nations: people who were not by birth Jews. When God turns his attention to something it is for a reason and purpose. From Pentecost 33CE, spiritual Israel started to be formed. From these comes the fulfillment of Zech.8:22 for what good things can be said about fleshly Israel today? In whom do they put their trust? Men, governments and the UN. Is God with political Israel?

So Spiritual Israel is the vehicle that God uses today to draw people to Him, just as Israel used to do in antiquity. But in which faith is Spiritual Israel found? That is something everyone has to determine in their hearts for themselves.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is it alive on this forum? I like this way of coming to the most powerful force in the universe, Our God Yaweh.
Jah way. So please enterain me with some member who are messianic jews. Jesus IS our messiah!
No.

[cyberlizard]

Is it alive on this forum? I like this way of coming to the most powerful force in the universe, Our God Yaweh.
Jah way. So please enterain me with some member who are messianic jews. Jesus IS our messiah!


messianic judaism is alive and well on this forum and can be found under the 'congregations' section under 'messianic', althouth i label myself simply as christian, I am torah observant, keep shabbat and the feasts, and eat only clean foods. I am also not Jewish.


Steve

p.s. i do not wish to debate these issues with anyone

[Kris10leigh]

messianic judaism is alive and well on this forum and can be found under the 'congregations' section under 'messianic', althouth i label myself simply as christian, I am torah observant, keep shabbat and the feasts, and eat only clean foods. I am also not Jewish.


Steve

p.s. i do not wish to debate these issues with anyone
:thumbsup:

[2ducklow]

messianic judaism is alive and well on this forum and can be found under the 'congregations' section under 'messianic', althouth i label myself simply as christian, I am torah observant, keep shabbat and the feasts, and eat only clean foods. I am also not Jewish.


Steve

p.s. i do not wish to debate these issues with anyonethen don't. But I find it kinda strange when people come in debate rooms, state their beliefs, then say Don't debate with me about it. Sorta says to me that they don't want to find out that their suspicions that their doctrine is wrong are valid. Do you go into the game rooms saying " I don't want to play games."? do you go in the philosophy rooms and say, "I don't want to discuss philosophy"?


Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Being a Jew means nothing. What matters is being a follower of Jesus.

[Kris10leigh]

2Duck, while I see what you're saying, sometimes this is the only place to go, even when you don't want to debate. For instance, my recent trinity thread was shoved over here and I did not want it to be. Unfortunately, this board isn't truly a debate board, though you may want it to be.

[2ducklow]

2Duck, while I see what you're saying, sometimes this is the only place to go, even when you don't want to debate. For instance, my recent trinity thread was shoved over here and I did not want it to be. Unfortunately, this board isn't truly a debate board, though you may want it to be.the way I see it is if someone doesn't want to debate, then just don't respond to any analysis of what they said. Others might. why do they get upset if I analysise what they say? They don't have to read what I say and they don't have to respond. and I believe you are wrong this is a debate room.

here's what it says under unorthodox religon.

"
A forum to discuss theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)"

So I come in here to discuss it, not listen to what people say and not discuss it.

[Kris10leigh]

You're right, I sometimes wonder why people respond too.

All I'm saying is that while this may/should be a debate room, sometimes it just ain't so. This is where all trinity threads come to be bullied.

[2ducklow]

You're right, I sometimes wonder why people respond too.

All I'm saying is that while this may/should be a debate room, sometimes it just ain't so. This is where all trinity threads come to be bullied.
My observation is that you like to have someone say what they believe, then you say what you believe. Me on the other hand, I like to hear what someone says, and analyise it, say why i think it's right or wrong.

As I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the two, except your way is more gentile, and my way is more masculine aggresive like.

[Kris10leigh]

My observation is that you like to have someone say what they believe, then you say what you believe. Me on the other hand, I like to hear what someone says, and analyise it, say why i think it's right or wrong.

As I see it, there's not a lot of difference in the two, except your way is more gentile, and my way is more masculine aggresive like.
Where is that nail/hammer picture that floats around? ;) You hit the nail on the head. Very observational of you.

[Peter]

Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity. The word Christ is the English equal to the Greek word "Christos." This Greek word is equal to the Hebrew "Messhiach," or Messiah in English.

I suggest you read the words of the original Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah. They are found in Acts 15:29. No feasts. No festivals. No shabbats. No dietary laws that forbid pork or shellfish. Just three simple things...

[Kris10leigh]

Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity. The word Christ is the English equal to the Greek word "Christos." This Greek word is equal to the Hebrew "Messhiach," or Messiah in English.

I suggest you read the words of the original Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah. They are found in Acts 15:29. No feasts. No festivals. No shabbats. No dietary laws that forbid pork or shellfish. Just three simple things...
I agree that the word "Messianic" refers to belief in the Messiah, but I greatly disagree that Messianic Judaism is "simply Christianity". It is not. MJ rejects much of Christian doctrine and many people who follow MJism reject Christian holidays (Christmas, Easter) as being Pagan holidays and therfore not of God. In fact, many Messianic Jews will not call themselves Christian at alll. It is not a Christian denomination.

I believe in the hearts of people and the heart of most Christians is good and that the intent is good, so I'm not hard nosed about this. However, the way I see it, MJism is a great attempt at following our Jewish Messiah the way He wanted to be followed, whereas Christianity is a religion created by man as man's best attempt at following Jesus in a way that could separate them from the Jews as much as possible.

Again though, I can't imagine any Christian agreeing with what I said and I can see those words as being highly offensive. We are following the same God and the same Yeshua in different ways, and that is fine with me. I think we are brothers, but not the same.

[2ducklow]

I agree that the word "Messianic" refers to belief in the Messiah, but I greatly disagree that Messianic Judaism is "simply Christianity". It is not. MJ rejects much of Christian doctrine and many people who follow MJism reject Christian holidays (Christmas, Easter) as being Pagan holidays and therfore not of God. In fact, many Messianic Jews will not call themselves Christian at alll. It is not a Christian denomination.what do you think of these verses then? (trying to be gentil, it's hard for me goes against my nature, I feel like i should hold my wrist limp being gentil)

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.



I believe in the hearts of people and the heart of most Christians is good and that the intent is good, so I'm not hard nosed about this. However, the way I see it, MJism is a great attempt at following our Jewish Messiah the way He wanted to be followed, whereas Christianity is a religion created by man as man's best attempt at following Jesus in a way that could separate them from the Jews as much as possible.

My opinion is that everyone has muddy water and none of us have the pure doctrine of Christ yet. Some have muddier water than others but we all got mud in our watr, I'm specifically refering to the river that flows out of the throne of God in Ezekiel. I think most christians, or MJS too if you prefer, believe that they have the correct doctrine completely, or almost completely. but I don't think so, I think we all gota ways to go yet.


[quote=kris]

Again though, I can't imagine any Christian agreeing with what I said and I can see those words as being highly offensive. We are following the same God and the same Yeshua in different ways, and that is fine with me. I think we are brothers, but not the same.

I don't find it offensive, but what do you think about the highlighted portion of Gal. 2.14 below ( was I gentil?)

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

[cyberlizard]

Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity. The word Christ is the English equal to the Greek word "Christos." This Greek word is equal to the Hebrew "Messhiach," or Messiah in English.

I suggest you read the words of the original Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah. They are found in Acts 15:29. No feasts. No festivals. No shabbats. No dietary laws that forbid pork or shellfish. Just three simple things...


excellent point... it just overlooks a couple of things....

paul continued to keep the feasts (even after his apparent conversion to a new religion called 'christianity'.) - he was eager to return for shavuot.

paul continued to offer sacrifices in the temple after his alleged conversion to another religion called 'christianity'.) - he shaved his hair as part of a nazarite vow, would have offered a bull as part of the nazarite vow, and would have gone through a ritual period of purification as part of the same nazarite vow.

the new believers were zealous for the law/torah (even though some teach it is no longer relevant. - Acts 21v10).

the law/torah is described as 'the perfect law' and the 'the law of liberty' by James.

paul said "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

paul said "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”

paul said “Circumcision is nothing (in respect to gaining salvation), and uncircumcision is nothing (in respect to gaining salvation), but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.”

Paul had been accused of “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs,” - however this accusation was not true.

Paul encouraged believers in Corinth to 'keep the feast (of Passover)'.

John said in revelation that those who overcame, were those who, "observed the commands and held to the testimony of Jesus the Messiah"

and finally, Jesus our final authority said

“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven,”.

a lot depends if your theology is built on scripture, or church history (and their interpretation of what scripture says".

Messianic Judaism is a 'judaism'. The idea that the early disciples converted to a new religion called christianity cannot be substantiated from the new testament.... in fact the word 'christianity' is not even found in the entire bible.

closing in response to the Acts 15 verse, look at the next verse, 'for moses is preached in all the cities every Sabbath'. The premise, these are the starting blocks, go from there. Learn as you go.


BUT

observance of the law will not save, though it will provide a walk of righteousness. Faith without works is dead, they are two sides of the same coin.


Steve

[Kris10leigh]

what do you think of these verses then? (trying to be gentil, it's hard for me goes against my nature, I feel like i should hold my wrist limp being gentil)
You're awesome. ;) You don't have to change your style of posting for me. I do feel like it's a nice discussion though. I think we'll catch on to our differences.

For my own thought process, I'm going to use a different translation:
28Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"

Agrippa says these words with impatience and frustration. He does not believe what Paul is saying to him. And at this time, Christianity means little more than being a follower of Christ. A lot more baggage comes with the term today.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

In this verse, Peter is sharing with the people that he hopes they do not suffer as murderers or as thieves, but that if they should suffer ridicule for being called a Christian, then they should be proud. But here again, Christian means "follower of Christ". In the purest sense of the terms, we are all Christians. This was before Constantine got his amazingly firm grip in everything.



My opinion is that everyone has muddy water and none of us have the pure doctrine of Christ yet. Some have muddier water than others but we all got mud in our watr, I'm specifically refering to the river that flows out of the throne of God in Ezekiel. I think most christians, or MJS too if you prefer, believe that they have the correct doctrine completely, or almost completely. but I don't think so, I think we all gota ways to go yet.:thumbsup: I couldn't agree more. I agree that MJ's don't have it all. I don't think anyone does either. But I am personally most comfortable with the MJ style of worship. 2000 years later, I think it's the closest thing we have, but I realize that's my opinion.



I don't find it offensive, but what do you think about the highlighted portion of Gal. 2.14 below ( was I gentil?)

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/quote]

I think Paul is calling Peter a hypocrite? What do you think?

[ChavaK]

. So please entetrain me with some member who are messianic jews.

Be aware of the fact that the vast majority of the posters in CF
that post in the Messianic forum are not Jewish.
They are Messianic Gentiles.

[GerTzedek]

Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity. The word Christ is the English equal to the Greek word "Christos." This Greek word is equal to the Hebrew "Messhiach," or Messiah in English.

I suggest you read the words of the original Jews who believed Jesus to be the Messiah. They are found in Acts 15:29. No feasts. No festivals. No shabbats. No dietary laws that forbid pork or shellfish. Just three simple things...

If Messianic Judaism exists outside the Nicene Creed, then it cannot properly be called Christianity.

[GerTzedek]

Is it alive on this forum? I like this way of coming to the most powerful force in the universe, Our God Yaweh.
Jah way. So please enterain me with some member who are messianic jews. Jesus IS our messiah!

I may be mistaken, as I'm no longer a participant in the Messianic Forum, but to the best of my knowledge, Lulav is the only JEW there who is the member of a Messianic congregation. The rest are either messianic gentiles, or Jews who are members of Christian churches, or Christians who are interested in elements of MJ, or rabbinic Jews who like to frequent the forum. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

[ChavaK]

I may be mistaken, as I'm no longer a participant in the Messianic Forum, but to the best of my knowledge, Lulav is the only JEW there who is the member of a Messianic congregation. The rest are either messianic gentiles, or Jews who are members of Christian churches, or Christians who are interested in elements of MJ, or rabbinic Jews who like to frequent the forum. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

As far as I know, you are correct.
The only other Jew there I am aware of
is someone I would not even classify
as Messianic...but that is just my
opinion...

[Kris10leigh]

As far as I know, you are correct.
The only other Jew there I am aware of
is someone I would not even classify
as Messianic...but that is just my
opinion...
^_^ (and that's all I have to say about that)

[2ducklow]

You're awesome. ;) You don't have to change your style of posting for me. I do feel like it's a nice discussion though. I think we'll catch on to our differences.

For my own thought process, I'm going to use a different translation:
28Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"

Agrippa says these words with impatience and frustration. He does not believe what Paul is saying to him. And at this time, Christianity means little more than being a follower of Christ. A lot more baggage comes with the term today. I associate the baggage not with the word christian but with other words, such as trinity. Just as I associate the inquisition not with christianity but with catholicism.




In this verse, Peter is sharing with the people that he hopes they do not suffer as murderers or as thieves, but that if they should suffer ridicule for being called a Christian, then they should be proud. But here again, Christian means "follower of Christ". In the purest sense of the terms, we are all Christians. This was before Constantine got his amazingly firm grip in everything. and that's how I use the word, to mean a follower of Christ, not to mean a trinitarian, or a catholic, or a JW, or a Mormon, or an instigator of the inquisition, or an instigator of a pogrom,, or a etc.



:thumbsup: I couldn't agree more. I agree that MJ's don't have it all. I don't think anyone does either. But I am personally most comfortable with the MJ style of worship. 2000 years later, I think it's the closest thing we have, but I realize that's my opinion. I think you meand doctrine and not worship.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?[/quote]

I think Paul is calling Peter a hypocrite? What do you think?nah, a hypocrite is someone who knowingly does the opposite of what he teaches, I don't think Peter was aware of it and Paul was trying to make him aware of it.

[GerTzedek]

warning: topic diverging in response to comment

kris:

When did Constantine get "a firm grip" in anything besides governing the Roman Empire? He wasn't even baptised a Christian until close to death!!!!! His entrance into church history was on two occasions:
1. He lifted the ban on Christian worship (he did NOT make Christianity the state religion)
2. He realized that a united church was politically better for the empire, and asked the Christian bishops to convene a council at Nicea to work out their differnces.

Whatever Constantine had a grip on, it certainly wasn't the church.


So Kris, are you a "Jesus only" proponant? (Meaning that the only statement of belief necessary is that one believes in Jesus.)

[GerTzedek]

ducklow: If you go to either website of the two main Messianic Jewish denominations, you will see that the standard belief of MJ is that, unlike Jews, gentiles are in no way required to be observant of Mosaic law, as gentiles are not part of the covenant between G-d and Israel. The requirements for Messianic gentiles and Messianic Jews are very DIFFERENT.

However, you will find that this approach is not represented on this board. Those gentiles claiming to be Messianic are largely adherents of One Law theology, a minority view considered dangerous by both MJ denominations, which asserts that gentile believers are equally bound Mosaic covenant.

So argue with them all you want, but remember that there exists this diversity of opinion in the Messianic world.

[simchat_torah]

He wasn't even baptised a Christian until close to death!!!!! And throughout his reign, even after his "conversion experience" he still continued to collect state taxes for the Mithraic cult.

More on this later if anyone's interested.

[Kris10leigh]

I think you meand doctrine and not worship.

I actually think I mean "way of thinking". I don't exactly mean doctrine and I've never actually worshipped with an MJ group.



kris:


When did Constantine get "a firm grip" in anything besides governing the Roman Empire? He wasn't even baptised a Christian until close to death!!!!! His entrance into church history was on two occasions:
1. He lifted the ban on Christian worship (he did NOT make Christianity the state religion)
2. He realized that a united church was politically better for the empire, and asked the Christian bishops to convene a council at Nicea to work out their differnces.

Whatever Constantine had a grip on, it certainly wasn't the church.

By "firm grip" I mean Christianity as it became largely because of Constantine. As you said, he convened the council at Nicea the result of which was the doctrine of trinity. He merged two opposing sides of his kingdom, Pagans and Christians.


So Kris, are you a "Jesus only" proponant? (Meaning that the only statement of belief necessary is that one believes in Jesus.)
I suppose so, as a bare essential, yes. But I would re-word it to say one must "believe Yeshua is the promised Messiah". To say I "believe in Yeshua" sounds too much like "I believe in Santa". ;)

ducklow: If you go to either website of the two main Messianic Jewish denominations, you will see that the standard belief of MJ is that, unlike Jews, gentiles are in no way required to be observant of Mosaic law, as gentiles are not part of the covenant between G-d and Israel. The requirements for Messianic gentiles and Messianic Jews are very DIFFERENT.

However, you will find that this approach is not represented on this board. Those gentiles claiming to be Messianic are largely adherents of One Law theology, a minority view considered dangerous by both MJ denominations, which asserts that gentile believers are equally bound Mosaic covenant.

So argue with them all you want, but remember that there exists this diversity of opinion in the Messianic world.
Just so as not to misrepresent myself or MJ's in general, it's well known on the MJ board HERE that I am a poor representation of the MJ movement. I'm very new to it and my ideas have little to do with being a Messianic believer. I have simply found that my ideas usually align with theirs, but I am in no way a speaker for the group. ;) My thoughts are truly my own.

[Talmidah]

I may be mistaken, as I'm no longer a participant in the Messianic Forum, but to the best of my knowledge, Lulav is the only JEW there who is the member of a Messianic congregation. The rest are either messianic gentiles, or Jews who are members of Christian churches, or Christians who are interested in elements of MJ, or rabbinic Jews who like to frequent the forum. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

I'd say that pretty much sums it up.

[GerTzedek]

By "firm grip" I mean Christianity as it became largely because of Constantine. As you said, he convened the council at Nicea the result of which was the doctrine of trinity. He merged two opposing sides of his kingdom, Pagans and Christians.


I cannot word this any other way except to say that your thinking is illogical. We begin with an accepted verifiable fact -- that Contantine asked the Bishops to convene the council at Nicea. Then you jump to two completely unwarranted conclusions, one of which is way off the scales.

Constantine contributed nothing theological to the Council of Nicea. NOTHING. He wasn't a bishop and held no authority there. Heck, he wasn't even a Christian! Therefore his role in the formation of the Nicene Creed is absolutely bottom basement at best, if not completely lacking, depending on whether one considers his getting the bishops together as a contribution to the creed itself or not. There is no possible way the mere convening of a council, at which everyone present EXCEPT HIM actually formed the creed, is an example of "getting a firm grip on Christianity."

Next, to leap from the council of Nicea to "merging two opposing sides of his kingdom, Pagans and Christians" is just... Bizarre. I'm sorry. It had to be said. It's no different than the school secretary issuing the call for an IEP meeting for a student, having NOTHING to do with the results of the meeting, and then saying she combined Special Education with Voodoo.

Now, if that is how irrational you are about this, and obviously you are, nothing I can say or show you is going to impact your, how can I say this delicately? I think the pscyhological term is "overvalued idea." Further discussion is senseless. Therefore the conversation is over.

Especially given that it is off topic anyhow.

[Kris10leigh]

Now, if that is how irrational you are about this, and obviously you are, nothing I can say or show you is going to impact your, how can I say this delicately? I think the pscyhological term is "overvalued idea." Further discussion is senseless. Therefore the conversation is over.

Especially given that it is off topic anyhow.
No, not quite over until you've allowed for a rebuttle from the other side.

Let's see, Constantine and Christianity:

Constantine changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, the day of worship for the sun-god, Apollo.

Constantine's kingdom was torn between Aruis doctrine and Athanasius doctrine. He needed to put the dispute to rest as it was a threat to his kingdom. Research suggests that Constantine threated the council to vote the way he wanted them to.

And the argument that Constantine wasn't Baptised until his deathbed seems to prove my point. What was his motivation for all that he did? A personal relationship with God and with Yeshua? It hardly seems like it since he was not Baptised until his deathbed.

And why do debates always have to turn into "you're stupid and I'm right"?

[Steve Petersen]

Be aware of the fact that the vast majority of the posters in CF
that post in the Messianic forum are not Jewish.
They are Messianic Gentiles.


Also be a aware that most 'Jews' who post in CF were not born and/or raised Jewish but converted to Judaism from some form of Christianity.

[GerTzedek]

Also be a aware that most 'Jews' who post in CF were not born and/or raised Jewish but converted to Judaism from some form of Christianity.

You place the word "Jews" in quotes in your sentence, as if a halakhic convert to Judaism is not a true Jew, when in fact a halakhic convert is 100% a Jew. You place the word "Jews" in quotes in your sentence as if a Baal Tshuva not raised Jewish is somehow not a true Jew. HOW DARE YOU?

I suggest you make your point, but remove the quotes.

[ChavaK]

Also be a aware that most 'Jews' who post in CF were not born and/or raised Jewish but converted to Judaism from some form of Christianity.

By Jewish law they are as Jewish as any born Jew.
Your point is irrelevant.

[GerTzedek]

Kris: There is evidence he threatened those who were obstacles to resolution. There is absolutely no evidence that he influenced the formation of doctrine.

Also: The church had been saying Mass on Sunday (the Lord's day) rather than Saturday for centuries.

And yes, it comes down to you are uneducated and have been tricked by bigots. The overwhelming majority of the time in these forums, people have genuine disagreements of opinions, but every once in a while, something like this happens, where an ignorant person is just the victim of propaganda, and I'm not going to pretend that's not what's going on here.

[ShirChadash]

I cannot word this any other way except to say that your thinking is illogical. We begin with an accepted verifiable fact -- that Contantine asked the Bishops to convene the council at Nicea. Then you jump to two completely unwarranted conclusions, one of which is way off the scales.

Constantine contributed nothing theological to the Council of Nicea. NOTHING. He wasn't a bishop and held no authority there. Heck, he wasn't even a Christian! Therefore his role in the formation of the Nicene Creed is absolutely bottom basement at best, if not completely lacking, depending on whether one considers his getting the bishops together as a contribution to the creed itself or not. There is no possible way the mere convening of a council, at which everyone present EXCEPT HIM actually formed the creed, is an example of "getting a firm grip on Christianity."

Next, to leap from the council of Nicea to "merging two opposing sides of his kingdom, Pagans and Christians" is just... Bizarre. I'm sorry. It had to be said. It's no different than the school secretary issuing the call for an IEP meeting for a student, having NOTHING to do with the results of the meeting, and then saying she combined Special Education with Voodoo.

Now, if that is how irrational you are about this, and obviously you are, nothing I can say or show you is going to impact your, how can I say this delicately? I think the pscyhological term is "overvalued idea." Further discussion is senseless. Therefore the conversation is over.

Especially given that it is off topic anyhow.

wow.

:( Just wow. What's with all the personal attacks, GTz?

[Steve Petersen]

You place the word "Jews" in quotes in your sentence, as if a halakhic convert to Judaism is not a true Jew, when in fact a halakhic convert is 100% a Jew. You place the word "Jews" in quotes in your sentence as if a Baal Tshuva not raised Jewish is somehow not a true Jew. HOW DARE YOU?

I suggest you make your point, but remove the quotes.

My, you are volatile!

Poster have a right to know that most 'Jewish' posters on this forum were not born and raised in the faith. Converting to another faith is a huge step and involves renunciation of previous religious dogma. There are few religions that allow converts to have second thoughts about conversion. For psychological reasons, converts have historically been the most zealous for their new faith. I have seen this phenomenon here when people have transitioned between tradtional Christianity to Messianic, and also when transitioning between Messianic and Jewish convert.

If it is OK for Chavak to marginalize Messianics on the basis of ethinicity, then don't be suprised when the same is applied to converts to Judaism.

[ChavaK]

My, you are volatile!

It is no different than Chavak's pointing out that most Messianics here are Gentile.


It's quite different.

Someone who has converted to Judaism is a Jewish as
anyone born Jewish.

Someone who has converted to Judaism is accepted by
the Jewish community as Jewish and has a legitimate
right to call themselves Jewish.

This is opposed to someone either blatantly calling themselves
or by silence implying they are Jewish.
Implying that they are practicing Judaism when in reality they
are not.

Answering questions on Judaism, about being Jewish, when
they are not qualified. Especially when the question is either
directed towards a Jew or towards A Messianic Jew.

Big difference.

[Steve Petersen]

It's quite different.

Someone who has converted to Judaism is a Jewish as
anyone born Jewish.

Someone who has converted to Judaism is accepted by
the Jewish community as Jewish and has a legitimate
right to call themselves Jewish.

This has not always been the case. From the Jewish Encyclopedia article, Proselyte:

That many of the earlier rabbis were opposed to proselytes is plain from observations imputed to them. R. Eliezer is credited with the opinion that the nature of proselytes is corrupt, and that hence they are apt to become backsliders (Mek., Mishpaṭim, 18; B. Ḳ. 59b; Gerim iv.). Jose ben Judah insists that any candidate should be rejected unless he binds himself to observe not only every tittle of the Torah but all the precepts of the scribes, even to the least of them (Tosef., Dem. ii. 5; Sifra 91a, to Lev. xix. 34).
Sad experience or personal fanaticism underlies the oft-cited statement—in reality a play upon Isa. xiv. 1—that proselytes are as burdensome to Israel as leprosy (Yeb. 47b, 109b; Ḳid. 70b; 'Ab. Zarah 3b; Ket. 11a; Niddah 13b); or the dictum that proselytes will not be received during the days of the Messiah ("Yad," Issure Biah, xiii.-xiv.; ib. 'Abadim, ix.; Yoreh De'ah, 268). While evil upon evil is predicted for the "meḳabbele gerim" (propagandists; Yeb. 109b), the proselytes themselves, notwithstanding their new birth, are said to be exposed to intense suffering, which is variously explained as due to their ignorance of the Law (Yeb. 48b), or to the presence of an impure motive in their conversion (e.g., fear instead of love), or to previous misconduct.[/quote]

Answering questions on Judaism, about being Jewish, when they are not qualified. Especially when the question is either directed towards a Jew or towards A Messianic Jew.

Big difference.

So, in your mind, Messianic Gentiles, by virtue of not having converted, are ignorant of Judaism. Ethnicity and religious status does not make one a scholar.

[ChavaK]

That many of the earlier rabbis were opposed to proselytes is plain from observations imputed to them. R. Eliezer is credited with the opinion that the nature of proselytes is corrupt, and that hence they are apt to become backsliders (Mek., Mishpaṭim, 18; B. Ḳ. 59b; Gerim iv.). Jose ben Judah insists that any candidate should be rejected unless he binds himself to observe not only every tittle of the Torah but all the precepts of the scribes, even to the least of them (Tosef., Dem. ii. 5; Sifra 91a, to Lev. xix. 34).
Sad experience or personal fanaticism underlies the oft-cited statement—in reality a play upon Isa. xiv. 1—that proselytes are as burdensome to Israel as leprosy (Yeb. 47b, 109b; Ḳid. 70b; 'Ab. Zarah 3b; Ket. 11a; Niddah 13b); or the dictum that proselytes will not be received during the days of the Messiah ("Yad," Issure Biah, xiii.-xiv.; ib. 'Abadim, ix.; Yoreh De'ah, 268). While evil upon evil is predicted for the "meḳabbele gerim" (propagandists; Yeb. 109b), the proselytes themselves, notwithstanding their new birth, are said to be exposed to intense suffering, which is variously explained as due to their ignorance of the Law (Yeb. 48b), or to the presence of an impure motive in their conversion (e.g., fear instead of love), or to previous misconduct.

These are minority opinions and not considered valid.
Many of our scholars have been converts, or descendents
of converts.

Please do not direct the discussion away from the issue at
hand.


So, in your mind, Messianic Gentiles, by virtue of not having converted, are ignorant of Judaism. Yep, because they view Judaism through Christian teachings.

[SingingElk]

Although I identify myself as a messianic, eat only clean foods and observe the Torah, I would not fit under this forum, since I also accept the Nicene creed.

So I think it is time for me to say good by to this forum and go back to the Fundamentalist and Conservative forums. I have more in common with them than with Unorthodox Theology.

[GerTzedek]

So, in your mind, Messianic Gentiles, by virtue of not having converted, are ignorant of Judaism.
Yep, because they view Judaism through Christian teachings.
In other words, they are ignorant of Judaism not because they are gentile, but because they are Messianic.

[ChavaK]

Although I identify myself as a messianic, eat only clean foods and observe the Torah, I would not fit under this forum, since I also accept the Nicene creed.

So I think it is time for me to say good by to this forum and go back to the Fundamentalist and Conservative forums. I have more in common with them than with Unorthodox Theology.

My understanding is that anyone- trinitarian or not-can post here.....

[ChavaK]

In other words, they are ignorant of Judaism not because they are gentile, but because they are Messianic.


Exactly....there is no way one can be well versed in Judaism
when one uses Christian Scripture and Christian beliefs to
study and interpret Judaism.

[Steve Petersen]

[/i]Yep, because they view Judaism through Christian teachings.

Some do. Some try to read the NT through the lens of Second Temple Judaism. There is ample attestation in Jewish literature (midrashic literature, Dead Sea Scroll, Philo etc) of much of the NT speculation about messiah. I have posted some of it on another thread. You seem to have found a way to ignore even orthodox Jewish scholars like Flusser, Pines et al on this topic.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exactly....there is no way one can be well versed in Judaism
when one uses Christian Scripture and Christian beliefs to
study and interpret Judaism.Shalom ChavaK! Ya know, you may be on to something there :)

Exodus 15:1 Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YHWH, and they are saying to say of: "I shall sing to YHWH that to be triumphant He is triumphant, horse and his rider he heaved in Sea. [Revelation 15:3]

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, "Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations" [Exodus 15:1]

[anisavta]

Though I'm not of the Messianic Jewish faith the scripture you quoted in Zechariah will be fulfilled and is being fulfilled with Spiritual Israel eluded to in Rev.7:4-8. The Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, who was sent by God. As God had always said what would happen if the nation turned against him, he was true to his word. So after Pentecost 33CE when Holy Spirit was poured out, God turned His attention to people of the nations: people who were not by birth Jews. When God turns his attention to something it is for a reason and purpose. From Pentecost 33CE, spiritual Israel started to be formed. From these comes the fulfillment of Zech.8:22 for what good things can be said about fleshly Israel today? In whom do they put their trust? Men, governments and the UN. Is God with political Israel?

So Spiritual Israel is the vehicle that God uses today to draw people to Him, just as Israel used to do in antiquity. But in which faith is Spiritual Israel found? That is something everyone has to determine in their hearts for themselves.
So the new Jerusalem will not be a real place? All the scripture in Isaiah where G~d over and over again promises to bring His people back in the Land and to Himself are not true? 1948 did not really happen and Israel is not a state with Jews returning to their Land every day?
And just as G~d states in Joshua when Joshua asks the heavenly messanger:
Jos 5:13 One day, Joshua was near Jericho when he saw a man standing some distance in front of him. The man was holding a sword, so Joshua walked up to him and asked, "Are you on our side or on our enemies' side?" Jos 5:14 "Neither," he answered. "I am here because I am the commander of the LORD's army." Joshua fell to his knees and bowed down to the ground. "I am your servant," he said. "Tell me what to do."
You have never been to Israel and to the Western Wall have you? You have never stood between two Jewish people crying out - weeping in fact as they call out to Hashem.

[GerTzedek]

[quote=ChavaK;47190103][/i]
Many of our scholars have been converts, or descendents
of converts.
quote]


Rabbi Meir Ba'al Ha-Nes, descendent of the convert Ceasar Nero
Onkelos, authored part of the Talmud, nephew of the convert Ceasar Titus
Rabbi Akiva, Talmudic sage, son of converts
King David.,grandson of Ruth

[ShirChadash]

My, you are volatile!

Poster have a right to know that most 'Jewish' posters on this forum were not born and raised in the faith. Converting to another faith is a huge step and involves renunciation of previous religious dogma. There are few religions that allow converts to have second thoughts about conversion. For psychological reasons, converts have historically been the most zealous for their new faith. I have seen this phenomenon here when people have transitioned between tradtional Christianity to Messianic, and also when transitioning between Messianic and Jewish convert.

If it is OK for Chavak to marginalize Messianics on the basis of ethinicity, then don't be suprised when the same is applied to converts to Judaism.

LOL -- you can apply that all you like, I suppose. JEWS know that converts are "real Jews" whether you want to consider converts such or not has absolutely no relevance on the fact.

[ChavaK]

Shalom ChavaK! Ya know, you may be on to something there


Well, I guess it's about time, LOL.

[ShirChadash]

*chuckle* lol Chava :D

[GerTzedek]

Steve: you don't get it. A Jew who is raised Christian is still a Jew. They don't have a different ethnicity. A gentile who converts has their ethnicity changed to that of Jew. You are trying to marginalize and ethnicity which doesn't exist. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

[Steve Petersen]

A Jew who is raised Christian is still a Jew. They don't have a different ethnicity. A gentile who converts has their ethnicity changed to that of Jew. You are trying to marginalize and ethnicity which doesn't exist. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

But a Jew who converts to Christianity is meshumed and considered dead to their families (in Ortho circles anyway.)

This is a real corker. Genetically a person may be born Jewish. Genetically, a Gentile could be born a Dane. But when he converts he becomes a Jew genetically? Not. So is Jewish a genetic marker or a religious one? I am sure you will say 'both.' How then do the religious authorities in Israel prohibit people who are genetically Jewish, but converted to Christianity from coming to Israel under the Laws of Return? 'They are not Jewish' we are told.

You guys want to have your cake and eat it too!

[anisavta]

Unless maybe someone comes in during the night and drains our blood and puts gentlie blood back in it's place... ;)
There is a DNA test that can be done on males to detect the Cohen blood line ie the priestly blood line. Now if becoming a Christian makes you not a Jew anymore those in the Cohen bloodline are not Cohen but Christians? That is reallly confusing.:confused:

[anisavta]

But a Jew who converts to Christianity is meshumed and considered dead to their families (in Ortho circles anyway.)

This is a real corker. Genetically a person may be born Jewish. Genetically, a Gentile could be born a Dane. But when he converts he becomes a Jew genetically? Not. So is Jewish a genetic marker or a religious one? I am sure you will say 'both.' How then do the religious authorities in Israel prohibit people who are genetically Jewish, but converted to Christianity from coming to Israel under the Laws of Return? 'They are not Jewish' we are told.

You guys want to have your cake and eat it too!
Yes SP sometimes families of Believing Jews do sit sheva for them. I have several friends who had that happen. However one of my dear friend's parents have since decided she is no longer dead to them. They still think she is mishuggah but not dead.
As far as Messianics and making alyiah as we speak there are lawyers working on changing that. Baruch HaShem!

[ChavaK]

Y
As far as Messianics and making alyiah as we speak there are lawyers working on changing that.
May HaShem see to it that they fail.

[ChavaK]

There is a DNA test that can be done on males to detect the Cohen blood line ie the priestly blood line. Now if becoming a Christian makes you not a Jew anymore those in the Cohen bloodline are not Cohen but Christians? That is reallly confusing.:confused:

Having a kohane genetic marker does not make one a kohane,
any more than not having it disqualifies one as a kohane.

If someone who is halachaly Jewish converts to Christianity, they
are still a Jew. But one who is now an apostate and involved in
avoda zara.

[ChavaK]

But a Jew who converts to Christianity is meshumed and considered dead to their families (in Ortho circles anyway.)

Correct.

This is a real corker. Genetically a person may be born Jewish. Genetically, a Gentile could be born a Dane. But when he converts he becomes a Jew genetically? Not. Being Jewish or not has nothing to do with genetics; it has to
do with Neshama. You will not agree with this, but when a person
converts they receive a Jewish soul. Others say that the person
had a Jewish soul to begin with , but by error it was placed into
a non-Jewish body.

So is Jewish a genetic marker or a religious one?
Again, it is not a matter of genetics.

How then do the religious authorities in Israel prohibit people who are genetically Jewish, but converted to Christianity from coming to Israel under the Laws of Return? 'They are not Jewish' we are told. Because this is the secular Israeli courts at work. They have decreed
these people no longer Jews. Of course, halachaly that is not true
Once a Jew, always a Jew. Even if an apostate.
Personally, I am pleased the secular courts have ruled this way,
even if I disagree with their reasoning.

You guys want to have your cake and eat it too!Only if it's kosher.

[Steve Petersen]

Having a kohane genetic marker does not make one a kohane,
any more than not having it disqualifies one as a kohane.

If someone who is halachaly Jewish converts to Christianity, they
are still a Jew. But one who is now an apostate and involved in
avoda zara.


Idol worship.

But, an atheist Jew is still allowed to make aliyah under the Laws of Return. I guess it is OK to deny God's existence though. Go figure.

I wonder about Jews coming from Asian countries and are Buddhist or Hindu?

[Kris10leigh]

Correct.
Others say that the person
had a Jewish soul to begin with , but by error it was placed into
a non-Jewish body.

I think that is beautiful. :)

[ChavaK]

Idol worship.

But, an atheist Jew is still allowed to make aliyah under the Laws of Return. I guess it is OK to deny God's existence though. Go figure.

Yep. An atheist Jew has not crossed the bound into avoda zara, even
if they are not living a Torah life.

I wonder about Jews coming from Asian countries and are Buddhist or Hindu?
Don't know, but I would assume the same should apply- the courts
would no longer consider them Jewish. But I can't imagine why either
would want to make aliyah, anyway....
But again, we are dealing with secular, Israeli courts, not religious
courts. So who knows what they would do in this case....

[ShirChadash]

Only if it's kosher.
:clap:

[anisavta]

The secular courts are ruled by the religious few and the money they represent.
It is a sad thing that man chooses who is Jewish because of past sins of some (and yes they were horrendous sins). And yet what does G~d say about who is Jewish and who is not? The name itself Jew comes from Y'hudi - G~d praiser.
Interesting - G~d called a people from a pagan nation to become His own treasure set apart for Him. But if you are Hindu or Buddhist who does not even acknowledge HaShem - a pagan nation as it were - you are considered Jewish.
And so because I am a G~d praiser - Jew who wants to live in the Land that was promised to me. But because I am not worshipping an idol such as Buddha or the many gods of the Eastern religions but instead the Messiah who is indeed coming to rescue His People once and for all, I can't claim my own inheritance. Only man can come up with that!

[ChavaK]

The secular courts are ruled by the religious few and the money they represent.
No, they are ruled by secular, leftist Jews....to the shame of Israel.

It is a sad thing that man chooses who is Jewish because of past sins of some (and yes they were horrendous sins). And yet what does G~d say about who is Jewish and who is not? The name itself Jew comes from Y'hudi - G~d praiser.
Hmmm....so are you halachaly Jewish (from a mother who is halachaly
Jewish)? I have never never heard a Jew who is Messianic argue against
the traditional definition of who is a Jew. I have never heard one say it
is a man made definition. I have never heard one define who is a Jew
based on belief.

And so because I am a G~d praiser - a Jew
So you are halachaly jewish?

But because I am not worshipping an idol such as Buddha or the many gods of the Eastern religions
No, you are worshiping an idol of a different sort.

[Steve Petersen]

No, they are ruled by secular, leftist Jews....to the shame of Israel.

Hmmm....so are you halachaly Jewish (from a mother who is halachaly
Jewish)? I have never never heard a Jew who is Messianic argue against
the traditional definition of who is a Jew. I have never heard one say it
is a man made definition. I have never heard one define who is a Jew
based on belief.

So you are halachaly jewish?

No, you are worshiping an idol of a different sort.

Why dont' you just lay it on the table Chavak instead of being so cryptic.

Anyone who believes that Jesus is divine is worshipping an idol according to the halakah of Orthodox Judaism.

[Qalevra]

Steve,

I was born Jewish and never abandoned it for Christianity, Buddhism, atheism, etc. I not only consider converted Jews here to be no different from other Jews, but they have my utmost respect. I was born into it. They made the CHOICE.


Anyone who believes that Jesus is divine is worshipping an idol


That is the Jewish understanding not only in Orthodox Judaism, but in Reform, Conservative/Masorti, Reconstructionist, Karaite Judaism, and other forms of normative Judaism as well.

[GerTzedek]

But a Jew who converts to Christianity is meshumed and considered dead to their families (in Ortho circles anyway.)

This is a real corker. Genetically a person may be born Jewish. Genetically, a Gentile could be born a Dane. But when he converts he becomes a Jew genetically? Not. So is Jewish a genetic marker or a religious one? I am sure you will say 'both.' How then do the religious authorities in Israel prohibit people who are genetically Jewish, but converted to Christianity from coming to Israel under the Laws of Return? 'They are not Jewish' we are told.

You guys want to have your cake and eat it too!
Steve, being a Jew is not a DNA issue. It is not a "race" issue. It is a PEOPLE. And yes, a gentile may be adopted into the People. Someone who was Chinese may become a Jew.

When a Jew becomes a Christian, they are still a Jew, but they are an apostate. They have joined another community, and voluntarily left the People of Israel to do so. They have gone to live and eat with the goyim and worship the god of the goyim and assimilat the identity of the goyim.

[GerTzedek]

The secular courts are ruled by the religious few and the money they represent.
Are you serious? Is this a joke????

The secular courts in Israel are so incredibly secular, that the reliigous won't use them. An alternative civil justice system based on Jewish law runs in Israel using rabbinical courts. If you have, for example, a monetary issue that needs resolving, you can choose to take it EITHER to the secular courts OR to the rabbinical courts.

[GerTzedek]

Others say that the person
had a Jewish soul to begin with , but by error it was placed into
a non-Jewish body.
There are no mistakes. Nothing happens that HaShem does not allow for His purposes. We simply don't know the reasons why. Perhaps there was something of purpose to be done that could only be done this way. Perhaps there is something of value in the return. Only G-d knows.

[Talmidah]

The secular courts are ruled by the religious few and the money they represent. What? Where did you get the idea that the Israeli secular courts are ruled by the religious few?

It is a sad thing that man chooses who is Jewish because of past sins of some (and yes they were horrendous sins). And yet what does G~d say about who is Jewish and who is not? The name itself Jew comes from Y'hudi - G~d praiser.
Interesting - G~d called a people from a pagan nation to become His own treasure set apart for Him. But if you are Hindu or Buddhist who does not even acknowledge HaShem - a pagan nation as it were - you are considered Jewish.
And so because I am a G~d praiser - Jew who wants to live in the Land that was promised to me. But because I am not worshipping an idol such as Buddha or the many gods of the Eastern religions but instead the Messiah who is indeed coming to rescue His People once and for all, I can't claim my own inheritance. Only man can come up with that! So are you really saying that anyone who praises God, who is in your words "a G~d praiser" is Jewish? :confused:

[GerTzedek]

It is not true that once a Messianic always a Messianic. I know quite a few Messianics that have returned to Orthodoxy. The old way of cutting Jews off, sitting shiva, etc., only caused anger and solidified the rift. What I see happening today is a lot of outreach programs, Jews trying to get Jews to come back home.

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by ChavaK http://img.christianforums.com/style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47196204#post47196204)
Others say that the person had a Jewish soul to begin with , but by error it was placed into a non-Jewish body.
:o I was born into a Roman Catholic family but I always felt my body had a non-Catholic soul in it and later found out how true that was :D

[anisavta]

No, they are ruled by secular, leftist Jews....to the shame of Israel.

Hmmm....so are you halachaly Jewish (from a mother who is glacially
Jewish)? I have never never heard a Jew who is Messianic argue against
the traditional definition of who is a Jew. I have never heard one say it
is a man made definition. I have never heard one define who is a Jew
based on belief.

So you are halachaly jewish?

No, you are worshiping an idol of a different sort.
Yes I am as you put it halachaly jewish. Although I am so glad you are not the one who gives me the red or green light.
So now you have heard. Get around more.
So a proselyte who becomes a Jew based on belief is not really a Jew? And if you are going to use the Jewish soul Jewish body thing - it depends on which sage you follow.
Prove to me that Yeshua is not Messiah. Use the Tanakh for your argument not just your opinion. :)

[Torah613]

Yes I am as you put it halachaly jewish. Although I am so glad you are not the one who gives me the red or green light.
So now you have heard. Get around more.
So a proselyte who becomes a Jew based on belief is not really a Jew? And if you are going to use the Jewish soul Jewish body thing - it depends on which sage you follow.
Prove to me that Yeshua is not Messiah. Use the Tanakh for your argument not just your opinion. :)

A Ger Tzeddek is only a Jew after having completed the requirements of Halacha. Belief is important, but it will not get him/her to the day of their geyrus.

Yochanan

[GerTzedek]

anisavta:

Do I believe I have a Jewish soul? Yes. It is the only explanation that makes any sense out of what I'm going through. After all, there really is no rational reason for me to go through Jewish conversion. So what is it that so drives me to it?

But that doesn't make me a Jew. My beliefs don't make me a Jew. My practices don't make me a Jew. As of right now, this exact moment, I am gentile. I will not be a Jew until the bet din says I am and I come out of the Mikveh.

But yes, at that moment, I will change from a gentile to a Jew. Completely.

Even YOUR OWN UMJC agrees that there is no such thing as a gentile becoming a Jew by "belief alone." That's why they have attempted to duplicate the halakhic process of the bet din.

[anisavta]

ChavaK. Please don't try to out Jew those of us who are Jewish Believers with all the "Jewish" words. There are some Messianic Gentiles reading this thread who are not familiar with them and it is confusing. You are doing what really irritates me - Christians using "Christianese" to show how "spiritual" they are.
Gotta go meet the DS and DIL for dinner. Catch everyone after I "nosh".:wave:

[GerTzedek]

anisavta:
Hebrew (and to a lesser extent, Yiddish and Ladino) is the language of Judaism. I don't think Chava is trying to "out-Jew" anyone. This is simply the way Jews in Orthodox communities speak. Do not take it personally.

What I do when I see a word or phrase I don't know or can't remember is I google it. That's how I learn.

I'm trying to figure out what words you are objecting to. All the messianic gentiles are quite familiar with "halakhah" and "mikveh" and "bet din." I think perhaps the only word used that might have been new to them has been "giur" which mean "conversion process." All they would need to do is go to google and enter "giur hebrew" and click return. what comes up is :

Conversion to Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek)
A convert to Judaism is referred to as a ger tzedek (Hebrew: "righteous proselyte" or .... the beth din issues a Shtar Giur ("Certificate of Conversion"), ...


You see, anasavta, it only takes a minimal amount of resoursefulness.

[Torah613]

Anisavta,

first of all, can I assume by your username that you are a bubbe (grandmother)?

secondly, many of hte messianic gentiles you refer to peper their speech much more so than us rabbinic Jews with "Jewaneese." It just happens.

As Jews, particularly when we are talking to Jews as so many things don't translate well, we do pepper our speech with hebrew/yiddish/bukhari/landino/whatever words (hebrew as universal, the various other ethnic languages depending on our particular part of Galus). As an example, the word Mitzvah is generally translated as either "good deed" or "commandment" but neither of these english words really convey the meaning of the original word. Thus we continue to say "because its a mitzvah" or "do more mitzvoth." In short, neither Jewish religion or Jewish culture can be completely and accurately described in English.

Yochanan

[Torah613]

Just as Navajo culture can't be described completely and accurately in french.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Don't take me wrong I know exactly what you are talking about. I live in a Jewish neighborhood, go the the Federation functions, attend a synagogue and when we are all together the Hebrew and Yiddish fly. Remember I am a Jew and I go to Israel for a month every year so I am very familiar with the vernacular, and the customs. My concern is that there are those who do not know what we are talking about and it would be good to at least give some definition after the word. I get the impression that some here feel that since I am Messianic I need to be educated in the fine art of Judaism. Reminds me of someone who is blind and has everyone shouting at them because for some reason if you are blind you must be deaf too.
Messianic Jews are just as versed in Judaism as an Orthodox. We have in our shul those who were raised from Orthodox to Reform to cultural and nothing more.
Messianic Jews are not Christians who have decided to do Jewishie things. Whether you agree or not and if there are two Jews together you will get three opinions and at least one argument we are Jews with Jewish souls and hearts and our declaration is the Sh'ma. We study the Torah, Tanakh, the Mishnah and think that the sages had great wisdom and advice. We are Torah observant. But we also believe that Yeshua- not Jesus but Yeshua(salvation) who was prophesied over and over in the Tanakh is indeed Messiah.
And I know many of you are ready to rend your clothes over this but so be it.

[Talmidah]

Funny how most of us have been here 3 or 4 years and seem to get along fine with each other. Then a person comes along and, 6 days after joining, starts telling us how we should or shouldn't speak?

[Steve Petersen]

Funny how most of us have been 3 or 4 years and seem to get along fine. Then a person comes along and, 6 days after joining, starts telling us how we should or shouldn't speak?


Good thing you're an adult or I'd be worried. :thumbsup:

[anisavta]

Mah???:confused:
Thought this was a thread about Messianic Judaism and the discussions that insue.

[kivi]

But a Jew who converts to Christianity is meshumed and considered dead to their families (in Ortho circles anyway.)

kivi says: Some Jewish familes see a Jew's betrayal of their oath to be a serious matter. While no Jew can convert out of Judaism, they can be traitors and, as such, dangerous to the family and the community. By sitting shivah, the family mourns/grieves for the lose of the family member.

This is a real corker. Genetically a person may be born Jewish.

kivi says: Genetics and nationality are not the same thing. A Jew is a Jew because of nationality, the nationality of B'nai Israel. That nationality may be gotten by either being born to a Jewish mother [birth] or being converted/naturalized according to Torah Law [law]. Simular is US citizenship. One is a US citizen because one of their parents are US citizens [birth], being born on US soil [location] or being naturalized according to US law [law]. NO genetcs is required for either B'ai Israel or US citizenship. There are Jews of every race in the world from China to India to Ethiopia to the US. Race and genetics have nothing to do with it.

Gentile could be born a Dane. But when he converts he becomes a Jew genetically? Not. So is Jewish a genetic marker or a religious one? I am sure you will say 'both.'

kivi says: No. There is no genetic marker for being a Jew. The marker is a Jewish neshumah/soul, something that is much more fundamental than biological DNA. All 'converts' to Judaism are considered to be 'lost' neshumahs who have found their way back home. In effect, the conversion process just confirms to the general Jewish public what the neshumahs already know, that the neshuamh of the person converting was Jewish from the beginning. This makes sense if it is realized that in Torah Judaism, all neshumahs were present at Matan Torah [the 'Giving of the Torah' which we will celebrate in a week] and all took the oath of alliagence at that time. Therefore, since all of the Jewish neshumah were at Matan Torah and took the pledge and any pledge taken by G-d is forever, no converion out of Judaism is allowed/accepted/kosher/recognized by Judasm.

How then do the religious authorities in Israel prohibit people who are genetically Jewish, but converted to Christianity from coming to Israel under the Laws of Return?

kivi says: Thereligious authorities wouldn't let them in, not because they are not Jewish. They wouldn't let them because they are Jewish traitors and would subvert the Torah requirements of a Torah True society. However, the Law of Return is a matter for the civil Israeli government which is not Torah True. The Law of Return has no Torah obligation or requirement or approval.

'They are not Jewish' we are told.

You guys want to have your cake and eat it too!

kivi says: Well, as I have explained, you understanding is mistaken.

[kivi]

Idol worship.

But, an atheist Jew is still allowed to make aliyah under the Laws of Return. I guess it is OK to deny God's existence though. Go figure.

I wonder about Jews coming from Asian countries and are Buddhist or Hindu?

kivi says: The Law of Return is not Torah Law. It is the civil law of a secular government called the State of Israel. As such, it has nothing to do with a person's Jewish status under Halachah. Israeli citizenship is not a function of religious affliation since almost a million Israeli citizens are Muslims. The Law of Return is intrinsically un-workable. And leads to impossible results that seriously weaken B'nai Israel.

[kivi]

Why dont' you just lay it on the table Chavak instead of being so cryptic.

Anyone who believes that Jesus is divine is worshipping an idol according to the halakah of Orthodox Judaism.

kivi says: Unfortunately, you are mistaken, Steve. Any Jew who worships Jesus Christ as a god is involved in idol woship because of that Jew's original oath at Matan Torah to only obey G-d and His Torah and not to follow foreign gods. That is a very high standard that only Jews are required to keep because we are the Pristhood to All of Mankind. Gentiles, because they have other jobs than being the Priesthood to All of Mankind, are not required to meet that standard and Christianity and Islam are accepted under Torah Law for the definition of 'righteous of the Nations' as in "All of B'nai Israel and the righteous of the Nations have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]."
Please to not confuse a very clear concept. Jews can not worship Jesus Christ because of our original oath at Matan Torah, gentiles can because they are not under that oath.

[ChavaK]

Why dont' you just lay it on the table Chavak instead of being so cryptic.

Anyone who believes that Jesus is divine is worshipping an idol according to the halakah of Orthodox Judaism.


As Kivi pointed out, this only applies to Jews.
Christians may worship anyone in any manner that they please.
They are not held to halachic standards.

I would never accuse a Christian of being an idol worshiper.
But a Jew who worships Jesus as G-d, that is a different matter.

Hope that clarifies matters....

[ChavaK]

ChavaK. Please don't try to out Jew those of us who are Jewish Believers with all the "Jewish" words. There are some Messianic Gentiles reading this thread who are not familiar with them and it is confusing. You are doing what really irritates me - Christians using "Christianese" to show how "spiritual" they are.
Gotta go meet the DS and DIL for dinner. Catch everyone after I "nosh".:wave:

From my experience, Messianic Gentiles are perfectly capable of
understanding "Jewish" words....they generally pick up the lingo
pretty quickly. If you are referring to aliyah and avoda zara,
Messianic Gentiles are very familiar with those words...

Anyone who has questions about a word or phrase, is of course,
always welcome to request a definiton.

If I am going to be discussing Judaism, of course I am going to be
using "Jewish Words".... it has nothing to do with "out Jewing someone"....sheesh....
It's how I would normally talk to discuss issues.

Enjoy your dinner!

[ChavaK]

Yes I am as you put it halachaly jewish. Although I am so glad you are not the one who gives me the red or green light.
So now you have heard.
Good; I like to know whether someone who claims to be a MJ actually
is Jewish, because many are not and falsely claim so.
Thank you for answering.
By the way, who gives the red light for being Jewish? Do you rely on Oral Law,
or do you accept paternal lineage also?
And, yes you should be glad it's not me who decides,LOL, because by me it
would be a Jew who accepts another religion is no longer a Jew.

So a proselyte who becomes a Jew based on belief is not really a Jew? Why would you think that? Anyone who converts to Judaism halachaly
is as Jewish as any born Jew.

And if you are going to use the Jewish soul Jewish body thing - it depends on which sage you follow. which is why I used a qualifier

Prove to me that Yeshua is not Messiah. Use the Tanakh for your argument not just your opinion. :)Not my job. You will return to Judaism...if you practiced to begin with....
in due time. When HaShem wills it, it will happen. And then you will experience true teshuva.

[Torah613]

well said Chava.

I would also like to point out that it is forbidden to remind a convert that they are such. It would be better to eat pork and shellfish mixed together and covered in a cream sauce.

Yochanan

[ChavaK]

well said Chava.

I would also like to point out that it is forbidden to remind a convert that they are such.

Yochanan

Dis be true.

Did you hear El Al got into trouble for asking a man about his
conversion, as part of the screening process? Not only for
asking about it in public, where everyone could hear the
conversation, but for asking about it in the first place.

[Torah613]

As well they should! I know many converts, but to be truthful they all have as much yiddishkeit as me if not more. I've actually been shocked to learn that some of them are gerim.

I really don't care to know if someone is a convert as their Neshamot stood with us at Sinai that first Shavuot oh so long ago.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

As Kivi pointed out, this only applies to Jews.
Christians may worship anyone in any manner that they please.
They are not held to halachic standards.

I would never accuse a Christian of being an idol worshiper.
But a Jew who worships Jesus as G-d, that is a different matter.

Hope that clarifies matters....:) Shalom ChavaK. Interesting post. Why would YHWH call JESUS His Son if Jesus was YHWH :confused:

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him talking, behold!, a cloud, bright, overshadows them. And behold!, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is the Son of ME/YHWH, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 18:18, Acts 3:22]

[Torah613]

umm, HaShem said no such thing. We don't put much stock in the chr*stian scriptures.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

umm, HaShem said no such thing. We don't put much stock in the chr*stian scriptures.

YochananI know. But the Messianics do ;)

2 Corin 6:17 wherefore, come out ye/exelqete <1831> (5628) out of midst of them, and be ye being separated is saying Lord, and an unclean-thing no ye be touching, and I, I shall be receiving ye,

[I]Reve 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven, saying, "Come forth/exelqete <1831> (5628)! the People of Me, out of Her, that no ye may not being together-communioning to the Sins of her, and out of the stripes of her that no ye may be getting". [2 Corin 6:16-18]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

[ShirChadash]

I know. But the Messianics do ;)
sooo why are you asking a Jew?

[Talmidah]

umm, HaShem said no such thing. We don't put much stock in the chr*stian scriptures.

YochananI know. But the Messianics do ;) Of course. That's because they are Christians.

[Torah613]

precisely Talmidah.

I was wondering the same thing Shir.

yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course. That's because they are Christians.:thumbsup: And they appear to also be more Pharisictic correct?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye.

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood/xulw <3586> these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)?

[Torah613]

and once again we have misinformation cropping up. We are rabbinic Jews. We are direct descendants of the so-called Pharisees (we call them Sages). we are talking about different cultures here. In european (particularly the greco-roman laissaiz fair society) the pharisees could have been appalling in their "legalism." Within Judaism they were the moderates. Jews do search out the littlest, minutest laws to keep. Why? because we love HaShem, are grateful to HaShem, and this is the way we do it. HaShem has given us roofs over our heads, food in our bellies, life, and most importantly the Torah and all He asks in return is a little tithe on some mint. If you ask me its a steal.

so in short those verses you quote are dirty rotten lies about the Jewish people that do not hold up to the candle ofhistory.

But most importantly why on earth are you quoting the NT to Jews? I threw mine int he trash years ago.

Yochanan

Yochanan

[ShirChadash]

and once again we have misinformation cropping up. We are rabbinic Jews. We are direct descendants of the so-called Pharisees (we call them Sages). we are talking about different cultures here. In european (particularly the greco-roman laissaiz fair society) the pharisees could have been appalling in their "legalism." Within Judaism they were the moderates. Jews do search out the littlest, minutest laws to keep. Why? because we love HaShem, are grateful to HaShem, and this is the way we do it. HaShem has given us roofs over our heads, food in our bellies, life, and most importantly the Torah and all He asks in return is a little tithe on some mint. If you ask me its a steal.

so in short those verses you quote are dirty rotten lies about the Jewish people that do not hold up to the candle ofhistory.

But most importantly why on earth are you quoting the NT to Jews? I threw mine int he trash years ago.

Yochanan

Yochanan
:clap: B"H!!!

And yeah that :mad: to the lies.

[LittleLambofJesus]

so in short those verses you quote are dirty rotten lies about the Jewish people that do not hold up to the candle ofhistory.

But most importantly why on earth are you quoting the NT to Jews? I threw mine int he trash years ago.
Perhaps because this is a Christ-ian board?

The greek word JESUS used for "dry" in the NC also means "withered" and when JESUS came to the "Jews/Israelites", He essentially came to the land of the living "dead/dying".

Isaiah 60:1 Arise!, shine!; that your light came, and glory of YHWH on you He radiates.
2 For behold!, the darkness is covering land, and gross-darkness peoples; and over you YHWH is being radiant, and His glory over you is appearing.
3 And Nations go to Thy light, and Kings to brightness of thy rising/radiance.

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them.

[Torah613]

the question remains. Why would you ask a Jew about something in the NT? It is the same as asking a chr*stian to explain the BG. BTW, thanks for the daily dose of offensiveness. nice talking to ya.

Yochanan

[LittleLambofJesus]

the question remains. Why would you ask a Jew about something in the NT? It is the same as asking a chr*stian to explain the BG. BTW, thanks for the daily dose of offensiveness. nice talking to ya.

YochananThe Scriptures can tend to do that at times and one must also look at the audience JESUS and the Apostles were talking to.
For example, the Muslims view the Apostle Paul as a liar/deceiver and I would guess the Jews would also think of him that way as he did not write much good concerning the Jewish Rulers/Priesthood in His epistles. Shalom :wave:

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the Dogs/kunaV <2965>, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision/kata-tomhn <2699>!
3 For we-are the circumcision/peri-tomh <4061>, ones to Spirit of God worship/latreuonteV <3000> , boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Revelation 22:15 Without the Dogs/kuneV <2965>, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters/eidwlolatrai, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood

[Torah613]

Oy Gevalt. Someone call me when this thread gets back on topic please and the offensiveness to Jews subsides.

Yochanan

[anisavta]

Boker Tov Havarim! :wave: Good to see the posts for today are up and running at a nice clip.
Lets see where can I jump in.
Ya'll probably know this - sounds like some of you gave up the Christian thing or no doubt the church thing and the disillusionment of it for Judaism. But humor me here. Christian comes from the Greek word Christos which means annointed. Christ comes from Christos so when the first Believers were called Christians that ment little christs. It was ment as a slam but it fit because as we all know it is important to find a rabbi and follow in his dust. That is what the people of the Way did. They found rabbi Yeshua and followed in His dust. But again as we all know people have a wonderful way of taking the things of HaShem and screwing them up ( yes Jews do it too) and the church came along and took everything that Yeshua said and the apostles too and used it as a weapon against the people of HaShem's own heart.
Since I am not a Greek - but a Jew I am not a Christian. I am a Jew who believes that what was written in the Tanakh about a messiah has come to pass in Yeshua. BTW has anyone actually gone thru the Tanakh and found all the references to an annointed one - messiah to see who he is?
I am embarrased to be associated with many Christians because they are clueless. There are threads on this forum that make me want to throw up.:o
And as far as getting this thread back on track ... it did start with a desire for Messianics to share their thoughts.

[GerTzedek]

Lamb: you addressed your question to an Orthodox Jew. It makes no more sense to ask a Jew something about the New Testament than it would to ask you about the Upanishads or the Book or Mormon or the Quran -- it's inappropriate to ask someone a question like that about a book they do not consider authoritative. This has nothing to do with the scriptures being innately offensive, so please don't hide behind that nonsense. You made a mistake.

[ChavaK]

By the way, anisavta.....I know what you mean about people over using
language. Check out this reply in another forum. It is a Messianic Gentile
(although there is really nothing Messianic about her from what I have
seem; she seems to be Chrisitian in all her beliefs):

Those who are Yehudim and goyim Meshichim (those who believe in Y'shua shel-Natzaret (Jesus of Nazareth) as HaMashiach (the Messiah, Christ)) tend to use Tanakh and Brit Chadashah, and even study Talmud, in light of the Tanakh in its purest, Jewish, non-Talmudi form; and tend to be intellectually and overall honest and with integrity, although adom Meshichim admit to being imperfect and in need of Y'shua shel-Natzaret. Talmudim and other non-Messianic Jewish and gentile people, however, tend to justify themselves by appealing to their works and Talmudi thinking (Deuteronomy 9-28, Isaiah 29, 47, 57; Romans 1-14, Galatians 1-5).


Course, I think she makes up half the words and doesn't know what she
is talking about anyway...maybe that is why she uses this terminology, LOL.

[anisavta]

The Scriptures can tend to do that at times and one must also look at the audience JESUS and the Apostles were talking to.
For example, the Muslims view the Apostle Paul as a liar/deceiver and I would guess the Jews would also think of him that way as he did not write much good concerning the Jewish Rulers/Priesthood in His epistles. Shalom :wave:

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the Dogs/kunaV <2965>, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision/kata-tomhn <2699>!
3 For we-are the circumcision/peri-tomh <4061>, ones to Spirit of God worship/latreuonteV <3000> , boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Revelation 22:15 Without the Dogs/kuneV <2965>, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters/eidwlolatrai, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood

Paul was a Jew - a Pharisee in fact and he did not renounce that when he met Yeshua. BTW Yeshua was not ragging on the Pharisees for being Pharisees because in truth He was one too. He was warning them that it wasn't right for them to expect the people to follow the letter of the law and they could make up their own laws or disreguard them altogether by virtue of their rank.
What are you getting at with these scriptures anyhoo?

[anisavta]

By the way, anisavta.....I know what you mean about people over using
language. Check out this reply in another forum. It is a Messianic Gentile
(although there is really nothing Messianic about her from what I have
seem; she seems to be Chrisitian in all her beliefs):


Course, I think she makes up half the words and doesn't know what she
is talking about anyway...maybe that is why she uses this terminology, LOL.
I think:confused: I know what she means but not really sure. It is full of verbage. Not sure if she is trying to use her Ivrit er Hebrew for the sake of the Jew types or just to show she has mastered Beginning Hebrew 101...
English subtitles would have been nice.
BTW anyone here seen Ushpizin? Great movie!

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul was a Jew - a Pharisee in fact and he did not renounce that when he met Yeshua. BTW Yeshua was not ragging on the Pharisees for being Pharisees because in truth He was one too. He was warning them that it wasn't right for them to expect the people to follow the letter of the law and they could make up their own laws or disreguard them altogether by virtue of their rank.
What are you getting at with these scriptures anyhoo?Well since I was told by Orthodox Jews not to post anymore NC Scriptures here, I will leave with these final ones.

Who was JESUS talking to in Matt 11:29 and who are those in Reve 14:11. Perhaps if you can answer that, you might help explain to the Orthodox Jews what JESUS came to accomplish for them. And with that I bid thou farewell and Shalom. :wave::groupray:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm
Commentary written by Messianic Jew on Luke 16

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 11:29 Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to thine souls;


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night

Hebrews 4:3 For we are entering into the Rest/kata-pausin <2663>, the ones-believing. According to as He declared, "As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the Rest/kata-pausin <2663> of Me" and-those the works from down-casting of world being become. [Psalm 95:11]

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080520/32455_Orthodox_Jewish_Youths_Burn_New_Testaments_in_Israel.htm
Orthodox Jewish Youths Burn New Testaments in Israel

...................Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.

[Qalevra]

BTW has anyone actually gone thru the Tanakh and found all the references to an annointed one - messiah to see who he is?

Yes, but the term moshiach is used for those other than the messiah (Cyrus for example). As far as prophecies regarding the awaited messiah, I have looked over them extensively and I anxiously wait for messiah to come.

BTW anyone here seen Ushpizin? Great movie!
I have not, but I keep meaning to check it out. Thanks for reminding me!

[Qalevra]

Orthodox Jewish Youths Burn New Testaments in Israel

...................Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.

What is the point of this? To show how badly a small subsection of Jews treats Christian missionaries?

How have certain subsections of Christians treated Jews? Type "Holocaust" into Wikipedia, or "Inquisition", or "Pogrom".

I think we're all better served not trying to play the victim here, and keep the discussion on track.

[anisavta]

OY!!!:doh::doh:

No no no all Jews do not behave that way.
It is a small sect of Ultra Orthodox in Israel who are really no different than Hamas in their approach. They are anti Zion. They live in Israel, take money from Israel but do not work, do not serve in the IDF. Their lives revolve around harassing Messianic Jews with verbal and physical action.
They are responsible for trying to kill a family in Ariel. But instead of a bomb directed at the father - the 15 yr old son opened a Purim gift with a bomb in it and was blown up. Baruch HaShem he wasn't killed but he is looking at years of surgeries and physical therapy to get him somewhat back to "normal".
I am soooo sorry that the Gentiles would even think that a Jew who fears HaShem would do this. We have been taught by the Torah and our sages to honor life.

[ChavaK]

It is full of verbage. Not sure if she is trying to use her Ivrit er Hebrew for the sake of the Jew types or just to show she has mastered Beginning Hebrew 101...
Funny thing is, she doesn't know any Hebrew...


BTW anyone here seen Ushpizin? Great movie!

Yep, it is a great movie.....I would like to see it again.

[anisavta]

Funny thing is, she doesn't know any Hebrew...



Yep, it is a great movie.....I would like to see it again.

It was worth buying - come on over and you can watch it again. :)

[anisavta]

Yes, but the term moshiach is used for those other than the messiah (Cyrus for example). As far as prophecies regarding the awaited messiah, I have looked over them extensively and I anxiously wait for messiah to come.


I have not, but I keep meaning to check it out. Thanks for reminding me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO5ljVzMIsE Ani Ma'amin

[kivi]

:thumbsup: And they appear to also be more Pharisictic correct?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye.

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood/xulw <3586> these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)?

kivi says: Thank you for introducing one of Jesus Christ's nastiests temper tantrums. Talk about going over the top, talk about immaturity, talk about falsehoods, Jesus Christ in this rant is foaming at the mouth. And telling one falsehood after another about Judaism and the Pharisaic ''party',
1st: The Phraisees at about 30 CE were, by far, the largest group in Israel, making up over 90% of the population; in Babel, which had the largest Jewish Community in the world at the same time, the Pharisees make up 100% of the Jewish population; in the Greco-Roman Mediteranean world, the Pharisees were at least 50% of the Jewish population. Jesus Christ in the Matthew rant is condemning the fundamental beliefs of the core of the Jewish world. The Pharisees were not some sort of Greek choir of to the side, they were Judaism.

2nd: Jesus Christ has it wrong. G-d is NOT a man and G-d does not break His promises, He promises that He would never withdraw the obligation of Torah from the Jews. To claim otherwise is to deny the fundamental basis of Torah: that G-d keeps His word. So the parable of the landowner is slanderous of Judaism. If we fail in our obligation, He promised various forms of punishment like exile, but He also promised that He would never divorce/abandon/reject/get rid of us.

3rd: Jesus Christ purposely mis-applies the Torah when he talks about the corner-stone. The corner-stone refers to Dovid Ameleck, not to B'nai Israel. Bytaking the vese out of context, he is creating anothr falsehood. Anyone who supports the position of the New Testament in this case is involved in identity theft.
4th: The random grouping of Pharisees and scribes and High Priests and the Herodians and Sadducees on the part of the writers of Matthew betrayes a total and fundamental ignorance of how Judaism and Jewish society worked in the period of the Roman protectorate. No knowledgeable person would place those groups together as allies. IN fact, the fundamental differences between these groups condemned the 1st Jewish War to failure.

[ChavaK]

It was worth buying - come on over and you can watch it again. :)

Not with gas the price it is! Cheaper to buy the movie, the big screen tv,
and the dvd player, and stay home!

[anisavta]

Have you read all of Matthew in context or are you taking what Lamb wrote out of context? That would be like picking one or two phrases from Rambam and building a case.
Please don't just go off by several statements used as weapons.
Josephus was a 1st century historian and not a Believer who talked about the political climate and strange bedfellow relationships between the Romans and Rabbinic council during the time of Yeshua. Sad to say just like in every other generation before and after - there was corruption.
Yeshua was not condemning the office of Pharisee like I said before He was a true Pharisee. He was condemning what some of them were doing with the office.
No HaShem does not break His promises. What He promised to His people is irrevocable and will not be broken. Just read Jeremiah and Isaiah.

[kivi]

Paul was a Jew - a Pharisee in fact and he did not renounce that when he met Yeshua.
kivi says: That does not make sense. If we follow the autobiographical account of Paul, he came to Jerusalem as a young man and studied with the chief Pharisaic Rabbi in the city. The very same Rabbi that forbad the Jews from bothering/going after the followers of Jesus Christ. Then Paul claims to have been hired by the Saduccee priests of the Temple to track down and persecute followers of Jesus Christ. Which he does. That does not make sense. The Saducees and the Pharisees hated each other. Like HATED each other. The idea that a student of the chief Pharisaic Rabbi would disobey his Rabbi and go to wark for the Saducees is totally impossible. It could not have happened. In effect, either the world stopped spinning on its axis or Paul is not telling the truth.


BTW Yeshua was not ragging on the Pharisees for being Pharisees because in truth He was one too. He was warning them that it wasn't right for them to expect the people to follow the letter of the law and they could make up their own laws or disreguard them altogether by virtue of their rank.

kivi says: You are going to have to prove that. I have looked and looked and nowhere can I find an incident where the Rabbis forced the general Jewish population to do things that the Rabbis excused themselves from. It did not happen. And until you can prove it, I have to take it as another falsehood in the New Testament about Judaism.

What are you getting at with these scriptures anyhoo?

[anisavta]

Not with gas the price it is! Cheaper to buy the movie, the big screen tv,
and the dvd player, and stay home!
Dang ain't that true. When I am in Israel I walk everywhere or take the public transportation. Here I have to drive everywhere and it is crazy. Price for gas at a cheapo station where I live is $4.17 (at least last nite - it raises a few cents daily) for unleaded.

[kivi]

Well since I was told by Orthodox Jews not to post anymore NC Scriptures here, I will leave with these final ones.

kivi says: Tht is not true. No one told you not to post anything. All that was suggested is that Jews do not hold the New Testament as having any authority for Jews. Get off the pity pot.


Who was JESUS talking to in Matt 11:29 and who are those in Reve 14:11. Perhaps if you can answer that, you might help explain to the Orthodox Jews what JESUS came to accomplish for them. And with that I bid thou farewell and Shalom. :wave::groupray:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm
Commentary written by Messianic Jew on Luke 16

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 11:29 Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to thine souls;


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night

Hebrews 4:3 For we are entering into the Rest/kata-pausin <2663>, the ones-believing. According to as He declared, "As I have sware in My wrath, if they shall be entering into the Rest/kata-pausin <2663> of Me" and-those the works from down-casting of world being become. [Psalm 95:11]

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080520/32455_Orthodox_Jewish_Youths_Burn_New_Testaments_in_Israel.htm
Orthodox Jewish Youths Burn New Testaments in Israel

...................Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.

[anisavta]

kivi says: That does not make sense. If we follow the autobiographical account of Paul, he came to Jerusalem as a young man and studied with the chief Pharisaic Rabbi in the city. The very same Rabbi that forbad the Jews from bothering/going after the followers of Jesus Christ. Then Paul claims to have been hired by the Saduccee priests of the Temple to track down and persecute followers of Jesus Christ. Which he does. That does not make sense. The Saducees and the Pharisees hated each other. Like HATED each other. The idea that a student of the chief Pharisaic Rabbi would disobey his Rabbi and go to wark for the Saducees is totally impossible. It could not have happened. In effect, either the world stopped spinning on its axis or Paul is not telling the truth.




kivi says: You are going to have to prove that. I have looked and looked and nowhere can I find an incident where the Rabbis forced the general Jewish population to do things that the Rabbis excused themselves from. It did not happen. And until you can prove it, I have to take it as another falsehood in the New Testament about Judaism.

Yes Paul studied with Gamaliel.
Please show me where Paul was hired by the Saduccees.
And just for the sake of argument - could it not be possible for two hated rivals to join forces to stop what they thought was a threat to both. Like when both Demos and Repubs join forces to stop something that poses a threat to both parties?
I'm sure I'll get an argument out of you on this but this was not a spiritual issue here. It was political.
Where did you look and look? Care to give me some references you checked?

[kivi]

Have you read all of Matthew in context or are you taking what Lamb wrote out of context?

kivi says: Yes, I have; and the parables of the landowner & the vineyard and the king & the wedding guests are very clear. Jesus Christ is saying that G-d will take away the obligations of Torah from B'nai Israel if we do not shape up. That is totally opposed to the Prophets, to the Chumash and to the Jwish Tradition. To make the threat that Jesus Christ makes is an abandonment of G-d integrity.

That would be like picking one or two phrases from Rambam and building a case.
Please don't just go off by several statements used as weapons.
Josephus was a 1st century historian and not a Believer who talked about the political climate and strange bedfellow relationships between the Romans and Rabbinic council during the time of Yeshua. Sad to say just like in every other generation before and after - there was corruption.

kivi says: I don't know what part of Josephus' writing you are referring too. Care to go into more detail so I can track it down? Until you do, I'll have to take what you say and put it off to the side.


Yeshua was not condemning the office of Pharisee like I said before He was a true Pharisee. He was condemning what some of them were doing with the office.

kivi says: I'm sorry, but he never makes that distinction. He never says what part of the Pharisaic Rabbinate he is singling out. He always just says: 'Pharisees'. If that is a 'part' he is referring too, can you point them out?


No HaShem does not break His promises. What He promised to His people is irrevocable and will not be broken. Just read Jeremiah and Isaiah.

kivi says: Therefore, what Matthew says with the parable of the vineyard and the wedding party is wrong. Right?!?

[kivi]

Yes Paul studied with Gamaliel.
Please show me where Paul was hired by the Saduccees.

kivi says: What was he doing on the road to Damascus but going under the authority of the Saducee priests of the Temple to persecute the Christian church in Damascus? See Acts 8:1-4; 9:1-3


And just for the sake of argument - could it not be possible for two hated rivals to join forces to stop what they thought was a threat to both. Like when both Demos and Repubs join forces to stop something that poses a threat to both parties?

kivi says: There is just no evidence of what you refer to, either in the Jwish sources or the Christian sources. The Pharisees got their name for their removal from civil Roman society and their setting up a parallel Jewish society with its own welfare system, its own law courts, its own schools, its own 'underground' government. If you have proof, I would like to see it.


I'm sure I'll get an argument out of you on this but this was not a spiritual issue here. It was political.

kivi says: Oh, I got that. Of course, I could state with some sense of correctness that Judaism makes no distinction, as Jesus Christ did, that there is what is Ceasar's and then there is what is G-d's. In Judaism, politics is spiritual and spiritual is politics. Either G-d is everything or He is nothing.


Where did you look and look? Care to give me some references you checked?

kivi says: Well, since its the New Testament that makes the charge, I looked in the New Testament and couldn't find any evidence to support the charge, just general griping. I also looked in the Talmud and couldn't find anything, there. Its pretty hard to 'find' nothing. But that's what I found.

[ChavaK]

Dang ain't that true. When I am in Israel I walk everywhere or take the public transportation. Here I have to drive everywhere and it is crazy. Price for gas at a cheapo station where I live is $4.17 (at least last nite - it raises a few cents daily) for unleaded.

I don't ride the buses in Israel for safety reasons, I will take a cab
(talk about cheap!) but I prefer walking. Love the scenery, and it is
better health wise. I also love to window shop.

Our gas is "cheap" then.....$3.95, at least of this morning.
This evening, who knows.

[anisavta]

kivi says: Yes, I have; and the parables of the landowner & the vineyard and the king & the wedding guests are very clear. Jesus Christ is saying that G-d will take away the obligations of Torah from B'nai Israel if we do not shape up. That is totally opposed to the Prophets, to the Chumash and to the Jwish Tradition. To make the threat that Jesus Christ makes is an abandonment of G-d integrity.



kivi says: I don't know what part of Josephus' writing you are referring too. Care to go into more detail so I can track it down? Until you do, I'll have to take what you say and put it off to the side.




kivi says: I'm sorry, but he never makes that distinction. He never says what part of the Pharisaic Rabbinat