What Is the Purpose of Wesley's Parish?

[Speculative]

As I look through the congregational forums, I see many forums of vibrant fellowship, discussion, and yes, even debate, over various issues concerning the various denominations. OBOB, TAW, SR, STR and some of the others are very active.

I don't see that here at Wesley's Parish, and I wonder why.

There's one fellowship thread, a book thread where they're studying a book by a Calvinist, and every once in awhile, someone will post a question such as "What do Methodists believe?" to which someone will respond with a link to UMC.org.

In the rare event that Wesleyan doctrine is even discussed, most of the responses advocate against Wesleyan teaching or hermeneutics.

As a Methodist, I know there are many issues affecting the UMC such as the confessing and reconciling movements, issues of social justices, various liturgical preferences, etc. but nobody ever seems to want to discuss any of them.

So, I'm curious: what is the purpose of this forum? Why is it even here? It seems that from the theological/social/political bent of the "in-crowd" here, this forum could just be closed down and you all could just post at "Conservative Christians".

[christianmomof3]

Well, you are a Methodist. What do you think the answer is? I was going to ask about ya'll's beliefs, but if all I would get is a link to UMC.org, then that is not what I am looking for anyway.
Are there many Methodists here at CF anyway?
And could the lack of activity be due to the Methodist teachings and beliefs or lack therof?
I met a man who was raised Methodist and he thinks that a "ministry" consists of doing good and nice things for people.
But he is disillusioned with the religion because he sees the hypocracy of people doing nice things every once and a while and or going to church on Sunday and still being just as gossipy and unChristlike (not his term) as everyone else.

So, my question is - does the Methodist church teach that Jesus Christ is God and that He wants to live in us and be our life? Do they teach that if we confess our sins and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and are baptised into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Lord Himself will dwell in us and that He will be our life, our peace, our hope and our faith? Do they teach that God is real and living and active and wonderful and that being a Christian is about God, not just about doing nice good things? Do they teach that we must be born again with God as our life?

(just wondering :sorry: )

[MoeSzyslak]

So, my question is - does the Methodist church teach that Jesus Christ is God and that He wants to live in us and be our life? Do they teach that if we confess our sins and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and are baptised into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Lord Himself will dwell in us and that He will be our life, our peace, our hope and our faith? Do they teach that God is real and living and active and wonderful and that being a Christian is about God, not just about doing nice good things? Do they teach that we must be born again with God as our life?

Yes. Our local churches slogan is "connecting people to Jesus Christ" and we take it very seriously.

[christianmomof3]

Yes. Our local churches slogan is "connecting people to Jesus Christ" and we take it very seriously.
How do you do it? What does "connecting people to Jesus Christ" mean to you?

[MoeSzyslak]

One of the things I personally like about Wesley's parish is that we can come here and just have fellowship. I work ten hours a day at a job where I have to argue with people. Then I have to come home and deal with my 4 and 6 year old children, who make my work day look mellow. So one of the things I enjoy is the fellowship.

To each their own, but as I look across some of the other forums here, I'm not jealous. I see brothers and sisters in Christ acting very deragotory and demeaning towards each other. The fruits of the spirit are "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." (Gal 5) I see them being practiced here. Like I said to each their own, maybe I'm just looking for something different then they are.

As far as discussing Weslyean teachings, I'd love it. Probably not knowledgable enough to 'debate', but I'm all up for learning something. And I believe this parish would be able to do it without sinking to the levels I've seen elsewhere.

Post in "conservative Christians?" That's funny! I had us picked for moderate to liberal. (and here I didn't think I fit in with a personal moderate to conservative bent.) It's kind of interesting how different people read different things into the same thing.

Also remember, it's not a "Methodist" forum. It's a Wesleyan forum. I am hoping to learn about our Nazarene brothers and sisters. (and others for that matter) Ya never know when a convention is going to change something, and I may want to jump ship. (your right, I could post in conservative Christians- I'm so embarrassed:blush: )

Your right though, we should start some discussions on Weslyeans teaching's here. I, for one, would learn allot.

[MoeSzyslak]

How do you do it? What does "connecting people to Jesus Christ" mean to you?


My wife is paging me. Let me hit you up tommorrow. I'm am soooo pumped about what my church is doing to connect people to Jesus as their savior, I can't just rattle it off it 1 minute..

[Redheadedstepchild]

Yep. I've given the link to UMC.org. It's hard to know exactly what people are looking for if they aren't asking specific questions.
Yes, Methodists believe all those things you mentioned. The difference between us and other denominations is how we view salvation...I am not an expert on theology, but basically we believe we are saved by the grace of God. Essentially God extends his grace to us but it's up to us to respond to that grace. He gives us free will to make that choice.
And for me, connecting people to Jesus Christ means obeying John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." It does not mean doing the occaisional nice thing for others in the name of Christianity, because you feel you should. Regarding others with love is a way of life, and I think if you have that love those "nice things" occur naturally. But, I readily admit that I don't always live up to that expectation.

Anyway, as to the OP, what is holding you back from starting those topics that you want to talk about? I've seen some of the things you mentioned being discussed here. I don't agree that most responses are against Wesleyan teaching, though I do think that we are inclined to consider or at least try to understand other views. In fact, I see that trait as being distinctly Methodist. I agree with Moe about the debating. If you want to, go right ahead. I'm usually reading those threads to glean what I can from them, but honestly I don't have the energy or knowledge to actually debate. I'm also with Moe on our political bent, but then I don't know for sure because we don't discuss it. If the WP were to close I'd probably hang out over on Spirit Filled. *shrug* Don't think I'd fit in with the conservatives.

[Joykins]

I like that this forum is not contentious but I admit I wouldn't mind if it were a bit more active.

So....who wants my notes from my class on the hymns of Charles Wesley? Going once...going twice...

[Speculative]

Well, you are a Methodist. What do you think the answer is? I was going to ask about ya'll's beliefs, but if all I would get is a link to UMC.org, then that is not what I am looking for anyway.
Are there many Methodists here at CF anyway?
And could the lack of activity be due to the Methodist teachings and beliefs or lack therof?
I met a man who was raised Methodist and he thinks that a "ministry" consists of doing good and nice things for people.
But he is disillusioned with the religion because he sees the hypocracy of people doing nice things every once and a while and or going to church on Sunday and still being just as gossipy and unChristlike (not his term) as everyone else.

So, my question is - does the Methodist church teach that Jesus Christ is God and that He wants to live in us and be our life? Do they teach that if we confess our sins and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and are baptised into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Lord Himself will dwell in us and that He will be our life, our peace, our hope and our faith? Do they teach that God is real and living and active and wonderful and that being a Christian is about God, not just about doing nice good things? Do they teach that we must be born again with God as our life?

(just wondering :sorry: )Just go to UMC.org. All the answers are there :D

But seriously, to answer some of your questions, I see Methodists around CF from time to time. Some of whom never post here. Others post here only sporadically, or come for awhile and leave. Before I joined CF there was a knowledgeable Methodist pastor that used to post around CF and now he's gone. Also there was a mod here who was an anglican, but he believed in a lot of Wesleyan doctrine and was very informed about it--he had a Wesley avatar.

Your other questions deal more directly with what I'm frustrated about. I have no idea how to answer what the Methodist church teaches, because I find drastically different teachings and liturgical methods in different churches, amongst different Methodist clergy and different members within the church. I can tell you this, though: my experience is that our Anglican roots and Wesleyan doctrine are NOT what is of very much importance to most Methodists I run across. Usually, I run across two kinds: 1) Those who have succumbed to the lure of the American evangelical counterculture--sort of Baptists without all the water. This is the impression I get from most of the posters around here and 2) those that have gone down rabbit-trails of various liberation theologies, panentheism, or a sort of secular humanism with a little God-talk mixed in. This might describe some of the Methodists the man you described dealt with. What I'd like to see is more or less a traditional, moderate Anglican liturgical style mixed with Wesleyan emphasis on social works and Holiness. I'd like to see a church that held to taught traditional beliefs from a Wesleyan standpoint, but didn't have some of the harsher, judgmental edges that I see in a lot of the popular modern evangelical movements.

One of the things I personally like about Wesley's parish is that we can come here and just have fellowship. I work ten hours a day at a job where I have to argue with people. Then I have to come home and deal with my 4 and 6 year old children, who make my work day look mellow. So one of the things I enjoy is the fellowship.

To each their own, but as I look across some of the other forums here, I'm not jealous. I see brothers and sisters in Christ acting very deragotory and demeaning towards each other. The fruits of the spirit are "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." (Gal 5) I see them being practiced here. Like I said to each their own, maybe I'm just looking for something different then they are.

As far as discussing Weslyean teachings, I'd love it. Probably not knowledgable enough to 'debate', but I'm all up for learning something. And I believe this parish would be able to do it without sinking to the levels I've seen elsewhere.

Post in "conservative Christians?" That's funny! I had us picked for moderate to liberal. (and here I didn't think I fit in with a personal moderate to conservative bent.) It's kind of interesting how different people read different things into the same thing.

Also remember, it's not a "Methodist" forum. It's a Wesleyan forum. I am hoping to learn about our Nazarene brothers and sisters. (and others for that matter) Ya never know when a convention is going to change something, and I may want to jump ship. (your right, I could post in conservative Christians- I'm so embarrassed:blush: )

Your right though, we should start some discussions on Weslyeans teaching's here. I, for one, would learn allot.Well, I disagree to some extent about your characterization of WP. What I see is politeness. I think politeness can be a killer to real fellowship. It's like everyone is scared to say what they really believe (or worse yet, don't even have an opinion) so no real heart to heart fellowship occurs. I think we have to risk disagreeing with eachother and perhaps even offending eachother. If we are truly following Christ, we will be quick to forgive and "agree to disagree" if necessary. Yes, I AM jealous of my brothers and sisters in OBOB, so much so that I've considered creating a sock with a Catholic icon, just so I can be a regular member there. I'm a former Catholic, so I could pull it off. However, I'm NOT going to do this as I think it would be dishonest.

And yes, I am aware we have Nazarene brothers and sisters here, and this also applies to them. I just used Methodist because that's what I am, but I'm sure there are issues facing the Nazarene church that we could all learn from, but I don't see them posting a whole heck of a lot about it.

And we're definitely on the same page where your last sentence is concerned. I would hope that the next book in the "WP Book Club" would be by a Wesleyan (or geez, at LEAST an Arminian). I'd like to learn more about Wesleyan distinctives, too, and have no idea what are the good books to read. The people at our church are reading the panentheists, and the people here are reading Calvinists. I feel like the Wesleys are the best kept secrets in Christianity.

Sorry if the tone of my posts here comes across as too strong, but I'm trying to find my way in Protestantism, and am having a very frustrating time of it.

[Kristen.NewCreation]

As I've read this thread, I've found my emotions quite close to the surface. I will try to put into words my thoughts on the questions here.

I was looking through the forums and saw some a question from someone asking about visiting a Nazarene church and what it was like. I began to visit the forum at that point, and as I read the posts here I found a group of people who were kind and gentle and who share a love of God as I do. As I continued to get to know those who were posting here, these people that I've met I've been growing to love. I cherish deeply the people that I've met and continue to meet in this forum, and my life would have a large void in it without these people.

I very much enjoy the politeness of this forum, because even when members don't agree with everything said, people and their feelings are still valued. The words are kind, even when the message may be opinionated. Having read in multiple active forums here where members turn on each other, I quite frankly prefer WP.

I wouldn't mind more discussion, but I rarely have any desire to discuss doctrines. If I do, it's because I'm questioning something I've heard or read. I'm not opposed to it, but I do not desire it. I want to discuss issues of being more like Christ. I don't honestly care whose books we study, if it leads me closer to Christ. If someone presents a Wesleyan book that directs us that way, I'd be quite happy to read it as well.

I'd encourage anyone here to begin discussions with what is on their heart. Ask questions, share your thoughts, as done in this OP. For visitors and newer members to WP, jump in - introduce yourself and give us a chance to get to know you and you to know us.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts... and for all who jumped in and shared as well.

[Speculative]

Well, it's quite evident that the mods here have a drastically different vision for Wesley's Parish than I do. I prefer real fellowship, including the occasional dustup, to distant politeness any day. If I want to be treated with polite contempt, I'll call my insurance company.

I'm sorry for disturbing your little oasis here, but I really wanted to discuss Wesleyan and Methodist doctrine and practices with other Wesleyans. Obviously, that's not what this forum is for and that's kind of sad.

By the way, Moe, I read "The Way of A Pilgrim" and it was excellent--a great help to my faith and an encouragement to me. I thank you for the recommendation.

God Bless you all.

[Redheadedstepchild]

Hey now...not sure I agree with this. 1st of all, I see the spirit here as being one of respect rather than politeness. And I think we are unique in that we are capable of maintaining that feel even in "debate" threads. Of course I think talking about Wesleyan doctorine and practices is a good thing - though I may do more reading than commenting because I have a lot to learn. So again, if you want those threads start them. Here's an idea...what's the difference between the Wesleyan and Calvinist views of holiness?:P ;)

[Speculative]

Hey now...not sure I agree with this. 1st of all, I see the spirit here as being one of respect rather than politeness. And I think we are unique in that we are capable of maintaining that feel even in "debate" threads. Of course I think talking about Wesleyan doctorine and practices is a good thing - though I may do more reading than commenting because I have a lot to learn. So again, if you want those threads start them. Here's an idea...what's the difference between the Wesleyan and Calvinist views of holiness?:P ;)Well, I'm sure it's a difference of perception, and I'll acknowledge that, but I still think my perspective is valid.

Sometimes politeness is a very disrespectful way to treat someone. Like I alluded to earlier, some of the most polite people I encounter are those that I talk to from my cable company, phone company, and utility company. They very politely tell me they are going to screw me out of my hard earned money while providing a lesser service than they originally promised. Politeness, in these instances, is a way to dehumanize me and invalidate my positions.

Now I'm not advocating we all start flaming eachother. I think you're right about being respectful. However, I think it's an error to refrain from engaging in conversation for fear that we may offend or be offended. If we are truly to dance with one another, we have to risk the possibility that we might step on each other's toes. Then we pick ourselves up, ask for/grant forgiveness, and move on. That's the way I'd like to see it, anyway.

Anyway, thanks for discussing all this with me and God Bless you. Have a great Palm Sunday! :)

[cristianna]

Speculative I have to give you ample credit over this. Instead of being offended and leaving, you spoke up. I have to respect that.

And I pray you realize your name was nothing more than an innocent oversight as the list was being created.

[Speculative]

Okay, I've had a full day to think about it and I'd like to make a few more comments in this thread. First of all I will address the contact list. It's not really what this thread was about, but it is related, and I don't want to further mess up the sticky with my comments.

As I'm sure many of you are aware, there was a big hullabaloo about joining individual congregational forums a few months ago. Forums were creating membership lists and deciding who was in and who was out based on a variety of criteria that (IMO) had little to no relevance to whether or not people should post in that particular forum. There were a lot of other issues, too, but this is the pertinent one to this discussion. All of this upset me very much. Even amongst professed Christians at CF, there seems to be this undertone of defining who is the "right kind" of Christian.

When this contact list came out, I didn't understand it's purpose. It looked to me like a list of the "right kind" of people in Wesley's Parish. I know that in the past here that I have mentioned that I use a prayer rope and am considering returning to praying the rosary. I mentioned how meaningful these prayers were for me. I've also mentioned that I entertain a somewhat progressive hermeneutical approach, prefer traditional services and have some social and political views which, in the United States, would be classified as liberal.

For these reasons, I feel that I may be atypical of most WP posters. This feels kind of odd to me, because I feel I fit in pretty well with most Methodists I meet in real life.

For all these reasons, it was my knee-jerk reaction that I was being disqualified from "full" membership in WP for holding some of the views listed above. Regardless, I accept the explanation given to me by several of you guys and apologize for making such a big deal out of it. I hope we can all move on from this.....which brings me to my next point.

I first joined CF to learn more about the Christian faith, and to fellowship with other believers, and to encourage and be encouraged by them (you).

However, since the hullabaloo I mentioned earlier, I seem to have lost my way. My role here at CF became more about trying to be argumentative and clever than about being gracious and encouraging.

I'm very sorry about that. As Holy Week is upon us and we commemorate the passion and death of our Savior, and celebrate his resurrection this coming Sunday, I think it would be a good time for me to repent and amend my (online) life and return to the role I had before.

So, thanks for reading and walking me through all this, and God Bless you all :)

[cristianna]

Okay, I've had a full day to think about it and I'd like to make a few more comments in this thread. First of all I will address the contact list. It's not really what this thread was about, but it is related, and I don't want to further mess up the sticky with my comments.

As I'm sure many of you are aware, there was a big hullabaloo about joining individual congregational forums a few months ago. Forums were creating membership lists and deciding who was in and who was out based on a variety of criteria that (IMO) had little to no relevance to whether or not people should post in that particular forum. There were a lot of other issues, too, but this is the pertinent one to this discussion. All of this upset me very much. Even amongst professed Christians at CF, there seems to be this undertone of defining who is the "right kind" of Christian.

When this contact list came out, I didn't understand it's purpose. It looked to me like a list of the "right kind" of people in Wesley's Parish.

I actually had no idea about the issues amongst the other areas. But I can definitely see where that could paint a rather disturbing picture if one didn't understand.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of that thread. We've had some members who have not come back to CF in a long time (even prior to the 7/7/07 thing). Two that I keep in mind and prayer are we5frogs and tpony. Both were gentle, older ladies. Tpony came back one day to talk about the medical issues she had and was still facing during her absence. Sadly, we5frogs I still do not know what happened to. While their current "health status" percentage may be minimal, they were very active members at one time.


I know that in the past here that I have mentioned that I use a prayer rope and am considering returning to praying the rosary. I mentioned how meaningful these prayers were for me. I've also mentioned that I entertain a somewhat progressive hermeneutical approach, prefer traditional services and have some social and political views which, in the United States, would be classified as liberal.

I personally am not offended by your choices, nor does it raise any of my eyebrows. If I have ever led you to feel that way I am sorry.

The real beauty of what our Creator has made is the differences in styles and opinions each of us hold. I prefer contemporary over traditional services. And at our church it's the same sermon preached with the same message. But I certainly will not fault or look down upon you for what speaks louder to your heart.

For these reasons, I feel that I may be atypical of most WP posters. This feels kind of odd to me, because I feel I fit in pretty well with most Methodists I meet in real life.
I think you fit in pretty well here. And I think your points are always of interest. If anyone has done anything specific to make you feel differently... pm me their name and I'll take care of them. ;)

Seriously though, while you may feel atypical, if you really look around we have quite a range of dynamics here within WP. Working moms, singles/couples only, college students, unequally yoked marriages, homescshooling parent and public school parents, and more. I think it's a lovely hodge podge of perspectives and experiences that benefit everyone.


For all these reasons, it was my knee-jerk reaction that I was being disqualified from "full" membership in WP for holding some of the views listed above. Regardless, I accept the explanation given to me by several of you guys and apologize for making such a big deal out of it. I hope we can all move on from this.....which brings me to my next point.
Appology absolutely accepted! And again, I truly do respect and appreciate your coming forward instead of allowing those feelings of seclusion leaving no choice but to leave without a word why. And I'm equally glad you gave us a chance to explain.

I first joined CF to learn more about the Christian faith, and to fellowship with other believers, and to encourage and be encouraged by them (you).

However, since the hullabaloo I mentioned earlier, I seem to have lost my way. My role here at CF became more about trying to be argumentative and clever than about being gracious and encouraging.

I'm very sorry about that. As Holy Week is upon us and we commemorate the passion and death of our Savior, and celebrate his resurrection this coming Sunday, I think it would be a good time for me to repent and amend my (online) life and return to the role I had before.

So, thanks for reading and walking me through all this, and God Bless you all :)
I'll be praying for you. :prayer:

[Redheadedstepchild]

I'm sorry too, but I feel pretty good about the end result. I may not agree with you on everything, but I think you raise some valid points which can help us improve things. I'm reminded that CF is a ministry. We need to be open to things that can help us reach out to others. And, I think we need people who are not afraid to bring those things out - otherwise we might not be aware of how others perceive us.
I really don't think there is a typical Wesleyan. You are thinking of praying the rosary and I may go walk a labyrinth, but we are both seeking a deeper relationship with God. We are a diverse group, and we can learn much from each other. I think our strength is the encouragement we give to one another, so if that's what your role is here than you are definetely in the right place. :)

[GraceSeeker]

I can't speak to why other people are post in the WP. So, I think I should speak just for myself.

First, I am not really interested in the rest of CF. I have posted a few times in the theology areas, and honestly, I find the discussions there rather weak. I don't think that a lot of arguing constituets depth, most whitewater rapids with all of their froth and foam are caused by the narrowing of views and a shallow river bed. It is still waters that run deep.

I find that to be true of the WP. As the author of the letter to the Hebrews wrote: Hebrews 6
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. I feel that some of the other parts of CF are still wanting to debate these elementary teachings, trying to lay the foundation again and again and again. While, praise God, I get a sense that here in the WP there is an interest in going on to maturity, which Wesley said means the practice of Christian love. What I see in the WP is that rather than discussing doctrine we are trying to put it into practice. And for that I am so grateful.

It is not that I am either foreign to or against debate. In fact I am a part of several other internet forums where that occurs on a regular basis. What I found so appealing about the WP is that it does NOT go overboard in those things. Rather, this is a reflective group, a supportive group, a group where experience (again a unique aspect of Wesleyan theology) is given as much credence and time as other things that contribute to our Christian walk. And I find that aspect of the WP not only unique, but entirely attractive.

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Oh, and Speculative, I most definitely see you as an integral and contributing part of the WP. I'm glad you're here.

[contriteheart]

Speculative, have you considered that perhaps the spiritual personality test we all took awhile back may be contributing to your feelings about WP? If I recall correctly, you were a mystic - as am I.

I can't speak for you, but I am kind of a restless person, spiritually speaking. I am very idealistic, and quite disappointed when folks don't live up to high ideals I cherish. I want a greater, and deeper understanding of God, and I pursue it vigorously and forcefully - often by examining and even adopting the beliefs and practices of other Christians who are different than I am. I expect others to have the same kind of active, restless hunger to know and experience more of God that I do - and am disappointed when they don't seem to (to my silly little pea brain, anyway).

HOWEVER, I understand (if only with my mind, but maybe not yet my heart) that just because others aren't pursuing God in the same manner that I do, that does not mean that they are not pursuing Him at all. Most of the time, it just means that they are wired differently than me. I could spend hours talking about obscure theological issues. I thrive on that kind of thing. On a gut level, I don't understand it when others aren't really all that interested in it. However, what really matters when the rubber meets the road is how what we do with that knowledge. If the folks here in WP are able to pull off charitable fellowship with one another, even in the midst of differences, I guess that says a lot about their heart for God and others.

Though I am a Methodist, I don't hang around here much. I guess in a way when I'm online I'm seeking a challenge to my ways of thinking and believing - an iron sharpening iron kind of thing. Maybe even a devil's advocate kind of thing. That's not really what I find in WP. BUT it doesn't mean that WP is doing things wrong. It just means that, though I appreciate the warmth, love, and graciousness of the people here, it's probably not a place where I'll spending a lot of time. Why I like going places on CF where people do the equivalent of bashing my head in with their giant spiritual sledge-hammers, I guess I'll never know. But I guess to some extent, I guess it's just the way I'm wired.

You know, I remember many years ago when I was a child in a Methodist Church, they led us through a study of some book called, "I'm Okay, You're Okay." That seems to sum up a lot of my experience with Methodism. It's a pretty big tent, and people don't seem to get too riled up about much. I tend to migrate to places on CF that have more of an "I'm Okay, You're a Heretic" kind of bent - not because I like pointing fingers at others (though, sadly, I do that way too well), but because I like others to challenge me. It seems to help me grow.

[Speculative]

You are thinking of praying the rosary and I may go walk a labyrinth, but we are both seeking a deeper relationship with God. Oh, well, we do have one thing in common. I, too am a big fan of the labyrinth:thumbsup:

But I do also want to respond to contriteheart. I think you bring up many valid points. Some of my frustration with WP mirrors my frustration with my chuch. Now, I love my church and there are a lot of great people there, but it seems that few share this kind of desire to seek the deeper mysteries of God in a similar way that I do. Now, I don't want to sound like I'm setting myself up as more spiritual or better than they--Many other Christians I know, here and there, are far better at living out the gospel than I am, so, if anything, I'm a bit behind.

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts together on this right now, so I'll just say that I appreciate your post and a lot of what you said does apply to me.

I also appreciate the encouragement from the rest of you as well.

God Bless you guys :)

[AquilaGT]

Hey Speculative - some good thought provoking comments.

I think the purpose of WP is for Wesleyans (Methodists - United Methodist, African Methodist Episcopal, Nazarene, Free Methodist, Wesleyan Church, and all the other Wesleyan denoms) to discuss all sort of things from a Wesleyan perspective. Also to share experiences. I have had a lot of good conversations here on theology, issues facing the United Methodist Church, a pleasant surprise finding other Methodist interested in ancient spiritual practices, etc. Basically sharing with and learning from my sisters & bros in all the Methodist/Wesleyan denoms.

You said in one post "What I'd like to see is more or less a traditional, moderate Anglican liturgical style mixed with Wesleyan emphasis on social works and Holiness. I'd like to see a church that held to taught traditional beliefs from a Wesleyan standpoint, but didn't have some of the harsher, judgmental edges that I see in a lot of the popular modern evangelical movements." That's cool - when I read that I said WOW I could have said that! I think that describes the middle point for much of the UMC. Of course, in a denom this big, there is a lot of variety on both sides of the mid-point. I have been blessed to find a church that is basically what you described. In fact, that describes most of the medium to large UMCs in my area. I know that some of the smaller or more rural congregations aren't very liturgical, but I would be shocked to find a UMC that is harsh and judgemental, even here is the USA South. UMC is often a refuge for people coming from such churches.

If you have the feeling that you want to move deeper with God, you ought to look into Walk to Emmaus, sponsored by the UMC Board of Discipleship. It starts with a weekend retreat -it's awesome.

Finally, if you want some dust-ups, General Conference for UMC starts April 23 and runs 10 days. This is the decision making body that speaks for the entire United Methodist Church, and meets every four years. You could probably kick up some dust by discussing some of the issues that will be voted on there - some are pretty controversial!


Grace and peace to you brother!

[Speculative]

Hi AquilaGT. Thanks for posting. To be honest, my church actually meets my liturgical needs pretty well and most people agree with my political views.

My only beef with it is that it goes a little too liberal on the theological side. I'm a bit left of center on that bit myself, but I think our church goes somewhat further than I'd like sometimes.

We just got a new pastor, so I'm not sure how it will go, but it appears like she'll come a little closer to my theological beliefs, but not be as strong (from my perspective) as our former pastor.

I'd like to attend General Conference but work schedules being what they are, I don't think it's doable in the forseeable future.

I've heard a little bit about that Walk to Emmaus, though and I might be interested in that sometime.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

Spec,
thanks for posting this topic and for all your insight and comments. I have read the whole thread and found it quite interesting and can relate to alot that has been said. I too am a former Catholic and i even hung out in OBOB for the first 3 yrs i was on CF and still lurk their pretty often. In the one sense, i DO wish WP had more threads and more topics, debates and more fellowship as well. But on the other hand things could get messy with that stuff too. I know i would spend more time in WP if there was more to talk about. i was one of the people in the book club discussion and read that entire book..i had no idea it was written by a Calvinist, but now that i know that i have more to add to the book discussion thread..lol..so thanks for that! Go ahead and start more topics, i would love to participate. i would love to find out more about Wesleyan theology as well. i have only been attending a Nazarene church for a bit over a year myself, but i did work as Secretary in a UMC for 3 yrs and learned alot from the Pastor there. I just thought of a topic for a thread..so i think i will go post it. Thanks for the lively discussion!

[Speculative]

i was one of the people in the book club discussion and read that entire book..i had no idea it was written by a Calvinist, but now that i know that i have more to add to the book discussion thread..lol..so thanks for that!Don't get me wrong, though. IIRC, The Pursuit of Holiness is a good book.

My frustration stems from my perception that there seems to be a lack of Wesleyan resources out there, and I'm having a hard time discovering what is distinctly "Wesleyan". I'd like to see us work on that in Wesley's Parish, but I don't really know how to go about it. I have no idea what are some good books from a Wesleyan perspective.

I just got back from the bookstore and went to the Christian section: there were a lot of Bibles, a lot of Left Behind books, a lot of books by TBNers, a lot of evangelical books, a fair amount of Catholic books, and a few liberal theology books. They even had volume one of the Philokalia. I didn't see a single book that I could identify as being about Wesleyan theology, or written by a Wesleyan, or about John or Charles Wesley. Maybe there were some there, and I couldn't identify them. I don't know.:sigh:

[cristianna]

Maybe these are a good start:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/perfection/files/perfection.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/sermons.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/notes.html

[cristianna]

And here's Amazon's collection:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_ex_n_3?ie=UTF8&rs=12809&keywords=John%2BWesley&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AJohn%2BWesley%2Ci%3Astripbooks%2Cn%3A1000%2Cn%3A22

[Speculative]

Thanks for those suggestions, cristianna. I think I'm going to be spending some time over at ccel.

As far as the amazon books are concerned, have you read any of them? Which ones are good. There are some very tempting sounding titles there. How about "John Wesley: Holiness of Heart and Life?" I think I've seen that before. Maybe it's in the church library. Sounds like a good one :)

[contriteheart]

Try Thomas Oden. I haven't yet read his works, but I hear he is the premier Wesleyan theologan out there today. Many works of his are available at Amazon, and they look very interesting.

Oh, and if you haven't taken the Christian Believer class at your church (if they offer it), RUN, DON'T WALK to sign up for it! It is BY FAR the best class I have ever taken - and I don't say that lightly. Lots of thought-provoking readings from the Bible and a broad spectrum of Christian theologians and early church Fathers; a wonderful format with great readings, good videos and awesome class discussion; AND it doesn't insult your intelligence - it's challenging and thought-provoking. I can't recommend it highly enough, especially for folks who enjoy digging a little deeper. The readings are well-chosen, and run the gamut - just a few examples are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Martin Luther, Juliann of Norwich, John Calvin, John Wesley, Vatican II and the World Council of Churches documents, Martin Luther King, Jr., and many more - both ancient and modern.

The video moderator for the course is well-known church historian and author Justo Gonzalez, but each week there is a short presentation about the topic by a theologian, pastor, or college professor of varying Christian denominations. We've had the whole spectrum of denominations represented in these talks - from Baptist to Orthodox. The focus is on the classical doctrines common to the Christian faith, however, the material definitely has a unique Wesleyan flavor.

[GraceSeeker]

Don't get me wrong, though. IIRC, The Pursuit of Holiness is a good book.

My frustration stems from my perception that there seems to be a lack of Wesleyan resources out there, and I'm having a hard time discovering what is distinctly "Wesleyan". I'd like to see us work on that in Wesley's Parish, but I don't really know how to go about it. I have no idea what are some good books from a Wesleyan perspective.

I just got back from the bookstore and went to the Christian section: there were a lot of Bibles, a lot of Left Behind books, a lot of books by TBNers, a lot of evangelical books, a fair amount of Catholic books, and a few liberal theology books. They even had volume one of the Philokalia. I didn't see a single book that I could identify as being about Wesleyan theology, or written by a Wesleyan, or about John or Charles Wesley. Maybe there were some there, and I couldn't identify them. I don't know.:sigh:

I hear that. When I was in seminary I worked at a large Christian bookstore (Zondervan's, now called Family Christian Stores). I was always frustrated by our selection, and we were the 2nd largest Zondervan store in the country with 2 seminaries in our backyard, yet we carried mostly what I would call "pop culture" Christian books. Why? Well, because we were still a business and we had to sell what actually sold, not just what we wished people would read.

Fortunately, they would let us order any book we personally wanted place it on the shelf as well. My friends and I who were seminaries often took advantage of that to try to stock our shelves with some deeper selections from time to time, but if we didn't point them out to people they would just sit there, because that isn't what most people are into.

Even take our own WP book club here. I recommended that we might read Wesley's "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection", but the majority preferred something different. That's OK. I'm glad I read it. It wasn't Wesleyan, and it fits the category of "pop" book as well. But it was a good book and I would recommend it to others. I expect it to become a Christian classic, if it is not already considered as such by many.

But there are good books out there (of which I would include Bridges' book even if it isn't Wesleyan) from a Wesleyan perspective. Depending where you live, you may wish to check out a Cokesbury bookstore rather than just any Christian bookstore, and though they carry all types of books as well, they will likely have a better selection of Wesleyan authors. You might also get on the mailing lists for catalogs from Discipleship Resources and the Upper Room (it's more than just a prayer chapel and devotional guide), that's where I found Wrestling with Grace (http://www.upperroom.org/bookstore/description.asp?item_id=107690&ep_id=120 (http://www.upperroom.org/bookstore/description.asp?item_id=107690&ep_id=120)) which might make a good read for our next book club book if people are still interested in that sort of thing.

[cristianna]

Thanks for those suggestions, cristianna. I think I'm going to be spending some time over at ccel.

As far as the amazon books are concerned, have you read any of them? Which ones are good. There are some very tempting sounding titles there. How about "John Wesley: Holiness of Heart and Life?" I think I've seen that before. Maybe it's in the church library. Sounds like a good one :)

I have enjoyed reading ccel, and I really think you will too.

As far as books reading is not a hobby of mine and even the bible can be a struggle if I don't keep up with it daily. Obviously I haven't read any of the books although I look at them frequently. Holiness of Heart and Life is one I've heard good things about and do plan to read one day.

Maybe you can read a few and post your thoughts to jump start my "read some day" list. :thumbsup:

[MoeSzyslak]

but it seems that few share this kind of desire to seek the deeper mysteries of God in a similar way that I do.


I can relate to your frustation here. Sometimes I feel the same way. I've always been a pretty introverted person though, so it's not that strange for me to feel alone on that one. (then again I did take a vow of silence and lock myself in a cell for awhile.) So I guess I have had some monastic training in pursuing some of these things alone. So it is somewhat natural to me.

I just learned there is a bookstore a few towns away called "Cokesbury". They have a great Wesleyan selection. They have a website too: http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/home.aspx

I've been like a kid in a candy store. I started with "The theology of John Wesly, Holy Love and the shape of Grace." It's like a Wesleyan summary on everything. As I'm reading it, I'm taking note of the subjects that interest me the most. Then I'll go and dive into greater detail on those subjects.


There was a thread a short while back, that was a vote if we wanted a 'debate' section here in WP. I'm guessing it came up 'no."?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Actually, we decided we didn't need any specific rules or subforum for debate. People can debate here... but I think most of us are too laid back. :D And, when debate does happen one almost doesn't notice because IMHO we respect and are willing to consider other perspectives.

[Joykins]

My husband went on some kind of spree at that Cokesbury store recently. Watch out, we now have one of those books of discipline with the leather binding and gilded pages ^_^

[cristianna]

I can relate to your frustation here. Sometimes I feel the same way. I've always been a pretty introverted person though, so it's not that strange for me to feel alone on that one. (then again I did take a vow of silence and lock myself in a cell for awhile.) So I guess I have had some monastic training in pursuing some of these things alone. So it is somewhat natural to me.

I just learned there is a bookstore a few towns away called "Cokesbury". They have a great Wesleyan selection. They have a website too: http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/home.aspx

I've been like a kid in a candy store. I started with "The theology of John Wesly, Holy Love and the shape of Grace." It's like a Wesleyan summary on everything. As I'm reading it, I'm taking note of the subjects that interest me the most. Then I'll go and dive into greater detail on those subjects.


There was a thread a short while back, that was a vote if we wanted a 'debate' section here in WP. I'm guessing it came up 'no."?

Oh yes, please tell us what you think of that book when you're done. And yes, I have to agree with Red. ^_^

My husband went on some kind of spree at that Cokesbury store recently. Watch out, we now have one of those books of discipline with the leather binding and gilded pages ^_^

How fascinating! How are they?

[tpony298]

well, I am Church of God, Wesleyian teaching. every since I was a child I considered my self Wesleyian
But to post the answer to your questions would be very complicated and could lead to a debate. We all have minister to ask theheave questions of....don't mean to be offencive. Love you all Pony

[GraceSeeker]

My husband went on some kind of spree at that Cokesbury store recently. Watch out, we now have one of those books of discipline with the leather binding and gilded pages ^_^
You know it will be out of date in less than a month? General Conference is meeting at the end of April and the whole thing gets re-written then and once again every four years.

[MoeSzyslak]

You know it will be out of date in less than a month?


Mine won't. I'm starting a spin-off Church. The True Methodist Believers of the 2004 Book Of Discipline. You better get in on the ground level now..:D

[GraceSeeker]

Mine won't. I'm starting a spin-off Church. The True Methodist Believers of the 2004 Book Of Discipline. You better get in on the ground level now..:D

Now, if you had only said 1904, you might have a new member. :thumbsup:

[tpony298]

Hi...for the answer to the question....

Here is some interesting reading by the man himself.

love, Pony

http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/character/

[tpony298]

looking for books on John Wesley? this is a page with lists of sites for books. Love, Joyce

http://books.google.com/books?q=john+wesley+methodist&source=citation&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=bottom-3results&hl=en

[tpony298]

Dear Speculative, I am so sorry, I think
I missinterperated your question,and I flooded you with stuff you probably already know.

I think now you were asking "what is the purpose of the group?" What do we do here? Why do we come here?

I would like to tell you my reasons:

The people are gentle, I never see any "YELLING". Some offer daily bible studies. Some beef up the fellowship with good wishes and joy.

Some pray. we all do what we do best to follow the westleyian creed.

And it makes it so nice to be free to confess our shortcome with out fear of being condemed.

I hope you will give us your best service to the Lord. Make us laugh,, give us those treasures you find in the scriptures, make us search ourselves so we can also serve God to our fullest.

It was nice to hear from you....love, pony

[Speculative]

tpony--yes I was asking about this specific subforum--however, I'm always open to learning more about Wesley and the holiness movement, as I have quite neglected proper study of it, so I do appreciate your input.

God Bless :)

[EecoErin]

My computer isn't letting me read pages 3 and 4 for some reason, so I hope I haven't missed too much.

Speculative, I take you up on your offer - if it was an offer and still stands - to discuss the reconciling movement. I just recently went to my first reconciling ministry service.

And I'd also be interested in discussing any of the Wesley brothers' hymns, as someone on the first page suggested...

:cool:

I also have a thought about why this isn't a forum that's more lively or contentious, however you want to put it. Bear in mind I haven't been here long. But in the communities I know in person (not online), most Methodists aren't interested in hammering out details of doctrines or getting things "right," if there can be such a categorization of theological beliefs. There is a de-emphasis on doctrine, and an emphasis on the greatest commandments put into action within the congregation, family, community, and world. And that emphasis is a nice contrast withthe contention one can find so easily in Christian circles.

So that attitude doesn't lead to much heated debate. We leave that for General Conferences and such ;)

May y'all open your eyes to God's blessings today.
:amen:

[cristianna]

Welcome EecoErin! :wave:

[Speculative]

My computer isn't letting me read pages 3 and 4 for some reason, so I hope I haven't missed too much.
Oh No! That's where all the good stuff was! ;)

Speculative, I take you up on your offer - if it was an offer and still stands - to discuss the reconciling movement. I just recently went to my first reconciling ministry service.What is a reconciling ministry service?

[EecoErin]

Thanks, Cristianna!

Speculatvie, I don't know if I'm using the right terminology, but a reconciling ministry service is a service put on by the reconciling ministry! :) I will look for a link --- here we go --- www dot rmnetwork dot org (I can't post links yet).

[tpony298]

I am sorry, I went to the link and didn't know what to look for. What is a reconciling ministry service.. Pony

[EecoErin]

Reconciling Ministry is one of the organized voices for those who are not heterosexual. They support Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender etc. as members of the church and push for them to be accepted as ordained ministers. The service I went to was pretty much like any other UM service one might attend, but some of the message was about how "ALL means ALL" and ALL are invited to the table of Christ.

(Don't know if you had heard of this, but the issue was particularly sore because a pastor recently barred a person from membership in a congregation because the person was not heterosexual. Then a bishop fired that pastor. And a big to-do at the recent Conference was to decide just what powers a pastor has in regards to blocking people from membership. They decided to keep the powers as they are - and my basic understanding is that a pastor can block whoever, without much accountability.)

One of the coolest things I've ever seen was also during the service - an entire sermonette delivered by hearing disabled person, given ENTIRELY in sign language! No spoken words! It was beautiful and powerful, even though my brain didn't understand the details of what was being stated. But I'm convinced that another part of me understood.

The service I went to was a celebration of diversity, as you can tell.

[cristianna]

One of the coolest things I've ever seen was also during the service - an entire sermonette delivered by hearing disabled person, given ENTIRELY in sign language! No spoken words! It was beautiful and powerful, even though my brain didn't understand the details of what was being stated. But I'm convinced that another part of me understood.

The service I went to was a celebration of diversity, as you can tell.


How very cool! We had a signer who always interpretted for everything including our music (we actually had deaf members who utilized this wonderful tool). I was always blown away by the interpretation of the songs.

[Speculative]

Reconciling Ministry is one of the organized voices for those who are not heterosexual. They support Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender etc. as members of the church and push for them to be accepted as ordained ministers. The service I went to was pretty much like any other UM service one might attend, but some of the message was about how "ALL means ALL" and ALL are invited to the table of Christ.

(Don't know if you had heard of this, but the issue was particularly sore because a pastor recently barred a person from membership in a congregation because the person was not heterosexual. Then a bishop fired that pastor. And a big to-do at the recent Conference was to decide just what powers a pastor has in regards to blocking people from membership. They decided to keep the powers as they are - and my basic understanding is that a pastor can block whoever, without much accountability.)

One of the coolest things I've ever seen was also during the service - an entire sermonette delivered by hearing disabled person, given ENTIRELY in sign language! No spoken words! It was beautiful and powerful, even though my brain didn't understand the details of what was being stated. But I'm convinced that another part of me understood.

The service I went to was a celebration of diversity, as you can tell.Well, I was aware of this, but I was unaware that our liturgy was being branded. I was a member of our church both before and after joining the network and haven't noticed a difference in the church service.

Of course we were pretty much with the program before making it official. The only difference now is that we use the RM logo on our literature and pay membership fees to the network.

[tpony298]

Oh, ok I understand. Back in the late 90's (I'm not sure of the dates) but I remember a discussion on just this subject. I thought the UMC( in whole) accepted the policy of ordaining non-heterosexual Christians.
Well when ever it happened, I am glad. pony

[Speculative]

Oh, ok I understand. Back in the late 90's (I'm not sure of the dates) but I remember a discussion on just this subject. I thought the UMC( in whole) accepted the policy of ordaining non-heterosexual Christians.
Well when ever it happened, I am glad. pony
I think the current official policy is that LGBT pastors can be ordained, but they must be celibate. I could be wrong on this, but I think this is the policy.

[EecoErin]

No practicing non-heterosexuals are ordained. At least not regularly. At the Reconciling Ministries service I went to, a woman was recognized as an 'honorary' ordainee, because she had been kicked out of the official Methodist ordination process for being non-hetero. So she can't be ordained (and I note that this is ordination by people, not by God necessarily), as policies stand currently.

[tpony298]

I think the current official policy is that LGBT pastors can be ordained, but they must be celibate. I could be wrong on this, but I think this is the policy.

Both were celebate( both men). One did adopt a child from Viet Naum. and we all hung out with an unmarried AME Episcable minister.

Pony

[Izdaari]

What I'd like to see is more or less a traditional, moderate Anglican liturgical style mixed with Wesleyan emphasis on social works and Holiness. I'd like to see a church that held to taught traditional beliefs from a Wesleyan standpoint, but didn't have some of the harsher, judgmental edges that I see in a lot of the popular modern evangelical movements.
If I found a church like that, I could easily be a Methodist. In fact, but for the style of services (P&W band instead of Anglican-style liturgy) and the addition of the charismatic stuff, my own Assemblies of God church matches it. But then AG does have Methodist roots, so maybe that's not too surprising.

For me personally, the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesleyan_Quadrilateral) has been a big help in understanding the Bible.

[GraceSeeker]

Oh, ok I understand. Back in the late 90's (I'm not sure of the dates) but I remember a discussion on just this subject. I thought the UMC( in whole) accepted the policy of ordaining non-heterosexual Christians.
Well when ever it happened, I am glad. pony

I think the current official policy is that LGBT pastors can be ordained, but they must be celibate. I could be wrong on this, but I think this is the policy.

No practicing non-heterosexuals are ordained. At least not regularly. At the Reconciling Ministries service I went to, a woman was recognized as an 'honorary' ordainee, because she had been kicked out of the official Methodist ordination process for being non-hetero. So she can't be ordained (and I note that this is ordination by people, not by God necessarily), as policies stand currently.


The official policy of the UMC with regard to pastors, affirmed and retained by the recent General Conference, is that all pastors, regardless of sexual orientation, are to practice celibacy in singleness and fidelity in marriage. As the United Methodist Church does not recognize the validity of homosexual marriages it would find as violating church law any non-heterosexual union be it in a civil or religious ceremony, even where it might be valid under state law. Nor are United Methodist pastors permitted to officiate at such services, nor even provide the semblenance of having done so. This has been the United Methodist stand for the entire 40 years existence of the denomination. But, the United Methodist Church is open to persons of any and all sexual orientations to be both members and ordained within the church, as long as the above rules are kept.

[tpony298]

I am glad you explained that. It gives me an answer to questions I recieve about "church policy" from non-believers who are really looking for an excuse to not go to church. You know "like what is your church's view on..............."

Pony

[Speculative]

The official policy of the UMC with regard to pastors, affirmed and retained by the recent General Conference, is that all pastors, regardless of sexual orientation, are to practice celibacy in singleness and fidelity in marriage. As the United Methodist Church does not recognize the validity of homosexual marriages it would find as violating church law any non-heterosexual union be it in a civil or religious ceremony, even where it might be valid under state law. Nor are United Methodist pastors permitted to officiate at such services, nor even provide the semblenance of having done so. This has been the United Methodist stand for the entire 40 years existence of the denomination. But, the United Methodist Church is open to persons of any and all sexual orientations to be both members and ordained within the church, as long as the above rules are kept.
Okay, thanks. That's what I thought.

[EecoErin]

That is a little nuanced from my impression. Thank you.