Question: What will the final test be before Y'shua returns

[Lebesgue]

Having been SDA before I became a Messianic, I was taught that Shabbat would be the final test.

Hmmmmmm my Bible isn't really clear on that, only that Shabbat IS one of the commandments.

I don't really know and I think I'll just trust G-d on this one. Maybe Shabbat could be part of it maybe not?
Maybe Y'shua and His Gospel and what you will do with it?

Maybe G-d hasn't seen fit to tell us exactly what it is and we should just trust Him on this one?

What do you think?

G-d Bless.


Shalom,


Lebesgue

[ChavaK]

Having been SDA before I became a Messianic, I was taught that Shabbat would be the final test.

Hmmmmmm my Bible isn't really clear on that, only that Shabbat IS one of the commandments.

I don't really know and I think I'll just trust G-d on this one. Maybe Shabbat could be part of it maybe not?
Maybe Y'shua and His Gospel and what you will do with it?

Maybe G-d hasn't seen fit to tell us exactly what it is and we should just trust Him on this one?

What do you think?
I don't get the question....what "final test"?
Can you explain it for us non-messianic/non-SDA types? :)

[Lebesgue]

I don't get the question....what "final test"?
Can you explain it for us non-messianic/non-SDA types? :)

Sorry, Chava.

It's the tribulation that will happen before just Messiah Y'shua returns.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[Henaynei]

those who have trained themselves in the obedience and discipline that keeping the commandments requires will be better equipped to handle persecution when it comes than those who have been lax and made excuses for their "freedom"

also Shabbat is a refuge in time and those who know how to access this refuge will have better access to personal and spiritual Shalom than those who have never cultivated this habit/skill....

It has been my experience that the trials for each of us are unique to each of us and thus I think the "final test" will also largely be unique to each of us....

[Lebesgue]

those who have trained themselves in the obedience and discipline that keeping the commandments requires will be better equipped to handle persecution when it comes than those who have been lax and made excuses for their "freedom"

also Shabbat is a refuge in time and those who know how to access this refuge will have better access to personal and spiritual Shalom than those who have never cultivated this habit/skill....

It has been my experience that the trials for each of us are unique to each of us and thus I think the "final test" will also largely be unique to each of us....

Those are really good points, Henaynei.

Todah!

Shabbat Shalom,

Lebesgue

[ChavaK]

Sorry, Chava.

It's the tribulation that will happen before just Messiah Y'shua returns.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Thanks! :)

[Lulav]

Lebesgue, where are you? You haven't been around for over a week, hope everything is OK and you are getting ready to celebrate!

[Lebesgue]

Lebesgue, where are you? You haven't been around for over a week, hope everything is OK and you are getting ready to celebrate!

I'm back.

I've been faithfully observing Pesach this week.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

[visionary]

It will be the seven last plagues and the one world rule.

[A_Pioneer]

Having been SDA before I became a Messianic, I was taught that Shabbat would be the final test.

Hmmmmmm my Bible isn't really clear on that, only that Shabbat IS one of the commandments.

I don't really know and I think I'll just trust G-d on this one. Maybe Shabbat could be part of it maybe not?
Maybe Y'shua and His Gospel and what you will do with it?

Maybe G-d hasn't seen fit to tell us exactly what it is and we should just trust Him on this one?

What do you think?

G-d Bless.


Shalom,


Lebesgue
The Jews have a song "Just One Shabbat" so they seem to believe that when everyone does the Sabbath just once 'correctly' messiah shall come.

SOOO!

Shalom & Just One Shabbat.

[Tishri1]

I see what you mean and yes I agree lots of this is about shabbat

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2056:1-8;&version=31;

Isaiah 56

Salvation for Others

1 This is what the LORD says:
"Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this,
the man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain,
"I am only a dry tree."
4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."
8 The Sovereign LORD declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
"I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered."

[HaReb]

Y'ehua told us, plainly, when he would return:

When Yerushalayim can say baruch haba bashem Adonai. Until the City can say that, and mean it, according to Y'shua, he will NOT return!

Given that it is suggested that the City is again to be divided (to appease G_d's enemies), this cannot be in the immediate future - though of course, it depends on what he meant by the 'City'.

Did he mean the whole (Jewish) people of Yerushalayim at any one time, or the 12 tribes or the faithful, believing remnant, or just those living in the City, of whatever nationality?

[Lulav]

Y'ehua told us, plainly, when he would return:

When Yerushalayim can say baruch haba bashem Adonai. Until the City can say that, and mean it, according to Y'shua, he will NOT return!

Given that it is suggested that the City is again to be divided (to appease G_d's enemies), this cannot be in the immediate future - though of course, it depends on what he meant by the 'City'.

Did he mean the whole (Jewish) people of Yerushalayim at any one time, or the 12 tribes or the faithful, believing remnant, or just those living in the City, of whatever nationality?

I totally agree, this is my understanding of his return, and also why I believe that there is such Jewish persecution still going on today. I could understand it leading up to messiah coming the first time but I couldn't understand it after this, so I asked the L-RD and that is what he told me. HaSatan would still persecute the 'woman who brought forth the child' so that they would never collectively ( or by Sanhedrin degree , which is who I think Yeshua was speaking of since it is in their power to announced the king) say Baruch haba B'Shem Adonai. They said this almost 2000 years ago, but it was only the common people, the Sanhedrin when they heard it wanted him killed so the people would stop listening to him and listen to them once again, it was about power.

But, you ( hasatan) keep the Jews from knowing Messiah, you keep them from seeing he came and asking for him again, and thus you keep yourself from meeting your destiny. Simple really, but so diabolical, especially using the gentile believers as a huge part of this whole scheme.

[kivi]

I totally agree, this is my understanding of his return, and also why I believe that there is such Jewish persecution still going on today. I could understand it leading up to messiah coming the first time but I couldn't understand it after this, so I asked the L-RD and that is what he told me. HaSatan would still persecute the 'woman who brought forth the child' so that they would never collectively ( or by Sanhedrin degree , which is who I think Yeshua was speaking of since it is in their power to announced the king) say Baruch haba B'Shem Adonai. They said this almost 2000 years ago, but it was only the common people, the Sanhedrin when they heard it wanted him killed so the people would stop listening to him and listen to them once again, it was about power.

But, you ( hasatan) keep the Jews from knowing Messiah, you keep them from seeing he came and asking for him again, and thus you keep yourself from meeting your destiny. Simple really, but so diabolical, especially using the gentile believers as a huge part of this whole scheme.
According to Torah, every generation has potential messiahs, the question is that no generation, as of yet, has merited the messiah they have. It is noted that Moshaich will Come when every Jew celebrates Shabbas according to Torah Law or every Jew fails to celebrate Shabbas. Since there is no longer a Temple and Temple offering [korban], Shabbas is the principle channel of holiness available to Mankind. When either that channel is fully open or fully shut, G-d will intervene

[kivi]

According to Torah, every generation has potential messiahs, the question is that no generation, as of yet, has merited the messiah they have. It is noted that Moshaich will Come when every Jew celebrates Shabbas according to Torah Law or every Jew fails to celebrate Shabbas. Since there is no longer a Temple and Temple offering [korban], Shabbas is the principle channel of holiness available to Mankind. When either that channel is fully open or fully shut, G-d will intervene
It is sad that some Christians still think of Judaism and Torah as agents of the devil. Personally, I'll know that Moshiach is possible when Chirstianity sees Judaism and Torah as legitmate, authentic and G-d supported spiritual expressions of His Desire.

[HaReb]

It is noted that Moshaich will Come when every Jew celebrates Shabbas according to Torah Law or every Jew fails to celebrate Shabbas


Scripture support for this application of two opposites, please?

[visionary]

It is sad that some Christians still think of Judaism and Torah as agents of the devil. Personally, I'll know that Moshiach is possible when Chirstianity sees Judaism and Torah as legitmate, authentic and G-d supported spiritual expressions of His Desire.How true...:amen: You nailed it:thumbsup: I wish the whole world could see this... but as you said the agents of the devil will blind the world and all that will remain will be the remnant.

[kivi]

How true...:amen: You nailed it:thumbsup: I wish the whole world could see this... but as you said the agents of the devil will blind the world and all that will remain will be the remnant.
There is a difference between Judaism and Christianity in the matter of 'the devil'. In Judaism, S'Tan is an angel like every other angel, he has no free will and only operates through the directives of his Creator, G-d, doing G-d's will perfectly. The idea of an angel in rebellion against G-d is unthinkable in Judaism. So, for Judaism, there are no agents of the devil. I know that this is not the case for Christianity. I point this out to decrease confusion and hurt feelings, not to put any one down, so that it is noted that while the same word might be used, it does not mean the same thing. Only in that way can we speak to each other honestly and clearly.

[kivi]

Scripture support for this application of two opposites, please?
It should be noted that the orthodox Jewish definition of scripture is not the same as the messianic definition. How do you want to proceed?

[Lulav]

According to Torah, every generation has potential messiahs, the question is that no generation, as of yet, has merited the messiah they have. It is noted that Moshaich will Come when every Jew celebrates Shabbas according to Torah Law or every Jew fails to celebrate Shabbas. Since there is no longer a Temple and Temple offering [korban], Shabbas is the principle channel of holiness available to Mankind. When either that channel is fully open or fully shut, G-d will intervene Please cite me where Torah speaks of every generation having a potential Moshiach. You are saying that we must merit something that will save us, it we can merit it what need have we for it?

It is sad that some Christians still think of Judaism and Torah as agents of the devil. Personally, I'll know that Moshiach is possible when Chirstianity sees Judaism and Torah as legitmate, authentic and G-d supported spiritual expressions of His Desire. Are you calling me a Christian? Are you saying I think Judaism and Torah are agents of the devil? I sure hope not, but that is what it seems you are saying.

[Lulav]

There is a difference between Judaism and Christianity in the matter of 'the devil'. In Judaism, S'Tan is an angel like every other angel, he has no free will and only operates through the directives of his Creator, G-d, doing G-d's will perfectly. The idea of an angel in rebellion against G-d is unthinkable in Judaism. So, for Judaism, there are no agents of the devil. I know that this is not the case for Christianity. I point this out to decrease confusion and hurt feelings, not to put any one down, so that it is noted that while the same word might be used, it does not mean the same thing. Only in that way can we speak to each other honestly and clearly. He is not described in tenack as 'any other angel', but in fact a very powerful one, one who was head of all others, one who accuses man before G-d, not all do this , he is powerful , look what he did to Job, yes, I know it was given permission to but still powerful stuff, he is a very powerful keruv. Some believe he was the original keruv guarding the throne of HaShem and was replaced at his disobedience with two that we have depicted on the Ark of the Covenant. As well, we believe more information about him and his lengthening of leash during these past thousand years, has been given to us , revealed to us by HaShem. If he has no free will how did he rise up in rebellion against HaShem? ( Isaiah 14)

It should be noted that the orthodox Jewish definition of scripture is not the same as the messianic definition. How do you want to proceed? So are you saying this information is NOT in Torah but in the Talmud or Mishnah Torah?

[kivi]

He is not described in tenack as 'any other angel', but in fact a very powerful one, one who was head of all others, one who accuses man before G-d, not all do this , he is powerful , look what he did to Job, yes, I know it was given permission to but still powerful stuff, he is a very powerful keruv. Some believe he was the original keruv guarding the throne of HaShem and was replaced at his disobedience with two that we have depicted on the Ark of the Covenant. As well, we believe more information about him and his lengthening of leash during these past thousand years, has been given to us , revealed to us by HaShem. If he has no free will how did he rise up in rebellion against HaShem? ( Isaiah 14)

So are you saying this information is NOT in Torah but in the Talmud or Mishnah Torah?
All angels are only as powerful as G-d makes them. Each has his special task given to him by G-d. In Job, it is very clear that S'Tan only operates within the 'charge' of G-d and not on his own will, of which he has none. I know that Christianity has texts that Judaism does not recognize. As we have scriptures that Christianity does not recognize. I respect your right to your scriptures. I hope you respect our right to ours. I am merely sharing how Judaism operates. Judaism does not have a 'Devil' of independent will in rebellion against G-d.

Isaiah 14, in the Prophetic/Pharisaic/Rabbinic Tradition, is totally and exclusively about the King of Babylon as Isaiah 14:4 says: "You will recite this parable about the King of Babylon." [Stone Edition of the ArtScroll English Translation of the Tanach].

As I noted, the Jewish definition of scriptures is different than the Christian definition. If I am limited by the Christian definition, then I can not have integrity as to my own religious tradition. Any more than you could have to your religious tradition if you were forced to go be my definition of what is and is not the Christian scriptures. According to the Jewish definition of Torah, the Talmud is part of the Torah. The Mishnah is part of the Talmud.

[HaReb]

It should be noted that the orthodox Jewish definition of scripture is not the same as the messianic definition. How do you want to proceed?

'Carefully' might be a good answer.

Please tell me the basis for the claim you have made, in the Tanach or in the 'Bible' as a whole. Easy enough to do, I would have thought, for such a bold claim!

Were I to use commentaries I could 'prove' almost anything - it is the plain, simple Word of G_d in the Tanach or in the 'Bible' that I am asking about - not what man has added by way of well thought through, and well intended, definitions or guidance in spiritual or moral issues.

[Lulav]

I will reply within your post to show what I am answering. OK? :) The Jewish idea of a messiah is not a savior.

When did this change? Did not even Jacob prophecy, O L-RD I wait for your Salvation?

All of the events Moshaich is involved in will directly be the result of G-d's own intervention.

Please explain what you mean by 'intervention' as I believe that HaShem has always been active with his creation and especially us, his chosen people, even though we may not always see. it.

However, he will be a great prophet, just one 'step' down from Moses,

One step down? Is it not written:

A prophet will the L-RD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou didst desire of the L-RD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: 'Let me not hear again the voice of the L-RD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'And the L-RD said unto me: 'They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. D'varim 18:15-18

Yeshua said

John 5:31-4731 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


and he will be the leader of the Nation of Israel

Physical or Spiritual?

and during his reign,

The Moschiach I believe in is in accord with Isaiah 9:7
9:7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the L-RD of hosts will perform this.


the Temple will be re-built,
HaShem never even wanted a temple, and he promised to re set up the tabernacle, the mishkan of David. We believe that the true Temple was rebuilt in three days by G-d himself.

all of the Jews will return to the Land of Israel,

Amein, in that day

he will rule as king over a Torah True govt, all of Mankind will at peace and recognize G-d as creator and ruler of the Universe.

This is still to come, we must not limit G-d to our human understanding should we? Proverbs 3:5-6

And no, I am not saying that. How could I know that? I am only talking about my own wishes and hopes. I do wish that people would stop thinking 1/ of Judaism as defective or 2/ the current state of Judaism which believes that Moshiach has not yet come is the result of a lacking or a failure or an error. I do wish that people would see Judaism as a legitimate, sufficient, G-d directed spiritual expression.

I don't believe that Judaism is defective, just missing some things. :) I don't believe it is error or failure but G-d ordained.
Amein

All angels are only as powerful as G-d makes them. Each has his special task given to him by G-d. In Job, it is very clear that S'Tan only operates within the 'charge' of G-d and not on his own will, of which he has none. I know that Christianity has texts that Judaism does not recognize. As we have scriptures that Christianity does not recognize. I respect your right to your scriptures. I hope you respect our right to ours. I am merely sharing how Judaism operates. Judaism does not have a 'Devil' of independent will in rebellion against G-d.

Isaiah 14, in the Prophetic/Pharisaic/Rabbinic Tradition, is totally and exclusively about the King of Babylon as Isaiah 14:4 says: "You will recite this parable about the King of Babylon." [Stone Edition of the ArtScroll English Translation of the Tanach].

As I noted, the Jewish definition of scriptures is different than the Christian definition. If I am limited by the Christian definition, then I can not have integrity as to my own religious tradition. Any more than you could have to your religious tradition if you were forced to go be my definition of what is and is not the Christian scriptures. According to the Jewish definition of Torah, the Talmud is part of the Torah. The Mishnah is part of the Talmud.

[kivi]

'Carefully' might be a good answer.

Please tell me the basis for the claim you have made, in the Tanach or in the 'Bible' as a whole. Easy enough to do, I would have thought, for such a bold claim!

Were I to use commentaries I could 'prove' almost anything - it is the plain, simple Word of G_d in the Tanach or in the 'Bible' that I am asking about - not what man has added by way of well thought through, and well intended, definitions or guidance in spiritual or moral issues.
I know that it is a common claim on the part of non-Observant people that the writings published after the Tanach in the Talmud are: "what man has added". Judaism claims that is not true. We believe that the Tanach is as much a part of the Torah as the Chumash. We believe that only part of the Torah was written down and published in the 1st 5 Books of Moses. We believe that most of the Torah was preserved from generation to generation through an oral and memorized process and that this process was the preferred method of information retention and retrieval until the invention of the printing press. We believe that publication of the Oral Torah was forced by the relentless efforts of the Roman to destroy the Jewish people through specific attacks murderous against the 'memorizers'. So, we reject as non-true that the Talmud is merely: "well thought through, and well intended, definitions or guidance in spiritual or moral issues." When Rabbis and other people are cited as the source of a particular mitzvah and its application, they are not being referred as the creators of that mitzvah but the transmitters of that mitzvah from within the Prophetic/Rabbinic Tradition all the way back to Mt Sinai. The term 'commentaries' are mis-leading. When Rashi or the Rambam teach about a particular mitzvah, they are passing on that practice as taught to them by their teachers and those teachers are passing on what their teachers taught, all the way back to Moses. When the Talmud is teaching the disagreements between two Rabbis, what it is doing is showing how one of the Rabbis is passing on an over-arching principle and the other Rabbi is passing on a particular incident of the same. The purpose is always for consensus and harmony. So, I can not limit myself to just the Tanach. To do so would be to amputate a significant and necessary part of my religious Tradition and practice.

[HaReb]

Kivi,

You are not willing to interact with the generally accepted Scriptures on this thread and prefer, instead, your own choice of what actually constitutes 'Scripture'.

It makes an absolute nonsense of what you, and we, are saying if there is nothing, or very little, in common between us (according to you, that is). You make rash assumptions and refuse to acknowledge the very essence of our faith, so I'm very confused as to the reason you choose to be here. :)

[visionary]

All angels are only as powerful as G-d makes them. Each has his special task given to him by G-d. In Job, it is very clear that S'Tan only operates within the 'charge' of G-d and not on his own will, of which he has none. I know that Christianity has texts that Judaism does not recognize. As we have scriptures that Christianity does not recognize. I respect your right to your scriptures. I hope you respect our right to ours. I am merely sharing how Judaism operates. Judaism does not have a 'Devil' of independent will in rebellion against G-d.

Isaiah 14, in the Prophetic/Pharisaic/Rabbinic Tradition, is totally and exclusively about the King of Babylon as Isaiah 14:4 says: "You will recite this parable about the King of Babylon." [Stone Edition of the ArtScroll English Translation of the Tanach].

As I noted, the Jewish definition of scriptures is different than the Christian definition. If I am limited by the Christian definition, then I can not have integrity as to my own religious tradition. Any more than you could have to your religious tradition if you were forced to go be my definition of what is and is not the Christian scriptures. According to the Jewish definition of Torah, the Talmud is part of the Torah. The Mishnah is part of the Talmud.Judaism has the Book of Enoch which Jude was quoting from. That book's insight into the deviousness of wicked angels and their world is brought forth like no other book.

[kivi]

Judaism has the Book of Enoch which Jude was quoting from. That book's insight into the deviousness of wicked angels and their world is brought forth like no other book.
I am sorry, but I went to the index of my Chumash and could not find the Book of Enock, so I went to my copy of the KJV and also could not find an Enock. Could you help me in this matter?

[kivi]

Kivi,

You are not willing to interact with the generally accepted Scriptures on this thread and prefer, instead, your own choice of what actually constitutes 'Scripture'.

It makes an absolute nonsense of what you, and we, are saying if there is nothing, or very little, in common between us (according to you, that is). You make rash assumptions and refuse to acknowledge the very essence of our faith, so I'm very confused as to the reason you choose to be here. :)
I am merely reporting the standard Jewish 'take' on the matter. It is different than the Christian 'take'. I would think that it would be a good thing to lay the two side by side so that confusion and error could be reduced about what each believes. Often, when we talk to each other, we are really talking 'be-sides' each other. To be honest, respectful and patiend I hope are virtues, especially in such an important area. I notice you allow other observant Jews to participate, I would hope you would allow myself.

[Lulav]

I am merely reporting the standard Jewish 'take' on the matter. It is different than the Christian 'take'. I would think that it would be a good thing to lay the two side by side so that confusion and error could be reduced about what each believes. Often, when we talk to each other, we are really talking 'be-sides' each other. To be honest, respectful and patiend I hope are virtues, especially in such an important area. I notice you allow other observant Jews to participate, I would hope you would allow myself. While that is true, I haven't found one that likes to debate scripture yet, they mostly like to talk about halacha, so this is refreshing albeit will take some time to get comfortable with each other. I welcome your imput. We should lay out some ground rules though, if someone is speaking of anything recorded, at any time it should be posted or a link given to read so everyone can at least be on the same page with what is being discussed, agreed?

[HaReb]

Kivi - I have no wish to stop you being on this thread(not that I could, anyway) but I did question as to why you choose to be here as your beliefs are diametrically opposed to the Messianic emphases of the faith we hold.

I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)

[visionary]

Back to OP.... Let's face facts... When the Lord returns ... We will all have to face Him in His Holy Presence... Who can stand??? That is the single biggest Biblical question ever asked.


It should be the hope of all believers to be able to stand in that day and say “this is my God".

Here is a question, that every believer should place in their heart. “Will I be able to stand before God?”

Nahum 1:6 Who can stand before his indigination? and who can abide in the fireceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

[ChavaK]

but I did question as to why you choose to be here as your beliefs are diametrically opposed to the Messianic emphases of the faith we hold.
This is true for all of us non-Messianic Jews that post here ;)
[/quote]
I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)[/quote]

We've all been asked the same question, and answered it many
times before. I am sure kivi has many of the same reasons.
:wave:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

those who have trained themselves in the obedience and discipline that keeping the commandments requires will be better equipped to handle persecution when it comes than those who have been lax and made excuses for their "freedom"

also Shabbat is a refuge in time and those who know how to access this refuge will have better access to personal and spiritual Shalom than those who have never cultivated this habit/skill....

It has been my experience that the trials for each of us are unique to each of us and thus I think the "final test" will also largely be unique to each of us....
Like someone else said "good points"....
and a footnote of sorts:
why ask about a 'final test' ? when the first test is not passed yet?

[Talmidah]

This is true for all of us non-Messianic Jews that post here ;)

I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)

We've all been asked the same question, and answered it many
times before. I am sure kivi has many of the same reasons.
:wave:

:thumbsup:

[ChavaK]

While that is true, I haven't found one that likes to debate scripture yet, they mostly like to talk about halacha,

We don't as a rule because we do not have free reign to do so.
Even in a debate area we are limited to what we can say.

People object when we use Oral Law, but expect us to accept
arguements from the NT (and yes I understand this is a
Christian Forum and that you have every right to do so).

No one wants to "debate" when they cannot freely do so
in in fear of having their posts reported, or because our
religious scriptures are not recognized.

So most of us stick to areas where we are in a "safe" zone-
ie general discussions and halachah-and save the
scriptural discussions for other forums...
:wave:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Kivi - I have no wish to stop you being on this thread(not that I could, anyway) but I did question as to why you choose to be here as your beliefs are diametrically opposed to the Messianic emphases of the faith we hold.

I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)
I am scratching my head puzzled now, peaceful at heart and fervent at Yahweh's righteousness being exalted.....
..
This is an awkward question or observation,
but it seems that the members of 'chrsendom' who visit
are much more at odds with Scripture and thus Yeshua
than non-messianic Jews who love Scripture !

[kivi]

Kivi,

You are not willing to interact with the generally accepted Scriptures on this thread and prefer, instead, your own choice of what actually constitutes 'Scripture'.

It makes an absolute nonsense of what you, and we, are saying if there is nothing, or very little, in common between us (according to you, that is). You make rash assumptions and refuse to acknowledge the very essence of our faith, so I'm very confused as to the reason you choose to be here. :)
I fully recognize your faith and I think that if I am to talk to you, I should know a lot about Christianity, it would only be correct and respectful to do so. I have studied Christianity, I have read Christian translations of the New Testament, I have my Master's in History on the Burnt Over District in upper New York state [2nd Great Awakening]. And I am always open and eager to learn more. The point I am trying to make is that there are significant differences between Christianity and Judaism that most Christians [and Jews] are not aware of. This causes a lot of upset and mis-understanding. I am hoping that by pointing out and sharing these differences, better communication and appreciation of each other is possible. I am not saying that Christianity is wrong any more than I think you are saying that Judaism is wrong. I think we are both trying to get at the truth as best we can. What I am saying is there is a lot to learn and I hope I can add my part.

[kivi]

Kivi - I have no wish to stop you being on this thread(not that I could, anyway) but I did question as to why you choose to be here as your beliefs are diametrically opposed to the Messianic emphases of the faith we hold.

I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)
Personally, I have been invovled in other places and other times in 'the fight'. It gets no one anything except more 'fight'. "I'm right, you're wrong." What a bore. We spend all of our time talking 'past' each other rather than to each other. We seldom, if ever, try to explain ourselves to each other because we are spending so much time trying to prove we are 'right'. We are hostile, defensive, touchy and suspicious. There has to be a better way. wHY DID

[kivi]

Kivi - I have no wish to stop you being on this thread(not that I could, anyway) but I did question as to why you choose to be here as your beliefs are diametrically opposed to the Messianic emphases of the faith we hold.

I was simply wondering what the attraction was, for you, to be here on that basis :)
I think it would only be correct and respectful to understand Christianity if I am going to speak to a Christian on such intimate matters such as G-d and salvation and righteous, etc. I have studied Christianity, read Christian books and theology, I have my Master's in History in the 2nd Great Awakening [the Burnt Over District in upper state New York, 1830-40]. And I am eager and happy to learn more.

We hardly ever talk with each other. We spend a lot of time speaking past each other. We try so hard to be 'right' that we seldom have time to be understanding. I have been involved, at different times and in different places, in the 'fight'. And what does it get us, Jew and Christian? More suspicion, more distrust. What a bore and what a waste of time and G-d's love. I would like to try something different. Not debate, but teaching. Not argument, but understanding. Not talking past each other, but to each other. Not withholding, but sharing.

Why am I here? Its big, its well organized and I was trying to break out of the ghetto and this is the best place I have found. I figured I would be met with suspicion. After all, we are all well trained to distrust those who are different. I hope that we can get beyond that. What do you say?

[ChavaK]

Personally, I have been invovled in other places and other times in 'the fight'. It gets no one anything except more 'fight'. "I'm right, you're wrong." What a bore. We spend all of our time talking 'past' each other rather than to each other. We seldom, if ever, try to explain ourselves to each other because we are spending so much time trying to prove we are 'right'. We are hostile, defensive, touchy and suspicious. There has to be a better way.

:thumbsup:

[HaReb]

Kivi - do not mis-understand what I say.

Now you have answered I can see your purpose and have no problem with it as long as both sides are free to put their own views and beliefs. I think the problem arises when you say that you do not accept our understanding of what is Scripture, when we post responses to you and use those texts that we would regard as Scripture, but you seem to want us to accept your understanding, alone. Now you may be right - but I think you have an uphill battle on your hands because you are meeting us with immovable ideas of your own :)

This is what I could not reconcile in my mind. What is the point of wanting to debate when both sides are (almost literally) reading from different books?

There are a number of us here with Post Graduate qualifications (some in theology, some in related fields and some in other subjects, and some not so advanced in their education or the subject matter - it is helpful to bear this in mind, perhaps, as we all try to do though we do not always succeed!) :)

[kivi]

While that is true, I haven't found one that likes to debate scripture yet, they mostly like to talk about halacha, so this is refreshing albeit will take some time to get comfortable with each other. I welcome your imput. We should lay out some ground rules though, if someone is speaking of anything recorded, at any time it should be posted or a link given to read so everyone can at least be on the same page with what is being discussed, agreed?
Dear Lulav, if I might clear up a definition> Halachah is part of scriptures. When G-d tells Moses in scriptures that Jewish men are to wear fringes on the corners of their 4 cornered garments as an identification tag, He is giving Halachah. Of course, there is also a lot of scripture that is not Halachah, there is history, mysticism, analogy, theology, morality, ethics, astromony, geology, etc etc etc, but in Torah, the prime thingee is Halachah. To us, the Torah IS the 613 categories of Laws for running the Jewish Nation, B'nai Israel, in the Land of Israel, Eretz Israel. These 613 Laws cover all areas of behavior of a nation: social, military, political, royal, ceremonial, legal [both criminal and civil], religious, etc. There is no area of Jewish behavior that is not covered. The 613 Mitzvahs of Torah are totally comprehensive. I hope that clears up something.

[kivi]

Kivi - do not mis-understand what I say.

Now you have answered I can see your purpose and have no problem with it as long as both sides are free to put their own views and beliefs. I think the problem arises when you say that you do not accept our understanding of what is Scripture, when we post responses to you and use those texts that we would regard as Scripture, but you seem to want us to accept your understanding, alone. Now you may be right - but I think you have an uphill battle on your hands because you are meeting us with immovable ideas of your own :)

This is what I could not reconcile in my mind. What is the point of wanting to debate when both sides are (almost literally) reading from different books?

There are a number of us here with Post Graduate qualifications (some in theology, some in related fields and some in other subjects, and some not so advanced in their education or the subject matter - it is helpful to bear this in mind, perhaps, as we all try to do (though we do not always succeed!) :)
HaReb says: "Kivi - do not mis-understand what I say.

Now you have answered I can see your purpose and have no problem with it as long as both sides are free to put their own views and beliefs."

Kivi says: "Thank you."

HaReb says: " I think the problem arises when you say that you do not accept our understanding of what is Scripture, when we post responses to you and use those texts that we would regard as Scripture, but you seem to want us to accept your understanding, alone."

kivis says: "If that is how I came across, please put it down to my slow and shallow learning curve which is very flat. What I was trying to start off with the idea that both of us have different ideas of what 'scriptures' mean. And that we should be both allowed to us out own tradition definition without the other saying that it doesn't count. I should be allowed to use the Chumash, the rest of the Tanach, the Talmud and the post Talmudic Responsa and you should be allowed to use the Old Testament and the New Testament and relevant [as definied by you] post New Testament writings. I also wanted to get to the problem that often when we start quoting from the Tanach/Old Testament, the texts are different, even though we may be using the same Chapter and verse headings. We need to always compare our tanslations. I will be using the Judaica Pess translation of the Tanach which can to accessed on-line at Chabah. My preference is ArtScroll, but there is no on-line sample for ArtScroll. What you use, of course, is your choice completely. I have access to biblegateway for many different Christian translations."


HaReb says: "Now you may be right - but I think you have an uphill battle on your hands because you are meeting us with immovable ideas of your own :) "

kivi says: "I have no desire to change beliefs accept maybe civility and trust."

HaReb says: "This is what I could not reconcile in my mind. What is the point of wanting to debate when both sides are (almost literally) reading from different books?"

kivi says: "Really, I don't want to debate. 1st, I can't based on the rules at ChristianForums. 2nd, its not my purpose. I want to share, starting with the truth that while we are using different texts, we don't acknowledge that simple fact."

HaReb says: "There are a number of us here with Post Graduate qualifications (some in theology, some in related fields and some in other subjects, and some not so advanced in their education or the subject matter - it is helpful to bear this in mind, perhaps, as we all try to do (though we do not always succeed!) :)"

kivi says: "Lets see what we can create out of the love of G-d we both share!"

[stone]

Having been SDA before I became a Messianic, I was taught that Shabbat would be the final test.

Hmmmmmm my Bible isn't really clear on that, only that Shabbat IS one of the commandments.

I don't really know and I think I'll just trust G-d on this one. Maybe Shabbat could be part of it maybe not?
Maybe Y'shua and His Gospel and what you will do with it?

Maybe G-d hasn't seen fit to tell us exactly what it is and we should just trust Him on this one?

What do you think?

G-d Bless.


Shalom,


Lebesgue


It is written that the test will be that those who have faith will receive the\a mark, so that the plague's that are coming will not suffer them, those that believe in Jesus that is.

[stone]

I don't get the question....what "final test"?
Can you explain it for us non-messianic/non-SDA types? :)

This was written by a jewish prophet and apostle of Jesus christ. A man that kept the testimony of Jesus to the day of his death.

***

Revelation 20:1-10 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[stone]

those who have trained themselves in the obedience and discipline that keeping the commandments requires will be better equipped to handle persecution when it comes than those who have been lax and made excuses for their "freedom"

also Shabbat is a refuge in time and those who know how to access this refuge will have better access to personal and spiritual Shalom than those who have never cultivated this habit/skill....

It has been my experience that the trials for each of us are unique to each of us and thus I think the "final test" will also largely be unique to each of us....


It is not commandments that will save you from the trials that will soon be here, but faith in Jesus as christ and lord.

[Lulav]

Dear Lulav, if I might clear up a definition> Halachah is part of scriptures. When G-d tells Moses in scriptures that Jewish men are to wear fringes on the corners of their 4 cornered garments as an identification tag, He is giving Halachah. Of course, there is also a lot of scripture that is not Halachah, there is history, mysticism, analogy, theology, morality, ethics, astromony, geology, etc etc etc, but in Torah, the prime thingee is Halachah. To us, the Torah IS the 613 categories of Laws for running the Jewish Nation, B'nai Israel, in the Land of Israel, Eretz Israel. These 613 Laws cover all areas of behavior of a nation: social, military, political, royal, ceremonial, legal [both criminal and civil], religious, etc. There is no area of Jewish behavior that is not covered. The 613 Mitzvahs of Torah are totally comprehensive. I hope that clears up something. I left out the word 'basic' as in the three basic categories that observant Jews follow, that we seem to touch on mainly, Shabbat, kashrut and sometimes niddah, but that's ok, you seem to think I am someone who has no idea what it means to be a Jew, I guess if you believe in Yeshua/ Jesus as Messiah your IQ goes down 40 points? Eh, I still have plenty to spare. :wave:

FWIW I believe the whole word is about Halacha, including what we believe to be the end of the story, in the 'New Testement', in there we are taught by the Holy one, blessed Is he, proper interpretation of Torah and how we are to walk, on a very narrow path I might add. :)

[kivi]

I am sorry, but earlier you ask several questions about my earlier responses. I did answer them. But my answers were deleted by a moderator in the act of 'cleaning up the thread'. I don't know what to do now. If you are interested in my responses, to your questions, I will be happy to send them to you, if you want that andi n the form you want. Otherwise, I'll just have to apologize and let it drop.

[simchat_torah]

It will be a blended Calculus and Geometry test.

[Steve Petersen]

One of the sages has said that Messiah will come when Israel is either entirely righteous or entirely wicked. If Israel is righteous, he will be riding a horse; if wicked, a donkey.

[ChavaK]

It will be a blended Calculus and Geometry test.

LOL, good thing I'm good at math (well, I used to be until I forgot it all)

[HaReb]

One of the sages has said that Messiah will come when Israel is either entirely righteous or entirely wicked. If Israel is righteous, he will be riding a horse; if wicked, a donkey.


Used to have a kids joke that ended something like - I've just seen the vicar on a pair of roller skates (the others, who were rogues, got cars or bikes)! I hope Messiah isn't walking, when he comes, for Israel's sake :D

[Lulav]

One of the sages has said that Messiah will come when Israel is either entirely righteous or entirely wicked. If Israel is righteous, he will be riding a horse; if wicked, a donkey. I would be interested in who said this and when it was recorded.

Yeshua came humble and riding on a donkey and its foal, meek, as a servant, as he was prophesied to come in Zechariah

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy King cometh unto thee; He is just and having salvation; lowly and riding upon a colt Who else came to Israel like this?

He that sees a donkey in his dream should expect salvation because it says, 'Behold thy King cometh unto thee; He is just and having salvation; lowly and riding upon an ass.' Berachot 56b