Are you apostolic or apostate?

[AllTalkNoAction]

apostle is one who is sent away with a message
apostate is one who stands away from that message

The apostles took the message of new Life in Christ through repentance, believers baptism and receiving His Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues.
(Acts 2:4, 33-39, 10:44-48, 11:14-18)

Many "churches" now stand away from this message, so they are "apostate", not "apostolic".

Which are you?

[LivingWorshipper]

So whosoever does not speak in tongues, has not repented, been baptized or received the Holy Spirit? Because, according to the Scriptures, Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1), and we never see Him speaking in tongues. Furthermore, it would imply that he who does not speak in tongues, does not have the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote: "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:4).

Furthermore, the apostle writes: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

Paul ends the chapter saying: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).

This clearly shows that speaking in tongues is not an ineludible evidence of having the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit manifests itself in many ways, and, Biblically, should never be reduced to "speaking in tongues".

May the Lord be praised, and may His Word stand true forever and ever. Amen.

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

Since chapter 11, Paul has been talking about what God wants in meetings, that's the context. This passage is not detailing what different people get when they become Christians. If it were, you would have the rediculous doctrine that only some get wisdom, knowledge, faith etc. You con't single out tongues and make it different from the rest of the attributes listed!

So LW, do you believe that God only gives wisdom, knowledge and faith to some Christians?

Can you even be a Christian without knowedge and faith?

If you now wish to make a distinction between knowledge, wisdom, faith generally and the gift of, will you do the same for tongues?

If what you believe is true, why does Paul begin the letter:-
"in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you" (1:5-6) ?

How can you have Jesus withing and NOT his mind, power or other abilities??

If what you say is true and only some Christians get speaking in tongues, why does Paul reason with them not to all speak in tongues when they meet? That could never happen if what you say is true!

Lastly, how do you explain the fact that in Acts, which does deal with people becoming Christians, we never read of some getting the gift of tongues, we only read of all speaking in tongues?

[PattyOfurniture]

Since chapter 11, Paul has been talking about what God wants in meetings, that's the context. This passage is not detailing what different people get when they become Christians. If it were, you would have the rediculous doctrine that only some get wisdom, knowledge, faith etc. You con't single out tongues and make it different from the rest of the attributes listed!

So LW, do you believe that God only gives wisdom, knowledge and faith to some Christians?

Can you even be a Christian without knowedge and faith?

If you now wish to make a distinction between knowledge, wisdom, faith generally and the gift of, will you do the same for tongues?

If what you believe is true, why does Paul begin the letter:-
"in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you" (1:5-6) ?

How can you have Jesus withing and NOT his mind, power or other abilities??

If what you say is true and only some Christians get speaking in tongues, why does Paul reason with them not to all speak in tongues when they meet? That could never happen if what you say is true!

Lastly, how do you explain the fact that in Acts, which does deal with people becoming Christians, we never read of some getting the gift of tongues, we only read of all speaking in tongues?
wow, you must be Labour Party....looool.that was a great tap dance....
re read your response a few times slowly,its utterly embarrassing

i guess the BBC is showing reruns of the Muppet show
ps at least theres honesty in the SN

[PattyOfurniture]

So whosoever does not speak in tongues, has not repented, been baptized or received the Holy Spirit? Because, according to the Scriptures, Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1), and we never see Him speaking in tongues. Furthermore, it would imply that he who does not speak in tongues, does not have the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote: "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:4).

Furthermore, the apostle writes: "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Corinthians 12:7-11).

Paul ends the chapter saying: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way." (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).

This clearly shows that speaking in tongues is not an ineludible evidence of having the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit manifests itself in many ways, and, Biblically, should never be reduced to "speaking in tongues".

May the Lord be praised, and may His Word stand true forever and ever. Amen.
That was a Homerun(Bases loaded) Hermano

[LivingWorshipper]

If it were, you would have the rediculous doctrine that only some get wisdom, knowledge, faith etc. You con't single out tongues and make it different from the rest of the attributes listed!
When these Scriptures are detailing these specific gifts of the Holy Spirit, it does not mean that only some get wisdom, knowledge, faith, etcetera. It does mean, however, that some Christians have them in a special measure. For example: You see some Christians having a lot more faith than others; some who are always more happy than others; some who seem to always have more knowledge than others.

If what you say is true and only some Christians get speaking in tongues, why does Paul reason with them not to all speak in tongues when they meet? That could never happen if what you say is true!
We see great interest in speaking in tongues, especially among the charismatic Christian groups. We also know that, according to the Scriptures, there are different ways in which the gift of tongues is manifested. One is the one described in Acts 2, where each heard the apostles speaking in their own language. The other one is described in 1 Corinthians 14, which is in an intentelligible language. This is the one the charismatic groups place more emphasis with. What happened, then, with the other part of speaking in tongues?

Furthermore, we could say that Paul was using a hyperbole. For example: we go to a party and we say: "everyone was there!" Was every single people there? No. We see a bunch of guys drinking alcohol, and we say: "everyone was drinking". Is that really so? No. Paul received an excellent education. He knew very well how to use rethorical/literary figures. He said he was the worst of all sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15. Can we really say that he is the worst of all sinners? Don't most of us consider ourselves even worse than apostle Paul?

Lastly, how do you explain the fact that in Acts, which does deal with people becoming Christians, we never read of some getting the gift of tongues, we only read of all speaking in tongues?
We don't see the Ethiopian who was baptized by Philip speaking in tongues. We don't see Paul speaking in tongues after his conversion. He does say, however, that he speaks in tongues (I Cor. 14:18.), but it is never shown anywhere in the Scriptures, showing that it became a matter of personal edification (I Cor. 14:4). We don't see Lydia speaking in tongues in Acts 16. In the same chapter, we don't see the keeper of the prison speaking in tongues.

In 1 Corinthians 12, when apostle Paul says: "Do all speak in tongues?" The question is formulated in a way that the answer is: "No".

It is the Word of God that we proclaim, my beloved brother, and it does not support the idea that all who believe must speak in tongues, or that if one does not speak in tongue, he does not believe. What we are supposed to be pursuing, and what we are to pursue, is Jesus. The gifts are given for the edification of the body of Christ: the Church. They are instruments for a purpose: not the purpose themselves.

"Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:2).

[sunlover1]

apostle is one who is sent away with a message
apostate is one who stands away from that message

The apostles took the message of new Life in Christ through repentance, believers baptism and receiving His Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues.
(Acts 2:4, 33-39, 10:44-48, 11:14-18)

Many "churches" now stand away from this message, so they are "apostate", not "apostolic".

Which are you?
Evidenced by speaking in tongues?
As another poster asked, why would
it say that not all speak in tongues,
if all are to speak in tongues?

thanks,
sunlover

[AllTalkNoAction]

Evidenced by speaking in tongues?
As another poster asked, why would
it say that not all speak in tongues,
if all are to speak in tongues?

thanks,
sunloverIt is precisely because all speak in tongues privately ("praying" in the Holy Spirit) that there needs to be limitation and order when all meet, which is the context of Paul's comments since chapter 11.

"The gifts of the Spirit" are the meetings-use (i.e. giving to the church) of what all Christians have (indeed must have) for private use.
In meetings only one person should speak at once otherwise there is confusion, that's why it says
"to one is given . . wisdom . . knowledge . . faith . . tongues . .interpretation" (vv8-12).

You wouldn't say that only some Christians get faith, knowledge etc!!
So, why single tongues out and make it different?!

If it is true that only some Christians speak in tongues Paul would not need to reason with them not to all do so when they meet (chap 14), the problem could never arise!

So, like all my brothers & sisters, I have faith, knowledge, wisdom, tongues etc for private use, but, when we meet, I may or may not receive a gift of tongues, word of knowledge etc.

Acts details people becoming Christians, here we never read of some getting "the gift of tongues", we onlt read of all speaking in tongues when they receive the Spirit, indeed that is how it is known precisely when people receive God's invisible Spirit!

If you come to a church like the one God wants, like he set up, where all pray in tongues privately, and where the gifts are used as God details, you will easily understand the simple distinction between the private and public use of tongues.

[Matrixguru]

It is precisely because all speak in tongues privately ("praying" in the Holy Spirit) that there needs to be limitation and order when all meet, which is the context of Paul's comments since chapter 11.

"The gifts of the Spirit" are the meetings-use (i.e. giving to the church) of what all Christians have (indeed must have) for private use.
In meetings only one person should speak at once otherwise there is confusion, that's why it says
"to one is given . . wisdom . . knowledge . . faith . . tongues . .interpretation" (vv8-12).

You wouldn't say that only some Christians get faith, knowledge etc!!
So, why single tongues out and make it different?!

If it is true that only some Christians speak in tongues Paul would not need to reason with them not to all do so when they meet (chap 14), the problem could never arise!

So, like all my brothers & sisters, I have faith, knowledge, wisdom, tongues etc for private use, but, when we meet, I may or may not receive a gift of tongues, word of knowledge etc.

Acts details people becoming Christians, here we never read of some getting "the gift of tongues", we onlt read of all speaking in tongues when they receive the Spirit, indeed that is how it is known precisely when people receive God's invisible Spirit!

If you come to a church like the one God wants, like he set up, where all pray in tongues privately, and where the gifts are used as God details, you will easily understand the simple distinction between the private and public use of tongues.
I once was invited to a Pentecostal meeting by some friends who had been converted to this form of belief and who were "concerned" about my spiritual welfare. At the gathering there were some fifty or so men, women and children. At the "Head" of the gathering was a "Pastor". We were instructed to form small circles and hold hands and pray. After some swaying around came murmurings from the "seperate" groups. I felt very uncomfortable and gracefully closed the circle and went to the back of the room and observed the chaos which proceeded before me.
After they had finished, my friends aproached me and asked my thoughts and feelings about what had taken place. I enquired to which purpose and to what avail they had to achieve by this action ?
They replied, "We were speaking in tongues". I asked what they were saying, they answered me, "We don´t Know, only the Pastor Knows". I told them, as I am telling you all now. "This is NOT from God the Father or His Holy Spirit, it is dangerous what you do. God is a God of Love and does NOT confuse us with languages we do not understand, His Holy Spirit is a Spirit of unconditional Love and peace and stillness, it is a Spirit of comfort and Understanding not euphoretic murmurings !"
I told them, not be so naive. God is plain and simple to understand and satan is the master of lies and confusion.
Let us search for this Love within our Hearts and Spirit and be ever watchful in Prayer, through Love, Humility, Repentance and Understanding of what Jesus has taught us.
These things I hope, wish for and say, in the Sacred Name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .We were instructed to form small circles and hold hands and pray. After some swaying around came murmurings from the "seperate" groups. I felt . .
It is sad that people calling themselves "Pentecostal" ignore the clear instructions in the bible about worship . . but finding "foolish virgins" (Christians who ignore God) is no excuse for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Since you were willing to visit a group that so obviously got it wrong, will you visit the Church (http://www.revivalfellowship.org) I'm with where we do exactly as God commands in 1 Corinthians 14?
- please familiarise yourself with it.

[Matrixguru]

It is sad that people calling themselves "Pentecostal" ignore the clear instructions in the bible about worship . . but finding "foolish virgins" (Christians who ignore God) is no excuse for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Since you were willing to visit a group that so obviously got it wrong, will you visit the Church (http://www.revivalfellowship.org) I'm with where we do exactly as God commands in 1 Corinthians 14?
- please familiarise yourself with it.
Thanks for your concern ! But I have found the Truth amongst the churches that have "Got it wrong" like you said. There is only One Truth and One Way and One Doctrine. Not a whole array of differing Doctrines, Doctrines of men !

[AllTalkNoAction]

Thanks for your concern ! But I have found the Truth amongst the churches that have "Got it wrong" like you said. There is only One Truth and One Way and One Doctrine. Not a whole array of differing Doctrines, Doctrines of men !Please state the one doctrine.

[Matrixguru]

Please state the one doctrine.
It is The Church which bears His Holy and Sacred Name, The Church of Jesus Christ !
Open your heart, be humble and ask God the Father which Church is His and he will "Reveal" it unto you through the power of the Holy Ghost, if it is your sincere hearts desire to know it.
God Bless and protect you in your efforts.

[IamRedeemed]

:amen:


While tongues is not the greatest gift as the greatest gift is love and prophecy edifies the body, whilst tongues (in the manifestation in a prayer language) only edifies oneself, obviously it should still be desired as it does edify oneself. It is a gift. Praying in the Spirit is the only time our prayer is perfect, because the Holy Spirit knows better than we do, what or how we ought to pray.

I personally could not say that someone who doesn't speak in tongues wasn't saved, but I could have reasonable reservations as to whether someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit (which is not water Baptism) without speaking in tongues as I see no examples of that in the Word of God.

I don't know about anyone here and what your experience is, but in my experience I have never seen anyone who doesn't speak in tongues operate in any of the other supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

I have noticed that most people who condemn or resist the gift of tongues also resist most
of the other gifts as well. (are "unbelieving believers") But that has just been my experience.

When I see someone who resists the gift of tongues operate in other gifts of the
Holy Spirit, then my experience will be different, but until then............






It is precisely because all speak in tongues privately ("praying" in the Holy Spirit) that there needs to be limitation and order when all meet, which is the context of Paul's comments since chapter 11.

"The gifts of the Spirit" are the meetings-use (i.e. giving to the church) of what all Christians have (indeed must have) for private use.
In meetings only one person should speak at once otherwise there is confusion, that's why it says
"to one is given . . wisdom . . knowledge . . faith . . tongues . .interpretation" (vv8-12).

You wouldn't say that only some Christians get faith, knowledge etc!!
So, why single tongues out and make it different?!

If it is true that only some Christians speak in tongues Paul would not need to reason with them not to all do so when they meet (chap 14), the problem could never arise!

So, like all my brothers & sisters, I have faith, knowledge, wisdom, tongues etc for private use, but, when we meet, I may or may not receive a gift of tongues, word of knowledge etc.

Acts details people becoming Christians, here we never read of some getting "the gift of tongues", we onlt read of all speaking in tongues when they receive the Spirit, indeed that is how it is known precisely when people receive God's invisible Spirit!

If you come to a church like the one God wants, like he set up, where all pray in tongues privately, and where the gifts are used as God details, you will easily understand the simple distinction between the private and public use of tongues.


It is sad that people calling themselves "Pentecostal" ignore the clear instructions in the bible about worship . . but finding "foolish virgins" (Christians who ignore God) is no excuse for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Since you were willing to visit a group that so obviously got it wrong, will you visit the Church (http://www.revivalfellowship.org) I'm with where we do exactly as God commands in 1 Corinthians 14?
- please familiarise yourself with it.

[Matrixguru]

:amen:


While tongues is not the greatest gift as the greatest gift is love and prophecy edifies the body, whilst tongues (in the manifestation in a prayer language) only edifies oneself, obviously it should still be desired as it does edify oneself. It is a gift. Praying in the Spirit is the only time our prayer is perfect, because the Holy Spirit knows better than we do, what or how we ought to pray.

I personally could not say that someone who doesn't speak in tongues wasn't saved, but I could have reasonable reservations as to whether someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit (which is not water Baptism) without speaking in tongues as I see no examples of that in the Word of God.

I don't know about anyone here and what your experience is, but in my experience I have never seen anyone who doesn't speak in tongues operate in any of the other supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

I have noticed that most people who condemn or resist the gift of tongues also resist most
of the other gifts as well. (are "unbelieving believers") But that has just been my experience.

When I see someone who resists the gift of tongues operate in other gifts of the
Holy Spirit, then my experience will be different, but until then............

No need to speak in a language you don´t understand !
God understands you when you speak in your own language.
All tongues and nations will come to the knowledge of God.
I believe the miracle at Pentecost is hugely misunderstood.

[IamRedeemed]

No need to pray in a language you don't understand? Not so according to the Word of God.

I would say rather, there is no need to reject or resist the gift. However, you should pray that you will get understanding. That is also something we may have.

1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church.

Paul is saying, that one who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself. But we should also desire to prophesy as the prayer language only edifies ourselves UNLESS we get a prophetic word (which is not fortune telling, but edifying and can be in the form of an encouragement, an exhortation, a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, which is given to one in the body to edify another or it can be for the whole church and even for the body of Christ as a whole. aka a Rhema Word)

One might speak in an unknown tongue and another is given the interpretation thereof OR the same who spoke in the unknown tongue may also receive the interpretation.


We judge what is spoken by the Word of God, trying the spirits. If what is said aligns, good deal. If not then we have a false prophet or counterfeit on our hands. But we do not throw away the gifts because of the fear of abuse, for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but one of love and of power and a sound mind.

Paul goes on to say in verse 5-6:

I would that you all spoke with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Cor 14:14-15
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul doesn't say don't pray in the spirit because you don't understand it. He does give instructions though regarding the use of the gifts. There is three diversities in the gift of tongues revealed in the Word. One is the prayer language, two is to prophecy (receive a Rhema Word from God), and the third is preaching the Gospel in a language of the people you are preaching to, but you do not speak that language.

Know this:

When you speak in your own language you are NOT praying in the Holy Ghost.

The gift of tongues manifested as a prayer language is the Holy Spirit uttering on your behalf. Satan cannot hinder those prayers number 1 and number 2, as the Word of God says, The Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer when you know not what you ought to pray.

I agree with you that what happened at pentecost IS largely misunderstood. For example the belief of cessationalism.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have NOT ceased.


No need to speak in a language you don´t understand !
God understands you when you speak in your own language.
All tongues and nations will come to the knowledge of God.
I believe the miracle at Pentecost is hugely misunderstood.

[AllTalkNoAction]

IamRedeemed, I mostly agree . . .
"the gifts" passage (1 Cor. 12& 14) is often quoted, but rarely understood or practiced by so-called "bible-believing" churches.

It talks about how God works on different people to give in meetings, i.e. giving to the church, not what different people get when they become Christians.

It actually says:-
"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith , , tongues . .interpretation . ." (12v8-)

It says "to one is given . . . wisdom . .knowledge . .faith etc

No-one I have ever met believes that only one/some christians get wisdom, knowledge and faith, do you?
Yet when it comes to tongues people want to treat it differently!

The real message of the passage is that only one should be speaking at once, to avoid confusion. Later he reasons with them not to all speak in tongues as this will make visitors think they are mad. If only some could speak in tongues, that problem could never arise!

Acts details people becoming Christians, here ALL speak in tongues, we NEVER read, "some got the gift". I hope you see the point.

So, like all my brethren, I pray in tongues privately, and use and grow in faith, knowledge, etc daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or give the word of wisdom or knowledge ("a talk").

* * *
I believe that the bapytism in the Spirit is how Jesus saves:-
"he saved us, by the washing (greek: loutrou: complete washing or baptism) of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)

"by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1 Cor. 12:13)

The baptism in the Spirit is how we are added to God's church, you cannot be saved and not be in the church!

"and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" is another reference to the Spirit giving utterance in tongues . . .
drinking the living water

[Matrixguru]

No need to pray in a language you don't understand? Not so according to the Word of God.

I would say rather, there is no need to reject or resist the gift. However, you should pray that you will get understanding. That is also something we may have.

1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church.

Paul is saying, that one who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself. But we should also desire to prophesy as the prayer language only edifies ourselves UNLESS we get a prophetic word (which is not fortune telling, but edifying and can be in the form of an encouragement, an exhortation, a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom, which is given to one in the body to edify another or it can be for the whole church and even for the body of Christ as a whole. aka a Rhema Word)

One might speak in an unknown tongue and another is given the interpretation thereof OR the same who spoke in the unknown tongue may also receive the interpretation.


We judge what is spoken by the Word of God, trying the spirits. If what is said aligns, good deal. If not then we have a false prophet or counterfeit on our hands. But we do not throw away the gifts because of the fear of abuse, for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but one of love and of power and a sound mind.

Paul goes on to say in verse 5-6:

I would that you all spoke with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Cor 14:14-15
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul doesn't say don't pray in the spirit because you don't understand it. He does give instructions though regarding the use of the gifts. There is three diversities in the gift of tongues revealed in the Word. One is the prayer language, two is to prophecy (receive a Rhema Word from God), and the third is preaching the Gospel in a language of the people you are preaching to, but you do not speak that language.

Know this:

When you speak in your own language you are NOT praying in the Holy Ghost.

The gift of tongues manifested as a prayer language is the Holy Spirit uttering on your behalf. Satan cannot hinder those prayers number 1 and number 2, as the Word of God says, The Holy Spirit prays perfect prayer when you know not what you ought to pray.

I agree with you that what happened at pentecost IS largely misunderstood. For example the belief of cessationalism.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have NOT ceased.

A Prophet has to be called of God !
A Prophet is a Special Witness and Messenger of God !
Now, according to "secular christian beliefs" The last Prophet was Jesus Christ and His word was and is the last, (Which is a contradiction and dare I say, an outright LIE) although it is clear that the Apostles went on to "Prophesy" after Jesus died !!!

Can you explain this to me, when you are speaking in your tongues, what you are "Prophesying" ???

If it is for the edification of all mankind, it should be Scripture and we all need to know about it, or is it just for yourself ???

P.S: I NEVER heard Jesus Christ instruct us to pray in tongues and "The Lords Prayer" is NOT in tongues and in this manner He instructed us to pray !!!

Know this: What you all do, is Not of God but of the adversary ! You do not understand what you are saying, you have no message and you utter in euphoria. I have witnessed this.

[IamRedeemed]

Read my post again. Tongues as a prayer language is not prophesying. It is the
Holy Spirit making utterances unto God on your behalf. That is why Paul said
when one does pray in tongues he edifies only himself.

Instead of coming from an accusatory stance, why don't you approach the Word of God
as a child of God and seek to understand what the Lord would like you to learn from
HIS Word?

And you do not have to be a PROPHET to PROPHESY. Again read my post again.
This time actually READ IT. Apparently you have a one tract view of what Prophesy is.


A Prophet has to be called of God !
A Prophet is a Special Witness and Messenger of God !
Now, according to "secular christian beliefs" The last Prophet was Jesus Christ and His word was and is the last, (Which is a contradiction and dare I say, an outright LIE) although it is clear that the Apostles went on to "Prophesy" after Jesus died !!!

Can you explain this to me, when you are speaking in your tongues, what you are "Prophesying" ???

If it is for the edification of all mankind, it should be Scripture and we all need to know about it, or is it just for yourself ???

P.S: I NEVER heard Jesus Christ instruct us to pray in tongues and "The Lords Prayer" is NOT in tongues and in this manner He instructed us to pray !!!

Know this: What you all do, is Not of God but of the adversary ! You do not understand what you are saying, you have no message and you utter in euphoria. I have witnessed this.

[IamRedeemed]

The Disciples' spirits were born again, after Christ's resurrection and before Pentecost.

Jesus appeared on the first day of the week, after His resurrection, among the
Disciples when they were locked in, in fear of the Jewish Leaders.

He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" and He breathed on them.

That was the moment the Holy Spirit first resided as an inhabitant in the souls of men.
It was the day their spirits were born again.

This happened BEFORE they were baptized by Fire in the Holy Ghost.

So, I do beg to disagree with you, that a person cannot be born again who has not
received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Tongues is shown in the Word as evidence that those who were Baptized in
the Holy Ghost received the Baptism, it is not however recorded as evidence
of them having been born again.




IamRedeemed, I mostly agree . . .
"the gifts" passage (1 Cor. 12& 14) is often quoted, but rarely understood or practiced by so-called "bible-believing" churches.

It talks about how God works on different people to give in meetings, i.e. giving to the church, not what different people get when they become Christians.

It actually says:-
"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith , , tongues . .interpretation . ." (12v8-)

It says "to one is given . . . wisdom . .knowledge . .faith etc

No-one I have ever met believes that only one/some christians get wisdom, knowledge and faith, do you?
Yet when it comes to tongues people want to treat it differently!

The real message of the passage is that only one should be speaking at once, to avoid confusion. Later he reasons with them not to all speak in tongues as this will make visitors think they are mad. If only some could speak in tongues, that problem could never arise!

Acts details people becoming Christians, here ALL speak in tongues, we NEVER read, "some got the gift". I hope you see the point.

So, like all my brethren, I pray in tongues privately, and use and grow in faith, knowledge, etc daily, but, in a meeting, I may or may not receive "a gift of tongues" or give the word of wisdom or knowledge ("a talk").

* * *
I believe that the bapytism in the Spirit is how Jesus saves:-
"he saved us, by the washing (greek: loutrou: complete washing or baptism) of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)

"by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"(1 Cor. 12:13)

The baptism in the Spirit is how we are added to God's church, you cannot be saved and not be in the church!

"and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" is another reference to the Spirit giving utterance in tongues . . .
drinking the living water

[AllTalkNoAction]

The Disciples' spirits were born again, after Christ's resurrection and before Pentecost.
. . . He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" and He breathed on them.

That was the moment the Holy Spirit first resided as an inhabitant in the souls of men.
It was the day their spirits were born again.
You have fallen into the trap of adding to scripture, just like the disciples did:-

John:21:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
:23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus had already explained that he needed to return to the Father and send the Spirit, (John 7:39, 14:20, 15:26, 16:7) in John 20 he had not yet ascended:-

John:20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Jesus breathing on them was prophetic of Pentecost where there was a mighty "wind" (greek: breath).

Similarly, some people say that Jesus washed their sins when he washed their feet, but this was prophetic, as were many of his physical actions.

Acts:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear (referring to the Speaking in tongues)

(Peter later referred to this as "the beginning", birth is the beginning - Acts 11:14-15)
Jesus also referred to speaking in tongues when he said:-
John:3:8: The wind blows (greek: the Spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Just like a baby cries when it is born, so speaking in tongues was taken as the first sign of being born of the Spirit.

Gal.:4:6: And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

[IamRedeemed]

Actually it is YOU who have added to Scripture. Your explanation is not found in the
Word of God as Jesus breathing on them being prophetic of Pentecost.
He simply said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", and He breathed on them.

The Word of God ALSO says that speaking in tongues was the evidence
that people were Baptized in the Holy Ghost, it does not say it is evidence
of their salvation.





You have fallen into the trap of adding to scripture, just like the disciples did:-

John:21:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
:23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus had already explained that he needed to return to the Father and send the Spirit, (John 7:39, 14:20, 15:26, 16:7) in John 20 he had not yet ascended:-

John:20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Jesus breathing on them was prophetic of Pentecost where there was a mighty "wind" (greek: breath).

Similarly, some people say that Jesus washed their sins when he washed their feet, but this was prophetic, as were many of his physical actions.

Acts:2:33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear (referring to the Speaking in tongues)

(Peter later referred to this as "the beginning", birth is the beginning - Acts 11:14-15)
Jesus also referred to speaking in tongues when he said:-
John:3:8: The wind blows (greek: the Spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Just like a baby cries when it is born, so speaking in tongues was taken as the first sign of being born of the Spirit.

Gal.:4:6: And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

[Matrixguru]

Read my post again. Tongues as a prayer language is not prophesying. It is the
Holy Spirit making utterances unto God on your behalf. That is why Paul said
when one does pray in tongues he edifies only himself.

Instead of coming from an accusatory stance, why don't you approach the Word of God
as a child of God and seek to understand what the Lord would like you to learn from
HIS Word?

And you do not have to be a PROPHET to PROPHESY. Again read my post again.
This time actually READ IT. Apparently you have a one tract view of what Prophesy is.



You have still not answered my questions and statements ! Typical avasion of the truth.
I believe you may be hearing things through a spirit, but this is not the spirit of God.
What is this spirit "edifying"you with ???

[IamRedeemed]

What is it that you said that actually addressed
what my post actually says? :scratch: Why should I answer
questions that do not apply to what I actually said?

Please reread my post and reformulate your questions
based on what I actually said and I will be happy to
reply accordingly.

And your last question here in this post, which questions
1 Corinthians 14:4, which is
"He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself;
but he that prophesies edifies the church."

sounds like you have a problem with the Scripture, not with me,
so your inflammatory remarks toward me regarding it are inapplicable.




You have still not answered my questions and statements ! Typical avasion of the truth.
I believe you may be hearing things through a spirit, but this is not the spirit of God.
What is this spirit "edifying"you with ???

[Matrixguru]

What is it that you said that actually addressed
what my post actually says? :scratch: Why should I answer
questions that do not apply to what I actually said?

Please reread my post and reformulate your questions
based on what I actually said and I will be happy to
reply accordingly.

And your last question here in this post, which questions
1 Corinthians 14:4, which is
"He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself;
but he that prophesies edifies the church."

sounds like you have a problem with the Scripture, not with me,
so your inflammatory remarks toward me regarding it are inapplicable.



Again, you seem to have difficulty in answering my questions, after all, you are talking about speaking in tongues, aren´t you ?
Your reaction of evaiding my questions appear to be common amongst "Born Again" christians, no matter where in the world you may meet one. They just have enormous difficulties explaining what they have said when "Speaking in Tongues", strange !
If you feel inflammed by my simple questions, I do not apologise, because the problem lies within yourself with this feeling and that needs some attention, not I !!!
I have no problem with scripture, only mans interpretation ther of.

The question is; Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions ?

[IamRedeemed]

Once again your questions did not relate to anything I actually said in my post. Why should I make a defense for something I don't believe and haven't said? That is ridiculous. http://www.freepowerboards.com/sotc/users/6333/smilies/laugh.gif
Like I said, reformulate your questions to coincide with my actual posts and I will be
happy to answer for what I actually said. Okay?


Again, you seem to have difficulty in answering my questions, after all, you are talking about speaking in tongues, aren´t you ?
Your reaction of evaiding my questions appear to be common amongst "Born Again" christians, no matter where in the world you may meet one. They just have enormous difficulties explaining what they have said when "Speaking in Tongues", strange !
If you feel inflammed by my simple questions, I do not apologise, because the problem lies within yourself with this feeling and that needs some attention, not I !!!
I have no problem with scripture, only mans interpretation ther of.

The question is; Why do you refuse to answer my simple questions ?

[Matrixguru]

Once again your questions did not relate to anything I actually said in my post. Why should I make a defense for something I don't believe and haven't said? That is ridiculous. http://www.freepowerboards.com/sotc/users/6333/smilies/laugh.gif
Like I said, reformulate your questions to coincide with my actual posts and I will be
happy to answer for what I actually said. Okay?
Useless !

[IamRedeemed]

I agree. :thumbsup: This kind of tactic you have attempted to employ, IS completely useless. You really ought to try to address the actual contents of given posts, you might find more success in a more fruitful dialogue that way.;)

Useless !

[Matrixguru]

I agree. :thumbsup: This kind of tactic you have attempted to employ, IS completely useless. You really ought to try to address the actual contents of given posts, you might find more success in a more fruitful dialogue that way.;)

O.K.
I understand that there are many Apostate religions on the earth.
The Apostacy began immediately after the death of Jesus Christ and continues Today.
We have so many differing Doctrines, (Doctrines of Men. Eph. 4: 14; Col: 2 22; and Tim. 4: 1)
In Answer to the first statement from All Talk, an Apostle of the Lord is a prophesier, seer, revelator and above all, A Special Witness of Jesus Christ who has to be called of God. (Heb. 5: 4)
An Apostacy is a Falling away from the Truth and Doctrine of Jesus Christ, which began after the Death of Him and ultimately, after the death of the Apostles.(Check out the arguings and quarrles about Doctrine and Scripture of the so called,"early farthers of the church". (Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Marcion, Valentinus, Irenaeus, Justin, Alexandria, Origen etc.)
This is why Mathew Chapter 16: 15-19 has so much relivance to this continuing apostate situation. Jesus Christ declares to Peter in verse 17;
(KJV) "Flesh and Blood (Man) hath not REVEALED it unto thee, but MY Father which is in Heaven,(REVELATION).
Now, the next verse, which is probably the most important yet misunderstood verse EVER, (Which leads the World into continuing Apostacy) states; "And I say unto thee,that thou art Peter,( Only making the statement that Jesus is addressing Peter) and upon THIS Rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Almost every christian teaching, especially the catholic church, believe that Peter was the Rock and is the head of the church, WRONG ! Jesus Christ is the head of His Church, Peter went on to deny Jesus 3 times after this statement, so he was hardly a rock, even though his name means rock in the greek language and even though he´d had this marvelous Revelation. Peter was still a man but still special and loved by Jesus, that is why Jesus told Peter He would give him the "Key´s" to the Kingdom of Heaven !
The "Rock" is Revelation and Jesus Christ was talking about a Restoration, not reformation. Because He knew there would be a falling away from the True Doctrine.
So, how can we know which Doctrine is of God and Jesus Christ ?
How can we know which is Jesus Christ´s Church ?
What are the "Keys" to the Kingdom of Heaven ?
Don´t forget, Flesh and Blood cannot "Reveal" it unto you !

To be continued.........

[IamRedeemed]

Actually, as far as I know, only the Catholic church teaches that Peter is the rock and is the head of the Church. The rest of us know that Peter is not the rock, but the revelation that was given to Peter by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God is that which Christ referred to and said He will build His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Furthermore the Word declares that Peter was called as an Apostle to the Jews (those of the circumcision), while Paul was called as the Apostle to the gentiles (the uncircumcised). (Gal. 2:7-8) So to say that "most every Christian teaching believe that Peter is the rock or the head of the Church is a completely false statement.

[Matrixguru]

Actually, as far as I know, only the Catholic church teaches that Peter is the rock and is the head of the Church. The rest of us know that Peter is not the rock, but the revelation that was given to Peter by the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God is that which Christ referred to and said He will build His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Furthermore the Word declares that Peter was called as an Apostle to the Jews (those of the circumcision), while Paul was called as the Apostle to the gentiles (the uncircumcised). (Gal. 2:7-8) So to say that "most every Christian teaching believe that Peter is the rock or the head of the Church is a completely false statement.


Do you mean to say then, all other scripture in the bible is useless and irrelevent to us "Gentiles" , the old and new Testaments ? Only what Paul says is meant for us, is that what you are saying ???
Amazing !
You don´t even recognise that all (Except One) "christian" religions evolved from the catholic church, so called "Reformations".
Jesus was talking about a Restoration in is address to Peter, "I Will" (Pertaining to a future event) build "MY"(Pertaining to the Church of Jesus Christ) Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ". Check your history.

The "Rock" is REVELATION, a Church which is built on direct Revelation cannot be destroyed by the devil ! Fact, Logical.
Is this Clear ???

[IamRedeemed]

No, if I meant to say such a ridiculous thing, I would have said it plainly.

All Churches did not come from the Roman Catholic Church.
That statement is false. The Apostles were NOT Roman Catholic.

The "catholic" Church the Bible refers to (note the lower case "c")
has no connection whatever to do with Rome and/or the Vatican.

The "Revelation" the Church was built on, I already told you, is that
"Jesus is THE CHRIST, The SON of the LIVING GOD." on that revelation given
by the Holy Spirit, not on any nonsense such as it being built upon Peter
who is not a "rock" but a "pebble."

Jewish names were always given as a symbol or meaning of something.
Jesus gave Simon the name Peter (pebble) as symbolic of the day that the
Holy Spirit gave him the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.
It is JESUS CHRIST and not Peter who is the ROCK of our Salvation. He is the CHIEF
Cornerstone, the Stone that the builders rejected.

[Matrixguru]

No, if I meant to say such a ridiculous thing, I would have said it plainly.

All Churches did not come from the Roman Catholic Church.
That statement is false. The Apostles were NOT Roman Catholic.

The "catholic" Church the Bible refers to (note the lower case "c")
has no connection whatever to do with Rome and/or the Vatican.

The "Revelation" the Church was built on, I already told you, is that
"Jesus is THE CHRIST, The SON of the LIVING GOD." on that revelation given
by the Holy Spirit, not on any nonsense such as it being built upon Peter
who is not a "rock" but a "pebble."

Jewish names were always given as a symbol or meaning of something.
Jesus gave Simon the name Peter (pebble) as symbolic of the day that the
Holy Spirit gave him the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.
It is JESUS CHRIST and not Peter who is the ROCK of our Salvation. He is the CHIEF
Cornerstone, the Stone that the builders rejected.


Again, you and your kind persist in not seeing the fact and statement I have so plainly shown. I repeat, The Rock is REVELATION, not the statement which Peter made, Thou art Jesus the Christ.......but the fact which Jesus made to Peter, " Flesh and Blood hath not REVEALED (ROCK)this (Statement) unto you but My Father in Heaven and thou art Peter, and upon this Rock, (REVELATION) I Will Buid My Church..........
Matthew 15: 16-19

Read it, Ponder and Pray about it and your eyes may be opened !

By the way, I don´t think the Protestant Church, Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutherin,
Calvanist, New Life, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Adventist etc, etc, etc,
were all around in early Rome ! So, where did they all spring from ???
Again, check your History books and Encyclopedias friend !

[jamescarvin]

Since you were willing to visit a group that so obviously got it wrong, will you visit the Church I'm with where we do exactly as God commands in 1 Corinthians 14?
- please familiarise yourself with it.

I am amazed at how many people are willing to make this claim of being the Church in a way that makes it sound exclusive. I have heard Roman Catholics saying it. I have heard Orthodox Christians saying it. I have heard Jehovah's Witnesses saying it. I have heard Church of Christ members say it. And now I am hearing Pentecostals saying it - first from one who is saying if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved, and then from one who has an interpretation of 1 Cor. 14.

Then of course, this very thread started out with the question of whether we were apostate or apostolic and the writer opens his post talking about "believers baptism" as some sort of sign of orthodoxy, as if he was the pope pronouncing this doctrine infallible and everyone anathema who did not espouse it.

Lord have mercy on us, lest we be judged the way we are judging and be shown mercy the way we are showing mercy.

John did say that there was one outward behavior that would identify true disciples of Christ. He said it was by their love that you would know them.


"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35)