"Choose you this day" - SDA or Jews? Where does the Sabbath begin/end?

[Your Neighbor]

I had started a thread with the same theme two years ago, but the thread is now closed: http://christianforums.com/t2919629 (http://christianforums.com/t2919629)

Let me preface the thread by stating a few beliefs, so as to thwart anticipated baseless, hostile criticism.

1. I believe the 10 Commandments are the moral law of God and existed prior to God writing them on stone tablets at Sinai. (I can prove that all 10 existed and were known before Exodus 20.)

2. I also believe the 10 Commandments are TODAY still in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Yes, there is a sanctuary in heaven in which Jesus still mediates as High Priest as long as probation lasts.)

3. Due to the prior two beliefs, I believe that the 4th Commandment is still valid.

Here is the current International Dateline. The nations' days begin and end each week at that line.

http://www.sabbatarian.com/PhotosMisc/Dateline.jpg

To my knowledge, the worldwide church of Seventh-day Adventists only acknowledge this line as the beginning/ending of the sabbath. (This dateline was not created by the church; it was created by several powerful nations in the 1800's. This dateline has been moved on several occasions, altering the day on which the sabbath is observed. No Roman Pontiff or Sunday laws are needed in these cases to change the sabbath.)

Contrary to all political nations, "Halachic opinions" or factions within the Jewish community have over the years decided that the sabbath begins/ends at other locations. Notice the four lines in addition to the one shown above.

http://www.star-k.org/images/timezones.jpg

See a better quality, printable map here http://www.star-k.org/images/timezones.pdf (http://www.star-k.org/images/timezones.pdf)
and the article http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm (http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm)


On this thread there are 5 suggested datelines (4 Jewish, 1 Gentile).
The SDA Church REJECTS every dateline of Halachic opinion.
Which dateline is right? (All cannot be right, although all could be wrong.)

[Your Neighbor]

Here are more visuals:




http://www.sabbatarian.com/PhotosMisc/Dateline.gif

At any one moment there are actually two days on the Earth at the same time. A new day begins at mid-night on the International Dateline (if we agree that this is the place where days begin on the planet, and that a new day should start at midnight). It travels around the Earth, until 48 hours later it ends back at the International dateline.

http://members.aol.com/rotanasnem/truth/timeopt.gif

A History of the International Date Line
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm#The%20discovery%20of%20the%20date%20line (http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm#The%20discovery%20of%20the%20date%20line)

Again, On this thread there are 5 suggested datelines (4 Jewish, 1 Gentile).
The SDA Church REJECTS every dateline of Halachic opinion.
Which dateline is right? (All cannot be right, although all could be wrong.)

[djconklin]

The International Dateline isn't relevant unless you cross it. Sundown to sundown is how you keep the Sabbath where you live. God isn't going to ask a trick question of the judgment day and if you get it wrong: oh dear, you get toasted!

[honorthesabbath]

The International Dateline isn't relevant unless you cross it. Sundown to sundown is how you keep the Sabbath where you live. God isn't going to ask a trick question of the judgment day and if you get it wrong: oh dear, you get toasted!
ROFL--how true DJ--the Sabbath is Sabbath where YOU are at the moment. I'm not sure what the OP's point is here.

[RND]

Sundown to sundown. It's not all that complicated really.

[RND]

A new day begins at mid-night on the International Dateline.....

Nope. A new day begins at sundown and ends at sundown. This is so basic any attempt to change it is absolutely controverted.

Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The beast created the "new" way to keep track of the days.

[Your Neighbor]

The International Dateline isn't relevant unless you cross it. You totally ignored my question.

[Your Neighbor]

I'm not sure what the OP's point is here.You didn't answer the question, either.

[Your Neighbor]

Nope. A new day begins at sundown and ends at sundown. Not controverted.
Where does the sundown of Sabbath first come on the planet each week? You totally ignored my post and question.
Which is the right dateline? or none of the 5 suggested?

[Your Neighbor]

On this thread there are 5 suggested datelines (4 Jewish, 1 Gentile).
The SDA Church REJECTS every dateline of Halachic opinion.
Which dateline is right? (All cannot be right, although all could be wrong.)Here's the question, if you missed it in the first two posts.

[RND]

Not controverted.

I agree.

Where does the sundown of Sabbath first come on the planet each week?

Depends on where a particular sabbathkeeper happens to be in the world at the time the sun sets.

You totally ignored my post and question.

Nope. If I would have ignored your post I wouldn't have answered it. Proof that I answered it is proof I didn't ignore it. Now as for your question, "Which dateline is right?" I also answered it as well. You just didn't like my answer.

Which is the right dateline? or none of the 5 suggested?

Since "datelines" have nothing to do with when a day starts or ends I suppose you could 'guess' what my answer might be.

[Your Neighbor]

RND, you are posting hastily without thinking this through. You didn't digest the first two posts, imho.

WHERE does the sabbath first come on the planet? Why there?
WHICH country first gets the sabbath each week? Why this country?
Perhaps these questions will push you in the right direction.

[RND]

RND, you are posting hastily without thinking this through. You didn't digest the first two posts, imho.

Well, you know what they say about opinions.

WHERE does the sabbath first come on the planet?

Wherever the sabbathkeeper that observes the sabbath happens to be.

Why there?

Because that's where the sun is observed to be setting.

WHICH country first gets the sabbath each week?

None. There is no "first" sabbath of each week. There is only "one" sabbath each week.

Why this country?

Why what country.

Perhaps these questions will push you in the right direction.

And then again maybe they won't.

[honorthesabbath]

RND, you are posting hastily without thinking this through. You didn't digest the first two posts, imho.

WHERE does the sabbath first come on the planet? Why there?
WHICH country first gets the sabbath each week? Why this country?
Perhaps these questions will push you in the right direction.
How does one have a starting point on a globe? I think you are asking the impossible.

[RND]

How does one have a starting point on a globe? I think you are asking the impossible.

I agree HTS. If a Hebrew or other sabbathkeeper sees daylight on Friday, no matter where in the world they happen to be, the sabbath hasn't fallen. Once the sun goes down then it's the sabbath.

It's actually a silly argument when you think of it.

[ricker]

I agree HTS. If a Hebrew or other sabbathkeeper sees daylight on Friday, no matter where in the world they happen to be, the sabbath hasn't fallen. Once the sun goes down then it's the sabbath.

It's actually a silly argument when you think of it.

I may be wrong, but I don't think he is arguing anything. It's like a trivia question as far as I can see.

[RND]

I may be wrong, but I don't think he is arguing anything. It's like a trivia question as far as I can see.

He's suggesting that the sabbath starts at a particular place each and every sabbath. To that I agree. It's the where a sabbathkeeper happens to be at sundown that's relevant.

[honorthesabbath]

I agree HTS. If a Hebrew or other sabbathkeeper sees daylight on Friday, no matter where in the world they happen to be, the sabbath hasn't fallen. Once the sun goes down then it's the sabbath.

It's actually a silly argument when you think of it.

Yeah--thats what I thought too. Kind of mute on a globe, which is probably why the SDA church has rejected the date-line thingy.

[RND]

....which is probably why the SDA church has rejected the date-line thingy.

There's that 'common sense' thingy rearing it's ugly head again. ^_^

[Your Neighbor]

How does one have a starting point on a globe? We need a starting point and an ending point. Please, folks, read the posts carefully. Click on the links. Educate yourselves.

There are two dates/days happening on the globe right now! The dateline separates one day from another. See that 2nd post again. The SAME sunset (yes, you read that correctly: the same sunset) that brings the sabbath (Friday sunset) to people one mile west of the dateline brings Thursday sunset to people one mile east of the dateline. Such people two miles apart do not observe the same evening/morning as sabbath. And if you move that dateline eastward to run through the Atlantic rather than the Pacific, North Americans would need to observe the current Thursday evening/Friday day as the sabbath.

[RND]

The dateline separates one day from another.

Nope, the sundown separates one day from another.

See that 2nd post again. The SAME sunset (yes, you read that correctly: the same sunset) that brings the sabbath (Friday sunset) to people one mile west of the dateline brings Thursday sunset to people one mile east of the dateline. Such people two miles apart do not observe the same evening/morning as sabbath.

Um, that's incorrect. If it is Friday on one side of the line it's Saturday on the other.

Interesting, in that I live close to Los Angeles, my Adventist friends in New Zealand can still be observing the same sabbath I am observing even though it might be Friday where I am and Saturday where they are.

[Your Neighbor]

Your Neighbor: "Where does the sundown of Sabbath first come on the planet each week?"
RND: "Depends on where a particular sabbathkeeper happens to be in the world at the time the sun sets."
No.

Let me ask the same question in another manner:
Which Seventh-day Adventist church on the planet sings the Doxology on sabbath before other SDA's in the world? What's the name of the church and where is it located?

[Your Neighbor]

...my Adventist friends in New Zealand can still be observing the same sabbath I am observing even though it might be Friday where I am and Saturday where they are.No. The sunset that you end sabbath on is the sunset that ends Sunday for New Zealanders.

[Your Neighbor]

Nope, the sundown separates one day from another.It's the same sundown that separates two days/dates at the dateline. Wake up, brother. Welcome to 2008. All you need to do is look at the images that I posted in the first two posts. Look carefully near the dateline.

[RND]

Let me ask the same question in another manner: Which Seventh-day Adventist church on the planet sings the Doxology on sabbath before other SDA's in the world? What's the name of the church and where is it located?

Depends on when and where they are singing it.

[Your Neighbor]

... which is probably why the SDA church has rejected the date-line thingy.No, the SDA Church accepts the International Dateline (the one that 25 political nations suggested in 1884). The SDA Church does not agree with the Jews who have four other datelines. Why don't SDA's have the same sabbath as (some of the) Jews?

[Your Neighbor]

Depends on when and where they are singing it.On sabbath for weekly church services. Brother, you are playing with me or you have issues.

[RND]

No. The sunset that you end sabbath on is the sunset that ends Sunday for New Zealanders.

Nope. When it's 6pm in Los Angeles on Saturday (Sabbath ending) it's smack in the middle of the next day at 2:00pm on Sunday in New Zealand.

http://24timezones.com/

[RND]

It's the same sundown that separates two days/dates at the dateline.

And yet it can be sunset on Friday in Los Angeles at 6pm and 2pm in Aukland on the same sabbath day. Go figure.

Wake up, brother. Welcome to 2008. All you need to do is look at the images that I posted in the first two posts. Look carefully near the dateline.

I going to guess I'm not the one asleep in this conversation.

[RND]

On sabbath for weekly church services.

At my church services don't start until 11 am on saturday. Depending on the time of the year that could be a full 14-19 hours after the sabbath has begun.

Brother, you are playing with me or you have issues, mentally.

Um, that was completely uncalled for.

[Your Neighbor]

Nope. When it's 6pm in Los Angeles on Saturday (Sabbath ending) it's smack in the middle of the next day at 2:00pm on Sunday in New Zealand.

http://24timezones.com/I was speaking about the SUNSET that ends your day. Follow the sunset that ends your sabbath to New Zealand and you'll find that the same sunset ends Sunday for them.

[Your Neighbor]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/idl1995.gif

[Your Neighbor]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/idl199.gif

[Your Neighbor]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/timezones.jpg

[Your Neighbor]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/timezones-1.jpg

[RND]

I was speaking about the SUNSET that ends your day. Follow the sunset that ends your sabbath to New Zealand and you'll find that the same sunset ends Sunday for them.

Um, that's true all over the world.

[RND]

I hate to break this to you, even though it is something I, as well as countless other sabbathkeepers understand, and that is that the sabbath is not determined by time established by observation of a particular man-made dateline but simply when the sun goes down.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.

Easy.

[honorthesabbath]

I hate to break this to you, even though it is something I, as well as countless other sabbathkeepers understand, and that is that the sabbath is not determined by time established by observation of a particular man-made dateline but simply when the sun goes down.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.

Easy.
So RND--am I missing his point or is there a point to all this nonsense over Jews & time lines?

[RND]

So RND--am I missing his point or is there a point to all this nonsense over Jews & time lines?

HTS, it's something I've been scratching my head over as well. It honestly does not matter what man says about when or where the sabbath starts and ends. The only thing that matters is what God has to say about when and where the sabbath starts.

I have to say that any notion that the sabbath starts and ends based on a particular line drawn arbitrarily by man means absolutely nothing.

I have seen pictures of earth taken from space and in not one of those pictures does the earth have lines on it. Not one!

http://z.about.com/d/space/1/0/_/Q/earth_tour.jpg

[honorthesabbath]

Whoa--is that Katrina in the gulf?

[RND]

Whoa--is that Katrina in the gulf?

Yeah, I think it be.

[Your Neighbor]

HTS, it's something I've been scratching my head over as well. Keep scratching. You might comprehend something obviously new to you.


It honestly does not matter what man says about when or where the sabbath starts and ends. That is the purpose of this thread. Right now, the SDA Church does just what you say. They say the sabbath starts and ends at the dateline.

The only thing that matters is what God has to say about when and where the sabbath starts.Exactly.
Back to my questions earlier that you did not or could not answer.

I have to say that any notion that the sabbath starts and ends based on a particular line drawn arbitrarily by man means absolutely nothing.But that is exactly what is happening now, whether you realize it or not!

You are still in denial of the fact that there are two dates/days circling the globe right this minute.

[Your Neighbor]

...;am I missing his point or is there a point to all this nonsense over Jews & time lines?I think you don't have the sense yet, otherwise it wouldn't be nonsense.

In which country's capital city do SDA's experience Friday sunset before the rest of the world?
To answer that question, YOU must decide where the dateline is before making that calculation.
According to those who accept the current International Dateline, which includes the SDA Church, you can answer that question by finding the countries with the latest day/time in the week here: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/custom.html?sort=1&low=c
Check this out, too: http://www.worldtimezone.net/time-oceania24.php

When you look at this .gif file, imagine that the center is the North Pole and that the outer line of the circle is the Equator. In this case, everything you see within the circle represents the Northern Hemisphere. The U.S. state of Hawaii would be a couple time zones left of the dateline. The U.S. territory Guam would be a couple time zones right of the dateline.

http://members.aol.com/rotanasnem/truth/timeopt.gif

[honorthesabbath]

I think you don't have the sense yet, otherwise it wouldn't be nonsense.

In which country's capital city do SDA's experience Friday sunset before the rest of the world?
To answer that question, YOU must decide where the dateline is before making that calculation.
According to those who accept the current International Dateline, which includes the SDA Church, you can answer that question by finding the countries with the latest day/time in the week here: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/cu...l?sort=1&low=c (http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/custom.html?sort=1&low=c)
Check this out, too: http://www.worldtimezone.net/time-oceania24.php

When you look at this .gif file, imagine that the center is the North Pole and that the outer line of the circle is the Equator. In this case, everything you see within the circle represents the Northern Hemisphere. The U.S. state of Hawaii would be a couple time zones left of the dateline. The U.S. territory Guam would be a couple time zones right of the dateline.

And why is ANY of this important to you?

But that is exactly what is happening now, whether you realize it or not!
You are still in denial of the fact that there are two dates/days circling the globe right this minute.

DAH--so what? I have saeen this argument before, but it was always to dispute the validity of the Sabbath. So what is your angle? Are you angry because the Adventists don't go along with YOU?

[RND]

Keep scratching. You might comprehend something obviously new to you.

Oh, I comprehend what you are saying the difference is I disagree. You're assuming that because I disagree with you I somehow can't understand you.

That is the purpose of this thread. Right now, the SDA Church does just what you say. They say the sabbath starts and ends at the dateline.

Nope.

20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

Exactly.
Back to my questions earlier that you did not or could not answer.

Or that you failed to acept as answered. Again, just because something was not answered to your satisfaction doesn't mean it wasn't answered.

But that is exactly what is happening now, whether you realize it or not!

Nope.

You are still in denial of the fact that there are two dates/days circling the globe right this minute.

Nope.

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44439685#post44439685)
The International Dateline isn't relevant unless you cross it.

You totally ignored my question.

You asked which dateline should we use. I answered--it isn't relevant unless you cross it. The day doesn't begin or end with any dateline. No calender was ever made that used the dateline as a reference point. Thus, I didn't ignore your question.

[djconklin]

You are still in denial of the fact that there are two dates/days circling the globe right this minute.

Your own graphic--which is great BTW! Thanks for posting it!--disproves that claim.

[RND]

Your own graphic--which great BTW! Thanks for posting it!--disproves that claim.


http://members.aol.com/rotanasnem/truth/timeopt.gif

If you catch it the graphic counts Wednesday as still being Tuesday and continues to count the time for Wednesday as being Tuesday time.

This is a very confussed graphic.

[djconklin]

ROFL! If you catch the graphic at just the right time there's only one day! I guess that's what I was seeing. In any case, at no time are there two full days on the earth at the same time. There's the opening half of one preceded by the closing half of the next.

[RND]

ROFL! If you catch the graphic at just the right time there's only one day! I guess that's what I was seeing. In any case, at no time are there two full days on the earth at the same time. There's the opening half of one preceded by the closing half of the next.

Wait!

Maybe it's just Tuesday that has 48 hours? :scratch: Or was it Wednesday? :scratch:

[Your Neighbor]

And why is ANY of this important to you? It involves millions of people. It involves our SDA message. It involves the SDA understanding of the mark of the beast. Jesus cares.

[Your Neighbor]

You asked which dateline should we use. I answered--it isn't relevant unless you cross it. You are correct about when we cross it. But which dateline is "it"? Sabbath-keeping Jews disagree with SDA's as to when the sabbath is for millions of people on the planet. You should be able to discern this when you look at the 4 suggested datelines of Jews. It is relevant WHERE it is because the people on either side of it are affected. It could change the reckoning of when the seventh-day sunset comes.

The day doesn't begin or end with any dateline. Sure it does. What several (all?) of you reading this need to understand is that it is the SAME SUNSET that is either bringing one day or another. You all keep saying that the sunset of the seventh day starts the sabbath. It's true in one sense. But what day is which? If I was standing over the dateline facing north at sunset, my left foot would be in one day, but my right foot would be in another day. The same sunset. So you can't say the "day doesn't begin or end with any dateline. "

[thecountrydoc]

I certainly hope you never call anyone else a "legalist." I think a new meaning has been given to the word.

Respectfully,
Doc

[Your Neighbor]

Your own graphic--which is great BTW! It is. It's not mine, though. I found it online.

Thanks for posting it!--disproves that claim. No, it doesn't. Let me explain. Right now, it is either Monday, March 10 or Tuesday, March 11. Even though there is just one 24 hour evening/morning. The dateline separates March 10 from the 11th. The dateline separates Monday from Tuesday. Remember, the same sunset brings both days, depending on what side of the line you are on.

[RND]

Remember, the same sunset brings both days, depending on what side of the line you are on.

In that case isn't the sun of a new day called a "sunrise?"

[Your Neighbor]

I certainly hope you never call anyone else a "legalist." I think a new meaning has been given to the word.

Respectfully,
Doc C'mon, now, doc. Don't you agree with the SDA position on the mark of the beast? Isn't knowing what day it is important? Is it "legalist" to know which day is which on every inhabited land?

[Your Neighbor]

In that case isn't the sun of a new day called a "sunrise?"Sunrise - OK. Let's talk about sunrise, if that helps.
Sunrise at the dateline works the same way. The left foot greets Sunday morning but the right foot greets Saturday morning. Same sunrise. What makes the difference? Which side of the line you are on. Move that dateline over a country or two, and you have just changed the day that is reckoned as the sabbath for many souls. This has already happened in the Philippines, Alaska, Samoa, Fiji, & Kiribati. See http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm (http://www.phys.uu.nl/%7Evgent/idl/idl.htm)

SDA's worship on Sunday in Tonga because of this kind of moving of the dateline. "Accordingly, Tonga is the only place in the world where Seventh-day Adventists observe their Sabbath on Sunday." http://www.frommers.com/destinations/tonga/3039020416.html
"The International Date Line forms a loop around the islands, thereby making them a day ahead of Samoa, even though Samoa is almost due north of Tonga. Members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church therefore maintain that a Tongan Sunday is really a Saturday..." http://www.usatoday.travel-guides.com/Country.jsp?continent=aus&country=ton

In the 1960s, our people were shocked to read, in the latest issue of the National Geographic, that our churches in Tonga (earlier called the Friendly Islands) were keeping the Bible Sabbath on Sunday.
"Tongans are scrupulous observers of the Wesleyan Sabbath, and it is possible to be arrested for fishing on Sunday. Even the Seventh-day Adventists, who elsewhere take Saturday as their Sabbath, here observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The local Adventist pastor explained his church's stand to me.
" 'When God made the world, He made the day go from west to east,' he said. 'On the map, the so-called Date Line actually makes a jog to the east here. We maintain that what is called Sunday in Tonga is actually Saturday, since we are really on the eastern side of the Date Line ."--Luis [I]Mrden, "The Friendly Isles of Tonga, National Geographic, March 1968, p. 358.

[RND]

Sunrise - OK. Let's talk about sunrise, if that helps.
Sunrise at the dateline works the same way. The left foot greets Sunday morning but the right foot greets Saturday morning. Same sunrise. What makes the difference? Which side of the line you are on.

But I'm in L.A. (the area of it anyway). I'm not standing, nor have I ever stood on the international date line. I have what I feel is a foolproof method for determining when the sabbath starts and ends, it called the Bible. It starts Friday at sundown and ends Saturday at sundown. No clocks, watches, or silly puddy needed. I can simply look out my window.

Move that dateline over a country or two, and you have just changed the day that is reckoned as the sabbath for many souls.

Nope. They can just use the same foolproof method I use! :thumbsup:

[ricker]

C'mon, now, doc. Don't you agree with the SDA position on the mark of the beast? Isn't knowing what day it is important? Is it "legalist" to know which day is which on every inhabited land?
You have a legitimate observation, Neighbor, and the SDA's on this forum are intentionally ignoring it and trying to get you to get flustered and give for some unknown reason. I don't think this observation and question of yours invalidates Sabbath observance in any way, so I don't know what thier intentional obtrusiveness in the matter is all about. General paranoia, I would imagine.

[Your Neighbor]

...It starts Friday at sundown and ends Saturday at sundown. No clocks, watches, or silly puddy needed. RND, the only reason it is Friday at sundown in LA is because the dateline is west of LA. If the dateline moved east of LA, let's say through the Atlantic, the same evening/morning weekly cycle that begins this Friday at sundown would be Thursday at sundown next week. http://www.dailywav.com/0599/gonads.wav

[Your Neighbor]

You have a legitimate observation, Neighbor, You bet I do.
... and the SDA's on this forum are intentionally ignoring it. You bet they are. But I am SDA, too. Traditional. Conservative. Believer in 1844, the IJ, the SOP, health reform, dress reform, etc... Look at my signature.

[RND]

RND, the only reason it is Friday at sundown in LA is because the dateline is west of LA. If the dateline moved east of LA, let's say through the Atlantic, the same evening/morning weekly cycle that begins this Friday at sundown would be Thursday at sundown next week.

The point is no matter where Friday at sundown is the sabbath starts.

If you still, after all these posts and graphics, don't get this fact, you probably missed a few too many days in middle school. :sigh:

Uh, that was a completely unneccessary comment. Just because your post is difficult at best to understand doesn't mean one is uneducated.

[Your Neighbor]

RND, take a trip to Tonga and look out the window and try to tell the Tongans which day is which. ...Move that dateline over a country or two, and you have just changed the day that is reckoned as the sabbath for many souls. This has already happened in the Philippines, Alaska, Samoa, Fiji, & Kiribati. See http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm (http://www.phys.uu.nl/%7Evgent/idl/idl.htm)

SDA's worship on Sunday in Tonga because of this kind of moving of the dateline. "Accordingly, Tonga is the only place in the world where Seventh-day Adventists observe their Sabbath on Sunday." http://www.frommers.com/destinations/tonga/3039020416.html

"The International Date Line forms a loop around the islands, thereby making them a day ahead of Samoa, even though Samoa is almost due north of Tonga. Members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church therefore maintain that a Tongan Sunday is really a Saturday..." http://www.usatoday.travel-guides.com/Country.jsp?continent=aus&country=ton

In the 1960s, our people were shocked to read, in the latest issue of the National Geographic, that our churches in Tonga (earlier called the Friendly Islands) were keeping the Bible Sabbath on Sunday.

"Tongans are scrupulous observers of the Wesleyan Sabbath, and it is possible to be arrested for fishing on Sunday. Even the Seventh-day Adventists, who elsewhere take Saturday as their Sabbath, here observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The local Adventist pastor explained his church's stand to me.
" 'When God made the world, He made the day go from west to east,' he said. 'On the map, the so-called Date Line actually makes a jog to the east here. We maintain that what is called Sunday in Tonga is actually Saturday, since we are really on the eastern side of the Date Line ."--Luis [I]Mrden, "The Friendly Isles of Tonga, National Geographic, March 1968, p. 358.

[Your Neighbor]

...Uh, that was a completely unneccessary comment. Maybe it isn't necessary, but you have made it obvious.
Who is flaming whom? This topic is over your head, with all due respect. That's not a flame.

[RND]

RND, take a trip to Tonga and look out the window and try to tell the Tongans which day is which.

When the sun goes down on Friday in Tonga, what day is it to the Tongans?

[Your Neighbor]

The point is no matter where Friday at sundown is the sabbath starts. But what one calls Friday may be Saturday or Thursday. You don't get that, do you?

[RND]

Maybe it isn't necessary, but you have made it obvious.

The sabbath is not measured by a day determined by midnight to midnight chronology. It is measured by sundown to sundown Bible chronology. There is a huge difference and yet it is so simple even a child can understand it.

Who is flaming whom?

Will leave that to the mods to decide.

[Your Neighbor]

When the sun goes down on Friday in Tonga, what day is it to the Tongans? Ha, ha. That's just the point. In 2008, Friday at sundown is considered Thursday at sundown for SDA's, in their weekly day count. But that's not the way it used to be.

[AndrewK788]

All I know our God is an awesome God and he never gave us the Sabbath with the intent of loopholes to snare us in. God judges one's heart, not what time of day it is. If one kept the Sabbath and found out the next day you actually had not kept the Sabbath but it was in fact Sunday, I don't think our Lord will hold that against you.

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." Titus 3:9

"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." 2 Timothy 2:23

There's my 2 cents.

[Your Neighbor]

... If one kept the Sabbath and found out the next day you actually had not kept the Sabbath but it was in fact Sunday, I don't think our Lord will hold that against you.I agree. But what we are talking about is not something that is done ignorantly, at least in the future, especially in the light of what SDA's teach in regard to the mark of the beast and Sunday legislation. Papal sabbath or sabbath of the LORD; first day of the week or seventh day of the week. (In Tonga, could both days be the same? In other countries, too?)

[RND]

But what one calls Friday may be Saturday or Thursday. You don't get that, do you?

Nope.

A day is either the next day or the same day that is being observed.

For example at anyone time in the world there is either Monday or Sunday/Sunday or Saturday/Saturday or Friday/Friday or Thursday/Thursday or Wednesday/Wednesday or Tuesday/Tuesday or Monday.

Never, ever is it Monday in one part of the world and Wednesday or Saturday in another. Never.

In fact, when it's 11:45pm on Tuesday in Pago Pago, New Guinea it's Tuesday at 12:45am in Honolulu, Hawaii. So interestingly, for a brief moment in time it's the same day all over the world.

But when it comes to the sabbath it all starts at sundown....no matter where one is at.

[Your Neighbor]

but true!http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/idl199.gif

[RND]

Ha, ha. That's just the point. In 2008, Friday at sundown is considered Thursday at sundown for SDA's, in their weekly day count. But that's not the way it used to be.

You mean they don't have Friday's in Tonga?

[RND]

http://graphicmaps.com/aatlas/infopage/dateln.gif

http://thismatter.com/money/forex/images/international_dateline.gif

[Your Neighbor]

You mean they don't have Friday's in Tonga?The day that Tongans (non-SDA's) call Friday, Adventist Tongans call Friday, too. But Adventists consider Friday the 5th day of the week. Does that make any sense to you?

Adventist on Tonga consider Sunday as the seventh day of the week.

[Your Neighbor]

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/dateln.gif
huh?

[RND]

but true!

Intent.

For months at a time there is no sunrise or sunset for folks at the top or bottom of the world.

Does their sabbath last months? Or do they celebrate the sabbath only once every few months?


The International Dateline
and the Weekly Sabbath
© Carl D. Franklin
November 26, 2004 (http://www.cbcg.org/international_dateline.htm)

Some have expressed the opinion that the International Dateline has led to observance of the weekly Sabbath on the wrong day in part of the world. They believe that Sabbath keepers in the nations east of Jerusalem, between Jerusalem (longitude 35 degrees) and the International Dateline (longitude 180 degrees), are observing the weekly Sabbath one day too early. Their belief is based on the assumption that those living eastward from Jerusalem should not begin observing the weekly Sabbath before Jerusalem does. They maintain that only those living westward from Jerusalem to the International Dateline are observing the Sabbath at the proper time. In their view, people in these countries should continue to observe the weekly Sabbath on Saturday, but those living eastward from Jerusalem should keep the weekly Sabbath on Sunday.

Let’s consider how Sabbath observance in Australia would be affected by this proposed change. At the present, Australians begin to observe the weekly Sabbath 9 hours before it arrives in Jerusalem, allowing an overlap of 15 hours of shared Sabbath observance between Sydney and Jerusalem. Let us assume that Australians decide to postpone their observance of the weekly Sabbath one day and keep it from sunset Saturday evening to sunset Sunday evening. Doing so would theoretically correct the day “lost” due to the present placement of the International Dateline and would resolve the supposed problem of Sabbath observance beginning in Sydney before it begins at Jerusalem.

If such a change were instituted at the beginning of 2005, here is what would take effect: The sun at Sydney would set at 8:10 PM Saturday evening, January 1, beginning the first day of the week. When “Sabbath” observance began in Sydney it would be 11:10 AM Saturday morning in Jerusalem—the Sabbath day having begun there at sunset, 4:46 PM Friday evening. The Sabbath day in Jerusalem would end at 4:46 PM Saturday evening, corresponding to Sunday, 1:45 AM Sydney time. The new Sunday “Sabbath” of Sydney would overlap the Sabbath of Jerusalem from 11:10 AM to 4:46 PM Jerusalem time, a period of 5 hours and 36 minutes. Thus the present overlap of 15 hours of shared Sabbath observance would be reduced by nearly two thirds. Moreover, Sabbath keepers would be observing the first day of the week—not the seventh day.

Would moving the International Dateline to the vicinity of Jerusalem correct this problem, as has been proposed? Some would have the dateline run through the middle of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Others say that it should run along the eastern border of the State of Israel. Another view is that the dateline should run through modern Iraq, the proclaimed site of the ancient Garden of Eden. Supporters of these views claim that moving the International Dateline would enable those living at the longitude of Jerusalem to be the first in the world to begin Sabbath observance, and the rest of the world would observe the Sabbath as it came to them.

Would instituting this change in the International Dateline make the Sabbath arrive in Jerusalem before it arrives in Australia? Suppose the IDL were moved westward from the 180th meridian to the 35th meridian, which runs through the State of Israel. The Sabbath would still begin at sunset, Friday evening, January 1, at 4:46 PM in Israel. What time and day would it be in Sydney? Well, it would still be 1:45 AM, Saturday morning, which means that the Sabbath day would still begin in Sydney before arriving in Jerusalem. Why is this so? Because the world revolves counterclockwise on its axis once every 24 hours, and the weekly cycle of seven 24-hour days cannot be changed.

The only way for an Australian to begin observing the seventh day of the week after it arrives in Jerusalem is to travel to a point west of Jerusalem and remain there until the sun sets on Friday. The Australian could then begin observing the Sabbath after those living in Jerusalem. He cannot do so as long as he is in Australia. It is impossible to do so in Australia because Friday sunset reaches the Sabbath keeper in Australia before it does the Sabbath keeper in Jerusalem. The only way to make the Sabbath arrive in Jerusalem before it arrives in Australia would be to reverse the rotation of the earth.

Moving the International Dateline to Jerusalem cannot change the sequence of the days in the weekly cycle. Doing so would, however, throw Jerusalem into incredible turmoil! Imagine the hustle and bustle at sunset in Jerusalem. On the west side of the IDL it would begin the Sabbath, while on the east side of the line it would begin Friday. The west side of Jerusalem could travel to the east side and conduct business as usual. Likewise, 24 hours later, Saturday evening would arrive for the west side of Jerusalem while the Sabbath was just beginning on the east side. Jews could travel to the west side and business could go on as usual.

This scenario could occur anywhere on the earth if the International Dateline were located across a continent or large land mass rather than across an expanse of water, as it is now. Jewish authorities are well aware of this fact. They have already considered the issues involved in Sabbath observance in various parts of the world, especially for Jewish businessmen who must cross the International Dateline on a regular basis. The following article shows the problems that would result if the IDL were relocated, as some rabbis feel it should be.

[Your Neighbor]

Do a double take.http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/dateln-1.gif
It's the same sunset that brings sabbath to Kiribati that brings Friday to Hawaii. Surely, you see this now?
Part of the islands of Kiribati used to be on the other side of the dateline in 1999. Their week count has been changed, too.

[Your Neighbor]

All of these images assume that the International dateline is the right one. If any of the other 4 Jewish datelines are right, the day count would differ for many countries.

[RND]

Do a double take.http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii155/theraed/dateln-1.gif
It's the same sunset that brings sabbath to Kiribati that brings Friday to Hawaii. Surely, you see this now?
Part of the islands of Kiribati used to be on the other side of the dateline in 1999. Their week count has been changed, too.

It makes -zero- difference. They are observing the sabbath.

So that the nation of Kiribati can be on the same time throughout their nation they have one time zone. Otherwise, the nation would be split in two with one part of the nation always being one day ahead of the other.

There are roughly 105,000 people in the nation. It's estimated that there are about 2% SDA in the thirty two island chain. Fortunately they still have a sabbath. God has provided.

[RND]

All of these images assume that the International dateline is the right one. If any of the other 4 Jewish datelines are right, the day count would differ for many countries.

They would also split nations and cause greater headaches for more people, not less, if the date lines were changed.

[Your Neighbor]

They would also split nations and cause greater headaches for more people, not less, if the date lines were changed.They have been changed several times already. Headaches, indeed. Alaska used to keep their day count with Russia. Just think if the Asians would have discovered the New World before the Europeans. American SDA's would be observing the sabbath one day sooner, because the dateline would have been placed in the Atlantic Ocean rather than the Pacific.

[RND]

They have been changed several times already. Headaches, indeed. Alaska used to keep their day count with Russia. Just think if the Asians would have discovered the New World before the Europeans. American SDA's would be observing the sabbath one day sooner, because the dateline would have been placed in the Atlantic Ocean rather than the Pacific.

As it stands now, the current system impacts the least amount of people possible, since most people down live on small islands and atolls in the middle of the Pacific.

Any situation that changes the time line to go over large expanses of land would create numerous headaches and problems.

[reddogs]

As it stands now, the current system impacts the least amount of people possible, since most people down live on small islands and atolls in the middle of the Pacific.

Any situation that changes the time line to go over large expanses of land would create numerous headaches and problems.

Seems like a we need a 'picket fence' out in the ocean....;)

[RND]

Seems like a we need a 'picket fence' out in the ocean....;)
^_^

[EGW]

Seems like a we need a 'picket fence' out in the ocean....;)Yeah, but maybe in the Atlantic. Who were the 25 nations to decide for the rest of the world where the days begin/end? Does God have anything to say about it? Or are those nations His voice?

[freeindeed2]

They have been changed several times already. Headaches, indeed. Alaska used to keep their day count with Russia. Just think if the Asians would have discovered the New World before the Europeans. American SDA's would be observing the sabbath one day sooner, because the dateline would have been placed in the Atlantic Ocean rather than the Pacific.
Your Neighbor, what you've presented is completely valid and relevant. It has been largely ignored, which is a shame for groups that are dogmatic about what day they 'do church'.

[RND]

Your Neighbor, what you've presented is completely valid and relevant. It has been largely ignored, which is a shame for groups that are dogmatic about what day they 'do church'.

And yet some of those 'dogmatic' allow for intent and motivation to be judged by a 'higher source.'

[freeindeed2]

And yet some of those 'dogmatic' allow for intent and motivation to be judged by a 'higher source.'
The same higher source that commanded rest on a specific day to a specific group in a specific location where the breaking thereof was punishable by death?

In CHRIST alone...

[Dania]

to much science and geo.. cho!!!
sundown to sundown anywhere u are. the seventhday. aint the seventh day the seventh day for all.. cho too technical.

[tall73]

All I know our God is an awesome God and he never gave us the Sabbath with the intent of loopholes to snare us in. God judges one's heart, not what time of day it is. If one kept the Sabbath and found out the next day you actually had not kept the Sabbath but it was in fact Sunday, I don't think our Lord will hold that against you.

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." Titus 3:9

"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." 2 Timothy 2:23

There's my 2 cents.

If Sabbath is the end time test then his controversy is not foolish.

[tall73]

The same higher source that commanded rest on a specific day to a specific group in a specific location where the breaking thereof was punishable by death?

In CHRIST alone...

Perhaps the Sabbath was meant to work IN Israel.

[mva1985]

to much science and geo.. cho!!!
sundown to sundown anywhere u are. the seventhday. aint the seventh day the seventh day for all.. cho too technical.
I go along with this. Sundown to Sundown where you are located. I don't think God has a problem with that. He knows the intent of the heart.

The rest of you are arguing over technicalities.

[Your Neighbor]

As shown in the OP, there are 4 Halachic opinions as to where the dateline should be. Why should Christian sabbath-keepers reject the Jewish opinions and then turn around and accept the Gentiles' decision?

[Your Neighbor]

Christian sabbath-keepers...hello?

[Your Neighbor]

This thread needs to live more.
Don't sweep it under the rug.

[Your Neighbor]

How does one have a starting point on a globe? I think you are asking the impossible. But "we" do have a starting point on the globe. It IS the International Dateline. To my knowledge, every SDA Church Conference, with the exception of those on Tonga, believe that God is delighted with that choice.

[mva1985]

But "we" do have a starting point on the globe. It IS the International Dateline. To my knowledge, every SDA Church Conference, with the exception of those on Tonga, believe that God is delighted with that choice.
I'll bite.... what is your point?

At what time do you start your Sabbath?

[Your Neighbor]

I'll bite.... what is your point?

At what time do you start your Sabbath? Chomp.
Yes. That is the point. When do I start my sabbath?
Unless you are near the Middle East, the sabbath you observe is based on where you agree to put a dateline, whether you like it or not!

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

for once it agrees with the trads.
good grief, what a tempest in a teapot!

[Bourbaki]

http://www.sabbatarian.com/PhotosMisc/Dateline.jpg

Which dateline is right? (All cannot be right, although all could be wrong.)

The problem is purely mathematical. There is simply no way to define the Seventh-day Sabbath globally and continuously so that the Sabbath at every location on Earth can be defined by the Biblical sundown to sundown formula.