What are you guys? :)

[Amandine]

So, I'm helping out at vacation bible school right, and the preschool section is being held at my town's Lutheran church. I found it rather interesting b/c I hadn't been to a Lutheran church before. It seemed like a mix between my childhood Presybterian church and a very plain Catholic one. After looking through a Sunday bulletin I found it the liturgy reminded me faintly of the Orthodox churches I go to at school. Since bad girl lazy me has been lax about attending church because all the "cool ones" (ie Apostolic :)) are far away, I thought maybe it wouldn't hurt if I attend the Lutheran one. I don't know your stance on a lot of things though....do you believe in the real prescence? what is your view of clergy and church government? are your doctrines closely connected to the thoughts and writings of Luther (I'm not really a fan of his)? How do you feel about the Early Church Fathers of the East and their views on things (theosis, uncreated vs created, human nature)? Do you say the creed with the filoque in it?
-Catherine

[Phoebe]

We are somtimes referred to as Catholic- Light. All the forgiveness with half the guilt. ;)
I'll let someone else field most of these questions.
We do believe in Real Presence, but we don't call it Transubstantiation.

[theologia crucis]

Howdy, Catherine!

all the "cool ones" (ie Apostolic:) ) are far away

Lutherans consider ourselves apostolic, i.e., we teach the same doctrines the Apostles taught. How do we know these doctrines? From their writings. And we do think we are pretty cool!

do you believe in the real prescence?

Yes, we do. We believe that in Holy Communion that in the bread, Christ's very body is truly present. We believe that in the wine, Christ's very blood is present. We do not believe in transubstantiation, where the bread and the wine turn into the Body and Blood, respectively. We believe all four "elements" are present during the Eucharist.

what is your view of clergy and church government?

It varies from group to group. Historic Lutheranism believes in all-male clergy and a "decentralized government", though there is usually an elected head. We take the priesthood of all believers very seriously. Some Lutheran groups do have female clergy and a more hierarchical structure.

are your doctrines closely connected to the thoughts and writings of Luther (I'm not really a fan of his)?

No and yes. Our official doctrinal statement, the Book of Concord (www.bookofconcord.org), is composed of the following:

The Apostles Creed
The Nicene Creed
The Athanasian Creed
The Augsburg Confession (written by Phillip Melancthon; 1530)
The Apology (Defense) of the Augsburg Confession (written by Melancthon; 1531)
The Smalcald Articles (written by Martin Luther;1537)
Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope (written by Melancthon; 1537)
The Small Catechism (written by Luther; 1529)
The Large Catechism (written by Luther; 1529)
The Formula of Concord (Epitome and Solid Declaration; written by Jakob Andreae,
Nicholas Selnecker, Andrew Musculus, Christopher Körner, David Chytraeus & Martin Chemnitz; 1580)

We believe, teach and confess this group of writings correctly interprets Scripture. But, Scripture alone is the final judge of all writings, including these and Luther's.

While many of Luther's writings are truly outstanding and are quite Scriptural, his own personal interpretations and prejudices are NOT in our theology, because they are not entirely Scriptural, though the amount of these are quite small (Mary, the Jews, etc.), and in a large part are a reflection of the times he lived, where life was "nasty, brutish, and short."

Also, Luther did NOT want the people that believed what he taught to be true according to the Scriptures to be called "Lutheran". He wanted them to call themselves Christian. If not Christian, than "Evangelical", since we proclaim the Gospel with such clarity. Lutherans were the first group of Christians to be called Evangelicals, and in Germany, we are still called that. The name Lutheran really didn't take hold until after the 30 Years War, if memory serves. It was also first used as a derogatory term by Catholics.

But, since so much of Luther's writings followed the contours of Scripture, whereever they took him (and take us). Our doctrine follows that lead (because it is correct), and so it's not fare to the man to distance ourselves too much from him.

How do you feel about the Early Church Fathers of the East and their views on things (theosis, uncreated vs created, human nature)?

You need someone more read and smarter than me to answer this correctly. Though, if a Church Father is Scriptural in his presentation, we have no problem with it, East or West, early or modern. Most of the early Lutheran theologians were actually quite well versed in the Church Fathers. There is an appendix to the Book of Concord that is called the Catalog of Testimonies that cites both the Patristics and Scriptures to show that what our theologians came up with was NOT something new to the 16th century, but was there origianally, but eventually obscured over time.

Do you say the creed with the filoque in it?

Yes, we include the Filioque in the Nicene Creed.

Anything else?

[Lotar]

Theo got to it before me!!! :D
I'll try to expound ;)

are your doctrines closely connected to the thoughts and writings of Luther (I'm not really a fan of his)?
Have you read any of his works? You might be surprised.


How do you feel about the Early Church Fathers of the East and their views on things (theosis, uncreated vs created, human nature)?
On theosis, how similair we are depends upon who you ask. Some say we believe basically the same thing, others say we are way way different. We do not believe in created grace, the ECF of both the East and West do not support this, it is a later Roman invention. We follow with fathers like St. Augustine and St. Ambrose when it comes to election and human nature.

While we are aligned more closely with the Western Fathers, we do not ignore the Eastern Fathers, Chrysostom, Basil, etc.

[ByzantineDixie]

We do not believe in created grace, the ECF of both the East and West do not support this, it is a later Roman invention.

Hey Lotar, what is created grace? Thanks-----R

[Lotar]

I don't fully understand the definition of created grace. Basically it is them gaining merit from works and doing various things declared by bishops/popes/etc. So Christ offers the oppertunity to be saved, but it is actualized by this created grace.

This is one of the reasons why when they say, "we believe in grace alone," it means something completely different. It is also why even though both EO and RC say they believe in faith + works, they are in as much disagreement with eachother as we are with RC. Most EO look upon works as a means of grace, not them creating their own merit, etc.

Created grace is pretty much completely unique to Romans.