What is a soul?

[TrustAndObey]

I believe that the bible makes it very clear that a soul is a living human being, not a separate entity that lives within us.

I have tons of scripture to show why I feel this way and and I'd be happy to supply it if anyone wants to see it.

I think I'm just unclear as to what some people think a soul is. It's almost like they think it's a separate person or entity within us that we have no control over???

If a soul is some kind of inner self that's capable of leaving our bodies at death to LIVE on without our bodies, I have yet to see scripture for that.

I'd really like to see scripture that says a soul (or spirit for that matter) can walk, talk, think, etc outside of a living human body.

What I do see in scripture is that souls can be gathered, bought, they can touch things, eat food, hate certain foods (white bread no less), lie, lust, and die. I also see where the grave is for the soul and that a soul can be destroyed by other humans.

If it's an inner self that we aren't consciously aware of, it's scary to think we could be held accountable for what that inward self does without our knowledge that could cause us to be cut off from God.

Just curious as to what others think a soul is and why there seems to be so many differing opinions about this subject.

[AndrewK788]

I think I agree with the way you view it. I don't believe the soul is an entity that can exist separate from the body.

[Jimlarmore]

The word/s for soul are used over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time does it say that a soul is immortal or undying. On the contrary it says in Ezek 18:4 that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So the Bible clearly tells us that souls can die and are not immortal at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[TrustAndObey]

The word/s for soul are used over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time does it say that a soul is immortal or undying. On the contrary it says in Ezek 18:4 that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So the Bible clearly tells us that souls can die and are not immortal at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I totally agree Jim, but what is your opinion of what a soul IS, as defined by scripture.

[Jon0388g]

I also see where the grave is for the soul and that a soul can be destroyed by other humans.

Careful sis.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28


The Bible tells us that the spirit + flesh = living soul. Take away any one of these, and the soul ceases to live.


However, the soul of a human is the seat of our emotions, our personality - many texts make this clear. I believe it is our soul which sleeps when we die the first death. Mrs White says the same spirit of rebellion and hatred the villains of old went to the grave with, the same spirit they are raised with. Nothing changes.


However, Christ makes it clear that no man can destroy the soul - something only God can accomplish, which He does at the judgment. The soul that sinneth shall die, as Jim rightfully quoted.



Jon

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Lainie,

I was preparing a draft on this very topic earlier. However when I hit preview the whole thing disappeared into cyber sapce. When I get it put back together I will post it here for your consideration.

YBIC,
Doc

[TrustAndObey]

Careful sis.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28


The Bible tells us that the spirit + flesh = living soul. Take away any one of these, and the soul ceases to live.


However, the soul of a human is the seat of our emotions, our personality - many texts make this clear. I believe it is our soul which sleeps when we die the first death. Mrs White says the same spirit of rebellion and hatred the villains of old went to the grave with, the same spirit they are raised with. Nothing changes.


However, Christ makes it clear that no man can destroy the soul - something only God can accomplish, which He does at the judgment. The soul that sinneth shall die, as Jim rightfully quoted.



Jon

But little bro, I think you missed my point.

Phone...brb.

[freeindeed2]

I'd really like to see scripture that says a soul (or spirit for that matter) can walk, talk, think, etc outside of a living human body.
I do not have the time to debate this right now, but as you presented it there is a falacy already present.

The soul that is 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' wouldn't have a body/legs/feet/mouths/brains/etc. to walk, talk, think, etc. SDAism is STUCK with a definition of the soul as being simply 'breath'. It's difficult to think outside that small box. Using a fair amount of objectivity (removing the SDA/EGW lens that SDA's view the universe through) should help in at least making strides in understanding what the Bible ACTUALLY says (or doesn't say) about the soul. The Bible is NOT black and white on this subject, and it's NOT salvic.

In CHRIST alone...

[TrustAndObey]

I do not have the time to debate this right now, but as you presented it there is a falacy already present.

The soul that is 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' wouldn't have a body/legs/feet/mouths/brains/etc. to walk, talk, think, etc. SDAism is STUCK with a definition of the soul as being simply 'breath'. It's difficult to think outside that small box. Using a fair amount of objectivity (removing the SDA/EGW lens that SDA's view the universe through) should help in at least making strides in understanding what the Bible ACTUALLY says (or doesn't say) about the soul. The Bible is NOT black and white on this subject, and it's NOT salvic.

In CHRIST alone...

LOL, who is in error here? Adventists don't believe the soul is breath. Where did you get that from? Not one of us have said that.

MAN became a living soul when a spirit was breathed into the dust of the ground. MAN is a living soul and man is not just "breath".

The soul that is 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' wouldn't have a body/legs/feet/mouths/brains/etc. to walk, talk, think, etc.

Agreed. I don't see where Paul ever states its the soul that is absent from the body though.

If the soul doesn't have legs or thought etc, then they certainly aren't enjoying heaven anyway.

I think you kind of proved my point from the other thread.

[TrustAndObey]

Okay little bro, here's some of the verses I'm referring to:

Psalms 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

Psalms 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces, while [there is] none to deliver.

There's more, but I'm tired.

Matthew 10:28 in no way negates that a soul CAN be destroyed by another human. HOWEVER, God is the only one that could destroy it forever. Amen?

Physical death is one thing, eternal death is another.

We're not to fear physical death, but oh yeah we should fear eternal death.

Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

[Jimlarmore]

I totally agree Jim, but what is your opinion of what a soul IS, as defined by scripture.

Good question sister. The Bible says in Gen 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."
So if we take all of the rhetorric the Bible provides us in this we can add up the components of what a soul is.

Perfectly formed dust + Breath of Life = living soul

Notice that the Bible says man became a living soul when all of the components came together. IT does not say man received a living soul as a separate entity. If you take away the breath of life what is left in our equation above? Dust and that is all. It's like a light bulb is not a light until the power is supplied then it can shine. Take away the power and it's no longer a functional light.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[TrustAndObey]

Good question sister. The Bible says in Gen 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."
So if we take all of the rhetorric the Bible provides us in this we can add up the components of what a soul is.

Perfectly formed dust + Breath of Life = living soul

Notice that the Bible says man became a living soul when all of the components came together. IT does not say man received a living soul as a separate entity. If you take away the breath of life what is left in our equation above? Dust and that is all. It's like a light bulb is not a light until the power is supplied then it can shine. Take away the power and it's no longer a functional light.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

We're totally eye-to-eye on this one for sure.

[freeindeed2]

LOL, who is in error here? Adventists don't believe the soul is breath. Where did you get that from? Not one of us have said that.

MAN became a living soul when a spirit was breathed into the dust of the ground. MAN is a living soul and man is not just "breath".
Straight out of the SDA curriculum for academies, and in theology/seminary classes from 3 different SDA universities.

Agreed. I don't see where Paul ever states its the soul that is absent from the body though.

If the soul doesn't have legs or thought etc, then they certainly aren't enjoying heaven anyway.
I didn't say anything about Paul, but aparently you know the passage I spoke of.

Also, you're limiting he 'soul' to being something that 'enjoys heaven'. My statement simply indicated that the 'soul' is NOT physical. Why would something have to be physical in order to exist. You're still thinking 'body, mind, legs, hands, feet, etc.'. We were created in the image of God (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit). If you believe this then there is certainly room in Scripture for us to be body(Jesus), mind(God), and soul(Holy Spirit).

I think you kind of proved my point from the other thread.
I don't know what thread you're referring to. Sorry.

In CHRIST alone...

[TrustAndObey]

Straight out of the SDA curriculum for academies, and in theology/seminary classes from 3 different SDA universities.

Are you mistaking spirit with soul when you say this?

Adventists believe that the spirit is the breath and life essence of a human being (soul), but we do not believe that a soul is merely breath.

Job's spirit was in his nostrils.

Jesus breathed on the disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20)

Adventists believe that a body and breath in the nostrils equals a living soul (Genesis 2:7). We also believe that without that breath (spirit) we are just dead bodies.

If you get the chance, look up some of these verses: Leviticus 21:11, Numbers 6:6, Numbers 9:6, Numbers 19:13. There's more but you'll get the general idea. In all of those verses, the word nephesh is translated to dead body.

The word nephesh is the same word translated to "soul" in other verses of the Old Testament.

I didn't say anything about Paul, but aparently you know the passage I spoke of.

Oh yeah, I know all the verses people use to say the soul has immortality before the resurrection.

Also, you're limiting he 'soul' to being something that 'enjoys heaven'. My statement simply indicated that the 'soul' is NOT physical. Why would something have to be physical in order to exist. You're still thinking 'body, mind, legs, hands, feet, etc.'. We were created in the image of God (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit). If you believe this then there is certainly room in Scripture for us to be body(Jesus), mind(God), and soul(Holy Spirit).

Then what is a soul? What does the BIBLE say it is? That's my question.

I don't know what thread you're referring to. Sorry.

Sorry about that. I thought right after I posted that and signed out, "he's not going to have any idea what I'm talking about." It's a thread I've been in all day with Lebesgue "Are there any SDAs out there that disagree with the doctrine of the state of the dead" right here in the D/D section.

[RND]

I do not have the time to debate this right now, but as you presented it there is a falacy already present.

The soul that is 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' wouldn't have a body/legs/feet/mouths/brains/etc. to walk, talk, think, etc. SDAism is STUCK with a definition of the soul as being simply 'breath'. It's difficult to think outside that small box. Using a fair amount of objectivity (removing the SDA/EGW lens that SDA's view the universe through) should help in at least making strides in understanding what the Bible ACTUALLY says (or doesn't say) about the soul. The Bible is NOT black and white on this subject, and it's NOT salvic.

In CHRIST alone...

free, which came first? 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 or 2 Corinthians 5:8?

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Was Paul needlessly confusing the Corinthians?

[Pythons]

TrustandObey,

I would like to offer another perspective, the historical Judeo-Christian perspective whose premise is based on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and History. I believe this premise warrants a particularly specific conclusion that disagrees with your current understanding.


The doctrines endemic to Judaism were not deposited completed and ready to consume like a dollop of mash potatoes dumped on your plate in a cafeteria line, they developed over time. Mash potatoes first need to be planted, grown, harvested and prepared before they reach the state familiar to all of us when they sit on our plate.

This analogy works the same way with Christian Doctrines and very few of them were dumped onto a plate already in mash potato form.


The understanding of Judaism at the time Ecclesiastes 9 was written denied dualistic belief that necessities belief in a person’s spirit. The author emphatically states that “the same destiny” overtakes both the wicked and the just and that “they both have no further reward”.

Because the Author of Ecclesiastes believed that God’s mercy and favors were metered out in the here and now (under the sun) in the same way the Sadducees did, then nothing existed after death. The Sadducees believed that the Pharisees had been perverted by Hellenism and therefore rejected prophecy and were very materialistic attempting to glue themselves to whatever ruling power existed next to them. This is a very important point to understand when moving forward from Ecclesiastes because the teaching from Our Lord Jesus Christ rejected the Sadducees in that He omitted them from the God Established Religious Authority tasked with teaching correct doctrines;


“Then spake Jesus to the multitudes, and to His disciples, Saying the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works; for they say and do not”. Matthew 23


Moses’ seat was very serious in Judaism because this teaching authority was tasked by God to “interpret” the books of the law and prophets to the masses so rejection of God’s Established Authority was tantamount to holding God in contempt (please read the whole Chapter of Numbers 16). Also important to note that while Jesus clearly said the Pharisees and Scribes were hypocrites He made it a point to remind the multitudes as well as His disciples to do whatever they said because while they didn’t practice what they preached they preached correct doctrines.


Now, here comes the kicker, Jesus believed in an immortal soul as did “all” Jews at that time (with the exception of the Sadducees).


“But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the Council, “Brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, a son of Pharisees; with the respect to the hope and resurrection of the dead I am on trial. And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees ; and the assembly was divided. FOR THE SADDUCEES SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, NOR ANGEL, NOR SPIRIT; BUT THE PHARISEES ACKNOWLEDGE THEM ALL”. Acts 23,6


“The poor man died and was carried by the angles to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom”. Luke 16,22


“And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power”. And He said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE”. Luke 23,42



“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE”. Luke 24,39



“Then said Samuel, “whenfore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord has departed from thee and is become thine enemy”. 1 Samuel 28,16


“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”. Matthew 10,28


“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as those which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. 1 Thessalonians 4,13


“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh , that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. MY DESIRE IS TO DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, FOR THAT IS FAR BETTER. But to REMAIN IN THE FLESH is more necessary on your account. Philippians 1,21


“For the Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”. Mark 14,21


I have went to the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and read the fundamental belief associated with this thread and believe it to be incorrect. It’s like Seventh-day Adventists have reverse engineered Ecclesiastes and attempted to bend what seems to me to be the clear teaching of the Prophets in the Old Testament and the explicit teachings of the New Testament, specifically Christ’s own words that the thief would be with him in Paradise on the very day Jesus was made a “quickening Spirit”.


Normally one would reverse engineer a completed machine to see how it is made but in this case (and I mean no disrespect) a non-doctrine was reverse engineered in order to destroy a crystal clear doctrine that Jesus and His Apostles unequivocally accepted.


Paul was a New Testament heavy-weight and he flat-out said he believed in Angels, the Resurrection and a spiritual soul. Paul said he would rather his soul leave his body (as in be dead) and be with Christ. If fundamental belief #26 of the General Conference is correct then Paul wouldn’t know if he was with Christ because he would be unconscious. Which reminds me of a Scripture that makes me cringe when I apply Seventh-day Adventist teaching to it;


“ And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city; and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their cloths at a young mans feet, whose name was Saul. And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord do not hold this against them”. And when he had said this he fell asleep”. Acts 7, 56


Stephen asks the Lord Jesus to receive his (Stephen’s) spirit and at the moment of death God strikes the spirit of Stephen a sharp blow rending it unconscious, because as the Sadducees say, there is no spirit.


I know this is a differing opinion about this subject but you did ask for it.

[Jon0388g]

Okay little bro, here's some of the verses I'm referring to:

Psalms 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

Psalms 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces, while [there is] none to deliver.

There's more, but I'm tired.

Matthew 10:28 in no way negates that a soul CAN be destroyed by another human. HOWEVER, God is the only one that could destroy it forever. Amen?

Physical death is one thing, eternal death is another.

We're not to fear physical death, but oh yeah we should fear eternal death.

Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.


Ok, I misunderstood.


Amen!!



Jon

[Jon0388g]

TrustandObey,

I would like to offer another perspective, the historical Judeo-Christian perspective whose premise is based on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and History. I believe this premise warrants a particularly specific conclusion that disagrees with your current understanding.


The doctrines endemic to Judaism were not deposited completed and ready to consume like a dollop of mash potatoes dumped on your plate in a cafeteria line, they developed over time. Mash potatoes first need to be planted, grown, harvested and prepared before they reach the state familiar to all of us when they sit on our plate.

This analogy works the same way with Christian Doctrines and very few of them were dumped onto a plate already in mash potato form.


The understanding of Judaism at the time Ecclesiastes 9 was written denied dualistic belief that necessities belief in a person’s spirit. The author emphatically states that “the same destiny” overtakes both the wicked and the just and that “they both have no further reward”.

Because the Author of Ecclesiastes believed that God’s mercy and favors were metered out in the here and now (under the sun) in the same way the Sadducees did, then nothing existed after death. The Sadducees believed that the Pharisees had been perverted by Hellenism and therefore rejected prophecy and were very materialistic attempting to glue themselves to whatever ruling power existed next to them. This is a very important point to understand when moving forward from Ecclesiastes because the teaching from Our Lord Jesus Christ rejected the Sadducees in that He omitted them from the God Established Religious Authority tasked with teaching correct doctrines;


“Then spake Jesus to the multitudes, and to His disciples, Saying the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works; for they say and do not”. Matthew 23


Moses’ seat was very serious in Judaism because this teaching authority was tasked by God to “interpret” the books of the law and prophets to the masses so rejection of God’s Established Authority was tantamount to holding God in contempt (please read the whole Chapter of Numbers 16). Also important to note that while Jesus clearly said the Pharisees and Scribes were hypocrites He made it a point to remind the multitudes as well as His disciples to do whatever they said because while they didn’t practice what they preached they preached correct doctrines.


Now, here comes the kicker, Jesus believed in an immortal soul as did “all” Jews at that time (with the exception of the Sadducees).


“But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the Council, “Brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, a son of Pharisees; with the respect to the hope and resurrection of the dead I am on trial. And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees ; and the assembly was divided. FOR THE SADDUCEES SAY THAT THERE IS NO RESURRECTION, NOR ANGEL, NOR SPIRIT; BUT THE PHARISEES ACKNOWLEDGE THEM ALL”. Acts 23,6


“The poor man died and was carried by the angles to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom”. Luke 16,22


“And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power”. And He said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE”. Luke 23,42



“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE”. Luke 24,39



“Then said Samuel, “whenfore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord has departed from thee and is become thine enemy”. 1 Samuel 28,16


“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”. Matthew 10,28


“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as those which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. 1 Thessalonians 4,13


“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh , that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. MY DESIRE IS TO DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, FOR THAT IS FAR BETTER. But to REMAIN IN THE FLESH is more necessary on your account. Philippians 1,21


“For the Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”. Mark 14,21


I have went to the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and read the fundamental belief associated with this thread and believe it to be incorrect. It’s like Seventh-day Adventists have reverse engineered Ecclesiastes and attempted to bend what seems to me to be the clear teaching of the Prophets in the Old Testament and the explicit teachings of the New Testament, specifically Christ’s own words that the thief would be with him in Paradise on the very day Jesus was made a “quickening Spirit”.


Normally one would reverse engineer a completed machine to see how it is made but in this case (and I mean no disrespect) a non-doctrine was reverse engineered in order to destroy a crystal clear doctrine that Jesus and His Apostles unequivocally accepted.


Paul was a New Testament heavy-weight and he flat-out said he believed in Angels, the Resurrection and a spiritual soul. Paul said he would rather his soul leave his body (as in be dead) and be with Christ. If fundamental belief #26 of the General Conference is correct then Paul wouldn’t know if he was with Christ because he would be unconscious. Which reminds me of a Scripture that makes me cringe when I apply Seventh-day Adventist teaching to it;


“ And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city; and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their cloths at a young mans feet, whose name was Saul. And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord do not hold this against them”. And when he had said this he fell asleep”. Acts 7, 56


Stephen asks the Lord Jesus to receive his (Stephen’s) spirit and at the moment of death God strikes the spirit of Stephen a sharp blow rending it unconscious, because as the Sadducees say, there is no spirit.


I know this is a differing opinion about this subject but you did ask for it.


Pythons,


This is quite a large post, could you break it down into smaller points so we could all discuss and go through them more thoroughly?


The main point that struck me is you're assertion that Jesus Christ believed in an immortal soul, basing this on

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

I'm sure you know that the punctuation of English translation is entirely arbitrary. See if this makes any difference:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

Small comma, big difference, no?

Even more significant, this verse cannot be used to prove the thief ascended to heaven with Jesus that day, specifically since Jesus said 3 days later,

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17





Jon

[RND]

Pythons,


This is quite a large post, could you break it down into smaller points so we could all discuss and go through them more thoroughly?


The main point that struck me is you're assertion that Jesus Christ believed in an immortal soul, basing this on

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

I'm sure you know that the punctuation of English translation is entirely arbitrary. See if this makes any difference:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

Small comma, big difference, no?

Even more significant, this verse cannot be used to prove the thief ascended to heaven with Jesus that day, specifically since Jesus said 3 days later,

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17





Jon

Excellent point Jon. If Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, then using the argument posed, it would only be proper to ask, "When did the thief ascend into Heaven?"

In that the scriptures are completely silent on the matter one would have to make an assumption based on non-scriptural orthodoxy to get the Bible to say what it does not say.

[Jimlarmore]

Now, here comes the kicker, Jesus believed in an immortal soul as did “all” Jews at that time (with the exception of the Sadducees).

This does not square with scripture at all like John 11:11 or many other verses. Your stance on Ecc 9 is not taking the Bible as it is read either. There is no reverse enginneering of those texts and Solomon was not the only one who held the belief that when you die your thoughts perish and you know nothing. Look at Ps 146:4

4

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.





“The poor man died and was carried by the angles to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom”. Luke 16,22

This does not teach us that Christ believed in an immortal soul at all but teaches us that a good life will be rewarded and a selfish life won't. There is no scripture that supports that those in hell will be able to speak to those in Abraham's bossom. This is a parable and as such it only takes on literalness if Christ would have said something like He did so many other times when He gave a parable i.e. "So shall it be" at the time of death or at the end of the world etc. The problem is He never said that here so we take it as a story only with a moral lesson not literal facts.


“And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power”. And He said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE”. Luke 23,42

The problem with this is Christ didn't go to paradise that day because right after His resurrection He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to His Father yet. The theif may not have died that day either. They came and broke their legs at the going down of the sun so they could take them off of the cross over the Sabbath.



“Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: Handle me, and see; FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE”. Luke 24,39

I don't have time to go into this extensively but Christ had just went thru a closed door right before He said that. Solid bodies can't do that as far as we know. So how did He do that? The Bible says we don't know exactly what we will become but we know we will be like Him. I believe Christ's ability to disaccociate His matter and go thru walls or doors is something a glorified body will be able to do. This does not mean that He had a spirit separate from His body.



“Then said Samuel, “whenfore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord has departed from thee and is become thine enemy”. 1 Samuel 28,16

This is a familiar spirit speaking and not Samuel. The Bible warns extensively against dealing with Familiar spirits.


“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: But rather fear Him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”. Matthew 10,28

Here Christ is merely telling those around Him that souls can die. Your position is that souls are immortal which this text clearly refutes.


“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as those which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. 1 Thessalonians 4,13

There's nothing wrong with this text if you remember which way "He'll bring them with Him". The text clearly says that HE resurrects the righteous first then He will brings them with HIm back to heaven, not bring them with Him from heaven.


“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh , that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. MY DESIRE IS TO DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, FOR THAT IS FAR BETTER. But to REMAIN IN THE FLESH is more necessary on your account. Philippians 1,21

Again, if taken the way you are implying then we would have to throw out a lot of other texts that clearly tells us that we get our reward when Christ comes at the resurrection not at death. Look at Rev 22:11-12

11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.





I have went to the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and read the fundamental belief associated with this thread and believe it to be incorrect. It’s like Seventh-day Adventists have reverse engineered Ecclesiastes and attempted to bend what seems to me to be the clear teaching of the Prophets in the Old Testament and the explicit teachings of the New Testament, specifically Christ’s own words that the thief would be with him in Paradise on the very day Jesus was made a “quickening Spirit”.

Please show that scripture that says the theif would be with Him when He became a quickening spirit.


Normally one would reverse engineer a completed machine to see how it is made but in this case (and I mean no disrespect) a non-doctrine was reverse engineered in order to destroy a crystal clear doctrine that Jesus and His Apostles unequivocally accepted.

This is a false accusation brother, sorry.


Paul was a New Testament heavy-weight and he flat-out said he believed in Angels, the Resurrection and a spiritual soul. Paul said he would rather his soul leave his body (as in be dead) and be with Christ. If fundamental belief #26 of the General Conference is correct then Paul wouldn’t know if he was with Christ because he would be unconscious. Which reminds me of a Scripture that makes me cringe when I apply Seventh-day Adventist teaching to it;


“ And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city; and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their cloths at a young mans feet, whose name was Saul. And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord do not hold this against them”. And when he had said this he fell asleep”. Acts 7, 56


Stephen asks the Lord Jesus to receive his (Stephen’s) spirit and at the moment of death God strikes the spirit of Stephen a sharp blow rending it unconscious, because as the Sadducees say, there is no spirit.

If you look at the word spirit there it is pneumos or breath. God gives the breath of life once we die God receives it back that is all Stephen is saying here. You make a lot of assumptions on the writings of Paul that he just doesn't actually support. The desire to have an immortal soul is very strong in humans. I understand why we want so desparately to be that way. The problem is there is nothing in the scripture that tells us that our souls are immortal right now. The word/s for soul is used over 1600 times in the Bible and not one time does it say they are immortal or undying. On the contrary in Ezek 18:4 it says the soul that sins it shall die.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[RND]

Here an excellent study on Luke 16:19-31 from a non-Adventist POV.

Lazarus and the Rich Man

[A Scriptural Journey Through the Intriguing Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man]

L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html)

Understanding Luke 16:19-31 for the parable that it is does wonders in gaining a proper insight into the pagan view of death that the religious leaders and Jews of Jesus' day had accepted and how that same view is accepted today.

[TrustAndObey]

I know this is a differing opinion about this subject but you did ask for it.

I really appreciate your differing opinion, but that isn't exactly what I asked for. I didn't ask for opinions. I want some biblical support of what a soul is.

If it is more than a living, breathing human being (animals are souls too), there should be scriptural support for that idea.

I read every word of your post, and you did not explain what a soul is. Let's leave aside immortality for a moment, because that is currently being discussed in this thread: http://christianforums.com/t6963314-are-there-any-sdas-aout-there-who-do-not-agree-with-the-state-of-the-dead-doctrine.html

I encourage you to read that thread, even though it's gotten quite long, because it addresses all the verses you used to endorse the idea of immortality of humans.

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain your view, but at the same time, I didn't really ask about immortality. I'll use your parable-type illustration style (which I love by the way, you're a good writer) to say that a house needs a foundation before the walls go up. That's what I'm asking for, the foundation or core of this issue.

What is a soul? Defined by scripture, what is a soul?

[TrustAndObey]

Excellent point Jon. If Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, then using the argument posed, it would only be proper to ask, "When did the thief ascend into Heaven?"

In that the scriptures are completely silent on the matter one would have to make an assumption based on non-scriptural orthodoxy to get the Bible to say what it does not say.

It's also important to note that the thief knew scripture.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Jesus didn't ascend back up to heaven for forty days after the resurrection. If He had promised the thief He would see Him THAT DAY, it wouldn't make sense.

It's a misplacement of a comma, and it really is as simple as that. There are many instances of poor punctuation in scripture. There wasn't ANY punctuation in the original language, and the translators placed punctuation into it...and they did NOT always get it right.

[RND]

Defined by scripture, what is a soul?

Strongs #5315 Nephesh (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB53.htm#S5315) - from 'naphash' (5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


In the Hebrew it is defined and used in these ways:
any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead, dealy, desire, fish, ghost, hath, he, heart, heart's, hearts, hearty, her, herself, him, himself, it, jeopardy, life, lives, lust, man, me, mind, minds, mortality, myself, one, own, person, persons, pleasure, soul, souls, soul's, tablets, thee, themselves, they, thing, thyself, will, and yourself. (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/CONHEB531.htm#S5315)

It would be a stretch, based on the above definition and usage to conclude that the word "nephesh" is exclusively regarding, or inferring to the general state of the "inner spirit" of man, and not dealing specifically with the "being" of man. Huge stretch.

It's the same for the Greek:

Strong's #5590 yuch/psuche (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK55.htm#S5590) - from yucw - psucho 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma - pneuma 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zwh - zoe 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew fagw - phago 5315, 7307 and chay 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

[RND]

It's also important to note that the thief knew scripture.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Jesus didn't ascend back up to heaven for forty days after the resurrection. If He had promised the thief He would see Him THAT DAY, it wouldn't make sense.

It's a misplacement of a comma, and it really is as simple as that. There are many instances of poor punctuation in scripture. There wasn't ANY punctuation in the original language, and the translators placed punctuation into it...and they did NOT always get it right.

Great point TAO!

"...when..."

For the thief "when" is the same for all of us, Resurrection Day (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn006.html#39), and for him and all of us, it will seem as if we were never gone.

[<><]

What is the Soul and Spirit?


Preface (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#preface)
The Various Renderings (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#renderings)
Personifications? (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#personifications)
Identifying the Original Words in Each Text; End Notes After Each Verse (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#misc)
The Soul - Old Testament (94 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#soul-ot)
The Soul - New Testament (33 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#soul-nt)
The Spirit - Old Testament (27 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#spirit-ot)
The Spirit - New Testament (4 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#spirit-nt)

[Jimlarmore]

Aside from Gen 2:7 it's nearly impossible to find really concrete texts to define exactly what a soul is. The combination of body and breath makes sense but we as humans need to go beyond that as our curiosity stretches that way. The totality of what a soul is includes consciousness and self realization of being.
I concure that a thought or the thoughts of humans can transcend the physical in what it is but cannot exist apart from it. IOW, you can't put your finger on a thought but you can put your finger on what produces it/them. This is all part of that grand area of mystiqueness and mystery of this miraculous thing we call the brain/mind.

The holy of holy of the body temple is the mind. This is the seat of man's wisdom or folly and the primary battle ground of the great controversy between good and evil in our lives.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[TrustAndObey]

Using a fair amount of objectivity (removing the SDA/EGW lens that SDA's view the universe through) should help in at least making strides in understanding what the Bible ACTUALLY says (or doesn't say) about the soul. The Bible is NOT black and white on this subject, and it's NOT salvic.

I meant to comment on this remark yesterday, but I got wrapped up in something else and didn't get back to it.

Number one, I read the bible way before I ever became SDA (I wasn't even sure if I was a CHRISTIAN when I decided to read it for myself the first time). Therefore, I obviously did not read it through an SDA lens. I had never set foot in an Adventist church when I read the bible.

Number two, I had never even heard of EGW when I read the bible the first time. I still haven't read her books and I formed my opinion about death from scripture alone, Free. You can doubt if that's true, and all I can tell you is that it is. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Number three, I was raised Baptist. I grew up hearing about immortality of the soul. I believed my entire life that my grandparents were happy and living in heaven with Jesus Christ, looking over me. WHY would I want to believe that isn't true? I didn't want to believe it Free, but I could not deny what I read in scripture.

It broke my heart at first. Not because I think sleep is a bad thing or that I don't believe in the promise of the resurrection, but because I had been lied to by people that were supposed to help me on my spiritual path. The people I considered my spiritual leaders were leading me, but not on the right path.

Number four, you made a comment about what the bible says a soul ACTUALLY (emphasis yours) is, so let's hear it. That is exactly what I asked in my OP, but instead of supplying any scripture, you used your post as a way to insult the people within the church I belong to.

Number five, you were a pastor in the Adventist church, yet I'm having to correct you on the Adventist teaching on this subject? You totally misrepresented the Adventist view of what a soul is.

Number six, what if this is salvic? I think it absolutely could be, IN THAT if a person understands this one very basic thing that most churches misrepresent, that person is going to start questioning what else the church isn't portraying correctly.

I think realizing you need to study the bible for YOURSELF and quit relying on what other people TELL you it says is a sure-shot way to start forming a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I don't mean just about this subject obviously, but all of it. If people have told you what the bible says, and it doesn't say that, you are going to find out more for yourself. At least that's what happened to me. It was the beginning of a true one-on-one relationship with my Savior.

This subject was salvic for me, because it made me stop and think about who was in control....me or my spiritual "leaders". Their error could've cost me my life.....

I didn't like it. I WANTED my grandparents to be in heaven already. But they're not. Paul told us to comfort one another with "those" words, and those are NOT the words you hear at most funerals today.

This is important. It is an important foundation for faith.

[TrustAndObey]

Strongs #5315 Nephesh (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB53.htm#S5315) - from 'naphash' (5314); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


In the Hebrew it is defined and used in these ways:
any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead, dealy, desire, fish, ghost, hath, he, heart, heart's, hearts, hearty, her, herself, him, himself, it, jeopardy, life, lives, lust, man, me, mind, minds, mortality, myself, one, own, person, persons, pleasure, soul, souls, soul's, tablets, thee, themselves, they, thing, thyself, will, and yourself. (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/CONHEB531.htm#S5315)

It would be a stretch, based on the above definition and usage to conclude that the word "nephesh" is exclusively regarding, or inferring to the general state of the "inner spirit" of man, and not dealing specifically with the "being" of man. Huge stretch.

Amen, a huge stretch indeed. That's why I asked Free to look up the verses I supplied where nephesh is translated to "dead body". That's really important!

[TrustAndObey]

Chicken soup for the soul is basically just....chicken soup.

People are souls. Animals are souls.

[TrustAndObey]

What is the Soul and Spirit?

Preface (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#preface)
The Various Renderings (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#renderings)
Personifications? (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#personifications)
Identifying the Original Words in Each Text; End Notes After Each Verse (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#misc)
The Soul - Old Testament (94 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#soul-ot)
The Soul - New Testament (33 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#soul-nt)
The Spirit - Old Testament (27 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#spirit-ot)
The Spirit - New Testament (4 Verses) (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm#spirit-nt)

<><....that is an excellent site! I bookmarked it and I'm reading through it.

[Pythons]

I really appreciate your differing opinion, but that isn't exactly what I asked for. I didn't ask for opinions. I want some biblical support of what a soul is.

If it is more than a living, breathing human being (animals are souls too), there should be scriptural support for that idea.


Sacred Scripture tells us that the Pharisees were God’s established Religious Authority (Matthew 23,2) and that the Pharisees believed in an immortal soul (Acts 23, 8) and being that Paul “was” a Pharisee he was a subscriber to that belief. As Biblical support of that belief one can look at Paul’s wording in the Book of Philippians, “If I am to go on living ‘in-the-body’ / ‘I desire to depart and be with Christ’ / ‘It is more necessary for you that I remain in-the-body’.” The Sadducees rejected dualism, the Pharisees were dualists. Paul’s statements are unmistakably dualist.

“Go on living in the body” = better for those he was teaching and preaching to.

“Departing his body and being with Christ is far better” is living out of the Body.

In both cases Paul says he (what makes Paul, Paul) would live and being Dead that part of him (his spirit) would be conscious enough that he would know he was with Christ. This is the Biblical definition of what a Soul is.


I would submit that the forgoing is Biblical support that a soul “is” immortal. You did ask “what a soul is”, right?

As for animals, Sacred Scripture is very clear it wasn’t the animals that were made in the image and likeness of God, it was man.

“And out of the ground the Lord formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky”. Genesis 2,19

“The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul”. Geneses 2,7

As God formed both man and animal out of the dust of the ground, the “soul” is what separates man from animal because man is the only creature that He willed for it’s own sake.

I have read over the thread you mentioned and maintain proponents to your position are reverse-engineering the meaning of the Sprit (soul), using Scripture citations that predate and deny the doctrinal assertions of all Jews at the time of Christ (except for the Sadducees) that clearly define “The Spirit” or ‘Soul’ as what defines the actions of the flesh and animates the flesh. Biblical support for this would be statements showing it was Lazarus who was carried by the Angels to the Bosom of Abraham / Stephen asking God to receive his (Stephan’s) Spirit / God will bring with Him “Them” who sleep in Jesus. These people are all dead and because their bodies were under corruption and they did not “ascend” their name is attached to the part of them that identifies their being without the body, “their” spirit.

Jewish understanding at the time of Christ was universal in belief that the person’s soul at death was conscious aside from the Sadducees. Scripture, Sacred Tradition and secular history confirms the spirit was conscious both in the body (when the person is alive) and out of the body (when the person was dead) as the spirit is what retains the relationship man has with God and his fellow man, not the dust of the earth that makes up mans biological body.



Keeping immortality separate from the Biblical meaning of the Spirit would be like removing a person of the Godhead from the Trinity. In any event, from what I know about the Investigative Judgment Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists the Biblical meaning of soul must be interpreted or reverse engineered through the Sadducees understanding, because the IJ wouldn’t work if the Spirit of man were his own possession.

[TrustAndObey]

If a soul is immortal, then why does scripture say the soul that sinneth shall DIE? Death and immortality are complete opposites.

You still haven't explained what you think a soul is. You're stuck on immortality, and that's fine, but that doesn't answer my question.

[TrustAndObey]

Spirit and soul are not the same thing.

[TrustAndObey]

Let me try another approach here....

Do you have any scripture where the Pharisees describe what a soul is? I'm not asking for verses where they describe what a soul can do, but what it is.

[Jimlarmore]

Simply because the pharasee's were the elite of the Jewish faith does not mean they were right in their doctrines. Look at the way they had made the Sabbath a burden to everyone. Christ set them straight on that many times and it was the Sabbath that caused many rubs between them and Christ. Christ also set them straight on their use of traditions of which the immortality of the soul is one. The Greek/Helenistic influence brought this belief into Judism but never had scriptural basis at any time.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Pythons]

Simply because the pharasee's were the elite of the Jewish faith does not mean they were right in their doctrines. Look at the way they had made the Sabbath a burden to everyone. Christ set them straight on that many times and it was the Sabbath that caused many rubs between them and Christ. Christ also set them straight on their use of traditions of which the immortality of the soul is one. The Greek/Helenistic influence brought this belief into Judism but never had scriptural basis at any time.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
The Scribes and Pharisees "had" the power to "bind" and "loose" because they were God's Religious Authority according to Christ. There were other sects within Judaism at that time and their respective names were not included with those who sit on Moses' seat.

Jesus told the Jews of His day to do "whatsoever" the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do because it was the Scribes and Pharisees who had binding authority.


Sadducees = not on Moses' seat. Rejected the immortality of the soul on the same grounds they rejected the Resurrection.

Essenes = not on Moses' seat. Believed in immortality of the Soul but differently then the Pharisees. Rejected most of the Canon of Jewish Scripture.

Sicarii = not on Moses' seat. Believed in the immortality of the Soul but not like the Pharisees or Essenes. Their name described how they thought the Jewish people should gain their goals, by the sword or dagger.

The understanding of the immortality of the soul was not a "tradition" and is exactly why the Sadducees rejected both it and the Resurrection.

The immortality of the Soul was a co-part of the of the Doctrine of the Resurrection and as the saying goes, if you deny one you deny the other.

How do you sync your premise with the many dualist statements in Sacred Scripture if, as you say, Jesus and the Apostles were not dualist?

[TrustAndObey]

Pythons, if you were to read verse after verse about the Pharisees giving a tithe, you still wouldn't know what a tithe even WAS if it wasn't for the OT definition.

[RND]

The Scribes and Pharisees "had" the power to "bind" and "loose" because they were God's Religious Authority according to Christ.

Any scripture to support that?

Mat 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mat 23:29
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,


There were other sects within Judaism at that time and their respective names were not included with those who sit on Moses' seat.

Any scripture to support that?

Jesus told the Jews of His day to do "whatsoever" the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do because it was the Scribes and Pharisees who had binding authority.

Any scripture to support that?

I think He told that to His disciples.

Sadducees = not on Moses' seat. Rejected the immortality of the soul on the same grounds they rejected the Resurrection.

Any scripture to support that?

Essenes = not on Moses' seat. Believed in immortality of the Soul but differently then the Pharisees. Rejected most of the Canon of Jewish Scripture.

Any scripture to support that?

Sicarii = not on Moses' seat. Believed in the immortality of the Soul but not like the Pharisees or Essenes. Their name described how they thought the Jewish people should gain their goals, by the sword or dagger.

Any scripture to support that?

The understanding of the immortality of the soul was not a "tradition" and is exactly why the Sadducees rejected both it and the Resurrection.

That's right, it was a pagan Greek teaching that infiltrated the Hebrew teachings. Luke 16:19-31.

The immortality of the Soul was a co-part of the of the Doctrine of the Resurrection and as the saying goes, if you deny one you deny the other.

Of course, the Hebrew scriptures make no mention of any resurrection at all.

How do you sync your premise with the many dualist statements in Sacred Scripture if, as you say, Jesus and the Apostles were not dualist?

That statement can only be interpreted by believing that the Sacred Scriptures teach such a "dualistic" approach to immortality, which we can clearly see they do not.

The only way one can believe a "dualistic" approach to scripture is to ignore the vast majority that clearly shows that to be a false and pagan notion.

This link shows in pictures the many links to paganism and the dualistic approach. Please forgive the title of this page, I did not create it nor write it.

Symbols of paganism dualism (http://www.remnantofgod.org/images/IGC/pagan-rcc.htm)

[Pythons]

Pythons,


This is quite a large post, could you break it down into smaller points so we could all discuss and go through them more thoroughly?


The main point that struck me is you're assertion that Jesus Christ believed in an immortal soul, basing this on

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

I'm sure you know that the punctuation of English translation is entirely arbitrary. See if this makes any difference:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise." Luke 23:43

Small comma, big difference, no?

[/quote]
______________________________________________________________________________________



If the Scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat like Jesus said then they had the authority from God to teach. The problem was the Pharisees didn’t practice what they preached and had the power to “loose” burdens but they wouldn’t lift a finger to do so.

Combined with Paul’s unequivocal dualist statements and many other undeniable dualist statements, not to mention the record of Sacred Tradition from both Judaism and Christianity paired with what secular history says there is no other way to believe, unless you reverse engineer the New Testament doctrine of the Spirit using Scripture citations prior to the formulation of the Doctrine as your starting point. Example (s);

These were all condemned for their faith , YET NONE OF THEM HAD RECEIVED WHAT HAD BEEN PROMISED. GOD HAD PLANNED SOMETHING BETTER FOR US SO THAT ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD “”THEY”” BE MADE PERFECT”. Hebrews 11


“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us”. Hebrews 12,1


“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the City of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of Angles in joyful assembly, to the Church of the 1st born, who names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new Covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word then the blood of able”. Hebrews 12,22

“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. We believe Jesus died and rose again AND SO WE BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL BRING WITH JESUS THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN HIM.” 1st Thess 4,13


An “unconscious witness” is by definition an Oxymoron.



Christ has literally been beaten to the very brink of death in the greatest of pain and you suggest throwing a comma where it would not be.

“ I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”.

Vs.

“I say to you today (it is today, not tomorrow or next week sometime that I’m telling you this), that you will be with me in paradise”.

Work the scenario of Jesus’ last few minutes through in your mind and see if it makes sense for Jesus in the state He would have been in to qualify what day it was that he was talking to the man hanging next to Him. To even suggest such a thing when God Himself was paying the price for everything the whole of humanity has done in such great pain is, forgive me for saying it, EVIL. To me, comma aside it makes a mockery of the real, unimaginable suffering of Jesus to even suggest this.


Even more significant, this verse cannot be used to prove the thief ascended to heaven with Jesus that day, specifically since Jesus said 3 days later,

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch Me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17



No, Jesus upon death went into Abraham’s Bosom (which was a section of Sheol) otherwise known as “Paradise”. That was where the angles carried Lazarus’ spirit when he died. Again, 100% buy-in on Abraham’s Bosom at the time of Christ, except for the Sadducees.



This is what is meant by “them” / “those” spirit’s of righteous men made perfect who are witnesses and waiting until the General Judgment when God brings “them” with Him.

[Pythons]

Let me try another approach here....

Do you have any scripture where the Pharisees describe what a soul is? I'm not asking for verses where they describe what a soul can do, but what it is.
We could start by explaining what it is not. It's not "Unconscious" for certain.

If you mean "soul" as in sea talk, like 12 souls lost their lives. I was thinking based on your 1st post you meant to discuss what I have been. Opp's, sorry.

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Lainie,

Here is a portion of the information I have been working on. When I get the rest of it put to gether I will come back and post that also.


Perhaps it will be of help in answering your quetion if we go back to Gen. 2:7 and take a closer look at the meanings of the words used there to tell us about God's creation of man.

"And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.
There are four phrases here that containe words whose meanings, from the Hebrew, I think will be of help in gaining a fuller understanding of exctly how Adam became a "living Soul."

God formed man. Aditional important details about Adam's creation are given. We are allowed to peer, as it were, into the work shop of God and to watch His hand preforming the mysterious act of creation. The word for "to form," yasar, implies an act of moulding and fashioning into a form corresponding in design and appearance to the divine plan. The word is used in describing the activity of the potter (Isa. 29:16; 49:5 ect.), of the goldsmith fashioning idols (Isa. 44:9; Hab. 2:18), and of God, who fashions various things, amoung others, the light (Isa. 45:7), the human eye (Ps. 94:9), the heart (Ps.33:15), and the seasons (Ps. 74:17).

Of the dust of the ground. That man is composed of materials derived from the ground, the elements of the earth, is confirmed by science. Decomposition of the human body after death bears witness to the same fact. The major elements making up the human body are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen. Many others exist in smaller proportions. How true that man was made of "the dust of the ground," and also whence he was taken (Eccl. 12:7).

The breath of life. "Breath," neshamah. From the Source of all life the life-giving principal entered the lifeless body of Adam. The agency by which the spark of life was transfered to his body is said to be the "breath" of God. The same thought appears in Job 33:4. "The breath [nesamah] of the Almigty hath given me life." Imparted to man the "breath" is equvalent to his life; it is life itself (Isa. 2:22). At death there is "no breath [neshamah, life] left in him" (1 Kings 17:17). This "beath of life" in man differs in no way from the "breath of life" in aimals, for all recieve life from God. (Gen. 2:21, 22; Eccl. 3:19). It therefore can not be the mind or intellegence.

A living soul. When the lifeless form of man was infused with divine "breath," neshamah, of life, man became a living "soul," nephesh. The word nephesh has a variety of meanings: (1) breath (Job 42:21), (2) life (1 Kings 17:21; 2 Sam. 18:13; ect.), (3) heart as the seat of affectios (Gen. 34:3; S.of Sol. 1:7; ect.), (4) living being (Gen 12:5; 36:; Lev. 4:2; ect.), and (5) for emphasizing the personal pronouns (Ps. 3:2; 1 Sam. 18:1; ect,). Note that the nephesh is made by God (Jer. 38:16), and can die (Judges 16:30), be killed (Num. 31:19), be eaten (metaphoricaly, Eze. 22:25), and be refreshed (Ps. 19:7; Heb.). None of this applies to the spirit, ruach, indicating clearly the great difference between the two terms. It is obvious from the above survey that the translation "soul" given by the KJV to nephesh of Gen 2:7 is not appropriate, if the commonly used expresion "imortal soul" is implied. Although pouplar, this concept is completely foreign to the Bible. This passage may be rightly translated: Man became a living "being" (RSV). When "soul" is considered synonymous with "being," we gain the Scriptural meaning of nephesh in this text.

I hope that this additional explaination will give you a clear understanding for the question you have ask. If you have additional questions please feel free to ask.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

[thecountrydoc]

I just realized that I had left out this additional comment.


There are a couple of additional things that I should clarify. The first being, the pharse "breathed into his nosterils the breath of life." When God "breathed the breath of life," there were actually two things that took place. The first was the physical act of filling Adam's lungs with air. The second, was the act of imparting that "spark of life" so that Adam could become/became a "living soul". We humans have the tendancy to want to lable everything, including that indefineable "spark of life" that only comes from God, and which is most often called the spirit, or the soul. While it is true that at death God takes back that "spark of life," a further study will show that the soul is not imortal. If the soul were indeed imortal then Satan's [the serpents] first lie to mankind as found in Gen. 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman ye shall not surly die:" Gen. 3:4.would not be a lie, and God would have been wrong in telling Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would indeed die as found in the preceeding verse. "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Gen. 3:3An "imortal soul" would indicate that a most important part of man's life, spirit, the soul, would never die. To futher clarify this, think of the definition of the word resurect; verb, to bring back to life. If God made man from, shall we say, raw materials the first time, He can recreate, reconstruct, and resurect us a second time.

What I have given you here is simple logic. If however you wish to explore this topic further there is pleanty of textual evidence to support this logic.

If you have further questions please feel free to post here or to call on me at any time.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

[Jimlarmore]

This is good sound logic and truth Doc. Thankyou for your input here. There's nothing I can think of to add other than many many verses that tells us that the soul is not immortal.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Pythons]

The Spirit "comes" from God while the body from creation. In any event without the clear dualist statements from the NT I would give serious weight to Doc's statements. I would suggest Jesus is the authority on this.

"That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection (or angels or spirits)" asked Jesus a question they thought would stump Him. Jesus answered their question about marriage and took it past what they asked. Jesus said,

"You are in error because you know not the Scriptures or the power of God....... But at the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to "you", I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" Matt 22, 23-32

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not alive in the body when Moses was at the burning bush.

[Cribstyl]

The Spirit "comes" from God while the body from creation. In any event without the clear dualist statements from the NT I would give serious weight to Doc's statements. I would suggest Jesus is the authority on this.

"That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection (or angels or spirits)" asked Jesus a question they thought would stump Him. Jesus answered their question about marriage and took it past what they asked. Jesus said,

"You are in error because you know not the Scriptures or the power of God....... But at the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to "you", I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" Matt 22, 23-32

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not alive in the body when Moses was at the burning bush.


Good post..... to God the dead are alive before Him.

[RND]

The Spirit "comes" from God while the body from creation. In any event without the clear dualist statements from the NT I would give serious weight to Doc's statements. I would suggest Jesus is the authority on this.

"That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection (or angels or spirits)" asked Jesus a question they thought would stump Him. Jesus answered their question about marriage and took it past what they asked. Jesus said,

"You are in error because you know not the Scriptures or the power of God....... But at the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to "you", I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" Matt 22, 23-32

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not alive in the body when Moses was at the burning bush.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?


Job 14:11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:


Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!


Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

[Pythons]

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?

Yes RND, "man". When Abraham, Isaac and Jacob gave up "THEIR respective GHOST's" the Great I AM tells you He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Therefore, if God "IS" the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob then whatever it is that distinguishes these "ghosts" enough that retains their names is alive.



Job 14:11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

You have this citation confused with what happend to the Mitzvot (The Ten Commandments AKA The Law)



Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


That is why the Sadducees rejected the Resurrection and immortality of the soul RND. Acts 23,8 and exactly why Christ corrected them on their rejection of both the Resurrection and Spirits.



Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!



Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

"So man lies down and does not raise v.12)"

"For when a few years are past I shall go the way of no return". Job 16,22

Good job RND, have the Old Testament interpret the meaning of the New Testament and swap established definitions of words with your meanings and try to pass it off as truth. LOL.

Here's a clue for you RND. If the belief in the Resurrection was not not existent at the time of Ecclesiastes then you can bank on the fact it wasn't existent in Job.



Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

"If a man dies, will he live again? ALL THE DAYS OF MY STRUGGLE I will wait until my change comes. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hand".

Job is struggling all his days until his change comes? How does this work out RND? If at death Job knows not anything how is he in struggle? Oh, that's right, that's not what the verse is saying. Job is suffering until God's wrath returns to God and Job can enjoy the here and now exactly like was understood at that time.

[RND]

Yes RND, "man". When Abraham, Isaac and Jacob gave up "THEIR respective GHOST's" the Great I AM tells you He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Therefore, if God "IS" the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob then whatever it is that distinguishes these "ghosts" enough that retains their names is alive.

Not a God of the "dead" as in literally "dead." There is no more place under the sun for the "dead."


You have this citation confused with what happend to the Mitzvot (The Ten Commandments AKA The Law)

Huh?


That is why the Sadducees rejected the Resurrection and immortality of the soul RND. Acts 23,8 and exactly why Christ corrected them on their rejection of both the Resurrection and Spirits.

Yet Christ wasn't raised as a"spirit" was He?

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

"So man lies down and does not raise v.12)"

"For when a few years are past I shall go the way of no return". Job 16,22

Good job RND, have the Old Testament interpret the meaning of the New Testament and swap established definitions of words with your meanings and try to pass it off as truth. LOL.

Thanks, I appreciate you noticing that 2/3's of the Bible should not be ignored.

Having the "Old Testament" interpret the "New" is imperative considering all the referrences to the "Old" in the "New."

Job knew what was promised to him in the resurrection that he would not would sleep forever, but God would remember him at his appointed time and raise him up again. Of course, Paul knew this too.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Here's a clue for you RND. If the belief in the Resurrection was not not existent at the time of Ecclesiastes then you can bank on the fact it wasn't existent in Job.

Nope. Just because some people accepted the false theology and inferior gods of ancient peoples and religions doesn't mean that there isn't any truth.

In other words, had the Pharisees and Saducees read the scriptures and not listened to and absorbed false pagan theology, they would have known instantly what to believe! ^_^

You are just a heretical Sadducee in that you place the Sadducees Dogma of the Spirit over that of Christ then illogically don't apply the same reasoning to the resurrection.

Gee, that was completely unnecessary.

Nope, I'm a Christian that believes in the resurrection of the dead at the last trump on the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

"If a man dies, will he live again? ALL THE DAYS OF MY STRUGGLE I will wait until my change comes. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hand".

And when does the "New" Testament say that Job's change will come?

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Job is struggling all his days until his change comes?

In the grave?

How does this work out RND?

The soul waits til it is changed and resurrected.

If at death Job knows not anything how is he in struggle?

What "struggle?" Job is clearly talking about being dead in the grave.

Here's the verses again:

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?


Job 14:11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:


Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.


Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!


Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Highlight the word "struggle" for me would ya?

Oh, that's right, that's not what the verse is saying. Job is suffering until God's wrath returns to God and Job can enjoy the here and now exactly like was understood at that time.

You readin' the same verse I am?

"...until thy wrath be [B]past..."

[Cribstyl]

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.






The truth in this and following chapters, Job is having a pity party with his friend. He even accuses God of being the destroyer of hope.

Job is not always right in his philosophical venting, but he was more accurate than his friend.

Here is a version that makes it clearer....

Job 14:
"How frail is humanity! How short is life, and how full of trouble!
2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) Like a flower, we blossom for a moment and then wither. Like the shadow of a passing cloud, we quickly disappear.
3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) Must you keep an eye on such a frail creature and demand an accounting from me?
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) Who can create purity in one born impure? No one!
5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.
6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) So give us a little rest, won't you? Turn away your angry stare. We are like hired hands, so let us finish the task you have given us.
7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)"If a tree is cut down, there is hope that it will sprout again and grow new branches.
8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) Though its roots have grown old in the earth and its stump decays,
9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) at the scent of water it may bud and sprout again like a new seedling.
10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)"But when people die, they lose all strength. They breathe their last, and then where are they?
11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) As water evaporates from a lake and as a river disappears in drought,
12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) people lie down and do not rise again. Until the heavens are no more, they will not wake up nor be roused from their sleep.
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)"I wish you would hide me with the dead and forget me there until your anger has passed. But mark your calendar to think of me again!
14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)If mortals die, can they live again? This thought would give me hope, and through my struggle I would eagerly wait for release.
15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) You would call and I would answer, and you would yearn for me, your handiwork.
16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) For then you would count my steps, instead of watching for my sins.
17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) My sins would be sealed in a pouch, and you would cover over my iniquity.
18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)"But as mountains fall and crumble and as rocks fall from a cliff,
19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#) as water wears away the stones and floods wash away the soil, so you destroy people's hope.
20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)You always overpower them, and then they pass from the scene. You disfigure them in death and send them away.
[B]21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)They never know if their sons grow up in honor or sink to insignificance.
22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=014&version=nltp#)They are absorbed in their own pain and grief."



Now his neighbor responds to his comments

Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:
2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#)"You are supposed to be a wise man, and yet you give us all this foolish talk. You are nothing but a windbag.
3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) It isn't right to speak so foolishly. What good do such words do?
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) Have you no fear of God, no reverence for him?
5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) Your sins are telling your mouth what to say. Your words are based on clever deception.
6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) But why should I condemn you? Your own mouth does!

7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#)"Were you the first person ever born? Were you born before the hills were made?
8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) Were you listening at God's secret council? Do you have a monopoly on wisdom?
9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) What do you know that we don't? What do you understand that we don't?
10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) On our side are aged, gray-haired men much older than your father!
11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#)"Is God's comfort too little for you? Is his gentle word not enough?
12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) What has captured your reason? What has weakened your vision,
13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=015&version=nltp#) that you turn against God and say all these evil things?

Job goes on to reply to his friends about the dead trembling underground in a place call Sheol... (KJV)

Job 26:
5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=026&version=nltp#)"The dead tremble in their place beneath the waters.
6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=026&version=nltp#) The underworld [fn1] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=026&version=nltp#_fnt_1) is naked in God's presence. There is no cover for the place of destruction


The difference in Jobs 2 perspectives of the dead is, Job 14:12 is from a living man's view and Job 26:5,6 is from God's view.

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again,

Thank you Pythons for your previous post. It does indeed help to clarify this subject. Lets take a closer look at the passage you have quoted:"That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection (or angels or spirits)" asked Jesus a question they thought would stump Him. Jesus answered their question about marriage and took it past what they asked. Jesus said,

"You are in error because you know not the Scriptures or the power of God....... But at the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to "you", I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, He is not the God of the dead but of the living" Matt 22, 23-32 To gain a clearer understanding of this passage I have highlighted the last portion of it. Let's now take a look at Eccl. 9:5:"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of thems forgotten. It now becomes clear that when man is dead (in the grave) he is no longer a "living soul." That God given gift, that spark of life, the "living soul," has ceased to exist. The thought process' of the mind stop. Without a concious mind there can be no communication with the Creator. It is the ability to think and communicate with our Creator that seperates man form all the rest of God's creation. In death there is seperation from God. It now also becomes clear how/why the "second death" becomes the final reward of the wicked. The second death will produce a total and eternal seperation from God.

With the above in mind, we can now understand the true meaning of the word "death." We can also see that there is no "dualist statements" made concerning the soul in the NT or anywhere else in the Bible.

This is an excellent example of why we must study to show ourselve "approved" and why we must use "line upon line and precept upon precept" as we study God's Word.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

[Cribstyl]

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

"So man lies down and does not raise v.12)"

"For when a few years are past I shall go the way of no return". Job 16,22

Good job RND, have the Old Testament interpret the meaning of the New Testament and swap established definitions of words with your meanings and try to pass it off as truth. LOL.

Here's a clue for you RND. If the belief in the Resurrection was not not existent at the time of Ecclesiastes then you can bank on the fact it wasn't existent in Job.


With all due respect Pythons, can your show a timeline of Job vs Solomon? Who is the author of Job?

CRIB

[Pythons]

Yes RND, "man". When Abraham, Isaac and Jacob gave up "THEIR respective GHOST's" the Great I AM tells you He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Therefore, if God "IS" the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob then whatever it is that distinguishes these "ghosts" enough that retains their names is alive.


Not a God of the "dead" as in literally "dead." There is no more place under the sun for the "dead."


To God, the righteous are not literally dead. "I AM the God of" Vs. I was the God of. A point you understand perfectly but as it messes up your I.J. doctrine you are forced to ignore Scriptural and historical context.


That is why the Sadducees rejected the Resurrection and immortality of the soul RND. Acts 23,8 and exactly why Christ corrected them on their rejection of both the Resurrection and Spirits.


Yet Christ wasn't raised as a"spirit" was He?


Put to death in the body and made alive in the spirit RND. As in,

"I am torn between the two: for I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this I will remain". Phili 1,23

"I" will remain in my body intead of departing "My" body sounds like Paul doesn't buy-in to your Sadducee belief. Fact is, Paul says he will remain in his body. He (Paul) = Spirit that animates the flesh because the spirit retains the name while the body is just "the body".


Good job RND, have the Old Testament interpret the meaning of the New Testament and swap established definitions of words with your meanings and try to pass it off as truth. LOL.


Thanks, I appreciate you noticing that 2/3's of the Bible should not be ignored.

Having the "Old Testament" interpret the "New" is imperative considering all the referrences to the "Old" in the "New."


Finally, thank you for saying that so well.


Here's a clue for you RND. If the belief in the Resurrection was not not existent at the time of Ecclesiastes then you can bank on the fact it wasn't existent in Job.

Nope. Just because some people accepted the false theology and inferior gods of ancient peoples and religions doesn't mean that there isn't any truth.

In other words, had the Pharisees and Saducees read the scriptures and not listened to and absorbed false pagan theology, they would have known instantly what to believe!

That is exactly why the Sadducees rejected the Resurrection and Spirit dotrines of Jesus.

Yeah, Job is struggling in the Grave until Christ wakes him up. Hogwash.

[RND]

To God, the righteous are not literally dead. "I AM the God of" Vs. I was the God of. A point you understand perfectly but as it messes up your I.J. doctrine you are forced to ignore Scriptural and historical context.

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

This verse says nothing about being Abraham, Issac or Jacob still being alive. We know from scripture they are dead.

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full [of years]; and was gathered to his people.

Act 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Put to death in the body and made alive in the spirit RND. As in,

"I am torn between the two: for I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this I will remain". Phili 1,23


And yet, Paul knew exactly when he would be with Christ.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (Paul includes himself) shall be changed.

"I" will remain in my body intead of departing "My" body sounds like Paul doesn't buy-in to your Sadducee belief. Fact is, Paul says he will remain in his body. He (Paul) = Spirit that animates the flesh because the spirit retains the name while the body is just "the body".

Man, you gotta stop the name calling. I don't call you names. Nor do I have Sadducean beliefs. I believe in the resurrection. I just don't buy your time line.

Besides, if we go to Heaven at death (or purgatory) what's the need of Jesus coming to judge the "quick" (alive) and the "dead" (dead).

As for your take regarding Paul if that were true why would Paul insist he would be resurrected in the twinkling of an eye on the last trump?


Finally, thank you for saying that so well.

Then it's agreed! The Old interprets the New!

That is exactly why the Sadducees rejected the Resurrection and Spirit dotrines of Jesus.

I don't reject the teaching of Jesus. I just reject your version of it!

Yeah, Job is struggling in the Grave until Christ wakes him up. Hogwash.

But the verse doesn't say anything about Job struggling. Job admits he rests in the grave until his change comes, when God's wrath is finally past.

How is that hogwash?

I know what is curious is that you can't hightlight the word "struggle" in the verses quoted.

[freeindeed2]

Then it's agreed! The Old interprets the New!
Where do you get this idea from? I vehemently disagree! The 'old' MUST be viewed through the Gospel. It's the Gospel that puts the 'old' into proper perspective, NOT the other way around.

In fact, for the church (which didn't exist prior to the cross) they should view the Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, and John) through the Epistles (direct instruction to the church), and the 'old' through both (IOW, Epistles-> Gospels-> Old Testament). Doing it the other way around is the reason for unsound doctrine.

I don't reject the teaching of Jesus. I just reject your version of it!
You just think it must be viewed through the old testament first.

In CHRIST alone...

[RND]

Where do you get this idea from? I vehemently disagree! The 'old' MUST be viewed through the Gospel. It's the Gospel that puts the 'old' into proper perspective, NOT the other way around.

The picture and plan of salvation (Gospel) are clearly displayed for all to see in the OT.

In fact, for the church (which didn't exist prior to the cross) they should view the Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, and John) through the Epistles (direct instruction to the church), and the 'old' through both (IOW, Epistles-> Gospels-> Old Testament). Doing it the other way around is the reason for unsound doctrine.

That's your opinion but the story's of Ruth and Ester are both perfect pictures of the Gospels and the Plan of Salvation and redemption.

You just think it must be viewed through the old testament first.

Nope, didn't say that free. I said "The Old interprets the New!" You can't understand the "New" until you understand the "Old." There are so many OT references in the NT that if you don't understand the OLD one will have a hard time with the NEW.

You disagree with that? :scratch:

[freeindeed2]

The picture and plan of salvation (Gospel) are clearly displayed for all to see in the OT.
It may have displayed pieces of the picture, but the Reality who was in the picture has come. Why would you still try to view Jesus through the filter of the 'old' picture?

That's your opinion but the story's of Ruth and Ester are both perfect pictures of the Gospels and the Plan of Salvation and redemption.
Again, Jesus has come! He died and has been raised! His Spirit (God Himself!) lives IN us! The Destination has arrived yet you want to go back to the road signs!

Nope, didn't say that free. I said "The Old interprets the New!"
No way. If I drew out some directions for you and parts of them were confusing, yet they were correct, you would be able to see clearly why they were drawn the way they were once you reached the destination.

The old does not interpret the new. The old simply told about what was to come (Jesus). But the New has come and now we can see more clearly why God did what he did with and put in Scripture what he did because of how Christ fulfilled it all. Now that Christ has come it's much easier to understand the 'old' because of the 'new'. If it was the other way around then the Jews wouldn't have missed Christ!

You can't understand the "New" until you understand the "Old."
What? Think about it. A person who responds to the Gospel of Christ doesn't do so because they understand the OT. They're responding to the Good News of Jesus and they experience conversion and become a NEW creation whether they know nothing about the OT or everything. IT'S ABOUT JESUS! Not understanding the history of Israel's constant failing in the covenant God made with them.

There are so many OT references in the NT that if you don't understand the OLD one will have a hard time with the NEW.

You disagree with that? :scratch:
Completely, with regards to salvation in Christ. It does not take an understanding of the OT to respond to Jesus Christ. That's what a Judaizer would say!

In CHRIST alone...

[Pythons]

Freeindeed2,

The Investigative Judgment Dogma of Seventh-day Adventists teaches that the Spirit is rendered unconcious and remains in a state of coma after death.

On October 22, 1844 God started to "Judge" the dead / Jesus moves into the holy of holies to wash down that section of the heavely sanctuary exactly as it was done in the Old Testament. Christ sprays blood on the literal alter in heaven and acts as mans lawyer while Satan cross-examines.

If it was not determined who is going to be saved subsequent to 1844 then Peter, Paul and anyone else for that matter needed to be held in a coma like state. Once you pass inspection you continue to be in a coma until the General Resurrection where you are Resurrected.

I believe this is more or less what they believe so it's important to conform the New Testament to the early Old Testament understanding that the dead do not know anything and are in a dreamless sleep like state until the General Resurrection.

[Pythons]

Hiya Doc, your words would tell me you are a kind person, and I do appreciate the way you asked this question. I would love to look at this Scripture with you.


"You are in error because you know not the Scriptures or the power of God....... But at the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to "you", I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, HeisnottheGodofthedeadbutoftheliving" Matt 22, 23-32
To gain a clearer understanding of this passage I have highlighted the last portion of it. Let's now take a look at Eccl. 9:5:



"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of thems forgotten.




It now becomes clear that when man is dead (in the grave) he is no longer a "living soul." That God given gift, that spark of life, the "living soul," has ceased to exist. The thought process' of the mind stop. Without a concious mind there can be no communication with the Creator. It is the ability to think and communicate with our Creator that seperates man form all the rest of God's creation. In death there is seperation from God. It now also becomes clear how/why the "second death" becomes the final reward of the wicked. The second death will produce a total and eternal seperation from God.

With the above in mind, we can now understand the true meaning of the word "death." We can also see that there is no "dualist statements" made concerning the soul in the NT or anywhere else in the Bible.

This is an excellent example of why we must study to show ourselve "approved" and why we must use "line upon line and precept upon precept" as we study God's Word.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc



Ecclesiastes makes some very emphatic statements, that if taken synonymously would deny the resurrection. I’ve listed a few texts that I believe demonstrate the understanding at the time this was written.


“For that which befalleth the sons of men also befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth so dieth the other; Yea, they all have one breath; for a man has no preeminence over a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place: all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him”? Ecclesiastes 3,19


________________________________ECCL 9,5____________________________
v.4 “For to him that is joined to the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

v.5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward: For the memory of them is forgotten.

V.6 “Also, their love, and their hatred, and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun”.
_______________________________________________________________________________

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. Eccl 12,7

Vs.

“While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, Lord Jesus receive my spirit”.

I would ask that you compare Eccl 3:19 to the death of Stephen and study if each person believed the same way? I’m not suggesting the Old Testament is worthless as I read it all of the time. When I compare what has been written about early Judaism with Traditional Judaism’s description of the development of its doctrines I find very solid evidence that at the time of Eccl a Resurrection was not a belief.

Feel free to fire something back at me and thank you again for your respect.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ Jesus
pythons

[TrustAndObey]

Now who ever said being Adventist wouldn't be interesting? :)

It's definitely an interesting spot to be in, considering on one side other Christians tell us to ignore very important parts of the New Testament (MOST Messianics I know), and the other side tells us to ignore basically the entirety of the Old Testament (MOST Protestants I know).

I believe there is a happy medium in there, and that scripture is ALL the Word of God. Even Jesus said that!

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

I don't know of any other "book" that people would skip over the beginning or the ending of, but I see it all the time when it comes to the bible.

You cannot understand Revelation without Daniel and vice versa. They're sister books. One interprets the other.

Pythons, you mentioned that God is not the God of the dead. Are you sure about that?

I know what the Old Testament verses say, but did not Christ die and rise again to BECOME the Lord of the dead and the living? Yes, He did.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

BOTH the dead and living.

He promised us a resurrection. Without it, we would PERISH.

You keep saying the Sadducees rejected the resurrection because they didn't believe in the immortal soul-but I think you're way off. They didn't believe in the resurrection and thought that dead meant dead, with no hope of a resurrection.

You've also made a comment about the "general resurrection" and I'd like to point out that there's TWO very distinct resurrections mentioned in scripture.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In fact, the resurrections are 1,000 years apart.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Lived not