St. Patrick's Day

[Kris10leigh]

Lulav's post about HaSatan (I hope I got that right) made me think to ask this. I think I already know the answer, but thought it might make for a good discussion.

Do any of you celebrate St. Patrick's Day? Not as a holy day, but as a secular day?

My family does not, short of sending my kids to school in green so they don't get pinched. (There's no eye rolling emoticon...LOL) It was never even brought up for discussion at my house until last year. Apparently St. Patrick comes to my kids school, plays tricks while the kids are out of the room (overturns desks, writes on the board, etc.) and leaves chocolate. So my son thought St. Patrick's Day was a big day and was severely disappointed when we did nothing at our house. So we prepared him better this year. ;)

[Lulav]

I don't believe in patron saint of anything or any country or whatnot. Why do we even have it on our calendar's? Was George Washington Irish? I don't get it. To me it's just an excuse to go to a pub and get beered up. I'm sure G-d would be proud. :(

[Lulav]

This would give me reason enough not to participate in this 'holiday'

Patrick recounts that he had a vision a few years after returning home:
I saw a man coming, as it were from Ireland. His name was Victoricus, and he carried many letters, and he gave me one of them. I read the heading: "The Voice of the Irish". As I began the letter, I imagined in that moment that I heard the voice of those very people who were near the wood of Foclut, which is beside the western sea—and they cried out, as with one voice: "We appeal to you, holy servant boy, to come and walk among us

[Kris10leigh]

Lulav, I agree with you whole heartedly.

And no, I'm pretty sure George Washington was not Irish. I think you hit the nail on the head with the excuse to go out and drink beer. My college had "green beer day" and you can imagine what that meant. The thought of it repulsed me then and my opinion has only gotten stronger.

[HaReb]

There are, and can be, no man-made saints! It's a Catholic or High Anglican (Episcopalian) thing.

[Lulav]

I like this verse

Behold! he putteth no trust in his saints, yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

We are not told anywhere in scripture to revere the saints, who is man to say what is more worthy of recognition of one man over another?

[visionary]

Lulav's post about HaSatan (I hope I got that right) made me think to ask this. I think I already know the answer, but thought it might make for a good discussion.

Do any of you celebrate St. Patrick's Day? Not as a holy day, but as a secular day?

My family does not, short of sending my kids to school in green so they don't get pinched. (There's no eye rolling emoticon...LOL) It was never even brought up for discussion at my house until last year. Apparently St. Patrick comes to my kids school, plays tricks while the kids are out of the room (overturns desks, writes on the board, etc.) and leaves chocolate. So my son thought St. Patrick's Day was a big day and was severely disappointed when we did nothing at our house. So we prepared him better this year. ;)It will turn you green :| real quick:sick: and you are suppose to enjoy that :D But keep praying with those that do :groupray:

[ContraMundum]

I have no problem with Patron saints. God makes the saints (I saw what you said HaReb), but we acknowledge God's work in those people. That's all a patron saint is- a remembrance of what God did through someone. This is just like what I lived with when I was growing up- remembering Rebbes etc. We had paintings of them around the house. I have Orthodox friends who have made pilgrimages to the burial place of a Rebbe and offer prayers there. It's a Judaic thing. Christians have just followed on.

However, I don't think getting drunk is Godly, and not only does it offend God but it more than likely offends St Patrick that people should be drunk at all. I don't even think he would have wanted a day in his honour. He was a godly (saintly) man who loved the good news.

[ContraMundum]

I like this verse

Behold! he putteth no trust in his saints, yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

I realise your more than obvious and overly-repetitive anti-Catholic bias, but I have yet to meet a serious Catholic or Orthodox Christian that puts his or her trust in anyone other than God. Therefore I hope you're not insinuating that the whole lot of them are sinners, are you?

I think verse would apply to those who do have misplaced trust in men though. I just haven't met anyone like that except for people that are not very devout in the first place or have an unbalanced idea of Christianity.

We are not told anywhere in scripture to revere the saints, who is man to say what is more worthy of recognition of one man over another?

The saints on earth are one with the saints departed. They have merely finished the race and may serve as examples to those of us who haven't. There is nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with acknowledging God's holiness working in and through them.

[Wags]

To answer the OP - my family does not acknowledge any patron saint days.

Contra - not all Jews grew up as you did. And your comment certainly explains your bias towards the catholic style of honoring persons of alleged godly reputation that are no longer among the living.

[ContraMundum]

Contra - not all Jews grew up as you did.

I know.....but it's certainly not uncommon, as most Orthodox I know share the same sentiments as I do about Judaism and it's tzadikim. Like Christians, Jews honor those who went before them in many different ways, including remembering their Yahrzeit (http://www.aish.com/literacy/lifecycle/The_Stages_of_Jewish_Mourning.asp#yartzeit) (even if they have died long ago) (http://www.ou.org/other/5765/rashi.htm) and even especially if they were holy. (http://www.rachelstomb.org/yahrzeil.html)

I guess it's equally fair to say that we would observe a yahrzeit for any loved one, in particular to say kiddish (http://www.aish.com/kaddish/why_kaddish.asp) for them for one Jewish year (traditionally the longest time someone could stay in Gehennom- which is more like Purhatory than Hell in Christian theology, but obviously not identical - for those interested in looking into this idea in Judaism more, read here (http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Journey_to_the_Next_World.asp)).

The parallels between that and Apostolic Christianity are obvious. I guess that's why I see a continuity and that kind of Christianity is appealing to me.


And your comment certainly explains your bias towards the catholic style of honoring persons of alleged godly reputation that are no longer among the living.

Cool! Thanks wags. :hug: I guess it's fair to say that the Jewish way makes sense to me, and the Catholics (among others) have merely kept it and continued in it.

[Lulav]

I realise your more than obvious and overly-repetitive anti-Catholic bias, And I too acknowledge your more that obvious and ad-nauseam repetitive defensive faith akin to Catholics and understand your reaction.

We are all entitled to our opinions, as asked by the OP. :)

[HaReb]

I think we need to be clear what we are talking about when we speak of saints - do we mean all those who have died in the faith, or do we mean those who have had a special privilege of remembrance formally put on them by man? the two things are worlds apart (or even heavens apart!).

I do wonder what CM means by people who are 'holy' - are not all believers 'holy' since it means, quite simply, being set apart. Or is CM speak of those who are ultra pious? Again, there is a world (or heavens) difference between those statements.

If we are speaking of the sainthood of all believers I have no problem with that, but I do not agree with man-made saints of any theological persuasion.

If we are speaking of all who are believers being holy, then I have no problem with that since calling oneself 'holy' is the very essence of being a believer - being set apart for G_d.

[johnd]

http://www.joe-ks.com/images/Invitation.gif

Reminds me of the end scene of It's a Wonderful Life.

[johnd]

Neither could I...

But this is how it must have appeared to look back at Pac Man chasing you...

http://www.picvault.info/images/536997513_laugh.gif

[johnd]

http://www.dreamstime.com/annoyed-smiley-icon-thumb32717.jpg

Reminds me of school teachers I had... they just didn't get me... {sigh}

[johnd]

And now... back to our regularly scheduled program...
http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/76/05/23360576.jpg

[Kris10leigh]

Johnd, that's funny. ;)

...continuing on with the program...

To me a saint is someone man has instituted as such. I don't want to be terribly negative toward the Catholic faith, but I certainly have my opinions. ;) I agree with other posters who say that man is not worthy to judge and make someone a saint. And then man makes statues of said Saints and bows before them, and prays to them. I've been told they aren't worshipped, but are highly revered. To me that screams "idols" and I don't believe you should pray to anyone but God. (And for me, that even includes Jesus, but I recognize I may be alone in that belief.)

[christinepro]

http://www.dreamstime.com/annoyed-smiley-icon-thumb32717.jpg

Reminds me of school teachers I had... they just didn't get me... {sigh}
Is that what happens when you drink too much green beer? Hehe!;)

[christinepro]

Johnd, that's funny. ;)

...continuing on with the program...

To me a saint is someone man has instituted as such. I don't want to be terribly negative toward the Catholic faith, but I certainly have my opinions. ;) I agree with other posters who say that man is not worthy to judge and make someone a saint. And then man makes statues of said Saints and bows before them, and prays to them. I've been told they aren't worshipped, but are highly revered. To me that screams "idols" and I don't believe you should pray to anyone but God. (And for me, that even includes Jesus, but I recognize I may be alone in that belief.) As believers and followers we are saints.

[ContraMundum]

And I too acknowledge your more that obvious and ad-nauseam repetitive defensive faith akin to Catholics and understand your reaction.

I just like us to be accurate when we talk of the faith of others. :)

We are all entitled to our opinions, as asked by the OP. :)

Indeed.

[ContraMundum]

I think we need to be clear what we are talking about when we speak of saints - do we mean all those who have died in the faith, or do we mean those who have had a special privilege of remembrance formally put on them by man? the two things are worlds apart (or even heavens apart!).

Not necessarily.

I do wonder what CM means by people who are 'holy' - are not all believers 'holy' since it means, quite simply, being set apart. Or is CM speak of those who are ultra pious? Again, there is a world (or heavens) difference between those statements.

I think that's a very narrow view of the various deeper inflections and meanings of the word "holy". All true believers are holy (set apart), but we are told to pursue moral and ethical holiness as well as spiritual sanctification. In the context of the deceased (which is the context of the discussion)- if they have run the course well and finished in holiness, then they are holy.

If we are speaking of the sainthood of all believers I have no problem with that, but I do not agree with man-made saints of any theological persuasion.

I guess it depends on whether or not you believe we who are on Earth are in actual communion with those faithful departed. It seems to me that the scriptures tell us that we are in full communion with those in Heaven, and they can know us. When Jews and Christians remember and revere their departed, they are merely acknowledging the work of God in those who are one step ahead of us. Obviously, the accompanying belief is that we can know in at least a minority of cases who has made it to Heaven (and we know for sure they know about us).

[Ivy]

In the context of the deceased (which is the context of the discussion)- if they have run the course well and finished in holiness, then they are holy.

When Jews and Christians remember and revere their departed, they are merely acknowledging the work of God in those who are one step ahead of us. Obviously, the accompanying belief is that we can know in at least a minority of cases who has made it to Heaven (and we know for sure they know about us).

It's funny that I've never thought about that last idea until a few months ago. It's very encouraging to feel that they are watching us and rooting for us, so to speak. :) Like, "C'mon Ivy you can do it! You'll make it! It's worth it all!" :)

[Lulav]

I think we need to be clear what we are talking about when we speak of saints - do we mean all those who have died in the faith, or do we mean those who have had a special privilege of remembrance formally put on them by man? the two things are worlds apart (or even heavens apart!).

I do wonder what CM means by people who are 'holy' - are not all believers 'holy' since it means, quite simply, being set apart. Or is CM speak of those who are ultra pious? Again, there is a world (or heavens) difference between those statements.

If we are speaking of the sainthood of all believers I have no problem with that, but I do not agree with man-made saints of any theological persuasion.

If we are speaking of all who are believers being holy, then I have no problem with that since calling oneself 'holy' is the very essence of being a believer - being set apart for G_d.I for one, was speaking in reference to the OP title, about 'St.' Patrick, so it would be what you said,
those who have had a special privilege of remembrance formally put on them by man? I have no problem with 'the saints' as G-d defines them. We who have the faith, are considered by him to be saints, set apart, kadushim, holy ones. But the church apparently sees it differently, but what else is new?

Yeshua said.

The first shall be last.

And

Your ways are not my ways..........

[Lulav]

It's funny that I've never thought about that last idea until a few months ago. It's very encouraging to feel that they are watching us and rooting for us, so to speak. :) Like, "C'mon Ivy you can do it! You'll make it! It's worth it all!" :)And how do they know that? Are they given special knowledge once desceased? Do they then become like G-d knowing all? That sounds very much like what is promoted in the pychic world.

All I'm saying is 'be careful', Yeshua is all you need in your corner, rooting you on, and reading what was recorded of those who have gone before us, those that walked with the L-RD and those who met him.

[Tonks]

It's a Catholic or High Anglican (Episcopalian) thing.

Correction: St. Patrick is an Orthodox saint as well.

[visionary]

And how do they know that? Are they given special knowledge once desceased? Do they then become like G-d knowing all? That sounds very much like what is promoted in the pychic world.

All I'm saying is 'be careful', Yeshua is all you need in your corner, rooting you on, and reading what was recorded of those who have gone before us, those that walked with the L-RD and those who met him.Scriptures says it is not possible for the dead to know anything.

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

[Lulav]

:thumbsup: Great verse!

[ContraMundum]

And how do they know that? Are they given special knowledge once desceased? Do they then become like G-d knowing all? That sounds very much like what is promoted in the pychic world.

In Heaven they know what's going on.

Luk 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Luk 15:10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

1Co 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.

(Referring to the departed faithful) Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


Likewise, their prayers are united with ours.

Rev 8:1 When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.


The faithful departed intercede for God's will on Earth-

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

That's all we are saying- they know, they pray before the Throne of God for matters on Earth.

All I'm saying is 'be careful', Yeshua is all you need in your corner, rooting you on, and reading what was recorded of those who have gone before us, those that walked with the L-RD and those who met him.This is true- yet there is nothing wrong with respecting the faithful departed, is there? Besides, we are called to intercede for each other- so clearly we need to be rooting for each other, and we are bid to have others "rooting" for us besides the Lord. That's what the Bible says.

I have yet to meet someone who objects to a living saint pray for them. I have no idea why they would logically deny the saints in Heaven doing likewise- even if we don't need to ask for their intercession, it is happening whether we believe it or not. It is happening whether we want it or not. It's a point of debate whether or not we need to "ask" them to pray for us. I accept that. I'm not much into anything further than what the Bible and ancient tradition says, but I'm ready to accept that there is a case for further investigation..

I for one, was speaking in reference to the OP title, about 'St.' Patrick, so it would be what you said,

I find it ironic how people are more than prepared to call themselves and other living believers "saints" yet object to allowing that title to faithful departed believers who have actually made a difference in the world. Doesn't it look rather arrogant?

[ContraMundum]

Scriptures says it is not possible for the dead to know anything.

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

A poetic verse form the perspective of the living- certainly to interpret that from a "soul sleep" position (eg The dead know nothing and are in static limbo- I hope you're not advocating that!) goes against Jewish scripture and tradition, not to mention the NT.

We know that departed saints appear on earth to interact with men (eg. Moses at the Transfiguration, Samuel to Saul, Matt 27:52 as well as a couple of accounts in the LXX and DSS etc). This would be absurd if we interpreted Ps 146:4 literally.

[Ivy]

Besides, we are called to intercede for each other- so clearly we need to be rooting for each other, and we are bid to have others "rooting" for us besides the Lord. That's what the Bible says.

I have yet to meet someone who objects to a living saint pray for them. I have no idea why they would logically deny the saints in Heaven doing likewise- even if we don't need to ask for their intercession, it is happening whether we believe it or not. It is happening whether we want it or not.

Yes, like I said, it's been really helpful to me lately to think that, hey, they might be interested in me, love me, care about me, be praying for me. It's cool. It helps me to feel less alone & isolated on this "ole weary earth."

And I've heard some folks refer to those who have gone before as "dead,"......but they're in the state of resurrected life, they're more alive than we are. I should BE so alive! :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Wags]

Did Samuel actually appear to Saul? Or was it a demon masquerading as Samuel?

The verse Vis quoted is not the only one to say that the dead are asleep.

What would be the point of a resurrection if folks weren't really dead?

[ContraMundum]

Did Samuel actually appear to Saul? Or was it a demon masquerading as Samuel?

Theorise all we like about that incident, it still doesn't prove the point because both Moses and Elijah were with Jesus at the Transfiguration. Obviously, they are awake. Likewise, even now, the martyrs pray before the throne- obviously, they are awake too.

The verse Vis quoted is not the only one to say that the dead are asleep. Yes, there's a few more- but like I said, they are obviously from man's perspective, as the scriptures clearly demonstrate that the departed in awake in Heaven. Unless you think those "sleep" verses overrule the portions of scripture that clearly teach an awakened and aware state of the departed, there is no problem here. Some people even theorise that the dead were in "soul sleep" until the ressurection of Jesus (when the departed saints arose and were seen around Jerusalem) to try to reconcile the two.

Soul sleep, btw, is a doctrine of the JWs.

What would be the point of a resurrection if folks weren't really dead?To resurrect the body- that's what resurrection is in Christianity as is stated in the Apostles Creed ("the resurrection of the body"). The spiritual resurrection of the soul happens at conversion (Eph 2:1-7), the resurrection of the body happens on the last day.

[HaReb]

In the context of the deceased (which is the context of the discussion)- if they have run the course well and finished in holiness, then they are holy.

When Jews and Christians remember and revere their departed, they are merely acknowledging the work of God in those who are one step ahead of us. Obviously, the accompanying belief is that we can know in at least a minority of cases who has made it to Heaven (and we know for sure they know about us).


Biblical support for this assumption, please?

[ContraMundum]

Biblical support for this assumption, please?

Which "assumption"?

I have no idea what you mean- are you denying that Jews and Christians don't revere their faithful departed????

[HaReb]

I know it's done, but so is murder - that doesn't make either necessarily right!

To re-phrase my question: Is that because of a Biblical imperative or just man's 'good' ideas?

[Henaynei]

Obviously, the accompanying belief is that we can know in at least a minority of cases who has made it to Heaven (and we know for sure they know about us). please explain what in your doctrine supports this assertion? On what facts is this knowledge predicated?

[ContraMundum]

I know it's done, but so is murder - that doesn't make either necessarily right!

To re-phrase my question: Is that because of a Biblical imperative or just man's 'good' ideas?

Interesting- are you operating on a Calvinist type assumption that there is no such thing as a good custom or tradition? For the record, I don't operate in such an assumption, but because I suspect you do I will go straight to scripture.

For a start, though, I'd say that reverence directed to certain people in the Bible is actually Biblical. Take for example the story of Joseph, the most obvious. He prophetically dreamt that others would revere him (Gen 37:3-9 as did Mary also did prophesy, Lk 1:48), and by the end of his life, even his bones were reverenced by the Jews (Ex. 13:19). The early Christians followed after this example and took, for example, the bones of the martyr Polycarp as relics. Interesting other scriptural verses to support this practice: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). By the way, this also happened with the holy living- "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12) and also consider Matt. 9:20-22 , Acts 5:14-16.

The commandments also tell us to honour our father and mother, and even to honour the elders in our midst (Lev. 19:32) and our clergy and the righteous (Ex. 28:2, Rom 13:7, 1 Tim 5:17, Matt 10:41). Heb 13:7: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. " Obviously, this does not cease with physical death.

It's clear in scripture that we are to honour the faithful living, and even the departed. Honour given to holy people is scriptural. When they pass into glory they do not cease to live, but rather are more alive.

[ContraMundum]

please explain what in your doctrine supports this assertion? On what facts is this knowledge predicated?

OK, well, as we have already seen we know that there are saints in Heaven (the 24 elders, the martrys, the Angels, those who have appeared on earth after death like Elijah and Moses, and others like Enoch). Those alone should suffice to answer your question. That's why I said we can be sure of a minority of cases.

But, if you are asking how we know of any others- the only answer I can give you is that anything that has occured after the canon of the scripture was closed can only happen with the testimony of the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit and is the Body of Christ. We know saints make it into Heaven, that's all. We are commanded to follow after the godly examples in the lives of holy ones (Heb 13:7), we know that for sure. I think it's ok ascribe the name saint to holy people after the canon of scripture is closed. There is no time in history when this wasn't done.

[Henaynei]

OK, well, as we have already seen we know that there are saints in Heaven (the 24 elders, the martyrs, the Angels, those who have appeared on earth after death like Elijah and Moses, and others like Enoch). Those alone should suffice to answer your question. That's why I said we can be sure of a minority of cases. Angels don't count and they have made it clear numerous times that we are not to petition them or venerate them in any way; martyrs: we can't know who achieved Heaven and who did not based on their works, martyrdom or not - only G-d knows who merits Heaven based on their heart toward him - it may look good to us but scripture says many times what looks meritorious to man is filthy rags to HaShem, so unless HaShem has specifically told us that this or that specific one is in Heaven we are just guessing - and there is not one example in scripture of any righteous person petitioning or venerating a martyr or anyone who had died; Eliyahu and Moshe spoke not a word nor did they receive petition from those who witnessed them, in fact Kefa blurted out about building a memorial shrine to each of them but this was not permitted and HaShem *immediately* redirected Kefa and the witnesses to Yeshua alone. Neither was there any indication that Eliyahu or Moshe were to be venerated in any way.
But, if you are asking how we know of any others - the only answer I can give you is that anything that has occurred after the canon of the scripture was closed can only happen with the testimony of the Church (by "Church" in this case you mean the presbyters of the "apostolic" tradition, no?) which is guided by the Holy Spirit and is the Body of Christ. We know saints make it into Heaven, that's all. but do we know who are "saints" or holy ones as you call them and how do we, mortals all, claim to know who has and has not made it into Heaven except where HaShem has specifically told us who has?
We are commanded to follow after the godly examples in the lives of holy ones (Heb 13:7), we know that for sure. true, that passage tells us to reflect on the examples set by those who have brought to us the message of Salvation (Remember your leaders, those who spoke G-d's message to you. Reflect on the results of their way of life, and imitate their trust) and could certainly extend to those who have gone before us in leading exemplary obedient lives.I think it's ok ascribe the name saint to holy people after the canon of scripture is closed. There is no time in history when this wasn't done. this is true, if one is speaking of gentiles, for their history of lauding humans and lifting them to "holy" status is long standing and is unbroken from long before the Advent of Messiah. It is this tradition that they have brought into Christianity. Jews, however, have no tradition (until the last few hundred years, influenced by kabbalah) of sanctifying their dead. Remembering them, certainly, honoring their example and teachings, true that as well, but never petitioning their intercession nor setting aside a day specifically to celebrate the ancient fathers of wisdom. You don't hear of a St Akiva day, or a St Enoch day.... and you never will among Jews, followers of Yeshua or not....

[ContraMundum]

Angels don't count

They do to the church- they are "saints" (holy, set apart). They are not humans, but they are still holy.

and they have made it clear numerous times that we are not to petition them or venerate them in any way; martyrs: we can't know who achieved Heaven and who did not based on their works, martyrdom or not - only G-d knows who merits Heaven based on their heart toward him - it may look good to us but scripture says many times what looks meritorious to man is filthy rags to HaShem, so unless HaShem has specifically told us that this or that specific one is in Heaven we are just guessing - and there is not one example in scripture of any righteous person petitioning or venerating a martyr or anyone who had died; We haven't been talking about petitioning the departed, have we?

You seriously can't deny some of them being in Heaven just because you claim that we can't know for sure- are you honestly saying that?

Be more careful here- I said we know for sure that some are in heaven. The scriptures say that there are some there. You can't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Likewise, I'd you to tell me why we should ignore the scriptures that tell us about the prayers of the saints being presented by the Angels in Heaven. It's fact.

Eliyahu and Moshe spoke not a word

They spoke to Yeshua. Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. The Greek is pretty clear that this was a conversation. (συλλαλουντες)

nor did they receive petition from those who witnessed them, in fact Kefa blurted out about building a memorial shrine to each of them but this was not permitted and HaShem *immediately* redirected Kefa and the witnesses to Yeshua alone. Neither was there any indication that Eliyahu or Moshe were to be venerated in any way.Well, you've completely read into my posts what you wanted to see here, so you could wheel out your anti-Rome thingy. We're not talking about petitioning. I haven't said that once. Right now, this post looks like you're making a point- but only to yourself. The saints and Angels pray for us. I believe that. I also believe that the Bible teaches us to honour them. This is something the church has inherited from the Jews. I've not mentioned petitioning. I think there is a case for investigating it, but that's all I've said at this point (as I made clear in post #29).


but do we know who are "saints" or holy ones as you call them and how do we, mortals all, claim to know who has and has not made it into Heaven except where HaShem has specifically told us who has?I think He does. But then again, my ecclesiology is different to yours. I actually think He has a relationship with His chosen that is based on more than one individual's religous feelings at a time. I believe in corporate revelation on things.


true, that passage tells us to reflect on the examples set by those who have brought to us the message of Salvation (Remember your leaders, those who spoke G-d's message to you. Reflect on the results of their way of life, and imitate their trust) and could certainly extend to those who have gone before us in leading exemplary obedient lives. this is true, if one is speaking of gentiles,Gosh, I can't believe you think this exhortation from Hebrews is based on race and is allowed to one race only.

for their history of lauding humans and lifting them to "holy" status is long standing and is unbroken from long before the Advent of Messiah. It is this tradition that they have brought into Christianity. Jews, however, have no tradition (until the last few hundred years, influenced by kabbalah) of sanctifying their dead. Remembering them, certainly, honoring their example and teachings, true that as well, but never petitioning their intercession nor setting aside a day specifically to celebrate the ancient fathers of wisdom. You don't hear of a St Akiva day, or a St Enoch day.... and you never will among Jews, followers of Yeshua or not....You forgot- the bones of Joseph, the bones of Elisha. Sorry Henny- Jews have done this since long before Yeshua. I like you to prove otherwise. I'd be interested and so would the rest of the Jewish people. You need to realise that Jews have Yarhziet- which is the basically same thing as a Saints Day by another name. Names and their yarhziet are recorded in the shule- just like the churches do. However, in Judaism this includes prayer for the departed after their death for their purification in the afterlife- which happened way before Yeshua as is recorded in sacred writings. The Catholics do that too. Why do you have to think that anything remotely "Catholic" is "Gentile"? It's an embarrasing paradigm for me to observe, because much (not all) of what they do is more Jewish than what some people here believe in. I'd love to discuss that, and will do so in another forum shortly.

What I find amazing about this all is that people who claim to be "Jewish" in their theology will deny elements of Judaism based on largely Protestant arguments. My goodness, shake yourselves free of Calvin and Luther and get Apostolic.