Genesis 32:22

[Kris10leigh]

Jacob Wrestles at Peniel 22 ¶ And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok.
23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had.
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: Gen. 35.10 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/35.html#10) for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore isthat thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
it 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el: 33 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/32.html#note33) for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
31 And as he passed over Penu'el the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

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To me, this text is saying that Jacob actually saw God. I thought no one had ever seen the face of God. Even Moses saw God as a burning bush. Why would God himself be wrestiling with Jacob?

I must admit too, I got the above copy/paste from a source online, but what I read last night was actually funny. My own version is in much more modern English and basically made the whole event seem rather ridiculous.

[Lulav]

Many consider this the pre-incarnate Yeshua that he wrestled with, that is why he would not give his name.

You may want to try reading different version, some are ridiculous in their translations, but G-ds word is never ridiculous.

:)

[Kris10leigh]

Ah yes, I agree about the ridiclous. No, God's word is not ridiculous. But the version I was reading...was. I felt comfortable in saying that because I looked it up online and it sounded much better in old English. Modern English was very haulting and it made God (or whoever the person was) sound juvinile. "Stop that. Let me go." That kind of thing.

[Lulav]

Ah, I getcha! :)

That is why going back to the original can be so meaningful. Not only that but there are other meanings in the words by the hebrew letters used that also shed light. G-ds word is living, which means it is forever bringing forth life, but also that it lives and breaths and keeps producing, hard to explain ...................but :prayer: for wisdom.

[johnd]

Jacob Wrestles at Peniel

To me, this text is saying that Jacob actually saw God. I thought no one had ever seen the face of God. Even Moses saw God as a burning bush. Why would God himself be wrestiling with Jacob?

I must admit too, I got the above copy/paste from a source online, but what I read last night was actually funny. My own version is in much more modern English and basically made the whole event seem rather ridiculous.


Jesus made the point that no one had seen THE FATHER (John 6:46) nor heard his voice. So, sorry about this non-trinitarian believers, there must be another person in the Godhead whom men have seen and that in the form of a man... now who could that be.... ?

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 1:15-1615 Who is the {visible} image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[Kris10leigh]

[quote=johnd;44232567]Jesus made the point that no one had seen THE FATHER (John 6:46) nor heard his voice. So, sorry about this non-trinitarian believers, there must be another person in the Godhead whom men have seen and that in the form of a man... now who could that be.... ?

quote]
I don't understand what you mean. :confused: Could you please ellaborate?

No one had seen the Father...right, no one had seen God. But the scripture I laid out says differently.

What do you mean "another person" in the Godhead? Aren't you still talking about God?

Please note, obviously I am non-trin, and I'm not trying to debate at all. Even if I did believe in the trinity, I still wouldn't get it. :scratch: And if I'm not asking too much, do you mind explaining without quoting scripture? I'm having a hard enough time with Genesis at present. ;) I admit I'm not well versed in the Bible.

[Kris10leigh]

That is why going back to the original can be so meaningful. Not only that but there are other meanings in the words by the hebrew letters used that also shed light.

I wish I could go back to the original! That is my biggest hang-up with religion today. I'm tired of being told how to interpret the Bible. I wish I could just read it for myself, but that is impossible without being able to really read the original. You are absolutely right about the Hebrew letters meaning other things besides what we are handed.

[Henaynei]

here's a different version for comparison

22 He got up that night, took his two wives, his two slave-girls, and his eleven children, and forded the Yabok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, then sent his possessions across;
24 and Ya'akov was left alone. Then some man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he did not defeat Ya'akov, he struck Ya'akov's hip socket, so that his hip was dislocated while wrestling with him. 26 The man said, "Let me go, because it's daybreak." But Ya'akov replied, "I won't let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked, "What is your name?" and he answered, "Ya'akov." 28 Then the man said, "From now on, you will no longer be called Ya'akov, but Isra'el; because you have shown your strength to both G-d and men and have prevailed." 29 Ya'akov asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he answered, "Why are you asking about my name?" and blessed him there. 30 Ya'akov called the place P'ni-El [face of G-d], "Because I have seen G-d face to face, yet my life is spared." 31 As the sun rose upon him he went on past P'ni-El, limping at the hip. 32 This is why, to this day, the people of Isra'el do not eat the thigh muscle that passes along the hip socket - because the man struck Ya'akov's hip at its socket. cjb

[Kris10leigh]

Thank you, Henaynei! When I pick up a good piece of fiction, I'm a stickler for how it is written and how the words flow together. I can't enjoy the story if I don't enjoy the writing. Apparently I'm that way with scripture as well. I like your version much better! What version do you have that has Hebrew names like "Ya'akov" instead of "Jacob"?

I still don't see definitely that the man he fought was God, unless God was testing him. But it doesn't say that. God could have easily won against Jacob, but the man didn't. And God wouldn't have needed to ask him his name. Unless it was just a lead in to renaming him "Israel".

[Lulav]

Its the CJC, the Complete Jewish Bible, you can read it online here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/)

Just imput what chapter and verse in the right field and use the drop down menu where it says 'using' and you will find it in the list. Also there is the King James version using the Strongs so you can look up word by clicking on ones that are underlined to see the original word and its meaning.

Have fun! Studying the word is the greatest modern day gift we have!

[visionary]

How often have we wrestled with God ourselves... only for it to dawn on us who we are wrestling with.. and only then do we like Jacob .. hang on and beg not only for forgiveness but His blessing.

[HadassahSukkot]

Targum Onkelos reads interestingly enough..

And Jakob remained alone; and a Man wrestled with him till the morning ascended. And he saw that he prevailed not with him, and he touched the hollow[2] (http://www.tulane.edu/%7Entcs/onk/Gen32_36.htm#_ftn2) of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was dislocated[3] (http://www.tulane.edu/%7Entcs/onk/Gen32_36.htm#_ftn3) in wrestling with him. And he said, Let me go;[4] (http://www.tulane.edu/%7Entcs/onk/Gen32_36.htm#_ftn4) for the morning ascendeth. And he said, I will not let Thee go, unless Thou bless me. And He said to him, What is thy name? And he said, Jakob. And He said, Thy name shall be no longer Jakob, but Israel; for a prince art thou before the Lord, and with men, and thou hast prevailed. And Jakob asked Him, and said, Show me now Thy Name! And He said, Why dost thou ask My Name? And He blessed him there. And Jakob called the name of the place Peniel: because I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face, and my soul hath been saved! And the sun arose upon him as he passed over Penuel, and he went lame upon his thigh. Therefore the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day, because He touched the hollow of Jakob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

[Kris10leigh]

What does Jacob mean when he asks to be "blessed"? I get the feeling "blessings" had a different meaning than they do for me today. I can't imagine fighting with anyone and then asking that person to bless me. Does anyone have any insight into that?