Genesis 34

[Kris10leigh]

I am working my way through Genesis at the moment (though I admit I skipped all the begots. :sleep: ;) ) Last night, some of my reading was almost comical. I wanted to come and find out how we are supposed to take some of this. I think I'll make separate threads out of my questions.

First:
Genesis 34
This is the story where Dinah is raped and then Shechem wants to marry her. Jacob says "Sure, but first you and all your men must be circumsized." So Shechem gladly goes off to his village and convinces all the men to be circumsized. Then, while they're in pain and still recovering, Jacob and his sons go into the village and kill them all! Then they take their women and children. :eek: What are we supposed to learn from the fact that Jacob used trickery in this way?

[Lulav]

I am working my way through Genesis at the moment (though I admit I skipped all the begots. :sleep: ;) ) Last night, some of my reading was almost comical. I wanted to come and find out how we are supposed to take some of this. I think I'll make separate threads out of my questions.

First:
Genesis 34
This is the story where Dinah is raped and then Shechem wants to marry her. Jacob says "Sure, but first you and all your men must be circumsized." So Shechem gladly goes off to his village and convinces all the men to be circumsized. Then, while they're in pain and still recovering, Jacob and his sons go into the village and kill them all! Then they take their women and children. :eek: What are we supposed to learn from the fact that Jacob used trickery in this way? I think you should slow down. You aren't grasping the true words written there and that can be dangerous. This is a very condensed book, that is why we study parshas each week, and for genesis I don't think a week is long enough for each one!
Jacob was not a part of this, only Simon and Levi took part in the slaughter.

Read what Jacob says about them in Genesis 49: 5-6 when he gives them all their blessings for generations to come

[Kris10leigh]

Quick reply due to time:
Yes, I should slow down but right now I'm just reading through as a once through. I'll actually study it later. Right now I just want to be familiar with it and I'm enjoying asking questions about it. I'd like to participate in some of the other discussions floating around here, but I'm nowhere near ready for that! Gotta run. It's later than I thought.

[Lulav]

Ok, come back when you can spend more time, but remember, when studying G-ds word to always pray first and ask for understanding, you will get so much more out of it then!

:)

[johnd]

I am working my way through Genesis at the moment (though I admit I skipped all the begots. :sleep: ;) )

"when they begin the begiune..."

[Lulav]

Remember the end is told at the beginning so it deserves much study.

[Kris10leigh]

Remember the end is told at the beginning so it deserves much study.
:scratch: I'm so sorry...should that make sense to me? ;) I'm feeling so unschooled at the moment.

[Kris10leigh]

I think you should slow down. You aren't grasping the true words written there and that can be dangerous. This is a very condensed book, that is why we study parshas each week, and for genesis I don't think a week is long enough for each one!
Jacob was not a part of this, only Simon and Levi took part in the slaughter.

Read what Jacob says about them in Genesis 49: 5-6 when he gives them all their blessings for generations to come

What are "parshas" please?

[ChavaK]

23 Shall not their cattle and their substance and all their beasts be ours? only let us consent unto them, and they will dwell with us. It is also important to note that Shechem's people were not innocents.
They were planning not only to intermarry with the daughters (which would have led to the destruction of the Jewish people)
but were also plotting to steal all the wealth ( "cattle and substance").

After that, it would have only been a matter of time until they
destroyed the people of Israel after stealing their possesions.

[Lulav]

:scratch: I'm so sorry...should that make sense to me? ;) I'm feeling so unschooled at the moment. It's a paraphrase from Isaiah 46

9 "Remember things that happened at the beginning, long ago - that I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 At the beginning I announce the end, proclaim in advance things not yet done; and I say that my plan will hold, I will do everything I please to do.
Genesis means beginning:)


What are "parshas" please? Parashas are portions of the Torah read each week. For instance the one this topic is on is from Parashah 8, called Vayishlach meaning, 'He sent' because the first two words in the Hebrew mean that. It starts as Genesis 32:4 and goes to the end of chapter 36.

It is also important to note that Shechem's people were not innocents.
They were planning not only to intermarry with the daughters (which would have led to the destruction of the Jewish people)
but were also plotting to steal all the wealth ( "cattle and substance").

After that, it would have only been a matter of time until they
destroyed the people of Israel after stealing their possesions. Oh yes, they had devious plans to take over this little clan, so it was at the very best interests that Dina did not marry into them! However I can't say I agree with the way Levi and Simon went about it, but it did solve the problem, and hopefully stood as an example to others living around them not to mess with that family! ;)

[Henaynei]

Jacob did NOT deceive the men of that town - in fact he takes his son's to task and berates them for dealing falsely with those men and for endangering the lives of his entire family/camp.... if I recall right - and I may not because I've not read it is a while... it was Ruven, who was always rash, who instigated this treachery...

[Lulav]

Henaynei, you aren't reading the other posts in the threads are you? ;) ( PS, It was Levi and Simion)

[Kris10leigh]

Thanks so much! This dialogue is quite helpful.

And Henaynei, you are correct that Jacob berates them later. I read it again. I guess the first time I read it I felt as though Jacob was doing this on purpose, knowing full well that his sons would later go to the village. I thought he somehow had a hand in it. I see now, I think.

[visionary]

Big brothers have a way of dealing with anyone who messes around with their sister... especially if it is their only sister.

[HadassahSukkot]

Big brothers have a way of dealing with anyone who messes around with their sister... especially if it is their only sister.
Targum Jonathan

XXXIV. And Dinah the daughter of Leah whom she bare to Jakob, went forth to see the manners of the daughters of the people of the land And Shekem, the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the land, saw her, and took her by force, and lay with her and afflicted her. And his soul delighted in Dinah the daughter of Jakob; and he loved the girl, and spake kindly to the heart of the girl. And Shekem spake to Hamor his father, saying, Take for me this damsel to wife. But Jakob had heard that he had polluted Dinah his daughter, And his sons were with the flocks in the field, and Jakob was silent until they came.

And Hamor the father of Shekem came forth to Jakob to speak with him. And the sons of Jakob had come up from the field when they heard. And the men were indignant, and very violently moved, because Shekem had wrought dishonour in Israel in lying with the daughter of Jakob; for so it was not right to have been done.

And Hamor spake with them, saying, The soul of Shekem my son delighteth in your daughter: give her, I pray, to him to wife; and conjoin yourselves by marriage with us. Give your daughters to us, and take our daughters to you; and dwell with us, and the land shall be before you, to dwell where you please and do business in it and possess it. And Shekem said to her father and to her brethren, Let me find grace[5] (http://www.tulane.edu/%7Entcs/pj/pjgen32-36.htm#_ftn5) in your sight, and what you shall tell me I will give. Multiply upon me greatly dowry and gift, and I will give as you shall tell me; only give me the damsel to wife. [JERUSALEM.Dotation and marriage portion.] But the sons of Jakob answered Shekem. and Hamor his father with subtilty, and so spake, because he had polluted Dinah their sister, and said to them, We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to a man who is uncircumcised, because that would be a disgrace to us. But in this we will accede to you, if you will be as we are by circumcising every male. And we will give our daughters to you, and will take your daughters to us, and dwell with you, and be one people. But if you will not hearken to us to be circumcised, we will take our daughter by force and will go. And their words were pleasing in the eyes of Hamor, and in the eyes of Shekem, the son of Hamor. And the young man delayed not to do the thing; because he wished for the daughter of Jakob; and he was more honourable than all his father's house.

And Hamor and Shekem his son came to the gate of their city, and spake with the men of the gate of their city, saying, These men are friendly with us; and they may dwell in the land and do business in it; and the land, behold, it is broad (in) limits before them; let us take their daughters to us for wives, and give our daughters to them. But in this only will the men accede to us, to dwell with us, and to be one people, by every male of us being circumcised as they are. Their flocks, and their substance, and all their cattle, will they not be ours? Only let us consent to them, and they will dwell with us. And all they who came out of the gate of his city received from Hamor and from Shekem, his son; and they circumcised every male, all who came out of the gate of the city.

And it was on the third day, when they were weak from the pain of their circumcision, two of the sons of Jakob, Shimeon and Levi, the brothers of Dinah, took each man his sword, and came upon the city, which was dwelling securely and killed every male. And Hamor and Shekem his son they killed with the edge of the sword; and they took Dinah from the house of Shekem, and went forth. And the rest of the sons of Jakob came to the spoil of the slain, and they sacked the city because they had polluted their sister in the midst of it. Their flocks, and oxen, and asses, and whatever was in the city or in the field they spoiled; and all their wealth and all their little ones they took and spoiled, and all that was in the houses.

And Jakob said to Shimeon and Levi, You have made my name to go forth as evil among the inhabitants of the land, among the Kenaanites and Phezerites. And I am a people of (small) number, and they will gather together against me, and destroy me and the men of my house. And Shimeon and Levi answered, It would not have been fit to be said in the congregations of Israel that the uncircumcised polluted the virgin, and the worshippers of idols debased the daughter of Jakob: but it is fit that it should be said, The uncircumcised were slain on account of the virgin, and the worshippers of idols on account of the daughter of Jakob. Shekem bar Hamor will not (now) deride us with his words; for as a whorish woman and an outcast who hath no avenger would he have made our sister, if we had not done this thing.

[JERUSALEM. The two sons of Jakob answered together, and said to Israel their father, It would not be fit to be said in the congregations of Israel, in their house of instruction, that the uncircumcised polluted the virgin, and the worshippers of idols the daughter of Jakob; but it is fit that it be said in the congregations of Israel and in their house of instruction, that the uncircumcised were put to death for the sake of the virgin, and the worshippers of idols because they had defiled Dinah the daughter of Jakob. And Shekem bar Hamor will not boast in his heart and say, As a woman who hath no man to avenge her injury, so hath Dinah the daughter of Jakob been made. And they said, As an impure woman and an outcast would he have accounted our sister.]