Predestination?

[Music4Hym777]

Hey everyone,

I have never believed in presdestination, but there are a few places in the Bible that it talks about it. But then the Bible also talks about God calling each and every one of us to be His disciple, to be in His family. Someone help me please, because I dont believe it but the main verses that are confusing me is Romans 8:28 through the end of the chapter, plus the end of the chapter says that NOTHING can separate us from God, it doesn't say that Nothing of those that are predestined can separate us from God.

[JVAC]

While Lotar formulates your perfect response you can browse such Lutheran works as, "Bondage of the Will" by famed author Dr. Martin Luther circa 1525. I'll also try and make something up :D.

-James

[Music4Hym777]

While Lotar formulates your perfect response you can browse such Lutheran works as, "Bondage of the Will" by famed author Dr. Martin Luther circa 1525. I'll also try and make something up :D.

-James
Yeah, Icant find a copy of "Bondage of the Will"

[JVAC]

Well for starters we must always acknowledge our sinful nature. Psalm 53 is an awesome convictor. We are born dead, for we are conceived in sin. Now it was Luther's perspective that through this sinful nature it is impossible to believe in the Gospel. Thus the Holy Spirit is required to call a soul to believing the God's promises. The work of the Holy Spirit is done through Word and Sacrament and it is through these tools that faith can be aroused. Yet there are those who, due to the hardness of their own hearts, deny God and attribute him as a liar and refuse his promise.

Now further talk into predestination gets a little fuzzy for me. Partly because I am partly calvinist, and partly arminian which I guess makes me Lutheran :P .

The good thing is, this is a non-issue, inasmuch as, it does not endanger your soul should you believe one way or the other. So feel free to differ from other people on this issue, but I agree with the first paragraph, but if I were to discuss it further I probably would stray from Luther's teaching.

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

Yeah, Icant find a copy of "Bondage of the Will"
http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

:D

[JVAC]

Yeah, Icant find a copy of "Bondage of the Will"
I have one, I found it at Borders! (You can forget about finding it at Berean!!! :D ). I went there and bought an anthology of Luther's works, a small one at that. Just the main ones: "Freedom of a Christian Man", "Pagan Servitude", "95 Thesis", Various prefaces to books in the Bible, "Bondage of the Will", "Secular Authority", "Heidlburg Thesis", etc.

-James

[JVAC]

http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

:D
Ok, that is awesome!!!!! I want to give you a great big hug!! Wow, and to think I read the whole thing, (I thought the letter was dry, I never enjoyed predestination).

I say read that! :D

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, that is awesome!!!!! I want to give you a great big hug!! Wow, and to think I read the whole thing, (I thought the letter was dry, I never enjoyed predestination).

I say read that! :D

-JamesWow! lol Ummm OK...

:hug: :D

Do I get a kiss for posting this one? j/k
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

^_^

[JVAC]

Wow! lol Ummm OK...

:hug: :D

Do I get a kiss for posting this one? j/k
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

^_^
No, just a hand shake ;).

-James

[Music4Hym777]

Okay, more confused now, I thought Lutherans didn't believe in predestination

[Rechtgläubig]

Haha JVAC! :D



I love this quote: "It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it."

KA-BOOM!

:D

[Music4Hym777]

Okay, here's another, where can I find "A Common Calling" online to read?

[VigilanteHamster]

Soooo... uhhh, does God actually will that some go to Hell, then? :confused: I thought He wanted all to be saved... it seems kind of awful that people were created to go to Hell by God's will. :(

[Music4Hym777]

Soooo... uhhh, does God actually will that some go to Hell, then? :confused: I thought He wanted all to be saved... it seems kind of awful that people were created to go to Hell by God's will. :(
Thats exactly my point, but I would like a straight answer on the doctrine

[Rechtgläubig]

Soooo... uhhh, does God actually will that some go to Hell, then? :confused: I thought He wanted all to be saved... it seems kind of awful that people were created to go to Hell by God's will. :(
No ma'am. :D We are single predestinationists (is that a word? LOL)

Man is responsible for his own damnation.

[Rechtgläubig]

....

Calvin taught a double predestination, a predestination to salvation and a predestination to damnation. In his Institutes of the Christian Religion he wrote, "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in himself, what he would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, is predestinated to life or to death" (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter XXI, paragraph V).

Calvin's teaching makes good logical sense but is not taught in Scripture. Predestination or election is used only of believers (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-7). Predestination pertains to salvation not damnation. For the Bible also tells us that "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The Bible says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). Ezekiel writes, "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11). To say that God not only wants some people to be damned but actually predestines them to damnation is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.

Calvinism teaches limited atonement, that is, Jesus died only for the elect. However, the Bible teaches, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). John the Baptist pointed at Jesus and declared, "Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Paul writes, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19). To teach limited atonement is to contradict these clear passages of Scripture.

God loves the whole world (John 3:16). He wants his saving gospel message proclaimed to the whole world (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:47). God is absolutely serious about his love for the whole world and is equally serious about wanting the whole world to know that Jesus died for the sins of all.

Human reason has problems with the question why some are saved and not others. Human reason has trouble reconciling God's love for the whole world and his universal atonement with the particular predestination of some to salvation. Calvin solves the problem by drawing a conclusion that is logical according to human reason but which contradicts the Scriptures. He correctly says that those who are finally saved have been predestined by God for salvation, but he incorrectly concludes that those who are lost have been predestined by God to damnation. According to the Bible, if we are saved it is all to the credit of our God and his grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:10-28, Romans 8:29-30). If we are lost it is all our own fault (John 3:16-18, Romans 6:23a, Romans 1:18-23, Matthew 23:37). These statements might not be satisfying to human reason but they are statements based on what Scripture clearly teaches. Since we dare not draw apparently logical conclusions which the Scriptures do not allow, we take our reason captive to God’s Word (2 Corinthians 10:5) and let God be God. As St. Paul declares, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Who has ever given to God that God should repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen (Romans 11:33-36).

You are probably looking for a more detailed answer than this web site can offer. I suggest that you acquire a copy of Predestination: Chosen by Christ by Pastor John A. Moldstad, Jr. This volume is part of the the People's Bible Teachings Series and is available from Northwestern Publishing House - www.nph.net

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=5940&cuTopic_topicID=10

[JVAC]

Soooo... uhhh, does God actually will that some go to Hell, then? :confused: I thought He wanted all to be saved... it seems kind of awful that people were created to go to Hell by God's will. :(
I tried touching on that earlier, man is sinful, and only he himself, damns himself, either he ascribes truth to God and believes the promise, or he attributes truthfulness to himself and denies God's promise making him to be a liar.

Now on to other business :D ....


Haha JVAC! :D



I love this quote: "It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it."

KA-BOOM!

:D It is my opinion, that God knows me so well, he knows my choices. I don't think for a minute God doesn't know what will happen, but I do think that the choices I made were mine, and I am to blame for what I have made my life out to be, though God has given me infinite Grace and there were a few times when he had to push me in the right direction by virtue of the Holy Ghost.

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

It is my opinion, that God knows me so well, he knows my choices. I don't think for a minute God doesn't know what will happen, but I do think that the choices I made were mine, and I am to blame for what I have made my life out to be, though God has given me infinite Grace and there were a few times when he had to push me in the right direction by virtue of the Holy Ghost.

-James
Another great quote! :D

[VigilanteHamster]

Sooooo... God KNOWS what will happen, but it's OUR choices that get us there? :confused:

[JVAC]

Sooooo... God KNOWS what will happen, but it's OUR choices that get us there? :confused:
That is my thinking, and not the exact teaching of any particular denomination. There is infact human choice, but the unregenerate human cannot make good choices for they are consumed in sin. Until the Holy Ghost imparts upon one grace, it is impossible for one to do 'good' or to even choose it. Yet after that, with the help of the Holy Ghost it is possible for a Christian to choose good and to choos sin, yet there is no way a person can come to God without the help of the Holy Ghost.

You might be thinking, how can we choose something if God already knows. Well, it is because you are thinking time in our terms. There are many different scientific scenarios that we could think through, but I will just say this: It is possible to know a person so well one would know which choice one would take; and this knowledge in no way negates the person from the responsibility of that decission. In the same way God can know us so well, that he would know our decision before we actually make it, just as it is possible to know a spouses decision before they make it and yet one is still responsible for their choice, whether someone knew they would make that choice or not.

If a kid wants to write on a wall in a class room, one would expect the teacher to say "No" and yet when the teacher says "No" the teacher is still responsible for that decision. If that same kid goes home and complains to his parents, his parents would undoubtedly, if they thought writing on walls was a super awesome thing to do, take up issue with the teacher for the teacher's decision, yet we all knew that the teacher would say "No". Did the teacher make that decision? Yes.

Likewise, it is quite possible for man to have complete freewill while still having someone know what decisions they will make (partly because we are so predictable). Now our freewill does have its bounds, for it is impossible for us to will, as dead sinners, life in God without help from the Holy Ghost. For how easy is it for someone to make a choice for plan B if they never heard of a plan B?? When one hears of a spectacular plan B, one doubts it unless something really convincing is there, and that is the Holy Ghost. No one can come to God except by the call of the Holy Ghost.

So it is truly easy to say that in all matters man has freewill, yet because he is born in sin he is unable, on his own account, to choose God, yet man still has freewill to choose which gas price is better for him. Yet even though freewill is possible in everything outside salvation, it is still possible for God to know your actions and decissions before they happen.

(This has been a culmination of a lot of Lutheran Theology plus my preconceptions, and not necessarily held as a Church view)

-James

-James