My Oriental Orthodox Friends!

[ReadingForOrders]

Let me begin this post by stating that my Church is not (yet) recognized by any of the Oriental Patriarchs. We fully admit this although our succession does include Abuna Basilios of Ethiopia. I let you know this because I have no intention of being dishonest with any of you.

Our Metropolitan has been in contact with the offices of two different Oriental Patriarchs and it is our hope that within our generation we will once again be in communion with our Oriental Orthodox brothers and sisters as well as hopefully some great day all of those who claim Christ.

I am here to ask you permission to partake in your discussions. I assure you I will not be contentious or argumentative with you my brothers and sisters. I am currently considered a seminarian, I am completing an advanced degree in Theology from a Non-Orthodox School and am working with our Metropolitan to attempt to make up for the obvious gaps and misinformation.

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

Tom

[copticorthodoxy]

You are welcome to post in the Oriental Orthodox forum ..But i think you shouldn't hold the Oriental Orthodox faith icon till your church regognized as Canonical Oriental Orthodox Church .

So , what is your Church , its history , its roots ??
why you would like to join the Ancient Orthodox Churches?

[ReadingForOrders]

Thank you for your welcome!

I cannot evidently post links yet but I will as soon as I am permitted. We fully admit that we are not yet considered Canonical and I do not wish to misrepresent myself. While I consider our body as part of the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church I realize that this will not be accepted by most unless and until we are in Communion with one of the Patriarchs. I hold no hard feelings for this and understand it.

For what it is worth our body was one of those that were planted here (U.S.) and then became ambiguous and almost disappeared from existence. As I understand it we were just kind of forgotten and left by ourselves. This of course is something that we are working on correcting.

I have visited the Abouna of the local Coptic Orthodox Church and he has been very gracious in assisting me with studies etc. I am hoping he will help me to study Aramaic, as I will be taking both Greek and Hebrew at the Catholic school I am attending.

By the way I don't mind changing the cross to something more generic how do I do it?

Tom

[ReadingForOrders]

Ok I couldn't figure out how to change it, but I did find a way to remove it.

Tom

[Anglian]

Dear Tom,

Welcome here. Do tell us something about your Church. My own Church, the British Orthodox Church, which is under the jurisdiction of Alexandria, was founded in the 1860s by a bishop ordained by the Syriac Church, but lost touch with its roots, being brought back into the Oriental Orthodox family by its current Metropolitan, Abba Seraphim, in the 1990s - so I hope that might be a good precedent for your Church.

Do look in on us at http://www.britishorthodox.org/index.php

I pray for you and your Church that you might again be one with our family.

In Christ,

Anglian

[ReadingForOrders]

Anglian thank you for sharing with me. Indeed your experience is heartening. Tomorrow I will share more. I would like to post something from our website but will need to get the Bishops permission first. This should only take a day or so.

Tom

[Anglian]

Dear Tom.

I look forward to hearing more about your Church.

We found, and continue to find, the Copts so wonderfully loving and receptive to us as British Orthodox Christians. Unlike some Orthodox there was no fuss about language or culture, that great and good man Pope Shenouda saw at once that what mattered was whether we were Orthodox, and that that was all that mattered. Satisfied with that, we came under his jurisdiction, our Metropolitan became a member of the Holy Synod and we continue to grow in the Spirit.

May it be an omen for you.

In peace,

Anglian

[ReadingForOrders]

Hi all I haven't forgotten you all I will be making a post later tonight.

Tom

[Lbet123]

Welcome!

[ReadingForOrders]

Lord Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner.

http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCNOCCN/

[copticorthodoxy]

Lord Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner.

http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCNOCCN/

I don't understand if your church want to became Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox !!
you said that your church want to join the Oriental Orthodox but in your site it says


" Our Faith and Belief follows the Rudder and the Canons and teachings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils "


The Oriental Orthodox church believes in the first Three Ecumenical councils only

[Anglian]

Dear`Tom,

Thank you for sharing your website and the information about your Church with us; I read it with great interest.

In many ways your Church seems in not a dissimilar place to my own before the 1990s.

Although there were those who dismissed it as another vagante group claiming Orthodox roots, the Orthodox Church of the British Isles (as it then was) had (as Pope Shenouda III was to acknowledge) a sound Orthodox connection to the Syriac Orthodox Church; but that link had become faint. We acted as a group around which those interested in a British Orthodoxy could cohere. There were those who dissented from Mar Seraphim's (as he then was) decision to open talks with the Coptic Church and who decided not to join us in our decision to come under the jurisdiction of Alexandria. Time has shown how wise Abba Seraphim's decision was.

To be Orthodox is certainly to follow an Orthodox theology and Christology under one's own bishop; but we have found great joy and great spiritual growth in a direct connection with one of the great Orthodox families; we are all God's children, of course, but is nice to be in close contact with one's brothers and sisters.

Your own Church has a number of connections, which suggests it could, if it wanted, go in a number of directions. Of course it may simply wish to stay where it is, but your opening post suggested that was not the desire of your Metropolitan. That being so, I do think it significant that he has chosen to contact the Oriental Orthodox family. In my experience the Eastern Orthodox are much more taken up with questions of ethnicity and have a real problem with the notion of an American Orthodoxy.

Your Church would be well placed to transcend that problem, and I hope, and pray, that the talks will prosper and bring your Church back, via its Ethiopian roots, to the great Oriental Orthodox family.

Do, please, tell us more about your Church and its activities; even from this distance I can see, from your website, similarities with the BOC, and it would be wonderful to have an American Church with which we could be in full communion.

My prayers are with you and your Church.

In peace,

Anglian

p.s. Tom, if you would care to sign up, via our website for our Forum, I know there are many there who would be interested in talking to you about Oriental Orthodoxy in an English and American setting.

[ReadingForOrders]

I don't understand if your church want to became Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox !!
you said that your church want to join the Oriental Orthodox but in your site it says



The Oriental Orthodox church believes in the first Three Ecumenical councils only
Indeed my friend there are clearly issues both internal and external that we are dealing with. This is one of the reasons that my introduction confirmed that we are not in communion with any of the Patriarchs at this point. We have, as a body, historically confirmed 7 Ecumenical Councils. We currently are in discussion about this. We definitely have decisions to make as a body and are simply at the introduction stage. I would appreciate your prayers that we (clergy, seminarians and laity) may discuss and listen to the leading of the Spirit.


Tom

[ReadingForOrders]

Dear`Tom,

Thank you for sharing your website and the information about your Church with us; I read it with great interest.

In many ways your Church seems in not a dissimilar place to my own before the 1990s.

Although there were those who dismissed it as another vagante group claiming Orthodox roots, the Orthodox Church of the British Isles (as it then was) had (as Pope Shenouda III was to acknowledge) a sound Orthodox connection to the Syriac Orthodox Church; but that link had become faint. We acted as a group around which those interested in a British Orthodoxy could cohere. There were those who dissented from Mar Seraphim's (as he then was) decision to open talks with the Coptic Church and who decided not to join us in our decision to come under the jurisdiction of Alexandria. Time has shown how wise Abba Seraphim's decision was.

To be Orthodox is certainly to follow an Orthodox theology and Christology under one's own bishop; but we have found great joy and great spiritual growth in a direct connection with one of the great Orthodox families; we are all God's children, of course, but is nice to be in close contact with one's brothers and sisters.

Your own Church has a number of connections, which suggests it could, if it wanted, go in a number of directions. Of course it may simply wish to stay where it is, but your opening post suggested that was not the desire of your Metropolitan. That being so, I do think it significant that he has chosen to contact the Oriental Orthodox family. In my experience the Eastern Orthodox are much more taken up with questions of ethnicity and have a real problem with the notion of an American Orthodoxy.

Your Church would be well placed to transcend that problem, and I hope, and pray, that the talks will prosper and bring your Church back, via its Ethiopian roots, to the great Oriental Orthodox family.

Do, please, tell us more about your Church and its activities; even from this distance I can see, from your website, similarities with the BOC, and it would be wonderful to have an American Church with which we could be in full communion.

My prayers are with you and your Church.

In peace,

Anglian

p.s. Tom, if you would care to sign up, via our website for our Forum, I know there are many there who would be interested in talking to you about Oriental Orthodoxy in an English and American setting.
Anglian;
We appreciate your prayers and indeed there are more than a few directions that are possible at this point. Please join me in the prayer that we will listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Can you send me a link?

Tom

[davidlazarus]

Blessings Tom,

I have only just begun posting here and am greatly interested in your Church and its history, structure and teachings.

Please forgive me if I am in error, but on what I believe to be your Church website I found a reference to a Rev. Mtr. Marlyn Worley, acknowledging this person as a priest.

As I said, forgive me if I am wrong as I mean no disrespect, but I am under the impression "Marlyn" is a woman's name.

The reason I am asking is I have had much contact with many Churches that support the ordination of women although this practice is clearly prohibited in both scripture and apostolic tradition.


In relation to this, could you please share what your Church's stand is on this issue.


Peace and Love to you

David.

[ReadingForOrders]

Blessings Tom,

I have only just begun posting here and am greatly interested in your Church and its history, structure and teachings.

Please forgive me if I am in error, but on what I believe to be your Church website I found a reference to a Rev. Mtr. Marlyn Worley, acknowledging this person as a priest.

As I said, forgive me if I am wrong as I mean no disrespect, but I am under the impression "Marlyn" is a woman's name.

The reason I am asking is I have had much contact with many Churches that support the ordination of women although this practice is clearly prohibited in both scripture and apostolic tradition.


In relation to this, could you please share what your Church's stand is on this issue.


Peace and Love to you

David.
Hi Davidlazarus; Absolutely a great question. Marilyn is indeed a woman. She is married to the man who consecrated our archbishop. She was ordained by her husband after the Archbishop was consecrated (I believe) The Bishop who was the principle consecrator of Archbishop Pultorak is honored but is considered "retired". We do not currently ordain women to the presbytery or consecrate them to the episcopate, we do currently ordain women to the diaconate but like everything this is also currently being discussed. My personal belief is that there were female Deacons and am not bothered by the fact that we have deaconesses but like everything I pray that my opinion doesn't deafen me to the voice of the Holy Spirit. There has been change and growth in our little group and it seems that the more we return to our Orthodox roots the more blessed we are. Please pray that we continue to listen to the Holy Spirit.

Welcome to CF!

Tom

[davidlazarus]

Blessings Tom,

It is good to hear your Church is no longer continuing to ordain women priestesses as the pagan religions did for their deities.

May I ask if you know if Mrs Worley has renounced this false claim or does she still maintain her position?

Another question I would like to ask is from what apostolic line of ascension does your Church claim to have received its anointing?

Please do not take offense to this but there is at this time a growing number of gatherings claiming to be apostolic, many of which claim to hold apostolic authority, particularly from the apostle St, Thomas.

As examples, The "Spiritis Church" and the "Fellowship of Christ International" both make the same claim and both ordain women. What is of note however is when their line of ascension is examined, a number of Nestorians are listed and even these claims of anointing are dubious to say the least.

I am not suggesting your Church falls into their category as I know nothing at this time of your claim of ascension, so I do ask you not to take my words as an accusation, as they are not intended to be.

My purpose in asking is simply to clarify this point as your Church website does not offer any names, only the statement that you have received such authority.

Recently I was in a similar situation, I had been posting on another forum calling itself "Ourchurch.com" where a member of the "fellowship of Christ International", specifically a woman Bishop, also posted.

When I questioned her on the Nestorians in their list of apostolic ascension of authority and could they support their claims, I was threatened by the administration of the forum to remain silent, with the threat of being banned should I mention it again.

After a short time, another challenged her on her claiming the title of Bishop and again the issue of their apostolic authority arose. When I posted the evidence proving her claims to be false, I was banned and the posts removed. In this case the individual in question was a paying customer of many of the services provided by "Ourchurch.com".

I mention this simply to illustrate the need for clarification on such claims, not to suggest any deceit on your part. However as I'm sure you can appreciate, any can make such claims, but not always are they based in truth.

Peace and Love to you

David Lazarus

[ReadingForOrders]

Blessings Tom,

And to you Davidlazarus! I must apologize for my delay in responding I wanted to confirm the accuracy of my answers

It is good to hear your Church is no longer continuing to ordain women priestesses as the pagan religions did for their deities.

May I ask if you know if Mrs Worley has renounced this false claim or does she still maintain her position?I do not know exactly what her stance is at the moment; neither she nor her husband technically are involved with us at all. Like I said they are listed to honor Bishop Worly but they have no official function in the Church. They do not participate in any way.


Another question I would like to ask is from what apostolic line of ascension does your Church claim to have received its anointing?From our website:

PRIMARY SUCCESSION - THE ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH
The primary Succession of this Church stems from the Orthodox Church of Ethiopia and its first Patriarch ... Abuna Basilios. In 1959 Abuna Basilios Consecrated to the Episcopacy at Holy Trinity Cathedral in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, Abuna Gabre Kristos Mikael; assisted by Abuna Markos, Patriarch of Gojjam, and Bishop Petros, Metropolitan of Gondar.
In 1972, at St. Leonard's Cathedral in brooklyn, New York, Abuna Gabre Kristos Mikael, assisted by Archbishops Francis Ryan and James Edward Burns, Consecrated to the Episcopacy, Abuna Gabre Medhin Kristos Jeremiah, (David W. Worley).
In 2004 Abuna Jeremiah, assisted by Bishop Michael Frost, Consecrated to the Episcopacy the current Metropolitan Primate of The American Orthodox Catholic Church/American Orthodox Church, +Samuel, (Mark A. Pultorak)






This link (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Church_of_Ethiopia) provides a brief history of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church from which our succession originates. The first Patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Abuna Basilios is the same Abuna Basilios mentioned above.








Please do not take offense to this but there is at this time a growing number of gatherings claiming to be apostolic, many of which claim to hold apostolic authority, particularly from the apostle St, Thomas.No offense taken my friend. As you can see we are not "Thomasites" although I am familiar with some of these groups as we have a "Thomasite" Bishop in the city in which I live.

As examples, The "Spiritis Church" and the "Fellowship of Christ International" both make the same claim and both ordain women. What is of note however is when their line of ascension is examined, a number of Nestorians are listed and even these claims of anointing are dubious to say the least.

I am not suggesting your Church falls into their category as I know nothing at this time of your claim of ascension, so I do ask you not to take my words as an accusation, as they are not intended to be.I am not aware of a Nestorian influence in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. However although a student I am not a scholar and perhaps there is such an influence. I know that the Ethiopians are not now Nestorian nor are we.


My purpose in asking is simply to clarify this point as your Church website does not offer any names, only the statement that you have received such authority. Actually our Website only provides information showing our connections to the Ethiopian and the Russian Orthodox Churches did you go to the link I provided?

As for what actually happened in the 60's we are not really sure. We have been involved in communication trying to determine how our body and the Ethiopian Church lost contact with each other and so far all we have learned is that neither we nor the Ethiopians really know, at least not yet. It's been a puzzler.

Recently I was in a similar situation, I had been posting on another forum calling itself "Ourchurch.com" where a member of the "fellowship of Christ International", specifically a woman Bishop, also posted. Ourchurch.com has a number of different Church bodies which post websites on them do you remember which one particularly?

When I questioned her on the Nestorians in their list of apostolic ascension of authority and could they support their claims, I was threatened by the administration of the forum to remain silent, with the threat of being banned should I mention it again.This is not a very Christian response on their part. Considering how you have asked your questions here I see no reason to believe you were any less polite and respectful there.

After a short time, another challenged her on her claiming the title of Bishop and again the issue of their apostolic authority arose. When I posted the evidence proving her claims to be false, I was banned and the posts removed. In this case the individual in question was a paying customer of many of the services provided by "Ourchurch.com".Unfortunately that doesn't surprise me.

I mention this simply to illustrate the need for clarification on such claims, not to suggest any deceit on your part. However as I'm sure you can appreciate, any can make such claims, but not always are they based in truth.Indeed people can claim many things. This is one of the reasons my first post was worded as it was.

Peace and Love to you

David LazarusAnd to you my friend. Thank you for the challenging questions and for sharing your experiences.

I would like a link to the ourchurch that you were banned from. I assure you I have no intention posting there but would like to take a look. I know a lot of Old Catholics and Thomasites that do endorse female clergy beyond the Diaconate.

Tom

[davidlazarus]

Blessings to you Tom,

no need for apologies. All any can do is reply as time and circumstance permits.

In relation to Mrs. Worley and the issue of women’s ordination, this is unfortunately an issue that has been greatly influenced by the world’s present stance on women’s equality and rights, which may I say is a good thing, when it remains purely in the things of the world.
However, when such a stance influences believers to sway from the Word of God to follow cultural viewpoints then division and corruption is inevitable.

At this time, all we can do is pray the Lord guides those in authority within your Church to swiftly resolve the issue and make a stand one way or the other. Until then, perhaps they should consider amending their website to clarify the point, but this is something they must decide for themselves. What is unfortunate is that at present, the website does indicate a strong protestant and cultural influence away from orthodoxy.

Thanks for the info on your succession, what would be of interest is what the Ethiopian stand is on your Church and whether the Coptic Church supported these consecrations. One possible problem could be the ordination of Mrs. Worley by her husband because it is unlikely the Ethiopians would ever support such action. Perhaps this was part of the reason for any separation between the two, but I am stating this only as a possibility.

You said,

”No offense taken my friend. As you can see we are not "Thomasites" although I am familiar with some of these groups as we have a "Thomasite" Bishop in the city in which I live.”

Thanks for taking my words in the spirit in which they were intended, being a genuine inquiry, not an accusation.

you said,

“I am not aware of a Nestorian influence in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. However although a student I am not a scholar and perhaps there is such an influence. I know that the Ethiopians are not now Nestorian nor are we.”

I also am not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination, that being said, I also have never found anything to suggest the Ethiopians are in any way Nestorian.

Sorry, I haven’t been to the link you provided, my computers old and I can’t connect through links, I keep getting an “error on page” message. Just as I’m no scholar, I’m no computer Wiz either but I hope to get it sorted soon.

You said,

“As for what actually happened in the 60's we are not really sure. We have been involved in communication trying to determine how our body and the EthiopianChurch lost contact with each other and so far all we have learned is that neither we nor the Ethiopians really know, at least not yet. It's been a puzzler.”

Again, perhaps the Ethiopians might be the ones to ask concerning this. I would imagine they might have records of what may have happened.

you said,

“Ourchurch.com has a number of different Church bodies which post websites on them do you remember which one particularly?”

Ourchurch.com does have just about every denomination post there from time to time, ranging from little cults to the larger corporate bodies, all preaching different interpretations of the scriptures.

The particular cult I was referring to was “fellowship of Christ International”, represented at Ourchurch.com by a women calling herself the username “Ferryman”. real name Trudy Veerman. In relation to her real name, I have only posted that here as she openly does so herself, making it quite public as she promotes her supposed Christian counseling service on each of her posts.

Some of her false teachings are the rejection of the sacrament of Baptism as having any part in salvation, only a public declaration. Ordination of women, herself claiming she is a bishop. The denial Christ was crucified on a Friday. Pre-tribulation rapture and many others.

However, the main issue in her case was not so much her false doctrines, as this is common amongst those who post at Ourchurch.com, including the management, the issue was her claiming that her cult was founded upon the apostle Thomas and holds an unbroken line of apostolic succession from him, which of cause cannot be substantiated and the list they offer includes Nestorians. Thus, even if the list was true, they descended from excommunicated heretics and hold no authority in Christ.

You’re right in saying Ourchurch.com’s threats were not very Christian, but from their perspective, I was attacking one of their customers. Also, by often posting the faith as it was first preached in the early Church, I undermined the structure of many of their beliefs so I was not always the most popular person there.

You said,

“Indeed people can claim many things. This is one of the reasons my first post was worded as it was.”

And worded very well I might add.

You said,

“And to you my friend. Thank you for the challenging questions and for sharing your experiences.”

Thank you also, it is refreshing to discuss such things openly and with Christian love and with truth as the primary goal.

You said,

“I would like a link to the ourchurch that you were banned from. I assure you I have no intention posting there but would like to take a look. I know a lot of Old Catholics and Thomasites that do endorse female clergy beyond the Diaconate.”

I have no problem if you should post there, although you should expect some very different interpretations to scripture to what is considered Orthodox. I can’t post links here yet, but if you are interested, it’s Ourchurch.com

Peace and Love to you always

David Lazarus

[Anglian]

Dear David, dear Tom,

I have been away from the Forum this week, and it is edifying and wonderful to come back and find this example of Christian love and guidance at work here.

If Tom will go to the British Orthodox Church website at this link
http://www.britishorthodox.org/fellowship.php
and then click on join on line, he'll find the way to come to our British orthodox forum; I don't know if you, David, would also be interested, but we are always happy to have new people with us.

The BOC Fellowship is for those who are either Oriental Orthodox or are interested in knowing more about us; it is an eirenic and prayerful forum where we try to share our experiences on the journey to theosis.

Peace be with you both,

Anglian

[davidlazarus]

Blessings Anglian,

Thank you for your kind words, perhaps it is just the excellent example set down here by people such as yourself that have set a high standard of Christian love, fellowship and dialogue, and of cause by the aid of the Lord to guide us in how He would have us interact with one another.

As for the British Orthodox Church website, I am very interested and will be sure to go there and have a look.

Lately I have just begun doing a little study on the Coptic influence in the British isles, in particular, Ireland and found much Coptic influence from the early monks that went there prior to Rome establishing their rule through Augustine of Canterbury and Patrick, evidenced by such things as the celtic cross being almost identical to the Coptic cross and the surprising number of coptic names of places in Ireland dating back to the early years.

Thanks for the site address, if the Lord is willing, I'll be speaking to you there as well.

Peace and love to you

David

[Anglian]

Dear David,

Thank you for your kind words; it is so good to see the Christian spirit here.

If you go to the BOC site and look up past issues of the Glastonbury Review (our magazine) you'll find an article about the Coptic connection and Ireland. There is indeed a long an honourable connection.

Peace and blessings in Christ,

Anglian

[zhilan]

Dear Tom.

I look forward to hearing more about your Church.

We found, and continue to find, the Copts so wonderfully loving and receptive to us as British Orthodox Christians. Unlike some Orthodox there was no fuss about language or culture, that great and good man Pope Shenouda saw at once that what mattered was whether we were Orthodox, and that that was all that mattered. Satisfied with that, we came under his jurisdiction, our Metropolitan became a member of the Holy Synod and we continue to grow in the Spirit.

May it be an omen for you.

In peace,

Anglian

That's so cool. I was reading about Pope Shenouda when he was visiting America several weeks back and he is truly an amazing man. I suspect he may be a living Saint.

[Anglian]

Dear Zhilan,

Thank you for your kind words about His Holiness. He is indeed one of the great Christian leaders of our (and any other) time. He is coming to the UK in two weeks time, and the excitement is already evident in the Coptic community.

In Christ,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Good morning brothers and sisters ...

I am Metropolitan +Samuel of The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... and yes indeed, Tom is one of the Seminarians of this Jurisdiction. What he speaks is absloutely the truth. We are working to become recognized by one of the Oriental Orthodox patriarchs. I pray this may occur this summer, as a friend of this Jurisdiction who is a Priest with the Orthodox Church of India will be speaking to his Council on interchurch relations about recognition.

Knowing what you all know about The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... this question comes to mind. Would the Patriarch of Alexandria, HH Shenouda, recognize such a Jurisdiction as the AOCC? I do not ask anyone speak for him, but it is just a general question.

In God's Peace ...

Metropolitan +Samuel

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Dear Anglian ...

I read your post wherein you mentioned comuunion with an american church. The American Orthodox Catholic Church would welcome such a communion. Also ... I have contacted HH Pope Shenouda. I pray he responds to me.

Metropolitan +Samuel

[ReadingForOrders]

Dear David, dear Tom,

I have been away from the Forum this week, and it is edifying and wonderful to come back and find this example of Christian love and guidance at work here.

It is good to see you back my friend and indeed I have enjoyed the discussion here.

If Tom will go to the British Orthodox Church website at this link
http://www.britishorthodox.org/fellowship.php
and then click on join on line, he'll find the way to come to our British orthodox forum; I don't know if you, David, would also be interested, but we are always happy to have new people with us.

I have done so. It is a very interesting site.

The BOC Fellowship is for those who are either Oriental Orthodox or are interested in knowing more about us; it is an eirenic and prayerful forum where we try to share our experiences on the journey to theosis.

It is always good to have a traveling companion isn't it?

Peace be with you both,

Anglian[/quote]

And with you as well my friend!


Tom

[ReadingForOrders]

Good morning brothers and sisters ...

I am Metropolitan +Samuel of The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... and yes indeed, Tom is one of the Seminarians of this Jurisdiction. What he speaks is absloutely the truth. We are working to become recognized by one of the Oriental Orthodox patriarchs. I pray this may occur this summer, as a friend of this Jurisdiction who is a Priest with the Orthodox Church of India will be speaking to his Council on interchurch relations about recognition.

Knowing what you all know about The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... this question comes to mind. Would the Patriarch of Alexandria, HH Shenouda, recognize such a Jurisdiction as the AOCC? I do not ask anyone speak for him, but it is just a general question.

In God's Peace ...

Metropolitan +Samuel
How wonderful to log on and find your post today your Grace!
As you can see by this thread I have received a wonderful reception here.
Obviously at this point any other questions about our little body should be addressed to you. I hope that my answers so far have been accurate and truthful.

Again Welcome!

Tom

[Anglian]

Your Grace, Dear Tom,

What a pleasure to have you both here.

Obviously only Pope Shenouda can answer your Grace's most important question; but we in the British Orthodox Church can bear witness to his wise handling of such enquiries.

Our own Metropolitan, Abba Seraphim, has much experience that may prove useful at some point. I do hope - and pray - that your own talks will have a good outcome. The joy of being in communion with the rest of the Oriental Orthodox family needs to be felt to be appreciated.

We are honoured to have your Grace with us here.

In peace,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

My brother in Christ Anglian and Dear Tom ...

The welcome I have felt from all of you has honored me. I never felt this with the eastern churches. I am happy to fellowship with you and hopefully we can learn and grow together.

Yes Tom ... you have been accurate and truthful. I thank you for opening the door to this dialogue.

May God bless you all.

[copticorthodoxy]

Good morning brothers and sisters ...

I am Metropolitan +Samuel of The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... and yes indeed, Tom is one of the Seminarians of this Jurisdiction. What he speaks is absloutely the truth. We are working to become recognized by one of the Oriental Orthodox patriarchs. I pray this may occur this summer, as a friend of this Jurisdiction who is a Priest with the Orthodox Church of India will be speaking to his Council on interchurch relations about recognition.

Knowing what you all know about The American Orthodox Catholic Church ... this question comes to mind. Would the Patriarch of Alexandria, HH Shenouda, recognize such a Jurisdiction as the AOCC? I do not ask anyone speak for him, but it is just a general question.

In God's Peace ...

Metropolitan +Samuel

Welcome in the Orthodox forum

you are Metropolitan so you were a monk ?? is there monasteries in your church ?

[Anglian]

Your Grace,

Thank you for your kind words. The British Orthodox have found in their dealings with the Copts nothing but the most Christian spirit of love and understanding.

As you will see from our website, our apostolic descent was through a French bishop, Jules Ferrette who was consecrated in the Syrian (as it then was) Orthodox Church. But over the years the connection between us and the Syrian Church was lost, although we never forgot it.

So often, in discussions with some Orthodox Churches questions of ethnicity and language seem to predominate; not with the Copts. Immensely (and rightly) proud of their ancient lineage and language, they have shown us true Christian love. What His Holiness Pope Shenouda III wanted to know was were we Orthodox in our theology and Christology? Once he was satisfied on these things, then the rest was plain sailing.

He is quite happy not only for us to use our own language, but also for us to use the ancient Liturgy of St. James - which is a tribute to our Syriac origins. We use an English translation of the Coptic Agbeya and all our services are in English. His Holiness recognises, as did his apostolic predecessors, that evangelisation has to take place in the language of the people.

Thus we have our own beloved Metropolitan, Abba Seraphim, as a member of the Holy Synod, and excellent relations with the Copts in Egypt and the UK.

One of the things I have noticed is the difference between a Church which has been on the receiving end of persecution for a millennium and a half, and those Churches which have had an imperial past; identification with the Suffering Servant has produced a spirit of love and understanding.

My prayers and with you and your Church,

In peace,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Anglian and all ...

I spoke to the Holy Synod of The American orthodox Catholic Church to clarify our stance as a Jurisdiction. While we understand and accept the fact that the every truth and teaching necessary to the true Orthodox Christian faith is found in the first three councils of the Church, we also accept the "Rehashings" of those same truths in the remaining councils. We also accept the fact that the last 4 councils were not truly ecumenical. Again ... it is the teachings that are important to us. I believe our Orthodoxy is far closer to that of the Oriental Churches.

For the sale of our posterity however, because the roots of The American Orthodox Catholic Church come from the Church of Russia, (the Ethiopian lineage was transmitted to me and the current manifestation of the AOCC by Archbishop Worley), we hold to eastern Orthodoxy. I am sure there are some of you who are familiar with Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh, the one who began The American Orthodox Catholic Church. We are his spiritual sons.

That having been said however, we wish to make the AOCC a place of welcome for all those of the Orthodox Christian faith, whether they be eastern or oriental. That was the wish of our beloved Archbishop Walter Myron Propheta of Blessed memory.

We do not seek brotherhood and friendship with the eastern Jurisdictions because of their belief they are the only true bastions of orthodoxy. We seek this brotherhood with all of you in the Oriental Churches. rest assured you all will find welcome with the American Orthodox Catholic Church.

Let us strive to recognize one another and the validity of our lineages and ministries.

Metropolitan +Samuel

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Dear Copticorthodoxy ...

In response to your question ... I am not a Monk. Actually, I am a former Roman Catholic and convert to orthodoxy. I wish I had the time to become a Monk. I hold down full time secular employment, and have other responsibilities that are sometimes very time consumming. I am celibate, however.

We are currently in the process of rebuilding the monastic presence that was once in The American Orthodox Catholic Church. We have a few Nuns at present, and are in the process of bringing in over 100 Monks and Nuns.

[WarriorAngel]

Putting Pope Shenouda into my prayers so he is fully able to discern everything. :crossrc:

I hope this is good news.

God Bless.

[Anglian]

Dear Warrior Angel,

Many thanks for your typically kind and thoughtful post; what a good example you are to all of us here and on the OBOB board (by the way, love your new 'character' and hope you are getting warmer now!).

Dear Metropolitan Samuel,

We do, indeed, all come to Orthodoxy in the way He guides and leads us.

Our view of the later Church Councils is that on the whole we don't have a problem with them (on the whole) but that since we weren't invited, they are not 'ecumenical' in the sense as accepted by the whole Church. Of course, those who would wish to exclude us from the Church because we failed to accept some of the distinctly dubious language of Chalcedon, will regard that as of no account, which is their privilege, so to say.

We take a more eirenic view, and are glad that at II Constantinople the Chalcedonians clarified some of the dubious language and decisions of Chalcedon. We remain in talks about mutual recognition, and it would be good to see the Orthodox family reunited. But history, time and circumstance have put many obstacles in the way of that, and we shall, no doubt, have to await the same processes before we can do the will of Him who commanded us to be one in love.

In peace,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Anglian ...

Sounds to me like we are indeed on the same page. If you and others would be interested, I have 13 principles of Orthodoxy as put forth by our founding Holy Father Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh, (who actually was once a Cleric in the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and came to America to minister with Archbishop Raphael Hawaweeny in the American Syrian Mission).

Also ... The American Orthodox Catholic Church, in the 1960's and early 1970's included Oriental Orthodoxy ... via The Ethiopian Orthodox Coptic Church of North and South America shepherded by Metropolitan Gabre Mikael. It was Gabre Mikael who was primary consecrator for my primary consecrator, Archbishop David Worley, known when he was with the EOCC as Abuna Jeremiah.

[zhilan]

Dear Zhilan,

Thank you for your kind words about His Holiness. He is indeed one of the great Christian leaders of our (and any other) time. He is coming to the UK in two weeks time, and the excitement is already evident in the Coptic community.

In Christ,

Anglian
One thing that really blew me away was how he has expanded the Coptic Church under his leadership. I remember reading some amazing figures about how, for example, when he became pope there were very few Coptic Churches outsides of Egypt and now you can find them everywhere.

[Anglian]

Your Grace,

It does indeed sound as though we are on the same page. If you were happy to share with us your 13 principles that would be of great interest.

In Christ,

Anglian

Anglian ...

Sounds to me like we are indeed on the same page. If you and others would be interested, I have 13 principles of Orthodoxy as put forth by our founding Holy Father Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh, (who actually was once a Cleric in the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and came to America to minister with Archbishop Raphael Hawaweeny in the American Syrian Mission).

Also ... The American Orthodox Catholic Church, in the 1960's and early 1970's included Oriental Orthodoxy ... via The Ethiopian Orthodox Coptic Church of North and South America shepherded by Metropolitan Gabre Mikael. It was Gabre Mikael who was primary consecrator for my primary consecrator, Archbishop David Worley, known when he was with the EOCC as Abuna Jeremiah.

[lionroar0]

This thread has been very uplifting personally.

Your grace welcome to CF. I hope that you will be a continual presence here.

Peace

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Dear Anglian and all ...

Here is the beginning of the 13 Principles of Orthodoxy I spoke of, according to the AOCC Holy Father Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh ...

THE CHURCH

The Church of Christ is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic in institution, a Divinely created and governed living organism existing visibly and invisibly in this world and through all ages ...

Of whom the head is our Lord Christ Himself and the guide is the Holy Spirit infallibly directing into all truth and preserving from all error, in Sacramental union with which there is salvation and life, and separation from which is separation from the visible Body of Christ.

FAITH AND DISCIPLINE

The Faith and Doctrine of the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church are infallibly true, and are derived from or witnessed by the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition as sources of equal weight, and are formulated, accepted and determined by infallibly inspired, directed, and governed life and consciousness of the Church.

[Anglian]

Your Grace,

We are edified by your kindness and your words:amen:

Although we often, and not unnaturally, tend to bemoan the Godlessness of this age, and some of the products of the Internet, it is good to be reminded of its potential for helping to bring the scattered flock to the Good Shepherd, and that God's will moves all things.

In peace,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

PRICIPLES OF ORTHODOXY PART TWO

ECUMENICAL COUNCILS

The general Church Councils, properly and lawfully convened, representing the whole Church, are canonical and rightful organs of the mind and voice of the Church.

The dogmatix decisions and definitions of such Councils, when found by experience in the life and consciousness of the Church to be comformable to and consonant with Her Spirit and partake of Her truth in the Holy Spirit become, by virtue of their acceptance and subsequent ratification, binding and obligatory on every member of the Church and truly Ecumenical in their character, force, and authority.

THE CREED

The Symbol of Faith of the Three Hundred Eighteen Holy Fathers of Nicaea, as ratified by the Council of Constantinople, must be accepted without any ambiguity, evasions, or evasive interpretation by every member of the Christian Church.

By the use of the irregularly interpolated Filioque Clause in this Symbol of Faith, no derivation from the True Orthodox Doctrine as to the procession of the Holy Spirit is taught or intended, but that the sole meaning taught or intended to be taught is the safeguarding of the equality and unity of the Persons, (Hypostases), of the Holy Trinity in the Godhead.

NB ... To avoid any confusion, Archbishop Ofiesh was not in any way saying the Filioque Clause in the Creed was proper.

[Anglian]

Your Grace,

Again, we are grateful to you for this further exposition of Orthodoxy.

The forumulation over the filioque clause is reassuring.

In peace,

Anglian

[MetropolitanSamuel]

Please pardon my absence for the last few days. I needed to plan an Episcopal Consecration. I will begin posting again here tomorrow. I have, however, posted a few thoughts in the forum for The British Orthodox Church on the history, mission, ministry and motivation for the work of The American Orthodox-Catholic Church.