Political icon for Christian Democrats?

[Suomipoika]

Hey,

Does it sound like a reasonable idea to think about getting a new political party icon here.. for the Christian Democratic party folks?


Christian Democracy is a widespread political ideology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy


There are LOTS of Christian Democratic parties around the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christian_emocratic_parties


Also, in the USA: http://www.cdusa.org/


I'm personally involeved with the Christian Democratic Youth in Finland, and I believe there are many many posters on this forum who associate themselves with the CD.


Think about this suggestion!

Blessings,

Suomipoika :wave:

[PaladinGirl]

Is the Christian Democratic Party not a United States political party because I have never heard of it. :confused: I have only heard of the Democratic Party here in the United States.

[Suomipoika]

Hi PaladinGirl,

As far as I've understood, the Christian Democratic Union is not an actual party in the United States, at least not yet. But it seems to be expressed rather vaguely here: http://www.cdusa.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page, so I find it hard make up my mind of whether the Christian Democrats are a real party in the U.S. or not. You can read about the CD union in the U.S. and find out more if you're interested. Anyway, I'd say that the Christian Democrats would fall somewhere between Democrats and Republicans in the U.S., and with some insight into the U.S. religion/politics scene, I would dare to claim that many of their positions would be ones that a large portion of the Catholics in the U.S. might find really familiar.

Christian Democrats are a real party in many countries world-wide, at least:

Albania, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Canada, Cuba (although the communists don't actually allow them to campaign), Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Fiji, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Haiti, Honduras, Ireland, Italy, Luxemburg, Mexico, Moldova, Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and now also the United States (in case it is an actual party and not just a 'movement', that is). And there are more of them.

The reason I'd like to have a Christian Democratic political icon available here is that this is an international Christian forum and I believe that many, many Christians who come from around the world to post on this forum associate themselves politically with Christian Democracy.

I don't personally find it that crucial to have that symbol up in my profile, but I would probably use it if it was available.

Here you'll find some info and basic principles of the Christian Democratic party in Finland:

http://www.kd.fi/KD/www/en/

I've been personally involved with the youth organization of Finnish Christian Democrats.

[faith guardian]

Oh, this is a great idea! I am a member of Norway's Christian Democratic party, the KRF.
The movement is indeed highly international, and I would love to see CF making the icon available.

[KarateCowboy]

Not a Christian Democrat here, but I say go for it.

[Suomipoika]

Thank ye for supporting the idea - appreciated! Onko perunat jo kaivettu perunamaasta?:wave:

[KarateCowboy]

What? Do fries come from potatoes? :scratch:

[Loukuss]

I think its a good idea. Lets do it up!

[faith guardian]

What? Do fries come from potatoes? :scratch:
Nah. They're french people. That's why they're called french fries.
Now you know.


Want some soylent green with those fries?

[Nadiine]

Living in the USA and being political, I don't know what a "Christian democrat" is...?

At least here, democrat almost symbolizes being liberal anymore.

[faith guardian]

That's interesting Nadiine.
To introduce you to the concept, I recommend reading up about it on Wikipedia. I have put some excerpts in here:

Synopsis:
Christian Democracy is a political ideology and movement that began in large measure as a response to the anti-Christian and anti-cultural nature of the French Revolution and Marxism on the one hand, and the anti-worker and anti-social nature of Social Darwinism and laissez-faire capitalism on the other.
-znip-
Broadly speaking, Christian Democracy as an ideology is a form of communitarianism, a political philosophy focusing on the health of the community in all areas of community existence. This community orientation is often considered conservative (or right-leaning) in regard to moral and cultural issues and progressive (or left-leaning) in regard to social justice, labor and socio-economic issues. (See the political spectrum chart to the right.) More specifically, Christian Democratic parties generally claims a strong social conscience, in the sense of great respect for the dignity of the human person from conception to natural death (that is, a pro-life stance), emphasizing the alleviation of poverty, and maintenance of a basic level of societal protection (and a limited welfare state if necessary) keeping the weak from abandonment and destitution, and the incentivising of (and if necessary the restraint of) market forces for the common good (see social market economy). It may also be seen as liberal as it upholds human rights and individual initiative (read personal responsibility). It may be seen as federalistic and traditional in that it emphasizes sphere sovereignty and subsidiarity, and maintaining local and regional cultural distinctives, as well as upholding universal traditions (for example, traditional marriage). It may be seen as green in that it advocates positive stewardship of the creation, especially through using renewable energy, and avoiding activities that destroy the environment.


On the compass:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/CD-spectrum.png/360px-CD-spectrum.png

Viewpoints:
a "typical" Christian Democratic viewpoint might be described as follows:
In common with liberalism, an emphasis on human rights and individual initiative.
In contrast to liberalism, a rejection of laicity, and an emphasis on the fact that the individual is part of a community and has duties towards it.
In common with conservatism, conservative moral values (that is, on issues such as marriage, divorce, abortion etc.), a view of the evolutionary development of society, an emphasis on law and order, and a rejection of communism.
In contrast to conservatism, open to change (for example, in the structure of society) and not necessarily supportive of the social status quo.
In common with socialism, a strong emphasis on social solidarity (that is, the welfare state, prioritizing alleviation of poverty, higher taxes on the wealthy, etc.) and a willingness to restrain market forces.
In contrast to socialism, supports capitalism and a market economy and does not advocate class struggle.

History:
Christian Democracy as a political movement was born at the end of the 19th century, largely as a result of the papal encyclical Rerum Novarum of Pope Leo XIII, in which the Vatican recognized workers' misery and agreed that something should be done about it, in reaction to the rise of the socialist and trade union movements. -znip-

Following World War II, Christian Democracy was seen as a neutral and unifying voice of compassionate conservatism, and distinguished itself from the far right. It gave a voice to 'conservatives of the heart', particularly in Germany, who had detested Adolf Hitler's regime yet did not agree with the left on many issues. -znip-

Christian Democracy can trace its philosophical roots back to Thomas Aquinas and his thoughts about Aristotelian ontology and the Christian tradition. According to him, human rights are defined as the things that humans need to function properly. For example, food is a human right because without food humans cannot function properly.

Related Concepts
Catholic social teaching
Communitarianism
Compassionate conservatism
Christian left
Christian right
Neo-Calvinism
Radical centrism
Social conservatism
Social market economy
Third Way politics

[Suomipoika]

Right. That gives a really good overall picture, I think. Christin Democrats are, in general, not easily defined strictly on the "left - right" scale... which I only find as a positive quality.

When I was participating in a school tour together with Finnish political youth organizations in the fall of 2006 and after the short presentations the students were told to stick papers with different adjectives under different parties on the blackboard, according to the images and connotations they promted in their minds, Christian Democrats got actually labelled with "youthful" and "modern" by some middle/secondary school aged students, even though we are generally considered as the "value-conservative" party, and even though they had only one paper with each adjective to stick...:cool:

[Suomipoika]

Living in the USA and being political, I don't know what a "Christian democrat" is...?

At least here, democrat almost symbolizes being liberal anymore.

Christian Democrats are a movement completely independent of and separate from the Democratic Party in the U.S.

U.S. Democrats: http://www.democrats.org/

U.S. Christian Democrats: http://www.cdusa.org/

What? Do fries come from potatoes? :scratch:

Have the potatoes already been dug off the ground? :thumbsup:

[KarateCowboy]

What potatoes? :scratch:
It's winter. Too hard for potatoes to be harvested.

[Speculative]

Living in the USA and being political, I don't know what a "Christian democrat" is...?

At least here, democrat almost symbolizes being liberal anymore.In the US, a Christian Democrat would most likely simply be a Christian who is a member of the US Democratic political party. We would be identified on cf by displaying the American flag icon, the http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/US-Democrat.gif and a Christian faith icon, such as http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/Methodist.gif.

Since Jesus Christ is a progressive, one would not be surprised to find many of his followers associated with liberal political parties (although, by international standards, the US Democratic party is not very liberal).

However, as was pointed out, this thread is for a separate icon for a separate movement and I support the idea. :)

[Suomipoika]

We would be identified on cf by displaying the American flag icon, the http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/US-Democrat.gif and a Christian faith icon, such as http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/Methodist.gif

I seriously doubt that would be the "official position" of the Christian Democratic Union in the US. I believe they would much rather have a separate icon used here, if they were to choose, since they are a separate movemennt/party (are they an actual party in the US??).

As for Christian Democrats internationally speaking, they are a movement totally independent of and separate from the Democratic Party in the U.S. Different roots, different history.

What potatoes? :scratch:
It's winter. Too hard for potatoes to be harvested.

Joo, se on vain sellainen hauska suomalainen sanonta! :thumbsup:

[Speculative]

I seriously doubt that would be the "official position" of the Christian Democratic Union in the US. I believe they would much rather have a separate icon used here, if they were to choose, since they are a separate movemennt/party (are they an actual party in the US??).

As for Christian Democrats internationally speaking, they are a movement totally independent of and separate from the Democratic Party in the U.S. Different roots, different history.I am aware of that, which is why I posted

However, as was pointed out, this thread is for a separate icon for a separate movement and I support the idea.The poster to whom I was responding was referring to Christians within the U.S. Democratic party, and although that took us down somewhat of a rabbit trail, I felt her post carried implications that needed to be addressed. Sorry if I added confusion to the thread.

To reiterate, I recognize that this thread is asking for a new icon for a political movement totally unrelated to the U.S. Democratic party, and I support the addition of the new icon.

[Angeldove97]

If someone could come up with an icon they would like to use--- with the correct size like our donkey or elephant dimensions, I will add this to the suggestions list.

[Suomipoika]

I am aware of that, which is why I posted

The poster to whom I was responding was referring to Christians within the U.S. Democratic party, and although that took us down somewhat of a rabbit trail, I felt her post carried implications that needed to be addressed. Sorry if I added confusion to the thread.

To reiterate, I recognize that this thread is asking for a new icon for a political movement totally unrelated to the U.S. Democratic party, and I support the addition of the new icon.

Got it, thanks for the support! :wave:

If someone could come up with an icon they would like to use--- with the correct size like our donkey or elephant dimensions, I will add this to the suggestions list.

I'm sure I could come up with an appropriate icon.

Do you think it would be best to get an "international" icon, that is, one without any kind of country-specification? I could try to find out if there is a Christian Democratic logo that is commonly used in international contexts. Or alternatively, we could just pick the neatest looking one of all the country-specific CD party logos and use it as a common one here.

[Suomipoika]

At least I'd be just fine with this logo:

http://www.germannotes.com/archive/images/cdu.png

How about the national abbreviations, like US, CA, AU etc.? Could that be simply omitted or perhaps replaced with something like "world-wide"? Or should we find the precise logos for each Christian Democratic (Union) parties in their respective countries?

[Nadiine]

doesn't this beg the demand of republicans demanding CHRISTIAN republican icons next?
CHRISTIAN Independant logos?? etc.??

Where does this icon madness end? Sorry no offense, but
I can barely keep straight all the ones they already have here.
Can't we just leave well enough alone on the political stuff?

[Suomipoika]

doesn't this beg the demand of republicans demanding CHRISTIAN republican icons next?
CHRISTIAN Independant logos?? etc.??

Where does this icon madness end? Sorry no offense, but
I can barely keep straight all the ones they already have here.
Can't we just leave well enough alone on the political stuff?

Who ever said the world-wide Christian Democratic movement has anything to do with either American major political party? They are an entirely independent movement with entirely independent (not very American) roots. Please, read the thread from beginning.

The gist is here:

1.Christian Democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy) are an actual political party in dozens of countries.

2. Name one country where "Christian Republicans" or "Christian independents" are an actual political party. No, those are not actual parties in any country.

1 + 2 = It is reasonable at a world-wide Christian discussion board to suggest an icon for a political movement that a great number of Christians are involved with world-wide. I do not think it is reasonable to suggest an icon for parties that don't even exist in one sigle country. Can we agree?


Please, open your eyes for an international Christian forum, and check the party bias of your own country at the door.

[Suomipoika]

I think the political symbol should be named in a way as to make it clear for those Americans unfamiliar with the CD party that the Christian Democratic party/union is not related to the Democratic Party of the USA. Maybe a text like "Christian Democratic Party" or "Christian Democratic Union" appearing when moving the cursor on the icon would clarify the case.

[Nadiine]

I think the political symbol should be named in a way as to make it clear for those Americans unfamiliar with the CD party that the Christian Democratic party/union is not related to the Democratic Party of the USA. Maybe a text like "Christian Democratic Party" or "Christian Democratic Union" appearing when moving the cursor on the icon would clarify the case.
some clarification of some sort would probably be good, becuz here, it's one or the other - any title/term using "democratic party" is normally immediately of the "democrats".

It's just how linguistics are here and it's an immediate perception upon reading "Christian democratic party"... as if now people are trying to claim democrats are Christian

Or...... maybe it's just me? I think Union instead of party would cause Americans to see that it mite be something other than the democratic party we know & understand here.

In this country, liberalism has basically overtaken that party and it's gotten bitter & divisive btwn. republicans & democrats in the direction they vision for this country.
It isn't the same democratic party it used to be in the Kennedy days when he was president. (as I studied his politics later).

[Suomipoika]

some clarification of some sort would probably be good, becuz here, it's one or the other - any title/term using "democratic party" is normally immediately of the "democrats".

It's just how linguistics are here and it's an immediate perception upon reading "Christian democratic party"... as if now people are trying to claim democrats are Christian

Or...... maybe it's just me? I think Union instead of party would cause Americans to see that it mite be something other than the democratic party we know & understand here.

In this country, liberalism has basically overtaken that party and it's gotten bitter & divisive btwn. republicans & democrats in the direction they vision for this country.
It isn't the same democratic party it used to be in the Kennedy days when he was president. (as I studied his politics later).


Nadiine, please understand that this forum is not, or at least should not be all about how some Americans see things from their (America-centered) perspective. There has to be a balance at a world-wide forum.

The Christian Democratic movement is a large, world-wide political-ideological movement and this forum should as well be directed at a large, world-wide use for Christians. The Christian Democratic Party happens to be "the" party of conservative Christians in much of the world.

Most people here who are from countries other than the U.S., Canada, the UK or Australia have no party icon whatsoever to use in their profiles, and I assume a great number of those people are Christians who endorse the Christian Democratic party in their respective countries.

The U.S. is one of the few countries that does not have a functioning Christian Democratic party, although there are some beginnings in the horizon (see for example: http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2008/02/proposed-platform-for-christian.html) At least the UK and Australia have functioning CD parties, and I do find it surprising that, this being a Christian forum, there are no Christian Democratic political icons to choose from for people from the UK and Australia.

You should understand that this international forum should not do everything based on the specific viewpoints of Americans, so that if the icon ende up being named "Christian Democratic Party" like it is in a great number of countries, American Christians who endorse their Republicans and oppose their Democrats would simply have to learn to live with that.

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, please understand that this forum is not, or at least should not be all about how some Americans see things from their (America-centered) perspective. There has to be a balance at a world-wide forum.

The Christian Democratic movement is a large, world-wide political-ideological movement and this forum should as well be directed at a large, world-wide use for Christians. The Christian Democratic Party happens to be "the" party of conservative Christians in much of the world.

Most people here who are from countries other than the U.S., Canada, the UK or Australia have no party icon whatsoever to use in their profiles, and I assume a great number of those people are Christians who endorse the Christian Democratic party in their respective countries.

The U.S. is one of the few countries that does not have a functioning Christian Democratic party, although there are some beginnings in the horizon (see for example: http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2008/02/proposed-platform-for-christian.html) At least the UK and Australia have functioning CD parties, and I do find it surprising that, this being a Christian forum, there are no Christian Democratic political icons to choose from for people from the UK and Australia.

You should understand that this international forum should not do everything based on the specific viewpoints of Americans, so that if the icon ende up being named "Christian Democratic Party" like it is in a great number of countries, American Christians who endorse their Republicans and oppose their Democrats would simply have to learn to live with that.
I understand that just fine, I thought "America" was PART of an international forum? Being as we're a part of the entire world?

Unless we're exempt?

[Suomipoika]

I understand that just fine, I thought "America" was PART of an international forum? Being as we're a part of the entire world?

Unless we're exempt?

No, "you" are very much involved, and make a great, great contribution at this site indeed. My point is that, if there is a party officially named "Christian Democratic Party" in a great number of countries, and if there is a party officially named "Democratic Party" in the U.S., do the people in one country (the U.S.) get to decide that the name "Christian Democratic Party", as it stands in so many countries, should be changed if wished to use on this website, simply because they in that one country happen to associate some negative things with their ("non-Christian"??) Democratic Party? I don't think that would be fair.:)

But anyway, I'm also perfectly fine with the name Christian Democratic Union, and if the logo I posted on last page ("CDU") is chosen, it would, in fact, be the only natural choice to use the word 'union'.

[Suomipoika]

At least in Finland - like in most European countries, I believe - we have the Social Democratic Party (http://www.sdp.fi/en/principles (http://www.sdp.fi/en)) and we have the Christian Democratic Party (http://www.kd.fi/KD/www/en/our_goals/christian_democracy/index.php). The differences between the two are clear and everyone is aware of that fact.

http://www.annakristiina.com/SDP.jpghttp://www.ristorasimus.fi/KD_logo.png

[faith guardian]

At least in Finland - like in most European countries, I believe - we have the Social Democratic Party (http://www.sdp.fi/en/principles (http://www.sdp.fi/en)) and we have the Christian Democratic Party (http://www.kd.fi/KD/www/en/our_goals/christian_democracy/index.php). The differences between the two are clear and everyone is aware of that fact.

http://www.annakristiina.com/SDP.jpghttp://www.ristorasimus.fi/KD_logo.png

I like this one:
http://www.bondelaget.no/bilder/krf_logo1_rgb.jpg
This one is from Sweden:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/Kristdemokraterna.svg/413px-Kristdemokraterna.svg.png

[faith guardian]

doesn't this beg the demand of republicans demanding CHRISTIAN republican icons next?
CHRISTIAN Independant logos?? etc.??

Where does this icon madness end? Sorry no offense, but
I can barely keep straight all the ones they already have here.
Can't we just leave well enough alone on the political stuff?

Nadiine, this has nothing to do with any of the American parties. The name 'Christian Democrat' might as well have been 'Christian whatever' because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the american democratic party.
I guess I can see where your assumption came from though, given that the word 'Democrat' surely gives you certain associations. So I am glad to announce that you're wrong in your assumption. This isn't about the US parties but about a huge international Christian movement in politics. One which I strongly feel should be more clearly represented here.

I think I posted a description of what CD is earlier in the thread, so feel free to read up on it.

-FG

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, this has nothing to do with any of the American parties. The name 'Christian Democrat' might as well have been 'Christian whatever' because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the american democratic party.
I guess I can see where your assumption came from though, given that the word 'Democrat' surely gives you certain associations. So I am glad to announce that you're wrong in your assumption. This isn't about the US parties but about a huge international Christian movement in politics. One which I strongly feel should be more clearly represented here.

I think I posted a description of what CD is earlier in the thread, so feel free to read up on it.

-FG
Ok yes I understand that now - I was simply understanding that as far as American lingo/titles go, this party's name leads Americans to believe it's another democratic party who is simply claiming to be Christian; yet will still vote for democrats. (ergo, I'd wonder what the point was in making another dem. party) lol

that's all I was trying to relay - it's equally important for you to know this if you belong to that party becuz that is the perception Americans will probably have at first glance.
Not that you have to do anything different, just to be aware of that.

I read the defintion and frankly it didn't help me understand a whole lot - it just seemed to be eclectic yet included some liberalism as well - and since I'm adversely opposed to liberalism (in nearly every facet), I'm specifically going to ask, in what way is this CDP 'liberal'?

[faith guardian]

Ok yes I understand that now - I was simply understanding that as far as American lingo/titles go, this party's name leads Americans to believe it's another democratic party who is simply claiming to be Christian; yet will still vote for democrats. (ergo, I'd wonder what the point was in making another dem. party) lol

No worries Nadiine, I figured that's what had happened :)
I wish this was another board though, because I wonder why you think voting Democrat and being Christian are mutually exclusive.


that's all I was trying to relay - it's equally important for you to know this if you belong to that party becuz that is the perception Americans will probably have at first glance.
Not that you have to do anything different, just to be aware of that.

Yeah. I see that. Which is one reason why we should include it. Maybe it can help the average American see the diversity of the world a bit more clearly?


I read the defintion and frankly it didn't help me understand a whole lot - it just seemed to be eclectic yet included some liberalism as well - and since I'm adversely opposed to liberalism (in nearly every facet), I'm specifically going to ask, in what way is this CDP 'liberal'?

I generally hate to answer a question with another question, but I should possibly do so now.
What do you mean by liberal?

Jesus, for example, was quite liberal in many ways. And then again, so was Anton Szandor Lavey (father of the satanic church). Of course Anton could also be seen as conservative on certain issues. As could Jesus.
It all depends on your vantage-point. Where do you stand, what do you mean with the word liberal? The differences in definition of that word can be the difference between labelling Jesus a liberal and Lavey a conservative. Or the other way around.
I'll be happy to answer your question. I just need more to go on.

[Suomipoika]

I'm specifically going to ask, in what way is this CDP 'liberal'?


You should probably go to other threads to read about different definitions of "liberalism". What I can say is that Christian Democrats would definetily be more "redemption-oriented" than "punishment-oriented" on many questions on social justice, for example death penalty, pre-emptive war and social welfare issues. But in addition to that, they are pro-life and pro- traditional marriage and family values. So pretty much nothing like either Republicans and Democrats in the U.S.

Here are the core values of the Christian Democrats in Finland:

http://www.kd.fi/KD/www/en/our_goals/christian_democracy/index.php

Go and read them. You happen to be the first person I've ever heard calling them "liberal" (of course, I recognize that Christian Democrats have slightly different emphases in different countries, but generally they are part of the same continuum). Well, how do you define "liberal"? For starters, in addition to "liberal" and "conservative" being very relative terms, "political liberal" and "theological liberal", for example, apply to completely different domains of language. And once you're within the domain of politics, you have "classical liberal" and you have "neo-liberal" with very different meanings...



Here's probably the part of the main principles of Finnish Christian Democrats that I personally find the most beautiful and Christ-like:

1.3. Every human being is unique

The central value of the Christian Democrats is human dignity, based on God's work of creation. Everyone is a unique and indispensable individual. Human dignity is based on a person's being, not on their doing or abilities. It is priceless, regardless of gender, age, position, religion, origin of birth or other criteria.

Human life and dignity is to be respected right from conception to natural death. The starting point of Christian Democrats is always to be on the side of life, be it in the use of human embryos, abortion or euthanasia. Respecting and protecting life must be the principle also when defining the limits of scientific research.
According to the Christian democratic view of humanity, a person is the sum of his or her physical, psychological, spiritual and social aspects. Everyone should be enabled to grow in a balanced way in all these areas of life.
Acknowledging human dignity leads to human rights which have been listed in documents such as the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, on children's rights, on removing discrimination against women. Basic needs, such as food, housing, a safe environment, health care and education as well as work to provide an adequate livelihood must be secured for everyone. The Christian Democrats want to cherish all the above, and will act particularly on protecting the rights of those who are treated contrary to their human dignity.
Human rights are always connected with obligations and responsibilities. The right to life brings with it the obligation to protect it. To the right of freedom of expression belongs the obligation to be honest. The right to education means an obligation to self development. Also, from the right to have an adequate livelihood it follows that an individual is responsible for seeking employment, provided the person is able to do so and work is available.
A totally self-centred view of freedom often means freedom only for the strong while the weak are left bereft of it. Christian Democracy emphasises that human freedom and responsibility are inseparably interlinked. Every human being is responsible for their chosen actions not only to other people but also to God. Because every human being is imperfect and fallible, we need continuous self evaluation. This also concerns the Party as a community.

[Suomipoika]

Nadiine, maybe you remember William Jennings Bryan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jennings_Bryan

I read somewhere that some Christian Democratic Union people in the U.S.A. consider Bryan kind of like one of their "predecessors" in American politics.

[Nadiine]

I missed your posts, and I see there's quite a bit for me to read over and some things I wanted to respond to, so I'll try to reply by tomorrow?
.
I have a busy day today and might not be able to reply as soon as I'd like to. Thanks for your replies =)

[Suomipoika]

I missed your posts, and I see there's quite a bit for me to read over and some things I wanted to respond to, so I'll try to reply by tomorrow?
.
I have a busy day today and might not be able to reply as soon as I'd like to. Thanks for your replies =)

Well, by all means, keep on asking questions if you're curious. Not sure if I can give comprehensive answers to everything, though. This thread is more about getting that darned logo available, anyway... :)

[ProfessorMom]

Political icons are up.

Closing.