A Question about Catholicism.........

[Knightwolflord]

I have a few questions:

1. Does the Orthodox Church believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are in the Catholic Eucharist as it is in the Orthodox Eucharist?

2. Does the Orthodox Church believe that Roman Catholic priests have the grace of the priesthood?

3. Does the Orthodox Church believe that those who approach Roman Catholic priests in confession receive sacramental absolution as in the Orthodox Mystery of Confession?

4. Is Roman Catholicism considered a heresy in the Orthodox Church?


Thanks in advance!

[jckstraw72]

1. Does the Orthodox Church believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are in the Catholic Eucharist as it is in the Orthodox Eucharist?

2. Does the Orthodox Church believe that Roman Catholic priests have the grace of the priesthood?

3. Does the Orthodox Church believe that those who approach Roman Catholic priests in confession receive sacramental absolution as in the Orthodox Mystery of Confession?

we dont know

4. Is Roman Catholicism considered a heresy in the Orthodox Church?

yes

[Philothei]

I have a few questions:

1. Does the Orthodox Church believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are in the Catholic Eucharist as it is in the Orthodox Eucharist?

2. Does the Orthodox Church believe that Roman Catholic priests have the grace of the priesthood?

3. Does the Orthodox Church believe that those who approach Roman Catholic priests in confession receive sacramental absolution as in the Orthodox Mystery of Confession?

4. Is Roman Catholicism considered a heresy in the Orthodox Church?


Thanks in advance!


Although we believe that RC has apostolic succesion since we were One Church still we are "in schism" thus....yes some sacraments are accepted i.e. baptism or marriage... but not in their totality..it is complecated

1.No and yes..We believe that the RC eucarist their is the presence of the Body and Blood of Christ but we are not in communion thus an EO christian cannot participate in the RC eucarist.
2.Again... yes we accept that the priesthood in the RC is valid ..... But still if a RC priest 'converts" to Orthodoxy he has to be "re-ordained" (after he is christmated) ... So his priesthood is considered invalid according to the canons.

3. No absulutely no we cannot go to confession under a RC priest and recieve absolution. The sacrament has to be done by an EO priest. SAme as the eucarist...we do not have intercommunion.

Roman Catholic Church and Easter Orhtodox church is "in schism" and that is how officially we declare our relationship with each other. At least that is how it is declared in official documents. We refrain to use the word 'heressy' and 'heretic' in recent years for we believe in 'healing the wounds' rather than flaming the differences..... That was a notion due to our patriarch Athenagoras who 'lifted the anathema" in the 60s....(maybe it was 50s not sure....) ...

Hope that helped a bit.:scratch:
Philothei

[Anhelyna]

KnightWolford

I'm sorry to be a wee bit picky here - but please remember that not all Catholics are Roman Catholics - I'm not for one .

I would also appreciate if you would perhaps confirm more precisely what you meant in
3. Does the Orthodox Church believe that those who approach Roman Catholic priests in confession receive sacramental absolution as in the Orthodox Mystery of Confession?I presume here you are meaning RCs approaching RC Priests [ though my comments re terminology still do apply :) ]

[Michael the Iconographer]

KW, I for one question why you are even here asking this question. What are your motives?

[Knightwolflord]

KnightWolford

I'm sorry to be a wee bit picky here - but please remember that not all Catholics are Roman Catholics - I'm not for one .

I would also appreciate if you would perhaps confirm more precisely what you meant in
I presume here you are meaning RCs approaching RC Priests [ though my comments re terminology still do apply :) ]
I do.

[Knightwolflord]

KnightWolford
I presume here you are meaning RCs approaching RC Priests [ though my comments re terminology still do apply :) ]

I do

And I also understand that not all Catholics are Roman.

But it's too late for me to change the OP. :-(

[Knightwolflord]

KW, I for one question why you are even here asking this question. What are your motives?
My motives?

[gorion]

Why care what we think? What difference does it make? You have your faith we have ours Kumba Ya ;)

[choirfiend]

Although we believe that RC has apostolic succesion since we were One Church still we are "in schism" thus....yes some sacraments are accepted i.e. baptism or marriage... but not in their totality..it is complecated

1.No and yes..We believe that the RC eucarist their is the presence of the Body and Blood of Christ but we are not in communion thus an EO christian cannot participate in the RC eucarist.
2.Again... yes we accept that the priesthood in the RC is valid ..... But still if a RC priest 'converts" to Orthodoxy he has to be "re-ordained" (after he is christmated) ... So his priesthood is considered invalid according to the canons.

3. No absulutely no we cannot go to confession under a RC priest and recieve absolution. The sacrament has to be done by an EO priest. SAme as the eucarist...we do not have intercommunion.

Roman Catholic Church and Easter Orhtodox church is "in schism" and that is how officially we declare our relationship with each other. At least that is how it is declared in official documents. We refrain to use the word 'heressy' and 'heretic' in recent years for we believe in 'healing the wounds' rather than flaming the differences..... That was a notion due to our patriarch Athenagoras who 'lifted the anathema" in the 60s....(maybe it was 50s not sure....) ...

Hope that helped a bit.:scratch:
Philothei
Philothei,

I don't believe your response is correct. We do not affirm that the RCC has any type of valid, real sacramental anything, be it communion, orders, or anything else. We are generally silent on the status, only asserting that they are outside the bounds of the Church, being in schism and in error re: dogmatic teachings.

[Anhelyna]

I agree with Michael , wondering just why you are asking these questions.

[Michael the Iconographer]

My motives?
Yes, why are you asking this? What is your motivation? Have you come in peace or to start a fight? And what do you care what we think?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Philothei,

I don't believe your response is correct. We do not affirm that the RCC has any type of valid, real sacramental anything, be it communion, orders, or anything else. We are generally silent on the status, only asserting that they are outside the bounds of the Church, being in schism and in error re: dogmatic teachings.
Correction, we do acknowlege Catholic baptism and I know atleast one Orthodox priest who nearly acknowledged a Catholic Chrismation.

[Anhelyna]

I have the feeling that Knightwolford is asking a lot of questions about Orthodoxy in a few other places too :)

Like many of us he has more than 1 ID depending which Board he is posting on.

If my memory serves me correctly he has posted on TAW a wee while back indicating his interest in Orthodoxy

[Asinner]

Yes, why are you asking this? What is your motivation? Have you come in peace or to start a fight? And what do you care what we think?

Paranoia will destroy ya!;)

[choirfiend]

we acknowledge the form of the baptism, which is different from acknowledging the Baptism. We do NOT recognize a RCC baptism; that is a common misconception about our generalized baptism policies.

[choirfiend]

And, agreed: Let's not be "attacking" people who come here with questions. Let's give the benefit of the doubt until any reason otherwise.

[Asinner]

I have a few questions:

1. Does the Orthodox Church believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are in the Catholic Eucharist as it is in the Orthodox Eucharist?

2. Does the Orthodox Church believe that Roman Catholic priests have the grace of the priesthood?

3. Does the Orthodox Church believe that those who approach Roman Catholic priests in confession receive sacramental absolution as in the Orthodox Mystery of Confession?

4. Is Roman Catholicism considered a heresy in the Orthodox Church?


Thanks in advance!

Firstly,

Welcome to TAW.:wave:

And secondly, we believe that the Grace the Catholic Church had, is less today than it was yesterday.

Love,
Christina

[Asinner]

And, agreed: Let's not be "attacking" people who come here with questions. Let's give the benefit of the doubt until any reason otherwise.

:thumbsup:

[Monica, child of God]

we acknowledge the form of the baptism, which is different from acknowledging the Baptism. We do NOT recognize a RCC baptism; that is a common misconception about our generalized baptism policies.

Yes this is what I have been taught. We don't have an opinion one way or the other officially about sacraments performed outside of the Church. If a person was baptized in the name of the Trinity and with water, the Orthodox Church will accept the form as though it were a hollow shell. The chrismation done by the Orthodox priest fills the empty shell with whatever grace it lacked.

In the case of Coptic and Tewahedo Christians because the form and meaning of chrismation has been retained, they may be recieved (at least in the OCA; not sure about others) by confession and communion which fill their baptism and chrismation with whatever grace it may lack. The RCC has changed somewhat the emphasis of chrismation/confirmation and so they are annointed at chrismation only on the forehead but not the other senses/members.

From reading Father Seraphim Rose's letters to his spiritual son, I know that he approved of the reception of one Catholic convert via confession and communion only. But again, it is not that those sacraments are valid for sure. Rather the grace recieved in our Mysteries fills them.

I am no expert but that is what I have been taught.

M.

[Knightwolflord]

Why care what we think? What difference does it make? You have your faith we have ours Kumba Ya ;)
I care mainly because I was raised Baptist and now I am trying to discern whether to become Orthodox or Catholic.

I am leaning Catholic, but their are doubts lingering in my mind and I want to learn the Orthodox perspective.

[Knightwolflord]

I am asking all these questions because I was raised a Baptist, however after studying the Bible and the Early Fathers I concluded that Protestantism was NOT the Church Jesus founded. I therefore looked into Catholicism and for a while now I have been involved in the Catholic Church's RCIA program.

However I am suffering doubts about whether the Catholic or Orthodox Churches represent the totality of Biblical and historical Christianity.

I live in the Deep South, so I have limited access to any Orthodox to answer my endless questions.

Except here on the net.

Sorry if I have offended anyone by my woeful ignorance. I just burn to know, to be sure that what I am doing is right.

[JustinHesychast]

From reading Father Seraphim Rose's letters to his spiritual son, I know that he approved of the reception of one Catholic convert via confession and communion only. But again, it is not that those sacraments are valid for sure. Rather the grace recieved in our Mysteries fills them.

I'll have to ask my spiritual father if this is what happened to him, because my SF was a spiritual son of Fr. Seraphim Rose and he used to be Roman Catholic. :)

[JustinHesychast]

I am asking all these questions because I was raised a Baptist, however after studying the Bible and the Early Fathers I concluded that Protestantism was NOT the Church Jesus founded. I therefore looked into Catholicism and for a while now I have been involved in the Catholic Church's RCIA program.

However I am suffering doubts about whether the Catholic or Orthodox Churches represent the totality of Biblical and historical Christianity.

I live in the Deep South, so I have limited access to any Orthodox to answer my endless questions.

Except here on the net.

Sorry if I have offended anyone by my woeful ignorance. I just burn to know, to be sure that what I am doing is right.

I don't see anything you have done wrong. I am very happy you are asking questions! :D

I am from the South as well, I live in Tennessee. ^_^ May God bless you wherever he leads you! I look forward to the rest of the replies in this thread as I try to soak up the knowledge. :)

[buzuxi02]

We do not recognize sacraments outside our Church. While theres been reapproachment and dialogues between the EO and RC- the truth is, the entire reason we are seperated is because we consider the other heretical (while in this age of political correctness you rarely hear this , this is how we traditionally view each other)

The reception of converts who were formally heterodox in the case of baptism is dealt with in the canons. These canons pre-date the schism but still apply. For instance, nestorians and monophysites were recieved thru a denunciation of heresies and their hersiarchs and a confession of faith and immediately be admitted to communion without baptism or chrismation. This is because they followed perfectly the form (triple immersion in the name of the trinity) and also held to the same Orthodox belief and understanding of the Trinity.

[Philothei]

We do accept in the Greek Orthodox Church the baptism and the marriage as sacraments... We recieve RC members with Chrismation... What I failed to say is that only the Churches in SCOBA do accept that... some other churces like ROCOR do not...

My statements are for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese only. I am not wrong to say we are at schism .... Whether there are dogmatic differences... that is not what the OP asked... he mainly asked about sacramental union and I answered.

[choirfiend]

We do accept in the Greek Orthodox Church the baptism and the marriage as sacraments... We recieve RC members with Chrismation... What I failed to say is that only the Churches in SCOBA do accept that... some other churces like ROCOR do not...

My statements are for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese only. I am not wrong to say we are at schism .... Whether there are dogmatic differences... that is not what the OP asked... he mainly asked about sacramental union and I answered.
No, I'm still talking about SCOBA churches. We accept some RCC converts through Chrismation, but that is for the reason explained by Monica above. She attends an OCA church, and that GOA is no different. We do not accept their sacraments; we accept the form of baptism. And it's not that we accept their marriage sacrament; we generally do not make ppl undergo an Orthodox marriage if they come to Orthodoxy after years of married life.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Paranoia will destroy ya!;)
Not paranoia, just experience dealing with people from OBOB coming over asking "innocent questions" that always had barbs on them!!!

[Knightwolflord]

I don't see anything you have done wrong. I am very happy you are asking questions! :D

I am from the South as well, I live in Tennessee. ^_^ May God bless you wherever he leads you! I look forward to the rest of the replies in this thread as I try to soak up the knowledge. :)
Yay! Another Southerner!

I am a South Carolinian. It is lowland and pine country out here LOL.

I can't wait to visit the Smokies this spring-break.

Get away from all that dang college work and find rest in the mountains.....ahhhhhh.....

Anyway thanks.

[Knightwolflord]

Not paranoia, just experience dealing with people from OBOB coming over asking "innocent questions" that always had barbs on them!!!

Whoa! Sorry. :sorry:

But there are no barbs here. :D

Just a curious teenage convert to the Apostolic Churches. :thumbsup:

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yes this is what I have been taught. We don't have an opinion one way or the other officially about sacraments performed outside of the Church. If a person was baptized in the name of the Trinity and with water, the Orthodox Church will accept the form as though it were a hollow shell. The chrismation done by the Orthodox priest fills the empty shell with whatever grace it lacked.

In the case of Coptic and Tewahedo Christians because the form and meaning of chrismation has been retained, they may be recieved (at least in the OCA; not sure about others) by confession and communion which fill their baptism and chrismation with whatever grace it may lack. The RCC has changed somewhat the emphasis of chrismation/confirmation and so they are annointed at chrismation only on the forehead but not the other senses/members.

From reading Father Seraphim Rose's letters to his spiritual son, I know that he approved of the reception of one Catholic convert via confession and communion only. But again, it is not that those sacraments are valid for sure. Rather the grace recieved in our Mysteries fills them.

I am no expert but that is what I have been taught.

M.
Fr. Basil S. nearly accepted me into Orthodoxy in the same way: through confession and public recitation of the creed and then reception of the Eucharist, but in the end decided to Chrismate me.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Whoa! Sorry. :sorry:

But there are no barbs here. :D

Just a curious teenage convert to the Apostolic Churches. :thumbsup:
There is only one Apostolic Church. Rome lost its apostolicity when it schismed from Orthodox Christianity.

[Knightwolflord]

There is only one Apostolic Church. Rome lost its apostolicity when it schismed from Orthodox Christianity.

Once again, please forgive me for my woeful ignorance.

That is why I am here, to learn. Not to attack or to offend, just to learn.

Forgive me.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Welcome to TAW, Knightwolford!

[Knightwolflord]

Thank you. :)

BTW, I love you sig line.

[gorion]

Thank you. :)

BTW, I love you sig line.
I wasn't trying tio insinuate you were doing anything wrong, you just have to understand that when somone who is displaying a catholic cross comes in and asks "what do you think of my church?" a person may ask himself why would he ask such an odd question.

[Nichole]

Welcome and feel free to ask!!! I am in the South (Georgia) also. :( LOL! Anyway...........welcome here!

[Orthocat]

I am asking all these questions because I was raised a Baptist, however after studying the Bible and the Early Fathers I concluded that Protestantism was NOT the Church Jesus founded. I therefore looked into Catholicism and for a while now I have been involved in the Catholic Church's RCIA program.

However I am suffering doubts about whether the Catholic or Orthodox Churches represent the totality of Biblical and historical Christianity.

I live in the Deep South, so I have limited access to any Orthodox to answer my endless questions.

Except here on the net.

Sorry if I have offended anyone by my woeful ignorance. I just burn to know, to be sure that what I am doing is right.


I too am in the deep south.
There are churches and even monasteries around you my friend. :)

I was raised Baptist - independent actually.
I spent much of my life attempting to find the "real" church, and like you, after studying, realized it was not in the protestant churches.

I was personally blessed by Pope JPII in the Vatican back in the eighties. Many Orthodox believe that one of the greatest sins and deceptions of mankind is 'papal infallibility'. This is like, anathema to many.

I discovered Orthodoxy accidentally, because like you state, Orthodoxy is foreign to the south.
In my wanderings I ended up at a monastery in Greece for a period.
And after all that time, all those churches, I knew...I just knew...I had found the answer to my searches.
The beauty still surpasses anything seen before.
The words and prayers are heartfelt to the point of tears, even just reading the Fathers' words.
And believe me, the Orthodox have been persecuted since the beginning by every evil on earth, yet the gates of hell have not prevailed against this Church.

Orthodoxy feels that the RCC and its protestants are both part of a wrong turn, if you will.
The RCC broke away, and lost the right path (not totally, but only one degree will throw you completely in the end) and then the protestants broke away from them. So protestants are only + or - of Roman Catholicism, and no closer to Orthodoxy.
Forgive my harshness in this matter.

If you have any questions concerning any of these matters feel free to msg me. I will answer the best that my pathetic wretched mind can...

May God's love be upon you and light your journey toward the Truth.

[Breaking Babylon]

That was a beautiful post.

We miss you over on the cat box. Don was asking about you just the other day.

[Philothei]

http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1984lima.html

If you are interested you could dive in to this document so that you can get an idea of our common understanding... Despite what words you use the Catholic Church's sacraments are accepted (baptism without the Chrismation). In special cases and under the blessing of a Bishop (if there is no orhtodox Church around) our of dispensation it might be granted to an EO member to attend a Catholic Church. It used to be the practice in areas here in America where Churches were scarse..

Although this is not the original document it elaborates on its points. You wil find in the site how the deligation between our Churches are coming along and the progress they have accomplished....


God bless,
Philothei

[Orthocat]

That was a beautiful post.

We miss you over on the cat box. Don was asking about you just the other day.


ah yes...the cat box!!! :thumbsup:

I do need to get back. God has blessed me with great struggles over the last 7 to 8 months and I have lost touch...but my Lord sends such blessings I am back now.
see you guys soon!

[Knowledge3]

http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1984lima.html

If you are interested you could dive in to this document so that you can get an idea of our common understanding... Despite what words you use the Catholic Church's sacraments are accepted (baptism without the Chrismation). In special cases and under the blessing of a Bishop (if there is no orhtodox Church around) our of dispensation it might be granted to an EO member to attend a Catholic Church. It used to be the practice in areas here in America where Churches were scarse..

Although this is not the original document it elaborates on its points. You wil find in the site how the deligation between our Churches are coming along and the progress they have accomplished....


God bless,
Philothei

Are you asking me to write or produce a new document for you?

. . .

[ArmyMatt]

yeah the Church in Rome lost her Apostolic Succession in 1054 when she left the True Church. when the West left the True teaching of the Apostles, she also lost the fullness of the grace that was given to the Apostles. and, sadly, it has been a downward slope ever since, especially in modern times.

[EmperorConstantine]

First off, welcome to TAW! :wave:


Second, please forgive some of our paranoia. We've had Protestants of all sorts and some OBOB zealots coming here asking "innocent questions" with the intent of making new howitzers and missiles to launch in our direction. I do remember one Calvinist who was here and asking about Orthodoxy before going on a "mission trip" to Montenegro, a predominately Orthodox nation, and needless to say, if I recall correctly, was convinced to do otherwise. :holy:


I was raised Roman Catholic, but I know many here were raised Protestant in some way, shape or form. My conversion was largely by osmosis, but mostly God calling. When I became Orthodox, I went through a brief period of inquirer's class, had confession that night and afterward was chrismated since I was baptized via water and Father, Son and Holy Spirit, when I was five years old.

There are two major factors that had me "convinced" about Orthodoxy. The first is that no matter what parish I went to, I was with the same spirit of love and compassion as everyone in the parish. They did not care that I was Roman Catholic at the time whether it was my now parish home in Washington State or the parish I became Orthodox at in Miami. I had been to a few Protestant churches when I was Roman Catholic and about 4/5 times when they found out I was Roman Catholic, they would try to convert me. That never happened at any Orthodox parish.

The second major factor was history. I love history. I consider myself to be a "quasi-historian" and so I read a book on the history of Orthodoxy and the rest is history.:)

[nikolayalexandroff]

Philothei,

I don't believe your response is correct. We do not affirm that the RCC has any type of valid, real sacramental anything, be it communion, orders, or anything else. We are generally silent on the status, only asserting that they are outside the bounds of the Church, being in schism and in error re: dogmatic teachings.
AFAIK, according to the tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church, RCC priests are admitted without reordaining. That was our tradition for the last two centuries. Though Greeks are more strict. Or they were.

[Emmanuel-A]

It seems that regarding the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox all agree to disagree.

The Russian Orthodox Church tends to recognize the apostolic succession, sacraments and "canonical territory" of the RCC (just read bishop Hilarion Alfeyev's recent words, I'll try to post a link) even if it otherwise states that the Orthodox church is the One true Church.

If you go to the Holy Mountain, you'll probably hear that everything done outside the Orthodox Church is of no value.

Between those two extremes, you'll find a great variety of positions. Basically, it's up to each bishop to recognize or not the things done outside the Church, depending on the situation and circumstances.

[prodromos]

Yay! Another Southerner!

I am a South Carolinian. It is lowland and pine country out here LOL.How far are you from Macon, GA ?
One of the original Orthodox on this forum, Oblio, has his parish there, St Innocent Orthodox Church (http://www.st-innocent.org/). Oblio hasn't been on the forums since October last year, I suspect his family responsibilities have taken priority, but I am certain he would welcome a visit.
If you look at the photos from the Church consecration (http://www.st-innocent.org/StInnocent/images/Consecration/index.html), Oblio (Chris) is photo number 5, just under Vladika Dmitri.
Check out the website of the Southern Diocese (http://www.dosoca.org/), you might find there's a church closer than you think.


from the Diocese website:The date for the consecration of Holy Ascension Orthodox Church in Mt Pleasant, SC has been set for Saturday, May 24, 2008. This is also the weekend for the famous Charleston, SC “Spoleto Music and Arts Festival.” Thus rooms in the greater Charleston area will be at a premium.

If you are considering traveling to Charleston for the consecration, please email Priest John Parker at “frjohn@ocacharleston.org” for reservation information. Also please find here (http://www.dosoca.org/files/holy_ascension_building/construction.update.2.07.08.pdf) that latest a dramatic photos of Holy Ascension.


John

[Philothei]

AFAIK, according to the tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church, RCC priests are admitted without reordaining. That was our tradition for the last two centuries. Though Greeks are more strict. Or they were.
Yes sometimes we do accept the ordination too...I think (although not sure...) that it has been a case or two in the old days... here at the USA. I think they accepted them though confession...

Now things are more formal and pretty set so that there are no inconcistances.

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't know much about how the Orthodox view Catholic sacraments, sorry I can't really help in this way... well I think that to decide between these two churches, you really have to decide about the Pope.. study the early church, Scriptures, etc..pray lots.. :) God bless you in your search..

btw I have a quick question too along these lines..does the Orthodox church believe that it's a possibility that Catholic Communion is really Christ's Body and Blood? Or is this completely rejected?

[jckstraw72]

not reordaining does NOT mean we say Catholic ordinations are valid. How do we know that a Roman Catholic priest is truly ordained in teh eyes of God, and is truly consecrating the Eucharist, etc etc. If they come to Orthodoxy it is fulfilled, but we do not know if a Catholic priest is valid or not.

[Philothei]

it is and it is not... Tricky to say ... We do recognize they do have the real presence. BUT since we are in schism we are not in communion with them thus an EO cannot partake communion in the RC.... Hope that made sense..

We do accept that the RC has real presence in their Eucarist but since we are not in communion with them ... (due to schism) we are not allowed to partake...

hope that helps.

[Philothei]

It is not that we do not know.. rather we do not accept it.. Why say we do not know? We were one church and the RC has apostolic succesion ... the only oblstacle IS there is no intercommunion.... due to schism...

[jckstraw72]

We do accept that the RC has real presence in their Eucarist but since we are not in communion with them ... (due to schism) we are not allowed to partake...

i dont think we can say we accept that they have Real Presence, there are many Orthodox who would say they absolutely do not, but officially we don't even attempt to lay down a position. they might, they might not. they might have some grace, but not the actual Presence.

[MoNiCa4316]

Oki, thanks :)

[buzuxi02]

Whatever variations take place in Orthodoxy, its based on eikonomia. Eikonomia simply means leniency and is up to the discretion of the bishop.
This leniency is applied to the interpretation of the canons where a canon can even be disregarded.

Depending on political circumstances; such as when relations between the Orthodox and RC are strained; the Church can apply "akrivia". Akrevia means "exactitude" and is the opposite of eikonomia. Akrivia signifys the application of the canons in their strictest sense.

Some practises of eikonomia as in the case of russians accepting rc priests into orthodox without reordination have to do with latin influence. The latin interaction with Russia was immense during the time when the rest of the Orthodox nations were under the Turkish yoke. The great russian theologian George Florovsky refered to this as 'the 300 years of Latin capitivity of Russian theology'.

Today we have the influence of the WCC and its ecumenism. Regardless of the foreign influence exherted, Orthodoxy does not recognize sacraments outside Her.

But thru the application of eikonomia, a heterodox seeker needs not to be (re)baptized. The heterodox baptism in the former confession will count as the first and only baptism. On the other hand, if the bishop insists on an Orthodox baptism then the Orthodox baptism is his first and only.

When a bishop does not seek (re)baptism, applying eikonomia (leniency), it means that upon entrance into the Orthodox Church, that which was lacking in the heterodox baptism os made full. Anotherwords the Church seizes the heterodox baptism and makes it Her very own, making complete, whole, full and Orthodox, the once hollow form.

[ThePilgrim]

Whatever variations take place in Orthodoxy, its based on eikonomia. Eikonomia simply means leniency and is up to the discretion of the bishop.
This leniency is applied to the interpretation of the canons where a canon can even be disregarded.

Depending on political circumstances; such as when relations between the Orthodox and RC are strained; the Church can apply "akrivia". Akrevia means "exactitude" and is the opposite of eikonomia. Akrivia signifys the application of the canons in their strictest sense.

Some practises of eikonomia as in the case of russians accepting rc priests into orthodox without reordination have to do with latin influence. The latin interaction with Russia was immense during the time when the rest of the Orthodox nations were under the Turkish yoke. The great russian theologian George Florovsky refered to this as 'the 300 years of Latin capitivity of Russian theology'.

Today we have the influence of the WCC and its ecumenism. Regardless of the foreign influence exherted, Orthodoxy does not recognize sacraments outside Her.

But thru the application of eikonomia, a heterodox seeker needs not to be (re)baptized. The heterodox baptism in the former confession will count as the first and only baptism. On the other hand, if the bishop insists on an Orthodox baptism then the Orthodox baptism is his first and only.

When a bishop does not seek (re)baptism, applying eikonomia (leniency), it means that upon entrance into the Orthodox Church, that which was lacking in the heterodox baptism os made full. Anotherwords the Church seizes the heterodox baptism and makes it Her very own, making complete, whole, full and Orthodox, the once hollow form.
*nods*

Yes, that is the Orthodox position.

[ArmyMatt]

I heard somewhere that the RCC believes that God's energies are a part of the created order, and they only partake of God's Divine nature when they become purified. if this is true, then what are they taking when they go to the Sacraments especially Communion (since none are purified yet)? it's not the Divine Energies of God, because none are pure yet, so how is it the Mystical Glorified Body and Blood?

since the energies are created, and not uncreated as seen in the Orthodox East, how can a created energy be used to aide those who partake of the uncreated Nature of God?

just some thoughts

I heard this during a debate from a Catholic buddy, so if I am wrong please ignore this comment and forgive me.

[Philothei]

It is very deep waters you are in... See in the west everything is "disected" and categorized... in the east we call it "mystery"... That should be enough... because we do believe that the eucarist is the mystical body and blood of Christ. We refrain from "observing" it or "conseptualize" or "visualize" it as if was 'visual' it would not by mysterium tremendom... would it?
Also in the west they do mix up the energies (rays according to St. Gregory Palamas) and essence of God...(source, sun) . They follow the Anquinas formula of God being "actus purus" pure energy.

Palamas differentiates between God's energies (maybe present in eucarist) and essence (the very core of God that "no one has seen and lived" according to Moses...) . His energies are for example God's grace, his mercy, virtures, blessings and all that are of God... His core essence is unknown to us... and we are not partakers of that realm... Now as far as the eucarist we are connected to God's essence as it says that (in Liturgy) "every gift is from above for you are athe God of light...." ... so we do participate in God's enegries now about his essence ... that is beyond our understanding and we better leave it to that. That is the reason we call it Mystery and partaking the Eucarist "mystically".....
Hope that helps a bit.

Philothei

[Thekla]

I heard somewhere that the RCC believes that God's energies are a part of the created order, and they only partake of God's Divine nature when they become purified. if this is true, then what are they taking when they go to the Sacraments especially Communion (since none are purified yet)? it's not the Divine Energies of God, because none are pure yet, so how is it the Mystical Glorified Body and Blood?

since the energies are created, and not uncreated as seen in the Orthodox East, how can a created energy be used to aide those who partake of the uncreated Nature of God?

just some thoughts

I heard this during a debate from a Catholic buddy, so if I am wrong please ignore this comment and forgive me.
to add to Philothei, Fr, John Romanides deals with this issue in several writings, including Ancestral Sin, Zephyr. Pub., and Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, pub. Orthodox Research Institute

[Tigg]

Thanks to all of you who answered Knightwolflord's questions. Ones I would have liked to ask if I was brave enough. I lurk a lot here but have often wondered about the very things he asked. I have no intention of bothering anyone on there home turf. :) Or really being mean otherwise either. Again thanks to all who have posted.

Special thanks to you, Knightwolflord.