PDA

View Full Version : The Roman's did it.


visionary
28th February 2008, 12:50 PM
I propose that the Roman's engineered the it all.

(1) According to Josephus, Herod Antipas executed John the Baptist for purely political "expediency":

Quote:
Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 18.5.2


(2) According to St. Matthew:

Quote:
Matthew 14:5-10
Although Herod wanted to put him to death, he feared the crowd, because they regarded John as a prophet. But when Herod's birthday came, the daughter of Herodias danced before them and pleased Herod, so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Having been prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." Although he was grieved, the king commanded it to be given because of his oaths, and because of his dinner guests. He sent and had John beheaded in the prison.



CONCLUSION: These accounts agree 100.00%.

(i) Josephus explains the motive (political "expediency")

(ii) St. Matthew explains the means (staged danced where Herod pretends to be smitten by Salome, and offers her half his kingdom amidst the feigned heat of passion, and then feigns to be "sorry" when she, on cue, asks for John's head in a basket)


PARALLELS: Both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ were highly popular with the masses (cf. Matt 14:5; Mark 12:12).

Thus, the politicians had to come up with "creative" ways to execute their hated rivals without appearing guilty in the eyes of the masses.

Both times, the politicians successfully evaded blame for their crimes by orchestrating events to pin the apparent guilt on others (Herod used Herodias' daughter Salome, Pilate used the High Priests).

johnd
28th February 2008, 01:05 PM
Ah, but the biblical account of Christ's conviction was the result of the crowds crying out for his blood. He was popular early on, but the crowds thinned out at least a year and a half before the Lord was tried.

The sanhedrin stirred up the crowds and forced the hand of a very timid Roman governor.

The political expediency in this case was of the sanhedrin...

visionary
28th February 2008, 02:29 PM
During the Trial of Jesus, Jewish scholar Walter Ziffer has noted that Pilate acts out the role of Jewish judge, obeying particularities of Jewish jurisprudence. In particular, Jewish judges who presided over capital cases would wash their hands, and instruct the witnesses against the convicted accused that "his blood be upon your heads" if they bore false witness. Cf. Joshua 2:19, 2 Samuel 1:16, 1 Kings 2:32ff, Ezekiel 18:13, 33:4, Acts 18:6.

Many have speculated that the mobs accusing Jesus so vocally were paid by the Sadducees, who opened up the Temple treasury. However, we also know that the Sadducees were Roman collaborators. Thus, the mob accusing Jesus was, at root, a Roman paid mob. Remember Judas's blood money

visionary
28th February 2008, 10:04 PM
Extra-biblical sources universally portray Pilate as a cruel and calculating tyrant. This is jarringly dissonant with Pilate's behavior as reported in the Gospels. In short, at the Trial of Yeshua, Pilate was behaving totally out of character.... which means he was acting.

visionary
28th February 2008, 10:59 PM
Officers were not from a jewish army.. Roman's would not allow the Jews to have a army of men and officers.... This shows joint effort.John 8:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons

Yuanshen
28th February 2008, 11:24 PM
But that doesn't portray anyone acting on behalf of anyone. Your theory doesn't hold.

yuan

johnd
29th February 2008, 12:33 AM
Extra-biblical sources universally portray Pilate as a cruel and calculating tyrant. This is jarringly dissonant with Pilate's behavior as reported in the Gospels. In short, at the Trial of Yeshua, Pilate was behaving totally out of character.... which means he was acting.

So the extrabiblical has more authority than the biblical?

visionary
29th February 2008, 12:35 AM
Should I have used... the term historical sources.. since we are talking about Roman culture and their rulers... would that have helped?

johnd
29th February 2008, 12:35 AM
Officers were not from a jewish army.. Roman's would not allow the Jews to have a army of men and officers.... This shows joint effort.

That's correct. The Sanhedrin had to put the Romans up to doing their dirty work for them. And T R U S T me, Visionary, I have NO love loss for the Romans or the Romanizers that followed.

johnd
29th February 2008, 12:36 AM
Should I have used... the term historical sources.. since we are talking about Roman culture and their rulers... would that have helped?

Doesn't matter what you call it, extrabiblical is still extrabiblical. Which is more authoritative to you?

johnd
29th February 2008, 12:41 AM
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.




Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.