Levels of Eternal Punishment?

[Larry]

It has been suggested in another thread that different sins carry different levels of eternal punishment.

I am under the impression that hell is hell....for eternity, and that anyone found in a sinnful state, regardless of the sin(s), will be cast in hell for eternity.

I also believe that Jesus spelled this out quite clearly. His message was clear - no matter how good you live your life, even the most 'minor' of sins, separates us from God forever. This is the reason He died on the cross. If we do not accept Him, (after hearing the Gospel), we are doomed to eternal damnation.

I will provide all manner of scripture which supports this belief. But first, I'd like to hear from you all. Tell me about your belief on this, and why.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

While all sinners go to Hell, there is probably some system of punishment. After all, if we can get different rewards in Heaven, why can they not get different punishments in Hell?

[TheBear]

While all sinners go to Hell, there is probably some system of punishment. After all, if we can get different rewards in Heaven, why can they not get different punishments in Hell?

All kinds of stuff might make sense and sound reasonable to us humans, but is it scriptural?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I believe it may be. After all, there are numerous scriptures on different rewards in Heaven.

[Larry]

I believe it may be. After all, there are numerous scriptures on different rewards in Heaven.

No one is questioning that there are different rewards in Heaven. After all, it is scriptural. :)

I'd like to see some scripture which describes the different levels of punishment in hell.

You say there 'may be' scripture. I say show them, so we can eliminate any guesswork or hunches. ;)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

In Luke 16, we see the rich man in a burning and anguish torment, while in 2 Peter 2, a gloomy, dungeon-like punishment is inacted. Also, one is referred to as Tartarus, one as Hades.

[Asar'el]

I believe Matthew 25:41 ...

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

... is a clear indication that there is one punishment in hell, everlasting fire. While the argument 'there are different rewards in heaven, there might be different punishments in hell' has some (fleshly) appeal, the same flesh would seem to reason that if the devil and his angels receive this same punishment ... you can't get more varied than this, can you ?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

And it also says that Christians will be with God forever as well. Such statements don't prove or disprove extra rewards/punishments.

[Larry]

And it also says that Christians will be with God forever as well. Such statements don't prove or disprove extra rewards/punishments.

Stay focused. We have already agreed to the fact that rewards in Heaven are scriptural. Besides, we are not talking about rewards in Heaven in this thread, are we?

Let's try to be a little more pragmatic in our approach. :)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I know, I was referring to the other post, not yours. But go back and look at my response above (#6)

[Svt4Him]

Let me post what I posted earlier.

Judas was told he would receive a worse punishment because he rejected more of the truth. Not only that, but those without the law are judged as not having the law, and the judgment is righteous. If it was a yes or no judgment, then they wouldn't need to be judged as one who didn't know the law IF the punishment was the same. God’s judgment, however, will be according to righteousness (Acts 17:31).

If someone never heard of Jesus will they be saved? If someone never heard the law, will they be judged by it? So if someone never heard of Jesus or the law, they will answer to their conscience. If we agree so far, it's good. If not, let me know, and I'll try and explain more. So now we have someone who is judged and doesn't know Jesus. If the judgment is hell or heaven, why would God tell us they are judged as not knowing the law? If they received the same judgment, whether they knew it or not makes no difference. How do you reconcile these statements?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Can I get the verse where Judas is told his punishment is worse? Thanks!

[Larry]

..And let me post what I posted earlier....

And Judas suffered a horrible physical death, but his soul will be cast in hell. You know, some sins cause much suffering and pain for the sinner in this life, but in the afterlife, hell is hell.

I'd like you to tell us what these two passages mean, if they don't mean that all sin is treated equally in the eyes of God.

"27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:27-30)

"2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:2-5)

[Larry]

If someone never heard of Jesus will they be saved? If someone never heard the law, will they be judged by it? So if someone never heard of Jesus or the law, they will answer to their conscience. If we agree so far, it's good. If not, let me know, and I'll try and explain more. So now we have someone who is judged and doesn't know Jesus. If the judgment is hell or heaven, why would God tell us they are judged as not knowing the law? If they received the same judgment, whether they knew it or not makes no difference. How do you reconcile these statements?


The OP qualifies that we are talking in the context of those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it.

"If we do not accept Him, (after hearing the Gospel), we are doomed to eternal damnation."


Let's stay on topic. ;)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

No one that is saved is any more saved then someone else. How can this have any relevance. Sure, it states sinners go to Hell, but it gives no information pertaining to what we are talking about.

[Larry]

No one that is saved is any more saved then someone else. How can this have any relevance. Sure, it states sinners go to Hell, but it gives no information pertaining to what we are talking about.

I give up.

Have fun folks. :wave:

[Svt4Him]

If someone never heard of Jesus will they be saved? If someone never heard the law, will they be judged by it? So if someone never heard of Jesus or the law, they will answer to their conscience. If we agree so far, it's good. If not, let me know, and I'll try and explain more. So now we have someone who is judged and doesn't know Jesus. If the judgment is hell or heaven, why would God tell us they are judged as not knowing the law? If they received the same judgment, whether they knew it or not makes no difference. How do you reconcile these statements?

26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So those who reject God have a worse punishment. The OT punishment lead to hell, the NT punishment leads to hell. It is not a worse punishment if they are the same.


"For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. "



Why would it have been better if both ways end up in hell? The only way this could make any sense is if they are judged more serious because they rejected more truth.

[Larry]

Check your PM's, Svt4Him.

[TheTempleTeam]

Is this in relation to Dante Alegheiri (spelling?)'s 'Dante's Inferno'? With it's 9 circles of Hell?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think Dante had no idea what he was talking about in that sense, but from my readings of scripture, I see verses that seem to indicate that there are different punishments for different people. I am new to this issue myself though.

[TheTempleTeam]

They are some strange writings, seem to be very culturally contaminated for a prophesy. For example, the innermost circle contains 'traitors'. This seems to be very similar to the judicial system in the C1500, in fact... 'High Treason' is the only crime left in the UK that would warrant a death sentence, hanging. This is a continued judicial tradition that was the centre of the majority of political/judicial life in Europe at this time.

There are rewards in Heaven though, for the lives we have led. Personally, I do not have to worry about there being levels of Hell. I'm saved through the name of Christ Jesus. Anyone God wants to make aware of the reality of Hell through me would not be interested to know there may be 9 circles in Hell... they'd be far more interested in knowing how to avoid Hell! Period! And that is through Jesus.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Amen! I agree

[Svt4Him]

Well I think it's good to know as there is a common question asked about a nice old lady and hitler spending eternity in hell, and the justice of it.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, if they can't agree that one sin brings upon death, and that those who aren't saved go to Hell, then a levels of Hell discussion is not going to do anything, save maybe confuse them.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

It is entirely just, they are both guilty of violating the whole law, as if you violate one point of it you are guilty of all it. God has offered forgiveness at no cost and to reject that is to accept your fate. There is nothing unfair about it at all.

[Svt4Him]

It is entirely just, they are both guilty of violating the whole law, as if you violate one point of it you are guilty of all it. God has offered forgiveness at no cost and to reject that is to accept your fate. There is nothing unfair about it at all.
Well, if I steal a paper clip, or I murder a small child on their way to help their sick grandmother (You have to get the emotional appeal in there :D ) then in both cases I've broken the law. I do not deny that. You lie, you murder, you have failed in keeping the law, as Moses said. I am not talking about guilt, I'm talking about punishment. I do not say it's unfair, I think it's more than fair, as God is a just judge.

I think people are confusing levels of punishment with going to hell. All hell will be bad, I don't deny that. Not only that, but once you are in hell, I think you will realize how great God is, and how many times you could have repented. It's a terrible place. But I do not believe someone who was a pastor of a church then decided to marry all the children he was teaching, someone who never heard about Jesus, satan and fallen angels, and Hitler are receiving the same punishment. Same destination, not the same negative rewards.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I don't see any scriptural support at all for that position, it seems to me to be putting man's logic into place instead of accepting what scripture says or doesn't say. Trying to explain something that isn't laid out for us is not only fallacy it seems to me to be arrogance in a manner. I am not trying to be insulting at all, but I do not think we can understand the mind of God, and that things not laid out in scripture are not meant to be understaood. Yes it would be nice to think that there are lesser punishments for lesser crimes, but that is man's way of thinking and not scriptural. Those who have never heard are a different story and don't fall under the same things we are talkign about, again it is something that we do not have explained for us clearly and to speculate is just that, speculation, and nothing more.

[Svt4Him]

Please see post 17.

who have never heard are a different story and don't fall under the same things we are talkign about Now follow this. Without Christ, you can't get to heaven. Those who haven't heard are judged as not knowing, yet they are still judged. I see no basis for saying because it makes sense it's not God.

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


So is it arrogance to think that God will render each one according to their deeds?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

But the wages of sin is death, there are no other wages listed. Even our good deeds without Christ are as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. Judged according to their works yes, but if good works are worthless without Christ then what is the wage for them? The same as the wage for sin, which is death. There is nothing in those verses that says anyone's punishments will be any different than anyone else's. It says they will be judged according to their works and not puniched according to them. The judgement is whether they are righteous or not, there is either guilty or not guilty, once that judgement is passed the punishment is all the same according to what we have given to us in the word of God.

[Svt4Him]

And the gift of God is life. There is nothing in that verse to say that there are different rewards in heaven. They are either going to heaven or hell. If you are going to heaven, you are judged. Why? To see your rewards according to your deeds. If you are going to hell you are judged. Why? To see your punishment, according to your deeds.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That is mere speculation, the judgement is whether or not you are going to heaven, it is guilty or not guilty.

[Larry]

I'll give this one more shot.

First, it doesn't matter if one takes pens from work, is a pick-pocket, a cheater a murderer or whatever. If they reject salvation after hearing the Word, they are cast into hell if they die in that state.

Also, let me give some examples of how our logic for justice doesn't really apply.

Countless people who have lived otherwise decent lives, have rejected the Gospel, and therefore will spend eternity in hell. Does this seem just and logical? Others, who have been murderers, thieves and rapists for most of their lives, have turned to Christ in the final years of their lives, and will be spending eternity in heaven. Does this seem just and logical? Then, we have the amount of time one has lived in the state of unforgivenness, verses the amount of 'penalty' time. A person living 80 years will spend more than a million years - more than a million times a million years - never ever ending time, paying for his sins. Does that seem fair and just?

The story of the Prodigal Son doesn't fit nicely into or human sense for justice. Does it? The story of the servants who staggered into work later and later into the day, but when the day was done, they all got paid the same - doesn't fit nicely into our sense of equity. Does it?

I give you these to consider one thing. Unless scripture clearly spells something out, don't rely on human logic and sense of justice to assume things.

[ydouxist]

I read about levels of punishments/rewards in

The Apocalypse of Paul. I know its not canonized

but it was extremely interesting. :o

[Larry]

"Dante's Inferno" makes for some interesting reading too. But, it's not scripture either. ;)

[ydouxist]

"Dante's Inferno" makes for some interesting reading too. But, it's not scripture either. ;)
I never said it wasn't scriptural.
It was found in 388 AD. After the canonization.
Tell me would you read anything found among the dead sea scrolls not included in the canon?

[Larry]

If it's not canonized, it's not scriptural.

[Svt4Him]

I'll give this one more shot.

First, it doesn't matter if one takes pens from work, is a pick-pocket, a cheater a murderer or whatever. If they reject salvation after hearing the Word, they are cast into hell if they die in that state.I agree. But why did you qualify it "after hearing the Word"? If they never heard the word, Jesus is the only way. They are judged as not having the law, they are judged by their conscience, but they are still judged.

Also, let me give some examples of how our logic for justice doesn't really apply.

Countless people who have lived otherwise decent lives, have rejected the Gospel, and therefore will spend eternity in hell. Does this seem just and logical? Others, who have been murderers, thieves and rapists for most of their lives, have turned to Christ in the final years of their lives, and will be spending eternity in heaven. Does this seem just and logical? Then, we have the amount of time one has lived in the state of unforgivenness, verses the amount of 'penalty' time. A person living 80 years will spend more than a million years - more than a million times a million years - never ever ending time, paying for his sins. Does that seem fair and just?This is not illogical. Justice does apply. Sin will lead to death. If you are 'good' by human standards, then you compair yourself to the law of God. The law is a mirror that shows the state of the soul. By the law, there is no 'good person', as God looks at the heart. Now this murderer has someone who's paid for their sins just as much as someone who's taken a paper clip. They have just as much opportunity to accept Jesus, and if they do, justice is served. They may not get rewarded as much in heaven, but it is still justice, as there is a punishment for their sins, and it is paid.

The story of the Prodigal Son doesn't fit nicely into or human sense for justice. Does it? The story of the servants who staggered into work later and later into the day, but when the day was done, they all got paid the same - doesn't fit nicely into our sense of equity. Does it?The prodical son doesn't fit at all. It is a grace story, a story of God's love, it is not a justice story. And the servants didn't stagger into work late, they were told if they did this, this is their payment. They got what they were told. Sense of equity and sense of justice are two different things.

I give you these to consider one thing. Unless scripture clearly spells something out, don't rely on human logic and sense of justice to assume things.I think it's pretty clear. And our sense of justice is God given.

If Scripture doesn't clearly spell something out, then study to show yourself approved, don't just ignore it. God gives people minds for a reason. God's ways are our ways, we have the mind of Christ. I'm not saying we will ever understand all of God, but as a new creation, God reveals secrets to us. To do any hermeneutics, one is required to go deeper into subjects that are not clear, and use God given skills to search out the buried treasure. God is just, He tells us that He is just. If He didn't want us to understand His justice, why tell us?

[Larry]

Okay. It looks like we're back at it again.

I agree. But why did you qualify it "after hearing the Word"? If they never heard the word, Jesus is the only way. They are judged as not having the law, they are judged by their conscience, but they are still judged.

The OP. Read the OP again. Discussion of people not having heard the word is a discussion in and of itself. You keep going back to this, and I keep reminding you that it is off topic in this thread. If you want to start a thread on that topic, fine. But not here. Okay?

[Svt4Him]

I would think in a topic about the levels of hell, that the issue is the levels of hell. Unless there is some reason the levels of hell for someone who's heard the word is different than the levels of hell for someone who hasn't. Then you'll have to determine what is meant by heard. If someone heard it while walking by a park, or someone who use to preach it every week. So perhaps you'd like to quantify what specific group, otherwise it's hard not to bring in those who have and those who haven't heard the word.

This seems to be an issue, and I'm not really sure why. But how about I when I say those who haven't heard the word, I am talking about those who heard it but never understood it, verses those who've studied it. If that will somehow fit whatever paradigm I'm missing, then pretend that's what I mean.

[Larry]

I would think in a topic about the levels of hell, that the issue is the levels of hell. Unless there is some reason the levels of hell for someone who's heard the word is different than the levels of hell for someone who hasn't. Then you'll have to determine what is meant by heard. If someone heard it while walking by a park, or someone who use to preach it every week. So perhaps you'd like to quantify what specific group, otherwise it's hard not to bring in those who have and those who haven't heard the word.

This seems to be an issue, and I'm not really sure why. But how about I when I say those who haven't heard the word, I am talking about those who heard it but never understood it, verses those who've studied it. If that will somehow fit whatever paradigm I'm missing, then pretend that's what I mean.



As far as I'm concerned, the only discussion point of those never hearing or understanding the word, would be whether they go to heaven or hell. Please stop using this as a red herring to suggest different levels of hell.

Stop trying to hijack this thread. I'll be reporting any further posts that are off-topic.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The problem here is that you are quite frankly esposuing something that is not found in scripture, you are applying man's logic, and adding to scripture, that is not exegetics, hermeneutics , isogoics, or any other study of scripture. It is not scripture at all. Unlike Larry I don't see what the difference is in those who have herad and those who haven't, the judgement is guilty or not guilty. I can understand where he is coming from though on this, the topic had nothing to do with those who have not heard. There is absolutely no scripture to back this assertion off different levels of punishment at all. The thing is very simple if you break one point of the law you are guilty of breaking all the points:

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

SO the nice little old lady who gossiped occasionally and the axe murderer are both guilty of break every single poiint in the Law in God's sight, that is without Christ. The judgement is guitly or innocent and only through Christ's blood are we innocent in the sight of God. All punishment is for the same offense, breaking every single point of the Law, therefore there are no different levels of punishment since everyone is guilty of the same exact thing.

[Svt4Him]

I would have thought it was about the levels of eternal punishment, but I see I am wrong. I didn't realize we were talking about a homogeneous group of people. So I guess then that if you have a group of people who've heard the same word, understood it the same way, rejected it, committed the same sins, would receive the same judgment. I agree.


The problem here is that you are quite frankly esposuing something that is not found in scripture, you are applying man's logic, and adding to scripture, that is not exegetics, hermeneutics , isogoics, or any other study of scripture. It is not scripture at all. Unlike Larry I don't see what the difference is in those who have herad and those who haven't, the judgement is guilty or not guilty. I can understand where he is coming from though on this, the topic had nothing to do with those who have not heard. There is absolutely no scripture to back this assertion off different levels of punishment at all. The thing is very simple if you break one point of the law you are guilty of breaking all the points:

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

SO the nice little old lady who gossiped occasionally and the axe murderer are both guilty of break every single poiint in the Law in God's sight, that is without Christ. The judgement is guitly or innocent and only through Christ's blood are we innocent in the sight of God. All punishment is for the same offense, breaking every single point of the Law, therefore there are no different levels of punishment since everyone is guilty of the same exact thing.
So you've actually looked at these verses and done "exegetics, hermeneutics , isogoics, or any other study of scripture" or have you written it off using your logic? Not trying to be snarky, it's a honest question. If I could ask it in any nice way I would. I'm not really looking for an answer though, just trying to get you thinking. ;)

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Yes I have studied these verses, I have studied them back to the Greek root words even. I rarely speak on scripture I have not studied. That's not arrogance, simply a desire not to speak on issues I have no understanding on. There are no levels, not for anyone, you are eigher guilty or not guilty, it is the same for everyone, regardless of them having heard the Gospel. I can back this up if you like, but it is late and there is a lot of crrss referencing scripture to do in order to properly prove the point.

[Ceris]

Well, I don't really know which view is correct, but just for the sake of arguement, here is a passage for the "level of hells" side. I got this from Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith". One chapter he talks about deals with hell. Here is the passage.

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miralces had been performed, because the did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it wil be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (Matthew 11:20-24)

[Svt4Him]

Well, I don't really know which view is correct, but just for the sake of arguement, here is a passage for the "level of hells" side. I got this from Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith". One chapter he talks about deals with hell. Here is the passage.

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miralces had been performed, because the did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it wil be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (Matthew 11:20-24)
That too is an excellent verse, and one that I forgot to add. Sodom had no righteous people in it, and Capernaum obviously didn't either. Both are going 'down to the depths', yet it will be more bearable for one then the other. There is only one way this can make sense. Now notice Jeus said "will be" as He is talking about the final judgment.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That too is an excellent verse, and one that I forgot to add. Sodom had no righteous people in it, and Capernaum obviously didn't either. Both are going 'down to the depths', yet it will be more bearable for one then the other. There is only one way this can make sense. Now notice Jeus said "will be" as He is talking about the final judgment.

Here is where you add man's logic again, the scripture doesn't state this and you are adding it based on man's logic. And to top it off, he speaks only of the day of judgement, it does not say in any shape form or fashion that it will be more bearable for enternity, only on the day of judgement, it does not reference eternity at all. It is a stretch to make it cover the eternal punshment of Hell.

[Svt4Him]

Here is where you add man's logic again, the scripture doesn't state this and you are adding it based on man's logic. And to top it off, he speaks only of the day of judgement, it does not say in any shape form or fashion that it will be more bearable for enternity, only on the day of judgement, it does not reference eternity at all. It is a stretch to make it cover the eternal punshment of Hell.
How many righteous people "will go down to the depths"

That is adding nothing. I said there were no righteous people, you can say there are no saved people, but they will do down to the depths. And there is nothing wrong with logic. When you go study the Greek, you don't turn off your logic, you use it.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

It refers to the cities themselves, it does not address the entirety of their occupants, Lot was saved from Soddom, as was his family. We do not have a complete history of these citites mentioned and it is simply conjecture to try and prove otherwise. I have not turned off logic, I just don't apply my personal, human, and fallible sense of justice to scripture. And that passage would best be studied in Aramaic not Greek ;)

[Svt4Him]

It refers to the cities themselves, it does not address the entirety of their occupants
Ok, let's go down this road. Sodom was an unrighteous city. Why?

But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.

And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, [/url]21I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. (qvb://0/anchor/21)12And when you go into a household, greet it. 13If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. (qvb://0/anchor/13)14And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (qvb://0/anchor/15)5and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; (qvb://0/anchor/6)7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— (qvb://0/anchor/8)9then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, [url="qvb://0/anchor/11"] (qvb://0/anchor/10)11whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

You cannot separate the city from the people. And it may be Aramaic, but you have to understand idioms and colloquialisms as well.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You are still missing the simple fac that it says "the day of judgement" and NOT enternity. We can keep going on this passage but it refering to the judgement itself, and not the punishement once judgement has been passed.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, how about this. Revelation 21:

25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

This is talking about Heaven of course, one eternal day. If Hell is then seperation from God, then it is probably one eternal night (where else will one get light?) This being said, how is judgement day not the last day, the eternal day? Won't the old heavens and earth pass away when Jesus judges? This is the same passing away finished when the eternal day is "eternified"

[Svt4Him]

You are still missing the simple fac that it says "the day of judgement" and NOT enternity. We can keep going on this passage but it refering to the judgement itself, and not the punishement once judgement has been passed.
Nope, not missing it. The day of judgment is the day God give out what is owed, as said He judges according to our acts. If it was a matter of 'You pass, You fail' then why is one fail going to be worse than another? If it was just one 'day' in the realm of eternity, why would Jesus draw their attention to this? 'On this 'one day' it will be worse, that's the day of judgement. You will be judged the same in the end, but it will be worse.' How can it be worse?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

See you are equating judgement with punishment, and they are not the same things. Judgement, even in the Greek, was just that, the act of judging, it does not refer to metering out punishment.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

They are different acts, but seem to be on the same eternal day.

[Svt4Him]

The day of judgment (τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῆς κρίσεως)



Lit., thedayofjudgment. The exact phrase occurs here only. Ἡμέρᾳ κρίσεως dayofjudgment, without the articles, is found Matthew 10:15 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2010:15); 11:22 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2011:22), 24 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2011:24); 12:36 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2012:36); 2 Peter 2:9 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2061%202:9); 3:7 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2061%203:7). The day is called thegreatdayoftheirwrath (Revelation 6:17 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2066%206:17)); thedayofwrathandofrevelationoftherighteousjudgementofGod (Romans 2:5 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2045%202:5)); thedayofvisitation (1 Peter 2:12 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2060%202:12)); thelastday (John 6:39 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2043%206:39), 40 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2043%206:40), 44 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2043%206:44), 54 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2043%206:54)); thatday (Matthew 7:22 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%207:22); Luke 6:23 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2042%206:23); 10:12 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2042%2010:12)). Thejudgment is found Matthew 12:41 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2012:41), 42 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2040%2012:42); Luke 10:14 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2042%2010:14); 11:31 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2042%2011:31), 32 (http://about<b></b>:blanksteplinkto4%2042%2011:32).

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

[neocon]

..................The story of the Prodigal Son doesn't fit nicely into or human sense for justice. Does it? The story of the servants who staggered into work later and later into the day, but when the day was done, they all got paid the same - doesn't fit nicely into our sense of equity. Does it?.....................



Observe that always in Scripture there is more Mercy than we would show if we had the Power.

[Paula]

No one is questioning that there are different rewards in Heaven. After all, it is scriptural. :)

I'd like to see some scripture which describes the different levels of punishment in hell.

You say there 'may be' scripture. I say show them, so we can eliminate any guesswork or hunches. ;)
Although the Bible does not specifically say so, there are indications that there might be different levels of punishment in Hell. In Revelation 20:11-15, the people are judged “according to what they had done as recorded in the books” (Rev 20:12). All the people at this judgment, though, are thrown into the lake of fire (20:13-15). So, perhaps, the purpose of the judgment is to determine how severe the punishment in Hell. Whatever the case, being thrown into a slightly less hot portion of the lake of fire is not consolation to those who are still doomed for eternity.

The Bible also tells us that in Hell not all will be judged alike. Some inmates of Hell would be punished more severely than others, depending on the seriousness of their crimes. This is implied in Luke 12:47-48 and Mark 12:40:

Jesus made it clear that there will be degrees of judgment in Hell. He said that the one "who knew his master's will and did not ... act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few" (Lk. 12:47-48).

Also see Mark 12:40: 40They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."

But though not all will be judged equally, all will be judged with certainty. Exodus 34:7 tells us that though the Lord is "compassionate and gracious, ... yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished ... "

Source: William Crockett, "Four views on Hell," (1992).

[<><]

Now let's get a sample of what Jesus really taught on the subject of hell. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell ..." Mark 9:43. These words of the Master prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. In Matthew 5:30 He spoke of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body.

In contrast to the doctrine of Christ, modern pulpits resound with dramatic portrayals of imaginary souls leaving the body at death--souls that have neither substance nor shape. This view, popular though it may be, is totally contrary to what Jesus taught. Mark it well, for the great Master Teacher spelled it out repeatedly in the gospels--those who are cast into the fire of hell will go there with hands, feet, eyes, and all the physical features of the body. They will not go in some ethereal state of formless spirit or soul.

Now we are prepared to examine four great facts from the Bible which will illuminate most of the questions which have been asked about the fate of the wicked.

Punishment After the Judgment

The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.

Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-43.

No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.

If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28 29

How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved--"in the graves."

If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.

Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"--every person--will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2.

Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.

Now we come to the second great fact about hell: None of the unsaved will be cast into hell-fire until after the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Although we have already seen substantial evidence on this point, let's look even more. Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21: 8.

[<><]

No Second Death Before the Resurrection

Here the lost are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected--they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."

Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment--it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.

Does the Bible tell us how the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire? Yes, it does. John describes the dramatic events that take place at the close of the millennium. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:7-9.

Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5.

The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.

[<><]

Location of Hell

The Bible clearly asserts that this fire devours the wicked right here on "the breadth of the earth." Every Bible writer who speaks on the subject of hell adds new insight on this second death of the wicked. Peter states: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7. Then he goes on to describe the day of the Lord which will melt the very elements with fervent heat.

The language of Peter is very explicit about the place of punishment for the ungodly. He says this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. Isaiah declared, "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch." Isaiah 34:8, 9.

The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone. Isaiah says this is God's vengeance and "recompense" at the end of the controversy.

David adds to the testimony with these words, "Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire, and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6. Notice that he uses almost the same words as John and Peter in describing the fate of the wicked. All agree as to the place of the punishment (the earth) and the agent of punishment (fire).

This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment. But this also raises some other very interesting questions about the fate of the lost. One of the most intriguing and puzzling has to do with the length of punishment. HOW long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire?

No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty--the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.

[<><]

See my three consecutive posts on the previous page

Hell-Fire Not Endless

There are several reasons for being so sure on this point. First of all, this earth is also declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.

The wicked cannot continue to live in this planet because it has been specifically promised, in its entirety, to Abraham's spiritual seed (Romans 4:13). After being purged of all the curse of sin, it will revert to the first dominion, and to God's original plan for it. It will be finally what God intended it to be--a perfect home for a perfect people.

In the second place, the wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they have never trusted Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him? They surely will perish. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. Please don't miss the pointed simplicity of these verses. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death--eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life--eternal life.

But there is only one way to get life without end, and that is through faith in Jesus. John describes it this way: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12. Let me ask you a question: Do those wicked ones in the lake of fire have the Son of God? Of course not. Then how could they have life? John says, "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. Will those murderers in hell-fire continue to have life for eternity? Never.

It would be the rankest heresy to believe that eternal life could be obtained from some other source than Jesus. Where would the wicked get it? Paul declares that Jesus Christ "hash brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:10. Inspiration reveals no other source of immortality except through the gospel of Christ. Where is a text in the Bible which describes the conferring of immortality upon the wicked? You can read often about the righteous receiving it, but never the unbeliever.

Paul said, "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

This text speaks of a certain point in time when the righteous will be instantly changed into immortal beings. That time is still future. It occurs when Jesus returns, at the last trumpet sound, when the resurrection takes place. Nowhere in the Bible do we read of the wicked being changed in this manner. And it is precisely because they never receive this gift of eternal life that they are unable to keep living in the lake of fire.

It is inconceivable and unreasonable to fabricate such an event. It is contrary to the Bible and repugnant to the senses. Ezekiel declared, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Ezekiel 18:4. No matter what we understand a soul to be, let's accept the simple Bible fact that it can die and will die as a result of sin.

If the wicked live eternally in the fire, then they have the same thing as the righteous except in a different place. Who could give them eternal life but Christ? John 3:16 settles this issue so clearly and simply. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son will perish. They will die. They will die the second death--an eternal death from which they will never be raised. That death will never end. It is an endless, eternal punishment, because it is an endless, eternal death.

[Asar'el]

Did you not quote part of Mark 9:43 to start with ?

Why not quote it all ? And 9:44 ...

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Of course, the next several verses say similar things...
I think it's pretty clear - the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not. And I think it's much clearer in a few verses than your several posts ...

[Svt4Him]

Again that is saying nothing that I would disagree with. But to use that, you have to realize it's an idiom, otherwise I'd have to ask how many hands you have.

[Asar'el]

Again that is saying nothing that I would disagree with. But to use that, you have to realize it's an idiom, otherwise I'd have to ask how many hands you have.
I am not sure which 'that' you are referring to... or what you are suggesting is an idiom... my post, or another?

[<><]

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Of course, the next several verses say similar things...
I think it's pretty clear - the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not. And I think it's much clearer in a few verses than your several posts ...
Mark 9:48 is taken from Isa 66:24. In that chapter the future salvation of Jerusalem as well as the judgment on unbelievers are depicted. Interestingly enough v. 24 talks about corpses or dead bodies which are affected by the worm and the fire. These are not living beings anymore. The word "worm" is found in the singular and not in the plural. The fire is unquenchable in the sense that nobody can quench it until it has done its work. In Jer 17:27 the destruction of Jerusalem is announced which took place when the Babylonians conquered the city .The fire could not be quenched. But today it does not burn any longer. It burned until it had consumed what can be consumed. After that it was extinguished.


Thus, neither the fire nor the worm are eternal. The text does not talk about a soul either, separated from the body. If such a soul would exist, it would not be affected by worm or fire anyway. On the other hand, the worm cannot be equated with the disembodied soul of humans. The worm is "their worm", namely those who stood in opposition to God and have now passed away. It is so to speak not an individual worm. The worm is furthermore so closely related to fire that it must be regarded as a means of destruction similar to the fire. Nowhere in the Bible is a worm identified with the soul. Living human beings can be compared to worms (Ps 22:6 and Job 25:6). However, when they die they become food for the worms, as Isaiah stresses in Isa 14:ll. In other words, within the Book of Isaiah "worm" is a term that relates to judgment. It is not a human part that lives on.


Mark 9:48 takes this figure of speech from Isaiah, which points to the unavoidable destruction and applies it to those who do not live according to the will of God. That it is indeed a figure of speech is obvious, since the worm exists in conjunction with fire, which is not possible. Jesus connects the worm and the fire to the hell, gehenna. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew word Hinnom, designating the valley south of Jerusalem (see Jer 7:32-34) in which according to tradition trash and even corpses were burnt. The lake of fire in Rev 20 seems to point to the same reality. The unbelievers are devoured by fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:9,10,15). By using this imagery Jesus warns against the consequences of not following him and against the final judgment which will end with the complete annihilation of all evil and all evil ones.


The Bible teaches that humans are mortal. According to 1Tim 6:14-16 God alone is immortal. He bestows immortality as a gift on those who experience the first resurrection (1 Cor 15:51-54). Eternal life is always dependent on Christ and not attainable in separation from him (Rom 6:23; John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:11, 12), not even in hell. The term "soul" normally stands for human beings. The Bible clearly teaches that the soul can and will die (Eze 18:4; James 5:20; Rev 20:4; Ps 89:48; Job 36: 14; Lev 19:8; 21: 1, 11. These texts contain the term "soul."

[Asar'el]

Mark 9:48 is taken from Isa 66:24. In that chapter the future salvation of Jerusalem as well as the judgment on unbelievers are depicted. Interestingly enough v. 24 talks about corpses or dead bodies which are affected by the worm and the fire. These are not living beings anymore. The word "worm" is found in the singular and not in the plural. The fire is unquenchable in the sense that nobody can quench it until it has done its work. In Jer 17:27 the destruction of Jerusalem is announced which took place when the Babylonians conquered the city .The fire could not be quenched. But today it does not burn any longer. It burned until it had consumed what can be consumed. After that it was extinguished.


Thus, neither the fire nor the worm are eternal. The text does not talk about a soul either, separated from the body. If such a soul would exist, it would not be affected by worm or fire anyway. On the other hand, the worm cannot be equated with the disembodied soul of humans. The worm is "their worm", namely those who stood in opposition to God and have now passed away. It is so to speak not an individual worm. The worm is furthermore so closely related to fire that it must be regarded as a means of destruction similar to the fire. Nowhere in the Bible is a worm identified with the soul. Living human beings can be compared to worms (Ps 22:6 and Job 25:6). However, when they die they become food for the worms, as Isaiah stresses in Isa 14:ll. In other words, within the Book of Isaiah "worm" is a term that relates to judgment. It is not a human part that lives on.


Mark 9:48 takes this figure of speech from Isaiah, which points to the unavoidable destruction and applies it to those who do not live according to the will of God. That it is indeed a figure of speech is obvious, since the worm exists in conjunction with fire, which is not possible. Jesus connects the worm and the fire to the hell, gehenna. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew word Hinnom, designating the valley south of Jerusalem (see Jer 7:32-34) in which according to tradition trash and even corpses were burnt. The lake of fire in Rev 20 seems to point to the same reality. The unbelievers are devoured by fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:9,10,15). By using this imagery Jesus warns against the consequences of not following him and against the final judgment which will end with the complete annihilation of all evil and all evil ones.


The Bible teaches that humans are mortal. According to 1Tim 6:14-16 God alone is immortal. He bestows immortality as a gift on those who experience the first resurrection (1 Cor 15:51-54). Eternal life is always dependent on Christ and not attainable in separation from him (Rom 6:23; John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:11, 12), not even in hell. The term "soul" normally stands for human beings. The Bible clearly teaches that the soul can and will die (Eze 18:4; James 5:20; Rev 20:4; Ps 89:48; Job 36: 14; Lev 19:8; 21: 1, 11. These texts contain the term "soul."

Your explanation (though again lengthy) is appreciated, but not agreed with.

Isaiah 66:22 makes the context

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Clearly NOT the destruction of Jerusalem which you seem to associate with it, but the end time. And you taking Mark 9

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

and saying that it is NOT saying 'the fire that never shall be quenched... and the fire is not quenched' ... but instead to mean it will be quenched when it has done its work ... well...

Further, your explanation regarding immortality is not satisfactory:

1 Timothy 6:16, Who only hath immortality,

surely means what it say ... not, as you would have it, 'Who alone is immortal ...'

In short, I cannot agree with your opinion without (imho) doing great injustice to the Scripture.

Revelation says:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I find no reason to accept your explanation that that lake is not what Jesus meant when He said into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Seems clear to me.

[Larry]

Now let's get a sample of what Jesus really taught on the subject of hell. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell ..." Mark 9:43. These words of the Master prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. In Matthew 5:30 He spoke of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body.

In contrast to the doctrine of Christ, modern pulpits resound with dramatic portrayals of imaginary souls leaving the body at death--souls that have neither substance nor shape. This view, popular though it may be, is totally contrary to what Jesus taught. Mark it well, for the great Master Teacher spelled it out repeatedly in the gospels--those who are cast into the fire of hell will go there with hands, feet, eyes, and all the physical features of the body. They will not go in some ethereal state of formless spirit or soul.

Now we are prepared to examine four great facts from the Bible which will illuminate most of the questions which have been asked about the fate of the wicked.

Punishment After the Judgment

The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.

Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-43.

No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.

If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28 29

How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved--"in the graves."

If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.

Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"--every person--will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2.

Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.

Now we come to the second great fact about hell: None of the unsaved will be cast into hell-fire until after the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Although we have already seen substantial evidence on this point, let's look even more. Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21: 8.

I don't disagree with this or your other 'cut and paste' posts, but they are all off-topic. The OP topic addresses the possibility of different levels of eternal punishment.

The OP topic is not about the time of judgement, nor is it about the time of punishment. Those are off-topic in this thread.

BTW, what site did you use to cut and paste from? ;)

[Larry]

BTW, this is a discussion board, not a cut and paste dumping grounds. We like to interact with each other, not just toss third party words back and forth. :)

[<><]

What I have posted is relevant. If we don't know when are where the punishment is to be meted out, we will not understand the "degrees of punishment."

The keenness of the perception of the loss of eternal life among the unsaved will affect the degrees of punishment. All are judged according to their works. The duration of the punishment will vary accordingly. However, all of the unsaved end in an eternal death of which there is no resurrection.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

It lasts forever for all if I'm not mistaken

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

What I have posted is relevant. If we don't know when are where the punishment is to be meted out, we will not understand the "degrees of punishment."

The keenness of the perception of the loss of eternal life among the unsaved will affect the degrees of punishment. All are judged according to their works. The duration of the punishment will vary accordingly. However, all of the unsaved end in an eternal death of which there is no resurrection.

Umm no, there is not an end to punishment:

Revelation 14:9-11

The smoke from their torment rises for how long?

[TheTempleTeam]

But isn't Satan doomed to the pit? So if Satan isn't around, along with the Anti-Christ who'll be thrown in right behind him... who'll be torturing the residents of Hell?

[<><]

Umm no, there is not an end to punishment:


• Will there come a day of destruction for the wicked?


"That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30.
• How will they be destroyed?
"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9.

• What will happen to evildoers?
"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth." Psalms 37:9.

• What will happen to the wicked?
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

• Will the wicked go on living throughout eternity?
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20.

• So the wicked will be destroyed and not burn forever?
"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 37:38.

• But doesn't "cut off" only mean they will be separated from God?
"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2.

• So then this must mean that the wicked will be no more or consumed?
"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 104:35.

• So there will be a final destruction of the wicked, they will not burn in hell for eternity?
"The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalms 145:20.

• What method will God use to destroy the wicked?
"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.

• But I thought the soul never dies?
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

• Will the wicked be burned up completely?
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18.

• So they will cease to exist?
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19.

• How does God feel about the final destruction of the wicked?
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

• So after the destruction of the wicked, sin will never rise up again?
"What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry." Nahum 1:9-10.

• How complete will the final destruction of the wicked be?
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

• Does the New Testament talk about the destruction of the wicked?
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

• Does the New Testament speak about the soul dying?
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

• When will all of this take place?
"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." Matthew 13:40.

• Matthew 25:41 speaks of "everlasting fire" for the wicked. Does it go out?
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41.?
NOTE:Yes, according to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly."
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7.
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6.
These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes.
"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:3.
The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

• Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment"?
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46.
NOTE: Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting. Nowhere in Scripture will you find that the wicked will receive eternal life, only the righteous.

• What will happen to the saved?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

• What are the wages of sin according to the book of Romans?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23.

• What will happen to the devil, will he be destroyed also?
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14.

• Why is it impossible for sinners to be in the presence of God?
"For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29.

• What example does the Bible use to show that God will destroy the wicked by fire?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" 2 Peter 2:6.

• Where will this fire occur which destroys the wicked?
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

• Doesn't God want us to repent?
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

• What will happen to the whole earth?
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

• If we miss out on the first resurrection, will we have a "second chance"?
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:6.

• Where will the fire come from?
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9.

• What is the second death?
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14.

• Are there any more verses that talk about the second death?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

• What about the verse in Revelation 20:10 where it talks about the devil, the beast and false prophet being tormented for ever and ever. Doesn't that show that hell fire is forever or eternal?
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10. NOTE: The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended.* It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights."
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." Jonah 2:6. (See also Jonah 1:17.)
In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think you have the right scriptures, but are illogically explainingaway the truth. They will be tormented in hell forever. Since that is the last day, and since time ceases to exist, it must be forever.

[<><]

I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves.
You can explain away, "never shalt thou be any more."

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I agree

[<><]

whether interpreted to mean Satan, literal king of Tyre, or unsaved man...

Ezekiel 28:18-19, KJV
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

NIV - "you ...will be no more."
NASB - "you will cease to be forever."
AMP - "you ...shall never return to being."

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Cease to live and be alive yes, but not to exist. Notice how the second death is just like the first, except there is no resurrection for them. It will simply be a death to "live" with forever.

[Larry]

Just to qualify the OP - The focal point is those who will not be spending eternity in Heaven. And again, this has nothing to do with what time they will be judged, or what time they will start their punishment.

IOW, after their judgement and after their punishment begins, (for those who will not be spending eternity in Heaven), are there different levels of punishment?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Definately

[Lady_Firehawk]

[major thread backtrack] Dante's Inferno was actually written as somewhat of a political statement... he used the Inferno as a platform to condemn some people he REALLY disliked. But since most people don't know much about Italian politics during his time, we somewhat lose that meaning and look at the more literal side of it. On the flip side, he used Paradiso to glorify those he agreed with politically... anyhoo, here's a link (http://www.novelguide.com/divinecomedy/themeanalysis.html) for your perusal-- slightly off-topic but still interesting, seeing as someone had mentioned Dante before. :)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

A lot of works are written for personal gain, so we must always discern.