How do we keep this commandment?

[Lulav]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

[Yuanshen]

Doesn't it say how to kill a witch?
For those insane enough to want to do it, that is.
Jesus would not have done it. The lawyers wanted him to kill people, but he refused because it was not his law. It was theirs. It is not the law of righteous people, either. Only evil people would want to obey that commandment and kill others!

yuan

[stone]

Saul had this same question, followed by them all being removed from Israel. ;)

-with the exception of the one he went to...


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

[Lulav]

Doesn't it say how to kill a witch?
For those insane enough to want to do it, that is.
Jesus would not have done it. The lawyers wanted him to kill people, but he refused because it was not his law. It was theirs. It is not the law of righteous people, either. Only evil people would want to obey that commandment and kill others!

yuan Are you saying that G-d commanded to do evil?:scratch:

What lawyers wanted Yeshua to kill people? :confused:

[Steve Petersen]

According to Maimonides, this rule only applies when there is a Temple and only in the Land of Israel. The rule applies to men and women.

[Yuanshen]

God has never wanted anyone to be killed.

It is human beings that want God to kill their enemy. but he will not do so. Look in Bible. You will see many lawyers wanting to kill Jesus and also want him to kill others.

Murderers like devil.

Yuan

[Steve Petersen]

God has never wanted anyone to be killed.

It is human beings that want God to kill their enemy. but he will not do so. Look in Bible. You will see many lawyers wanting to kill Jesus and also want him to kill others.

Murderers like devil.

Yuan

God instructed Israel to put people to death for many different reasons. Do you dismiss these commandments God gave to Israel?

Murder is not the same as killing. Murder is taking the life of somone who is not liable to the death penalty.

Killing is another matter. God commanded Israel to kill many different peoples when Israel moved into the land.

[Gwenyfur]

Never confuse G-d's righteous and perfect judgements with mankinds unclean passion for murder.

[Lulav]

God instructed Israel to put people to death for many different reasons. Do you dismiss these commandments God gave to Israel?

Murder is not the same as killing. Murder is taking the life of somone who is not liable to the death penalty.

Killing is another matter. God commanded Israel to kill many different peoples when Israel moved into the land. Yes, exactly.

Yuan, have you ever read the Torah or the books of Joshua?

[Lulav]

According to Maimonides, this rule only applies when there is a Temple and only in the Land of Israel. The rule applies to men and women.So in the Diaspora they are allowed to remain among the people, in the congregation, to lead others to corruption?

Do you have a passage from Mishneh Torah on this Steve?

[christinepro]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

An unrepentant witch could be dead to us. We don't have to associate with her.

[Kris10leigh]

I don't have an aswer and certainly can't site scripture, but I wanted to add the discussion if I may. What do you suppose the definition of a "witch" would be? Certainly it isn't one who practices Wicca.

[Lulav]

An unrepentant witch could be dead to us. We don't have to associate with her.

What about allowing them among you? Was the command not given to protect Israel from these evil influences?

[LadyGarnetRose]

According to Maimonides, this rule only applies when there is a Temple and only in the Land of Israel. The rule applies to men and women.

Also, it only applies to a Jew who has taken up the mantle to be a Jew.

I don't have an aswer and certainly can't site scripture, but I wanted to add the discussion if I may. What do you suppose the definition of a "witch" would be? Certainly it isn't one who practices Wicca.

Well it can and it can't. Wicca is a "modern" religion no matter what some who call themselves that say. It is a direct Child religion from the OTO, and there is not a shred of evidence it existed before the 1920's. 1952 is a common date for the complete invention of the religion.

[Kris10leigh]

Well it can and it can't. Wicca is a "modern" religion no matter what some who call themselves that say. It is a direct Child religion from the OTO, and there is not a shred of evidence it existed before the 1920's. 1952 is a common date for the complete invention of the religion.

If that's true, and I haven't researched that one little bit, then Wiccan could not have been part of the Biblical reference to "witches".

Now I'm curious. :confused: I'm going to go google. ;)

[LadyGarnetRose]

If that's true, and I haven't researched that one little bit, then Wiccan could not have been part of the Biblical reference to "witches".

Now I'm curious. :confused: I'm going to go google. ;)
It's true :)

[Kris10leigh]

^_^
I looked briefly and found that Wicca is "modern religion" and that it probably got it's mass movement start in the 1950's. Did not know that! That's why I love message boards.

[Henaynei]

Doesn't it say how to kill a witch?
For those insane enough to want to do it, that is.
Jesus would not have done it. The lawyers wanted him to kill people, but he refused because it was not his law. It was theirs. It is not the law of righteous people, either. Only evil people would want to obey that commandment and kill others!

yuanyou either know *very* little of scripture or you deliberately misquote it for your own reasons.....

the only time anyone brought someone to Yeshua with the possibility of the supposition in your reference was the woman caught in adultery - and stoning a woman caught in adultery IS G-d's law, NOT man's ....
Leviticus (Vayikra) 20:10-21 10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, that is, with the wife of a fellow countryman, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 11 The man who goes to bed with his father's wife has disgraced his father sexually, and both of them must be put to death; their blood is on them. there is much more.... the reason Yeshua did not consent to her death is because the accusers violated the Torah in the way they brought accusation:1) no one who actually caught her stepped forward to give testimony2) the man with whom she was supposedly caught was not also brought for judgment
thus when Yeshua said "let him without sin cast the first stone" they each and everyone knew that they had brought a false accusation, thus they were each standing there guilty...

all throughout Torah G-d commands the death penalty for numerous sins ... so you are saying that only evil people obey G-d...:sigh: AND that G-d is unrighteous

[Henaynei]

Ex 22:18 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+22:18&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Thou shalt not suffer a witch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03784&version=kjv) to live (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02421&version=kjv).

De 18:10 & 11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Deuteronomy+18%3A10-11&section=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=de&NavGo=18&NavCurrentChapter=18) There shall not be found (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04672&version=kjv) among you any one that maketh his son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01121&version=kjv) or his daughter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01323&version=kjv) to pass (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05674&version=kjv) through the fire, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0784&version=kjv) or that useth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07080&version=kjv) divination, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07081&version=kjv) or an observer of times (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06049&version=kjv), or an enchanter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05172&version=kjv), or a witch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03784&version=kjv), or a charmer (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02266&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02267&version=kjv), or a consulter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07592&version=kjv) with familiar spirits, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0178&version=kjv) or a wizard, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03049&version=kjv) or a necromancer (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01875&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=04191&version=kjv)

Strong's Number: 03784

Original Word @Xk

Word Origina primitive root

Transliterated Word Kashaph

Phonetic Spelling kaw-shaf' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3784h)

Parts of Speech Verb


Definition

(Piel) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft
sorcerer, sorceress (participle)
King James Word Usage - Total: 6
sorcerers 3, witch 2, witchcraft 1
KJV Verse Count
Exodus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=ex&number=03784&count=2&version=kjv)2
Deuteronomy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=de&number=03784&count=1&version=kjv)1
2 Chronicles (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=2ch&number=03784&count=1&version=kjv)1
Daniel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=da&number=03784&count=1&version=kjv)1
Malachi (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=mal&number=03784&count=1&version=kjv)1
Total6

Strong's Number: 03785
Original Word @Xk

Word Origin from (03784 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=3784&version=kjv))

Transliterated Word Kesheph

Phonetic Spelling keh'-shef http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3785h)

Parts of Speech Noun Masculine

Definition


sorcery, witchcraftKing James Word Usage - Total: 6
witchcraft 4, sorcery 2
KJV Verse Count
2 Kings (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=2ki&number=03785&count=1&version=kjv)1
Isaiah (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=isa&number=03785&count=2&version=kjv)2
Micah (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=mic&number=03785&count=1&version=kjv)1
Nahum (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/freqdisp.cgi?book=na&number=03785&count=1&version=kjv)1
Total5

[jgonz]

The Wiccans *I* know, DO spellcast and do other types of "magik" so they are Definately part of the "witch" description in the Torah. Anyone who does Any variety of sorcery or divination would be a witch.

In this day & age I would assume that we need to live under the law of the land... and leave the judgement to G-d. There is always the possibility that the witch may repent and turn to the L-rd (and I've read many accounts of this happening). On the other hand, if she/he does Not get saved before dying, then she/he would be subject to G-d's eternal judgment.

[Henaynei]

I agree that we must be subject to the laws of the land as long as they do not force us to transgress any of the negative commandments.... and leave judgment over the violated positive commandments to the government and to G-d - until Messiah Returns :clap:

[visionary]

I don't have an aswer and certainly can't site scripture, but I wanted to add the discussion if I may. What do you suppose the definition of a "witch" would be? Certainly it isn't one who practices Wicca.Wicca... does it not have witches?

"We should educate people that 'Witch' is not evil but ancient and positive. The first time I called myself a 'Witch' was the most magical moment of my life." Margot Adler. Margot Adler, "Drawing Down The Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today," Penguin Books, (1997), Page. 461All the power and glory go to self. God never intended that to happen.

[Kris10leigh]

Visionary, I agree. But Wiccans who practice Wicca in the true spirit of the religion aren't harming anyone and I don't personally think God would intend for them to be put to death. They're worshipping nature. As LadyGarnet pointed out, it wasn't even a religion until the 1900's. The commandement was written LONG before that. That's all that I mean.

How we all feel about Wicca is certainly a whole different subject! ;)

[Texasbluebonnet]

Wicca... does it not have witches?

"All the power and glory go to self. God never intended that to happen.

Yes, there are Wiccan Witches. I think the text means witch. Irregardless of what kind of witch, I take it to mean just witch period.

Visionary, I agree. But Wiccans who practice Wicca in the true spirit of the religion aren't harming anyone and I don't personally think God would intend for them to be put to death. They're worshipping nature. As LadyGarnet pointed out, it wasn't even a religion until the 1900's. The commandement was written LONG before that. That's all that I mean.

How we all feel about Wicca is certainly a whole different subject! ;)


Yeah, but it's a religion that worship creation. Not the Creator. And while I could be wrong, I believe that would mean they would be put to death to. And you have to remember they have spells and all too. I don't mean Hollywood type spells, but they seek to be gods by controlling nature. That's my take on it.

[LadyGarnetRose]

""There shall not be one found amoungst you""....

Does that make things a bit clearer?

If one removes themselves to worship whatever, there is no stoning.

[Texasbluebonnet]

""There shall not be one found amoungst you""....

Does that make things a bit clearer?

If one removes themselves to worship whatever, there is no stoning.


I agree. :thumbsup:

[jgonz]

But "one found amongst you" would be someone within the Entire Nation, not just somebody who lives on your street and then goes to another street to worship the creation or spellcast...

[LadyGarnetRose]

But "one found amongst you" would be someone within the Entire Nation, not just somebody who lives on your street and then goes to another street to worship the creation or spellcast...
Is the nation of Israel the people or the ground?

[jgonz]

I'm referring to the People, not the ground.

[ShainaBrina]

I think the thing to remember here is that witches etc are already dead.

[ContraMundum]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

There are many commandments that we are not able to keep. This is why it is a myth to call one's self "fully Torah Observant". I suggest "Torah *Lite Observant". :)

Even in the days of old, the death sentence would be very difficult to carry out anyway. There was a religious authority that had to rule for execution, and it rarely happened. The witnesses had to be halachically perfect, above reproach and very few true witnesses could often be found. This is why Jesus was following halacha when he said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". He was not undermining the Torah's sentence on sinners, but rather carrying it out properly by addressing the need for proper witnesses.

Anyway, I'm sure others will fill in the details for me- I'm running short on time today.

[LadyGarnetRose]

I think the thing to remember here is that witches etc are already dead.
And they can never find the path to God? Is that what you are saying?

[visionary]

Paul dealt with a difficult case...

Ac 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I would suggest that we do like wise.

[Henaynei]

Is the nation of Israel the people or the ground?at the time of the writing it was both.

and in today's world outside of Israel it would mean more likely you and me having to move, not them moving... AND as to how we live this in today's world it also means that we refuse to watch ANYTHING on TV, DVD, listen to ANYTHING on CD, radio etc that has even a *hint* of any kind of witchcraft, spell-casting, divination etc - from horoscopes and tealeaves to Tarot cards, Ouji boards, Dungeon&Dragon RPGs and amulets, etc...

[Texasbluebonnet]

at the time of the writing it was both.

and in today's world outside of Israel it would mean more likely you and me having to move, not them moving... AND as to how we live this in today's world it also means that we refuse to watch ANYTHING on TV, DVD, listen to ANYTHING on CD, radio etc that has even a *hint* of any kind of witchcraft, spell-casting, divination etc - from horoscopes and tealeaves to Tarot cards, Ouji boards, Dungeon&Dragon RPGs and amulets, etc...

Hi Hen,

I'm confused. What do you mean by that post? Are you saying that any form of media that has those elements, if we listen to, watch, or read, that we are...participating in withcraft? I'm just curious and wanna learn. Thanks. :)

[ShainaBrina]

And they can never find the path to God? Is that what you are saying?
What I am trying to say is that in God's eyes they are already dead. He already knows the end from the beginning. So if there were some who would later have been saved, God would have protected them until that time... don't you think?

Meanwhile Abba doesn't want more of His children being lead astray

[Lulav]

Paul dealt with a difficult case...

Ac 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I would suggest that we do like wise. Now we're getting somewhere. :)

What are we today to do? As some said here, we are to let G-d handle it, but is that really what we should do?

'Allow to live' Can be taken different ways, some may be to kill that witch, which would inevitably not allow them to live.

You could remove them from the land as Saul did, you could remove them from the nation, or you could remove them from the congregation, physically.

But also you can not allow them , as a witch to live, by doing just what Paul did.

Congregations are a favorite place for witches today to 'infiltrate'. This causes a diluting of the power of the people there, exactly what the enemy wants.

[Kris10leigh]

I'm coming at this from a very different perspective than the rest of you, so please feel free to ignore me. But I think of this as more of a metaphore. The "witch" to me would not be a person but more like evil things. I think it tells us to stay away from bad influences and guard against evil things in our lives. Just my perspective.

[Texasbluebonnet]

Hi Kris10leigh,

My personal view is that it's a litteral person. But that's just what I think. :)

[visionary]

Personal testimony:

My encounter with a "white" witch when I was a teenager. I was on my own and my girlfriend, whome I will just call Brandy and I just moved into our first away from home place.

One day walking home from work I saw Brandy walking towards me with someone. I didn't feel right about this person, couldn't put my finger on it. Before Brandy could introduce her, I told her that she should have nothing to do with her. Brandy gave me a tongue lashing for that.

This person introduced herself as a "white" witch. She explained that it was all on the nice side, and her majyk was for good...

Yeah right.. was my thought. But since the tongue lashing I did not voice my disapproval to Brandy again. Since I had that weekend off and Brandy invited "her" to move in, I was volunteered to help " her" pack and move in as a way of showing repentence for my early attitude.

We arrived up at "her" place, and soon "others" arrived. In the course of conversation, I learned more and saw much that I will not bring up. It was their intent to have a seance and so I quickly volunteered to leave and went upstairs and introduced myself to the landlady who was very nice to invite me in for tea.

While visiting, I all of a sudden experienced excurciating pain on my bottom and ran quickly to the bathroom to find out the source of the problem. Pulling down my pants I saw a second degree hand print.

Later, when I believed that all the "others" had left, I returned downstairs to find one of the "others" had taken too many valiums and was OD... did emergency revival and drove her to the emergency room.

I left and return to my place to tell Brandy all that occurred, much of which I have not mentioned, other than showing my hurt part... to get her to understand we do not want her in our place. She agreed. It wasn't but two weeks later that some thugs came and busted into the place, damaged the place beyond repair. We are talking taking out walls windows and doors, like a karate team paid to tear down a place.

Dappling with these powers is an invite to death and distruction. We do not need to be involved and call on Yeshua to save those caught up in it, before they self-destruct, and hurt those around them. IT is evil and dangerous.

They are the living dead unless Yeshua brings them back to life.

[Yuanshen]

Yes, exactly.

Yuan, have you ever read the Torah or the books of Joshua?


No not very much. But I think those commandments are not reflective of God but of hard hearts of mankind at that time.

yuan

[ozell]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

Love them as the Lord commanded.

Mt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Lord will separate them at is coming.

Matt13v24: Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26: But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27: So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28: He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29: But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30: Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


37: He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38: The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39: The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world;

and the reapers are the angels.

40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43: Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That witch or sorcerer will not be in the kingdom of God

Rev22v12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

[Texasbluebonnet]

Personal testimony:

My encounter with a "white" witch when I was a teenager. I was on my own and my girlfriend, whome I will just call Brandy and I just moved into our first away from home place.

One day walking home from work I saw Brandy walking towards me with someone. I didn't feel right about this person, couldn't put my finger on it. Before Brandy could introduce her, I told her that she should have nothing to do with her. Brandy gave me a tongue lashing for that.

This person introduced herself as a "white" witch. She explained that it was all on the nice side, and her majyk was for good...

Yeah right.. was my thought. But since the tongue lashing I did not voice my disapproval to Brandy again. Since I had that weekend off and Brandy invited "her" to move in, I was volunteered to help " her" pack and move in as a way of showing repentence for my early attitude.

We arrived up at "her" place, and soon "others" arrived. In the course of conversation, I learned more and saw much that I will not bring up. It was their intent to have a seance and so I quickly volunteered to leave and went upstairs and introduced myself to the landlady who was very nice to invite me in for tea.

While visiting, I all of a sudden experienced excurciating pain on my bottom and ran quickly to the bathroom to find out the source of the problem. Pulling down my pants I saw a second degree hand print.

Later, when I believed that all the "others" had left, I returned downstairs to find one of the "others" had taken too many valiums and was OD... did emergency revival and drove her to the emergency room.

I left and return to my place to tell Brandy all that occurred, much of which I have not mentioned, other than showing my hurt part... to get her to understand we do not want her in our place. She agreed. It wasn't but two weeks later that some thugs came and busted into the place, damaged the place beyond repair. We are talking taking out walls windows and doors, like a karate team paid to tear down a place.

Dappling with these powers is an invite to death and distruction. We do not need to be involved and call on Yeshua to save those caught up in it, before they self-destruct, and hurt those around them. IT is evil and dangerous.

They are the living dead unless Yeshua brings them back to life.

Wow. That's a very scary story to me. I'm glad that you survived it. Thanks for sharing that story. I see this whole thing in a totally different light now.

[Lulav]

And what if one like that walked into your congregation, would you love them as your enemy, or?................

[A_Pioneer]

And what if one like that walked into your congregation, would you love them as your enemy, or?................
Were it sometime in the future, in the Eretz Israel with a Temple, I would give testamony according to my knowledge of said, witch.

Today in America, I would see that she had a good seat where she could hear every word that proceeds form the mouth of God.

Shalom

[ozell]

And what if one like that walked into your congregation, would you love them as your enemy, or?................


The Lord said love them

so the answer is yes,

as the sit down in the congregation and hear the Word of God.

Then he Lord's word takes over. Remember its not the person it's the evil spirit behind the person.

Eph6v 10: Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14: Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15: And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16: Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17: And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

after sitting and hearing the Word of God, the Word begins to

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

now these evil spirits that is in a person have a choice to make, either leave the person or tell the person to leave the congregation.

either way God's word has prevailed.

The person or congregation who may not have been aware of the wickedness in the person, has not shut the door on one of God's creation. Love was shown to the person.

now if you know that the person is wicked, then we must do as JOB did.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Avoid

[Lulav]

And if you see that they aren't learning but instead causing evil influence over the people?

What did Yeshua say?

Does he always say to love them?

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

She was teaching witchcraft, note what he says here:

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

[A_Pioneer]

And if you see that they aren't learning but instead causing evil influence over the people?

What did Yeshua say?

Does he always say to love them?


She was teaching witchcraft, note what he says here:

[/quote]
Here, lady, this bag of stones, right at the moment I'm far short of being able to cast any stones!

If I misread you intent, I am sorry.:blush: :o

Shalom

[Lulav]

Huh? I was responding to ozell?

Pioneer :hug:

[ozell]

[quote=Lulav;44186603]And if you see that they aren't learning but instead causing evil influence over the people?

What did Yeshua say?

Does he always say to love them?

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

there was no conditions!

what is Love?

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

there are no conditions on Love and the keeping of God's law which is how we are to Love.

Matthew 18v21: Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22: Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.



Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


Ps 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

[Lulav]

I never said anything about vengeance. But I don't think he wants us to 'tolerate' evil either. :)

[ozell]

I never said anything about vengeance. But I don't think he wants us to 'tolerate' evil either. :)

He teaches us how to deal with it.

the Commandments

[judahsgem]

I don't have an aswer and certainly can't site scripture, but I wanted to add the discussion if I may. What do you suppose the definition of a "witch" would be? Certainly it isn't one who practices Wicca.
the description of a witch is in Deuteronomy

[Henaynei]

He teaches us how to deal with it.

the Commandmentswhich is where the command to stone a witch comes from - the rabbis, in their divine wisdom have told us that while living in the lands of other kings we must abide by their rules (thus eliminating many of the commandments to execute for various violations) where doing so does not cause one to violate negative commands and where the authority to execute certain commands belongs to the leadership of a country (i.e. courts, administration, legal system etc). Thus what remain for us in the lands of other kings is a direct responsibility to those commands that directly relate to us as individuals...all the negative ones and most of the positive ones ...

[HadassahSukkot]

which is where the command to stone a witch comes from - the rabbis, in their divine wisdom have told us that while living in the lands of other kings we must abide by their rules (thus eliminating many of the commandments to execute for various violations) where doing so does not cause one to violate negative commands and where the authority to execute certain commands belongs to the leadership of a country (i.e. courts, administration, legal system etc). Thus what remain for us in the lands of other kings is a direct responsibility to those commands that directly relate to us as individuals...all the negative ones and most of the positive ones ...
And I gotta say they were very wise in making that observation.

When we do not live in the land, we have so many other laws governing us, and in many of our lands people who fit the description in the scriptures of a witch/warlock are respected people.

We mark and avoid where able, minister to where able.. but I don't see where we can fufil this commandment outside of the land.

[Steve Petersen]

There are others who are to be put to death according to Torah. Why stop with witches?

Disobedient children
Homosexuals
People who practice bestiality

Hard to believe we are living in the 21st century.

[johnd]

this side of the cross we are to execute none, except those who would continue to murder (johnd's interpretation and reason for believing in the death penalty and to what extent)

it's all about opportunity to get into the kingdom and murder cuts that short. so murderers must be stopped (and if they won't stop then the death penalty) Moses was a murderer David was a murderer remember.

the rest are for us to try to win over to the kingdom

[Henaynei]

this side of the cross we are to execute none, except those who would continue to murder please provide scripture to support this - and while you're at it please explain "continue to murder" - does that mean they do it twice??, or three times, or four? what about the person who murders a whole family, do they get to murder two families or four or six before they would be seen as "continuing?"

[johnd]

please provide scripture to support this - and while you're at it please explain "continue to murder" - does that mean they do it twice??, or three times, or four? what about the person who murders a whole family, do they get to murder two families or four or six before they would be seen as "continuing?"

Ok.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7 sorry Bible software is frozen up).

And judging from the crime committed a jury of one's piers can fairly accurately determine if one would be a repeat murderer.

Say Absalom as opposed to Ted Bundy.

[Henaynei]

Ok.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7 sorry Bible software is frozen up).

And judging from the crime committed a jury of one's piers can fairly accurately determine if one would be a repeat murderer.

Say Absalom as opposed to Ted Bundy.but you just said
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7)and thena jury of one's piers can fairly accurately determine if one would be a repeat murdererso which is it?? no sinner can cast the first stone (judge guilty of execution)" or a jury can? are they without sin? any of them?

and what about the folks who fall inside your arbitrary definition of "repeat?" ....is a parent who kills all of their 4 children repeating murder? is the racist who only kills once a year? and is it only for murder? what about the rapist of little children...? or the person who walks into a school and starts shooting??

what about this jury who says the racist is not repeating or the jury who says the school shooter is "ill" and sets him free in 2 years to do it again?

how is it that man's standard becomes a higher law than G-d's?

btw - Bundy repented, Absalom didn't...

[Lulav]

Because no one has addressed this


Originally Posted by visionary http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44095087#post44095087)
Paul dealt with a difficult case...

Ac 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

I would suggest that we do like wise.
Now we're getting somewhere. :)

What are we today to do? As some said here, we are to let G-d handle it, but is that really what we should do?

'Allow to live' Can be taken different ways, some may be to kill that witch, which would inevitably not allow them to live.

You could remove them from the land as Saul did, you could remove them from the nation, or you could remove them from the congregation, physically.

But also you can not allow them , as a witch to live, by doing just what Paul did.

Congregations are a favorite place for witches today to 'infiltrate'. This causes a diluting of the power of the people there, exactly what the enemy wants.

We see that Paul was not in the land, nor did he just 'love them', he did not suffer this witch to continue living the same life. Meaning he did not allow the demon within her to continue it's residence there, is that not what a witch is? someone who 'channels' demonic activity knowingly? Paul calls it a 'snake spirit'

So do we just suffer them, or free them, despite the consequences? Paul was stripped, and flogged and imprisoned. do we allow them to continue on, trying to dirty the path in front us or do we act.

Remember I said nothing about murder or killing.

[Lulav]

This was the other commandment Henaynei added


De 18:10 & 11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire,usethdivination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a or that witch, or a charmer *, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer *
Notice what I've highlighted. It is not land based , is it?

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live - Ex 22:18


So how do we keep this commandment? Please use the Torah to explain how, if you can't please use any scripture or NT writing.

So in the Diaspora they are allowed to remain among the people, in the congregation, to lead others to corruption?

Do you have a passage from Mishneh Torah on this Steve?

What about allowing them among you? Was the command not given to protect Israel from these evil influences?

And what if one like that walked into your congregation, would you love them as your enemy, or?................

[johnd]

but you just said
and thenso which is it?? no sinner can cast the first stone (judge guilty of execution)" or a jury can? are they without sin? any of them?

and what about the folks who fall inside your arbitrary definition of "repeat?" ....is a parent who kills all of their 4 children repeating murder? is the racist who only kills once a year? and is it only for murder? what about the rapist of little children...? or the person who walks into a school and starts shooting??

what about this jury who says the racist is not repeating or the jury who says the school shooter is "ill" and sets him free in 2 years to do it again?

how is it that man's standard becomes a higher law than G-d's?

That's the point. It is about opportunity to witness, and based on the authority of God to execute murderers rid those would would through murder deprive others of that opportunity. Witches, adulterers, homosexuals and even those murderers who repent can convert and deserve every opportunity to convert leaving God to determine when the point of no return is reached.

btw - Bundy repented, Absalom didn't...

True, but Bundy was a serial murderer and man is too incapable of determining of a man is truly repentant. So the fact that he murdered multiple times weighed heavily in that decision.

[Henaynei]

G-d did not say:

1) kill these if you feel they truly deserve it
2) ooops, I'm sorry, I changed my mind, kill them but only if you have no sin of your own
3) oh, darn! I forgot ... don't kill them because they may repent and turn to me....

he DID day:

kill them and thus remove the evil from your midst ...

[Texasbluebonnet]

G-d did not say:

1) kill these if you feel they truly deserve it
2) ooops, I'm sorry, I changed my mind, kill them but only if you have no sin of your own
3) oh, darn! I forgot ... don't kill them because they may repent and turn to me....

he DID day:

kill them and thus remove the evil from your midst ...

Kill a witch? I'm cool with that. Just kidding. But seriously, how do we "kill the witch" in today's world?

[johnd]

Kill a witch? I'm cool with that. Just kidding. But seriously, how do we "kill the witch" in today's world?

Depends on which witch it is, I s'pose...

Like maybe the one trying to steal the hotty boyfriend...? {smile}

Chick fight... at least.... LOL

[ozell]

which is where the command to stone a witch comes from - the rabbis, in their divine wisdom have told us that while living in the lands of other kings we must abide by their rules (thus eliminating many of the commandments to execute for various violations) where doing so does not cause one to violate negative commands and where the authority to execute certain commands belongs to the leadership of a country (i.e. courts, administration, legal system etc). Thus what remain for us in the lands of other kings is a direct responsibility to those commands that directly relate to us as individuals...all the negative ones and most of the positive ones ...

correct.

the commandment says thou shalt not kill, in the OT as
well as the NT.

we don't and can't go round killing witches or whomever
is a abomination of the Lord.

what we can do is teach them the Law and the testimony, which is the Word of God.

Ezek 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

lawful and right is the commandments of God

[ozell]

we fight with God's word.

we fight with the law.

The wicked have to be taught and given a chance to hear the TRUTH

Ezekiel 33

Ezek 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

Ezek 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

the Lord said warn the wicked of his sins.

Ezek 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.