Talmud authentic or men's traditions

[stone]

I will challenge the claimed authenticity of the oral torah here with one chapter of scripture.


2 kings 22

22:1 Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jedidah, the daughter of Adaiah of Boscath.


22:2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.


22:3 And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the LORD, saying,


22:4 Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people:


22:5 And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the LORD, to repair the breaches of the house,


22:6 Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house.


22:7 Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully.


22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.


22:9 And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.


22:10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.


22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.


22:12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,


22:13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.

22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.

22:15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,

22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.


22:18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;


22:19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.


22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

[Steve Petersen]

So how did the stories of Adam and the Patriarchs find their way down to Moses, who wrote them down?

There are at least two examples in which the Torah had to be clarified by God to Moses (Numbers 27:1-8, Numbers 15:32-35)

Jesus upheld some oral traditions. Was he mistaken? Here are some examples:

Blessing before the meal (Matthew 14:19, Matt. 26:26)

Tithing of herbs (Matt. 23:23)

Attending synagogue (Luke 4:16)

Divorce in the case of adultery (Matthew 5:32). The Torah is unclear about the meaning about what constitute grounds for divorce (Deut. 24:1) Hillel permitted divorce for trivial matters (Gittin 9:10) Shammai permitted divorce only for adultery

Fasting (Matthew 6:17)

None of these things are prescribed by the Torah, but are cultural elements prescribed and handed down by Oral Tradition.

[stone]

Good questions, however, what is written is truth.



22:10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.


22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.


****


How could an oral tradition passed on from generation to generation have survived what was going on in the world at this time. The scriptures read that the words were read from a book. There is no mention of oral ordinances that go along with the written torah and there have never been any writings that justify such a thing from Moshe in the torah. Moshe was very careful to add everything of importance into what is written and there is absolutely no mention of a oral torah, None.

Let's take a look at what the children of Israel were interested in at the time.

1st look at what is written after the torah is found:


1 And the king sent, and they gathered unto him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem. 2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD. 3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant.

***


What was Israel doing?


4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel. 5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. 6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people. 7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. 8 And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city. 9 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren. 10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech. 11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire. 12 And the altars that were on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake them down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron. 13 And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile. 14 And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men. 15 Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove. 16 And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that were there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned them upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words. 17 Then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel. 18 And he said, Let him alone; let no man move his bones. So they let his bones alone, with the bones of the prophet that came out of Samaria. 19 And all the houses also of the high places that were in the cities of Samaria, which the kings of Israel had made to provoke the LORD to anger, Josiah took away, and did to them according to all the acts that he had done in Bethel. 20 And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem. 21 And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant. 22 Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah; 23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the LORD in Jerusalem. 24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.
25 And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. 26 Notwithstanding the LORD turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal. 27 And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there. 28 Now the rest of the acts of Josiah, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah? 29 In his days Pharaohnechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him. 30 And his servants carried him in a chariot dead from Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him in his own sepulchre. And the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead. 31 Jehoahaz was twenty and three years old when he began to reign; and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah. 32 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his fathers had done. 33 And Pharaohnechoh put him in bands at Riblah in the land of Hamath, that he might not reign in Jerusalem; and put the land to a tribute of an hundred talents of silver, and a talent of gold. 34 And Pharaohnechoh made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in the room of Josiah his father, and turned his name to Jehoiakim, and took Jehoahaz away: and he came to Egypt, and died there. 35 And Jehoiakim gave the silver and the gold to Pharaoh; but he taxed the land to give the money according to the commandment of Pharaoh: he exacted the silver and the gold of the people of the land, of every one according to his taxation, to give it unto Pharaohnechoh. 36 Jehoiakim was twenty and five years old when he began to reign; and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Zebudah, the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah. 37 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his fathers had done.

[Steve Petersen]

Good questions, however, what is written is truth.

That does not mean that oral tradition is untruth.

How could an oral tradition passed on from generation to generation have survived what was going on in the world at this time.

Oral traditions have survived worse circumstances. Some examples include the Mishnah, Kalevala, the works of Homer, etc.

Scriptures read that the words were read from a book. There is no mention of oral ordinances that go along with the written torah and there have never been any writings that justify such a thing from Moshe in the torah. Moshe was very careful to add everything of importance into what is written and there is absolutely no mention of a oral torah, None.

The Torah itself anticipated a time when Moses would be gone and their would be a need for judges and elders to make rulings for the people. These rulings were as binding as the Torah itself (Deut. 17:8-12, Num. 11:17) The Mishnah traces its legal rulings from Moses to Priests, to Prophets to the Great Assembly (includes Ezra) and eventually to the Sages of Jesus' day (Avot 1). Judaism accepts this chain of custody of these rulings. I don't think it is unreasonable that oral law could be faithfully transmitted and represent God's authority through the sages and elders of Israel. I think that this would be Jesus' position (as I quoted in Matthew 23).

Because some may have forgotten the rulings doesn't mean that they all did.

[stone]

You do not realize that at this time it was lost do you?

[Steve Petersen]

You do not realize that at this time it was lost do you?

Apparently neither I nor Judaism realize this; you are correct. You are assuming that ignorance of the Oral Law during the time of Hilkiah was universal.

[stone]

2 jews 3 opinions.. sound familiar?

cmon, what are the chances of it surviveing?

There are on the other hand many writings from the prophets that acknowledge this turning away from God. Jesus also rebuked the pharisees for replacing his fathers commandments with men's traditions.

THINK ABOUT IT!

:thumbsup:

[Steve Petersen]

2 jews 3 opinions.. sound familiar?

cmon, what are the chances of it surviveing?

What are the odds of the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph surviving the Slavery in Egypt? Yet they did! Even though Israel had been paganized in captivity these stories survived. Why is it so hard to believe that legal rulings could have survived other difficult circumstances?

[Lulav]

Yeshua spoke against transgressing, or sinning against the commandments of G-d by mans traditions. But he did not say that all traditions were ungodly. It is when one holds the traditions of men, thus the oral law, above that which G-d deemed important enough to have carved in stone and written down as he dictated, that it is sinning. But keeping traditions, or oral law that help us to walk in G-ds ways is not sinning.

He said they laid aside the commandment of G-d to do the tradition of men, that is sinning.

There were many things that Israel needed to know that weren't included in the Torah that are part of the oral law.

Tell me stone, have you ever read any of the Talmud? For instance, HaShem says to do no work on Shabbat, but did not define work, so how do we know what not to do? This is an example of what is found in the Talmud, using scripture, the sages determined that the L-RD did define work in a round about way in the Torah when he spoke of all the work of making the mishkan. There are 39 things involved and from that we get what not to do.

Now I agree that carrying a tissue on Shabbat to be deemed a sin is far out there, for a tissue is not a burden, but fences were made to keep the people pure and to help to keep them from accidentally sinning.

Mark 7

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'


8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men*--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"--' (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."


It's not about the oral law, it's about holding it above what G-d gave to Moshe.

[stone]

How can you know what is authentic? There is no way, short of asking God himself, but you have no oracles today. why?

[Steve Petersen]

How can you know what is authentic? There is no way, short of asking God himself, but you have no oracles today. why?

You have to trust somebody. Even if they are wrong, it is not our responsibility to correct. It is God's. If the sages make incorrect rulings, they are responsible, not the people who are commanded to obey their rulings (by God himself.)

The Torah commands Israel to obey the rulings of the priest and judges strictly:

Deu 17:9-13 (KJV) And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment: 10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall show thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee: 11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall show thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

So did Jesus:

Mat 23:2-3 (KJV) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

If judges ruled erroneously and the peopled erred because of it, the sin was the judge’s and the judges had to make sacrifice. The people were not held accountable for the erroneous ruling.

Encyclopaedia Judaica, ORAYOT ("Rulings"), short tractate in three chapters, attached to the order of Nezikin in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds. Its scriptural basis is Leviticus 4 and Numbers 15:22–31. The biblical phrase "sinning through error" is understood here to refer to erroneous rulings by the high priest or the high court (the Sanhedrin), leading to the inadvertent violation of precepts, which, if willfully transgressed, would have been deserving of karet. The first chapter discusses the various aspects of erroneous decisions issuing from the bet din, especially if the error led to idolatry. The second chapter begins with the problem of erroneous decisions issuing from the high priest, but goes on to discuss the conditions (nature of error, particular types of precepts) which make the rules of erroneous decisions applicable. The particular position of the ruler (nasi) who unwittingly commits a sin is also entered into (cf. Lev. 4:22).

Stone Edition, Chumash, Artscroll publication. Lev. 4:13-21 Like the offering of the Kohen Gadol, this one comes about because of mistaken ruling as follows: The Great Sanhedrin of seventy-one judges, the high court of the nation which has its seat on the Temple Mount, issued a mistaken ruling as a result of which the majority of the nation transgressed a negative commandment for which the penalty would be kares, had it been done intentionally.

Lev 4:13-21 (KJV) And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; 14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation. 15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD. 16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation: 17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the veil. 18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar. 20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. 21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.

Num 15:22-24 (KJV) And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, 23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations; 24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

[stone]

Apparently it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[LadyGarnetRose]

How can you know what is authentic? There is no way, short of asking God himself, but you have no oracles today. why?
Who's to say we don't?


These oral traditions are handed down from parent to child in the same way of, "eat your spinach it's good for you." Some will others will be stubborn.

Just as you are so sure of the infalibility of the NT...that is how we are of the Oral Tradition.

[ChavaK]

There were many things that Israel needed to know that weren't included in the Torah that are part of the oral law.

HaShem says to do no work on Shabbat, but did not define work, so how do we know what not to do? This is an example of what is found in the Talmud, using scripture, the sages determined that the L-RD did define work in a round about way in the Torah when he spoke of all the work of making the mishkan. There are 39 things involved and from that we get what not to do.

This is especially important, given last weeks parsha Ki Tissa...
how can we be responsible for keeping the sabbath and not
being held liable for death by working, if we have no concept
of what work is?


12 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
יג וְאַתָּה דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, לֵאמֹר, אַךְ אֶת-שַׁבְּתֹתַי, תִּשְׁמֹרוּ: כִּי אוֹת הִוא בֵּינִי וּבֵינֵיכֶם, לְדֹרֹתֵיכֶם--לָדַעַת, כִּי אֲנִי יְהוָה מְקַדִּשְׁכֶם. 13 'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am the LORD who sanctify you.

How can it be a sign between G-d and Israel if we do not what
keeping the sabbath is?

יד וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם, אֶת-הַשַּׁבָּת, כִּי קֹדֶשׁ הִוא, לָכֶם; מְחַלְלֶיהָ, מוֹת יוּמָת--כִּי כָּל-הָעֹשֶׂה בָהּ מְלָאכָה, וְנִכְרְתָה הַנֶּפֶשׁ הַהִוא מִקֶּרֶב עַמֶּיהָ. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

How can we be liable for death and being cut off from our people
if G-d does not tell us what profaning the sabbath is, and what
work is?

טו שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, יֵעָשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן קֹדֶשׁ, לַיהוָה; כָּל-הָעֹשֶׂה מְלָאכָה בְּיוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, מוֹת יוּמָת. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Same issue- how can we be put to death for working, if G-d does
not explain what work is?

טז וְשָׁמְרוּ בְנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֶת-הַשַּׁבָּת, לַעֲשׂוֹת אֶת-הַשַּׁבָּת לְדֹרֹתָם, בְּרִית עוֹלָם. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

How can it be a perpetual covenant if we don't know what
it means?

יז בֵּינִי, וּבֵין בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל--אוֹת הִוא, לְעֹלָם: כִּי-שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי, שָׁבַת וַיִּנָּפַשׁ. {ס} 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel for ever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested.' {S}

Again, how can it be a sign if we cannot recognize what it is?

By the way, this is not an attempt to get people to follow Judaism or the oral law. It is simply an explanation of why Jews think the Oral Law is from HaShem and
not man made. No proselytizing attempt here, folks.

[Lulav]

Exactly! :thumbsup:

[visionary]

You know this same argument can be made about the traditions of the catholic church, they have their church fathers just as jews have their rabbi's... no one is saying that either were perfect. No one should follow them blindly either. We are all to search God, seek Him, learn of Him, Search the scriptures, pray for wisdom, and grow in spirit.

The internet has brought about a new age where we can explore everyone's pandora box of religion, what we should be searching for is the gems that the Lord put in there not the crud. Sweep through the house and gather the lost coins. Yeshua will point them out. Collect them and rejoice.

[ContraMundum]

Check out everyone according to the scriptures:

Act 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue.
Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Act 17:12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.


I do think tradition has a vital, undeniable and irreversibly necessary role in religion, but it is subject to the written word and must be scrutinised by it.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Check out everyone according to the scriptures:

Act 17:10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue.
Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Act 17:12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.


I do think tradition has a vital, undeniable and irreversibly necessary role in religion, but it is subject to the written word and must be scrutinised by it.
And what if you look at the fruits of the individuals that decided that something was gospel....

Are bad fruits, rotten to the core, something that you wouldn't feed a pig?

[ContraMundum]

And what if you look at the fruits of the individuals that decided that something was gospel....

Are bad fruits, rotten to the core, something that you wouldn't feed a pig?

Are you thinking of later Temple Judaism? We know times were terrible, woeful, rife with corruption and graft and that the sins of Israel were among the worst times in history, but still, they were the established authority of the day. A wise saying is "abuse doesn't nullify the substance, but affirms it". In other words, abuse itself does not necessarily destroy authority, but makes it more accountable before God. He alone takes authority from those whom He gives it.

[visionary]

Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. A lot of these authorities were just trying to get a handle on how to deal with this new faith.... even as believers themselves.

[Lulav]

You know this same argument can be made about the traditions of the catholic church, they have their church fathers just as jews have their rabbi's... no one is saying that either were perfect. No one should follow them blindly either. We are all to search God, seek Him, learn of Him, Search the scriptures, pray for wisdom, and grow in spirit.

The internet has brought about a new age where we can explore everyone's pandora box of religion, what we should be searching for is the gems that the Lord put in there not the crud. Sweep through the house and gather the lost coins. Yeshua will point them out. Collect them and rejoice.:thumbsup::amen:

[LadyGarnetRose]

Are you thinking of later Temple Judaism? We know times were terrible, woeful, rife with corruption and graft and that the sins of Israel were among the worst times in history, but still, they were the established authority of the day. A wise saying is "abuse doesn't nullify the substance, but affirms it". In other words, abuse itself does not necessarily destroy authority, but makes it more accountable before God. He alone takes authority from those whom He gives it.
No I am not.

[ContraMundum]

No I am not.

Well, it applies to them all the same. Let's be honest about that.

Thank you for respecting the forum and refraining from another attack on Yeshua and His Body, the Church.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Well, it applies to them all the same. Let's be honest about that.

Thank you for respecting the forum and refraining from another attack on Yeshua and His Body, the Church.
It wasn't an attack on Yeshua, nor the Body, nor his church.

[ContraMundum]

It wasn't an attack on Yeshua, nor the Body, nor his church.

OK. :thumbsup:

[christinepro]

Yeshua stated, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light"

[ChavaK]

For instance, HaShem says to do no work on Shabbat, but did not define work, so how do we know what not to do? This is an example of what is found in the Talmud, using scripture, the sages determined that the L-RD did define work in a round about way in the Torah when he spoke of all the work of making the mishkan. There are 39 things involved and from that we get what not to do.


Also the Mishkan and shabbat serve the same purpose-to
give HaShem a home. Shabbat does it in a spirtiual/temporal
world, while the mishkan does it in a physical world.
Both serve the same to goal and what happens in one is
relevant to what happens to the other..






It's not about the oral law, it's about holding it above what G-d gave to Moshe.[/quote]

[Lulav]

Stone do you only believe that everything that G-d said is recorded in the Torah?

If so , can you please show me where he said what the dimensions of the menorah were to be?

[johnd]

I believe what God said is found in many other places than just the Bible. However, it must still stand the test of truth (being compared to the Bible which is the measuring standard of all truth) AND it must not be used in such a way that it gives credence to an otherwise ungodly pack o' lies.

For example, the Book of Mormon may quote the Bible but that does not prove the Book of Mormon is legit. It is merely a record of that quote.

This is why Jesus silenced the demons who rightly identified him as the Holy One of God. It wasn't the content of the message being spoken but the credibility of the ones doing the speaking. It matters very much from where even truth comes.

That being said, and given the fact that the Lord spoke of a preexisting infiltration into Judaism (tares sown in amongst the wheat) and the fact that an anti-Yeshua bias has shrouded Judaism for two millennia, I am cautious to the point of skepticism over much of the Talmud. Truth there may be in there but there's a lot of stuff in there to be careful about...

[Lulav]

That's what we were given the Holy Spirit for, discernment. :)

[johnd]

That's what we were given the Holy Spirit for, discernment. :)

:thumbsup: I ndeed. But are we not to test even the spirits? ostensibly by the Bible...

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[ContraMundum]

That's what we were given the Holy Spirit for, discernment. :)

Too bad lots of people's "Holy Spirit's" seem to disagree with each other.

[johnd]

<> ?

[Steve Petersen]

Too bad lots of people's "Holy Spirit's" seem to disagree with each other.

Right said, Fred:thumbsup:

[Lulav]

Too bad lots of people's "Holy Spirit's" seem to disagree with each other.That's because many, taught by men, don't know how to discern the Holy Spirits voice, because their thoughts are so clouded by what they were taught and believed men on many things.

[Lulav]

Found this in one of my bookmarks, must have come across it and saved it to read one day.

"Not Subject to the Law of God?" (http://www.yashanet.com/library/under7.htm)

Let's make it clear -- Pentecost, Shepard and Farrar leave no doubt as to the Christian position on the Talmud (the teachings of the Pharisees). They all agree that:
The teachings of "Jesus" differered completely from those of the Talmud
There are no moral teachings of value compared to those of "Jesus"
The words of the Talmud were "second hand" in value
There is precious little in the Talmud of worthFor centuries the Church has held this opinion of the Talmud. Historically, whenever there has been Jewish persecution at the hands of Christians, "Talmud bonfires" were often a common part of the events.


There is a two-fold problem with the common Christian opinion of the writings of the Pharisees:
Few Christians have ever looked for themselves to see what the Talmud says.
Even fewer would know how to approach these texts as they are not written in a "western" style of literature. (Hence the comments by J.W. Shepard that it is, "dull collections of disjointed comments on many subjects." Like all ignorant people, he condemns what he doesn't understand.)The Talmud is indeed the quintessential piece of Pharisaic literature, most of it predating Yeshua. Examining some of its teachings and comparing them to the words of the Messiah, (48) we find something quite contrary to what Christianity teaches:



Teachings of YESHUA the Pharisee (Summaries in italics) TALMUDIC Teachings of the Pharisees

Yeshua The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27

Talmud- Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b

Yeshua - Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. - Matthew 25:45
Talmud - One who betrays his fellow, it is as if he has betrayed God. - Tosefta Sh'vuot,ch. 3

Yeshua - Insulting someone is like murder.- Matthew 5:21-22
Talmud - He who publicly shames his neighbour is as though he shed blood.- Talmud: Bava Mezia 58b

Yeshua - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Matthew 5:28
Talmud - One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.- Kallah, Ch. 1

Yeshua - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.- Matthew 5:45
Talmud - Rabbi Abbahu said: The day when rain fails is greater than [the day of] the Revival of the Dead,for the Revival of the Dead is for the righteous only whereas rain is both for the righteous and for the wicked - Talmud: Taanit 7a

Yeshua - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 6:1
Talmud -In the case of the recital of the Shema’, since everybody else recites, and he also recites, it does not look like showing off on his part; but in the case of the month of Ab, since everybody else does work and he does no work, it looks like showing off.- Talmud: Berachot 17b

Yeshua - But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth. - Matthew 6:3
Talmud - What kind of charity is that which delivers a man from an unnatural death? When a man gives without knowing to whom he gives. and the beggar receives without knowing from whom he receives. - Talmud: Bava Batra 10a - 10b

Yeshua - Do not worry about where your food will come from tomorrow, or your drink. - Matthew 6:25-31
Talmud - Rabbi Eliezer the Great declares: Whoever has a piece of bread in his basket and Says. ‘What shall I eat tomorrow?’ belongs only to them who are little in faith. - Talmud: Sotah 48b


Yeshua - Love your enemy. - Matthew 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; - Matthew 5:43
Talmud - They who are insulted but insult not back; who hear themselves reproached but answer not; who serve out of love and rejoice in their affliction--of them it is written in Scripture: They that love God are as the going forth of the sun in its might. - Talmud: Yoma 23a, Gitin 36b, Shabat 88b


I think you get the drift...............


Bottom line

" Yeshua did not tell them to stop doing Torah -- He told them to do it right.:preach:

[ContraMundum]

That's because many, taught by men, don't know how to discern the Holy Spirits voice, because their thoughts are so clouded by what they were taught and believed men on many things.

Yeah- everybody says that about the ones they disagree with.

Of course, people that say that also think they're the only ones rightly hearing the Holy Spirit.

[Ivy]

Too bad lots of people's "Holy Spirit's" seem to disagree with each other.

ROTFLOL :D

[Lulav]

Yeah- everybody says that about the ones they disagree with.

Of course, people that say that also think they're the only ones rightly hearing the Holy Spirit.

Over and over your posts towards me betray your own signature. :(


I . . . beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace - Eph. 4:1-3
Mychristianforums.com Link: ContraMundum.christianforums.com (http://contramundum.christianforums.com/) (2253 views)

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Lulav, just ignore him and shake off any dust accumulated.

he's been causing trouble for many years, and Adonai may or may not brook it for a little while more.

You continue to be a stickler for the Truth, Love the Truth with all your heart and soul and being, and you will find an Awesome unexpected and Glorious Surprise Soon ! It is wrtten, is it not? (He Himself will Teach you as He Gave His Word to do so) Rest now for a little while. Soon .... .... ...