Heavenly Liturgy

[JustinHesychast]

Apparently I have a misunderstanding. I've always thought that the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom resembled extremely closely the Heavenly Liturgical Worship. So I always thought, assumed, or some such, that heavenly worship would be like the St. John Chrysostom DL. However, with the recent threads with the Western Orthodox with their different liturgy and organs, and the Ethiopian Orthodox with their drums... I'm starting to think I am mistaken in my thoughts. :P

So are any of the various Orthodox liturgies anywhere close to the form of Heavenly Worship?

Will there be instruments in Heavenly Worship?

Just when I start thinking I understand so much, I realize how little I don't understand in the slightest. :)

Thank y'all for any replies! God bless!

:crosseo:

[buzuxi02]

You answered your own question. Heavenly worship is liturgical(Rev 7.10-12). With incense and intercessions (Rev 8.3-4, 5.8). With the singng of the Trisagion ( Rev 4.8) and the partaking of the Eucharist (Rev 19.9). The earthly liturgical worship prefigures the heavely worship.

[Monica, child of God]

Instruments are not wrong and they are mentioned in the psalter as being used in worship. So perhaps they are used in heaven but I don't know. But the point of any music (vocal or instrumental) is giving praise to God. Various cultures do that differently on earth. Orthodoxy transfigures existing cultures and so Orthodox worship reflects cultural differences.

But in the US we are used to pop culture, not real culture. Real culture develops over centuries. It is not a matter of fads or "This is my style." That attitude has no place in worship. Liturgical dance and drumming is natural in Ethiopia because it speaks to their culture. Nothing in those videos seemed like a show or exhibition or catering to personal preferences like it would be if Western Christians said "You know what we are missing? Liturgical dance! Let's form a committee to investigate. Call the local ballet studio and get an expert on this. "

M.

[JustinHesychast]

Hrm. Thanks for the replies so far! I'm digesting the info! :D

[ArmyMatt]

yeah instruments are not wrong per say, but if God fashioned the human voice, than why would we want to add any kind of sound to that?

[Monica, child of God]

yeah instruments are not wrong per say, but if God fashioned the human voice, than why would we want to add any kind of sound to that?

Because the psalter says it is a good thing to do

Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD!


I am not saying that we should change our Eastern tradition of acapella. But we should recognize that using instruments is equally valid in other traditions of the Church. Let us not act as if our small t tradition is in some way superior than other small t traditions in our Church.


M.

[JustinHesychast]

So then why don't we dance in church? It says praise Him with dance.

[Monica, child of God]

So then why don't we dance in church? It says praise Him with dance.

Justin, don't think of the Bible as a rule book. This is a psalm. You can't approach a psalm like the 10 commandments. The OT and NT use a good deal of poetic language. The point of this psalm is that we should praise God. How we praise God depends on the way that Holy Tradition intersects with a particular culture. In Greek, Arabic and Slavic cultures this has lead to glorious acapella chant that speaks to the people of those cultures and our own. In the Western Tradition it leads to the use of organs that moves people of Western European cultures.

In the West, dance is no longer a part of social interactions or transmition of information for the most part. Sure, people go to prom or out dancing every now and again but it isn't really a touchstone for us in the way that it is for other cultures. Liturgical dance is a controversial anomily in the West whereas in Ethiopia, it is an unquestioned, normative part of worship. Liturgical dance would be more of a distraction for people present who are not used to dance than a means of worship. Introducing liturgical dance in Eastern Orthodox worship would be as unnatural as asking the Ethiopians to stop dancing and using drums.

Remember we are most accustomed to fad-based pop culture. We think of time in decades like "the 60's" or "the 70's." Real culture develops over long periods of time and takes generation to grow roots. Just the idea that we up and try something because we read about it or like it implies that it is not a real cultural outgrowth.

M.

[Monica, child of God]

Note also that the chant or singing of cultures that have embraced Orthodoxy is very different. Can you imagine telling Arabs to use Russian tones, or telling Greeks to use Georgian tones? It would be 1) unnatural and 2) completely rejected by the people as an intrusion. That is what trying to introduce instruments and liturgical dance into Eastern Orthodoxy would be like.

[addendum] The only natural way to bring Liturgical dance and drum into the Eastern Orthodox church would be if whole Tewahedo parishes with clergy converted and the bishop that received them approved. There are a few Eastern Orthodox parishes with a large number of Ethiopians that have incorporated drum and dance for their weddings and special ceremonies.

M.

[gorion]

Wow, Monica!! Very well said!! An excellent explanation.

[JustinHesychast]

Extremely helpful, thank you. I am trying to wrap my mind around this... I have it ingrained in my head that there is one way to worship, one way to do this, one way to do that, one way to believe, etc. So it's a bit of an odd concept for me, especially when I rationalized that one of the reasons I converted (or "am converting") is because of varied Protestant theology and worship (drums, loud music, electric guitars, jumping up and down, clapping, etc.)...

[gorion]

There is one correct theology but many forms of Worship.

[JustinHesychast]

That just blows my mind that there is one doctrine, but the worship can vary to anything under the sun. It's like I am a 4 year old being used to doing "5 - 2 = ?" and now trying to learn how on Earth it is possible to do the problem "2 - 5 = ?" ....

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Well, I wouldn't say, "anything under the sun" but it can certainly vary to accomodate various cultures and their own styles.

[Monica, child of God]

That just blows my mind that there is one doctrine, but the worship can vary to anything under the sun. It's like I am a 4 year old being used to doing "5 - 2 = ?" and now trying to learn how on Earth it is possible to do the problem "2 - 5 = ?" ....

No, not anything under the sun. True worship, Orthodox worship, must be reverent. It must be directed toward God, not man. It must be beautiful but not a spectacle or show. It must be theologically correct. It must be firmly rooted in culture and faith, not fads. It must enhance and not distract or offend.

So that excludes quite a lot. A music form that is less than 75 years old does not qualify so as much as I love rock, it cannot be a part of Orthodox worship. If dance is not a part of cultural expression at this time in the West, it should not be a part of Orthodox worship.

Worship like anything else in the Church must develop slowly and with the consent of the people and clergy.

M.

[JustinHesychast]

It still ain't clicking. :P Ah, well.

[Breaking Babylon]

If I had walked into my parish that first time expecting ancient Apostolic worship and saw a bunch of people dancing around with tambourines, I'd be agnostic at best.

[JustinHesychast]

Exactly. I would have laughed, said this isn't what it claimed to be, and walked out. I probably would've been agnostic at best, too, seeing as I was on the verge of atheism at the time I discovered Orthodoxy.

[gorion]

Do you really think the liturgies we do today are "apostolic"?

[JustinHesychast]

Do you really think the liturgies we do today are "apostolic"?

Yes. Are they not?

(Yes, I just used my necromantic magics on this thread. The topic has been on my mind again lately. :))

[buzuxi02]

Worship is centered around the Holy Eucharist. The mystical sacrament of Holy Communion is Apostolic. If you do not partake of it, thos simply makes you a spectator from the outside looking in. The Body and Blood is one with space and time, thru correct worship, you are one of the active players, you are at the table along with the disciples and Christ on the night He broke bread. if you do not partake or not a member of the Church, then you are simply watching like a fan at a sporting event. Evesdropping from the outside through a glass window and not an active participant.
As far as intruments i dont think anyone would use an electric guitar and loud music for the Lamentations on Good Friday or for a funeral.

[Kreikkalainen]

Well, literally speaking the liturgy of St John Chrysostom is a thinned out version of the liturgy of St Basil the Great, which is a very thinned out version of the ancient liturgy of St James the Brother of the Lord, which apparently lasted for 5-6 hours (knowledgable people please correct me if I'm wrong :)). What makes it Heavenly is par excellence the Mystical Presence of all Heaven.

Do the angels in the Heavenly Liturgy play instruments? Maybe, but somehow the idea that Bodyless Powers play material instruments feels a bit weird to me. Surely the Heavenly Liturgy has been celebrated before humans discovered instruments?

In any case, I think the Heavenly Liturgy will be beautiful beyond the limits of beauty as we know it. And it'll transcend cultural differences, so it'll appear equally beautiful to all of us regardless of what culture we professed on earth. By then we will have been freed from the burdens of our earthly cultures and every other earthly burden anyway. How's that for a concluding remark? :):D

[Vasileios]

I can't find the rep link for Monica. Anyway, I can't rep all of them and it's not important enough for me to search it :P

I think the heart of the matter has been expressed in the thread and I also think that the clicking isn't that far away, wait for it :)

If I decided to explain it SouthParkily (I just invented the word) I'd say there are 6 good ways of worship! Greek, Russian, Oriental (minus some noise from living around Muslims too much), Western (minus a lot of noise but the idea is there), Hesychastic and I'll leave one blank for something I KNOW I am missing. :P

Anything else, is just either polluted with man's pride and passions or it cannot become a genuine expression of worship for the laos, the faithful who worship together.

What Monica said is very important. The US have absolutely nothing in their culture musically that will replace an english customized form of Russian chant or simple Byzantine or Georgian. That customization (fitting the notes, syllables, translating it into western notation) is more than satisfactory to give Praise to God, reverently, solemnly, in a manner beneficial for the whole congregation. That's the subtle point there, that liturgical worship involves by default the gathering of people, souls to worship God.

And there is another aspect that is a bit overlooked.
The Church. The Church has really, seriously, in a vast expanse of time and experience, with the brightest minds and souls (Saints) chosen and formed the most suitable music. And that has proven to be vocal chanting, without flashy arpeggios or trills, deep, serious, solemn, majestic, powerful to extreme but at the very same time almost SILENT, still. I am partial to Byzantine chant myself, as I find it to be the most fine-honed-to perfection form of praise musically but that is personal.

The point is that the click that you want to make with Heaven and the Worship that takes place in front of the Throne of God, is that you are clinging very much to the safety of a clear image of Heaven. We have been given some images in the book of St. John, the Apocalypse, but these are expressions of a Transfigured Reality, that our yet-to-be-transfigured minds cannot possibly accurately understand or comprehend.

What is understandable and what actually means that the liturgical worship mirrors Heavenly Worship is the actual movement of the heart and soul is identical. Worship itself. Our eyes are closed and we cannot see the reality we dwell in when we step into a Divine Liturgy but it would be interesting to read about experiences Saints had during liturgies. Read lives of Saints, if possible everyday from the internet (Saint of the day), you will find tons of gems like that, hints if you will.

Every chanter, every single person praying during liturgy (and by default that is what you are doing there), the priest are all truly worshipping in front of the Throne of God. Offering incense, prayer, all this with praising music, singing Glory to God, Glory to the Lamb, there along with the Saints, ALL of them, the martyrs, the Prophets, the Apostles and all the Angels and His Mother, our Theotokos.

We participate as best we can, the best we have to offer to God, in this worship, truly, mystically (that's one word you have to look into, I suggest with lengthy discussions with your spiritual father). When we can we build the most befitting temple to God, the icons, we try to wear our best clothes, we dress the priest in a manner befitting of the place he actually stands in front of, the thisiastirio (my English fail me), the place where the Lamb is slain.

...I'm ranting too. ;)

There is no reason or hope to try to imagine what the Angels actually look like, are they wearing clothes (made from what?), what is the instrument other than music, is it wood? Do they pluck it? See, this makes no sense. The Apocalypse is the Transfigured Reality as far as Heaven goes.

Sorry for going on and on and I hope I haven't made matters worse!
(where is the icon with the hiding smiley?)

[Shubunkin]

This explains a lot to me, too, Justin. I just thought the simplicity of worship in the Orthodox liturgical services were all very beautiful, and never questioned the "why" of it, but the cross-cultural differences of our different Churches do explain it. It is interesting and vital that we all worship together, and in the same way to be in union with each other. Even the Lutheran Church used to believe that. Now they have gone the way of rock-n-roll for the services to attract the young people, and are presently driving most of the older folks away (and into the Orthodox Church). This is what happens when worship services become one-sided. A perfect example.

[All4Christ]

I love the worship in the OCA church I go to - don't get me wrong - but....despite everything that is mentioned here...and despite the fact that the US is deeply into pop culture...why do we have Russian, Greek, Antiochian, Syrian, OCA (with roots of Russian) churches here?

If you're going to choose the most traditional - most common for hundreds of years in America...it would probably be four part harmony with a piano or organ. This would lead me to think that the Western Rite Orthodox Church would be the most American in culture created over hundreds of years. So...why do we have all of the various groups of Orthodoxy - and not one in America - like the others?

As a Protestant coming into the Orthodox Church...it sometimes felt like I had to become Russian... Why wouldn't it be okay to have music like an Anglican or Episcopalian church - if it was theologically sound - and followed the liturgy?

No offense intended....just something that has never quite been answered fully for me in the past. Parts of what was said earlier help clear things up - but not completely...

[MamaBug]

As a Protestant coming into the Orthodox Church...it sometimes felt like I had to become Russian... Why wouldn't it be okay to have music like an Anglican or Episcopalian church - if it was theologically sound - and followed the liturgy?

I've felt this way too. Sometimes I feel that Orthodox regard Western European culture as something that needs to be completely rejected rather than something that needs to be transformed. Perils of not being a true mission field I guess.