Co-Redemptrix

[Mary of Bethany]

There's a verrrrrryyyyy long thread in OBOB about whether Mary as Co-Redemptrix should be dogmatized (some Cardinals are advocating for it).

I've been thinking about what it is that bothers me (and I assume, all Orthodox) about it. We freely give the Theotokos her due (and our love) as Theotokos, and Queen of Heaven, and Intercessor. But it seems to me that titles such as Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix, even understood correctly from the RC point of view, give to Mary what is due only to Christ.

IOW, Mary should not be given those titles because she is not the originator or cause of these things. Only Christ is our Mediator, as clearly stated in Scripture, and only Christ is our Redeemer. Theotokos Mary is our perfect example of what our humanity should be/do, but no human being can be a Co-Mediator or Co-Redemptor.

Does this make sense? Do you agree or disagree with what I have said, and why? Thanks.

Mary

[Silentchapel]

I think it's silly. Using the same logic we can call the Theotokos 'Co-AnytihngChristDid' since she 'allowed' it to happen. Now, I don't mind grandeouse titles being said here and there, but making it a dogma??? NO WAY!

[Monica, child of God]

Well, in our prayers we do call her "the salvation of the Christian race" (morning prayers, Jordanville prayer book) and in certain translations of our hymns we call her mediatrix

Kontakion of the Theotokos – Tone 2

O undisputed intercessor of Christians, the mediatrix unrejected by the Creator, turn not away from the voice of our petitions, though we be sinners. Come to us in time, who cry to thee in faith, with assistance; for thou art good. Hasten to us with intercessions, O Theotokos, who dost ever intercede for those who honour thee.

So those terms are not completely foreign to our tradition. I would not want to make those titles dogmatic however. I think it confuses people more than elucidating the Theotokos' position in the Church. It is better in my view to think of them as poetry.

M.

[JustinHesychast]

I didn't want to make another thread, so I hope you don't mind me popping here with this question.

Many prayers and such and in other situations I have seen Mary called "Most Holy Mary, the Theotokos". Holy is fine, but Most Holy? Why is this used? Isn't God "Most Holy"?

[Philothei]

Most Holy means that she above of all other saints...not above Christ... in other words "Panagia" "all Holy" refers to her relationship to all other saints... Christ is not only Holy but he is God incarnated... Panagia is most Holy as she bore Christ and she lived an "all Holy life".....

She became "all Holy" by accepting God's will and following her calling .... Christ was born as a man and He is also God... Of course He is all Holy as is the Holy Spirit and God. The holy Trinity is mentioned in each Liturgy ...."Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit" . In EO church priority is always given to the God head and then to Panagia... the Mother of God.... She is all Holy out of honor ....not out of order.. What the catholic church is doing is "distorting' the God head. We know that the God head is the Holy Trinity, thus such a docrtrine will distrot the idea of God... Who would be Theotokos? another creator? A mother godess? We are bordering paganism here... or not? We are multiplying the God head...Elevating Theotokos to the level of Co-redemptrix... again 'produces' more dogma that is not there...out of the blue sky.

Of course, it comes as no suprise since it goes hand in hand with the immaculate conception.. She is once more elevated to the state of semi-godess...God gives Grace to all the faithfull. She was given Grace to be "all Holy" and she is in "special honor" among the saints. We do not and cannot "analyze" that grace or qualify or quantify it... is it more or less... God's grace cannot be qualified... it is given freely and it is a mystery.

What is happening is yet another way of the Catholic church to make up for its problematic theology... and of very poor level... Dogma such as this brings about more problems than it solves... and also it will be another sore spot between the EO and RC dialogue since the EO leaders are clearly against such a doctrine....

Philothei

[Monica, child of God]

She is the most holy of her kind. She is the most holy created being. God is not a created being.

The Theotokos is also not a source of holiness in and of herself. Any holiness she has comes from God. God however is the source of holiness.

M.

[HOPEOF9]

Mary was chosen and obeyed. Yes, it was an awesome thing, but not to raise her up above or equal to Christ, to pray to her, or worship her in any way shape or form.
It's very scary to see how many people hold her up in such high reguard as to place her in a position to be worshipped.

[Monica, child of God]

Mary was chosen and obeyed. Yes, it was an awesome thing, but not to raise her up above or equal to Christ, to pray to her, or worship her in any way shape or form.
It's very scary to see how many people hold her up in such high reguard as to place her in a position to be worshipped.

She was more than chosen: God prepared this womb from the beginning of creation. All of those geneologies in the Old Testament lead to her. She is the greatest woman ever born. No other human being has been as close to God as she is. The Jesus Christ that you worship took the flesh that bled on Calvary from Mary's body.

And she more than obeyed: Her "yes" to God reversed Eve's disobedience. And because God will not use us without our will (since he made us free creatures) our salvation came through her "yes" to the Incarnation of the Word of God.

No, we do not worship her. No, we never forget that she is human like us. But we do pray to her in the Old English sense of the word pray which means to ask. I pray you, understand this. She is in heaven with all of the saints and elders falling on their faces before God with our petitions as bowls of incense (see Revelation). And so we do ask her (pray her) to pray for us. That is not worship.

And no we do not worship her. But we do honor her as she prophesied that we would ("All generations shall call me blessed.") The Apostle Paul tells us to give honor to those who is due honor. What human is worthy of more honor than the one who brought forth our Savior from her womb?

M.

[Rick of Wessex]

Many prayers and such and in other situations I have seen Mary called "Most Holy Mary, the Theotokos". Holy is fine, but Most Holy? Why is this used? Isn't God "Most Holy"?

You might want to take a look at this great essay br Fr. Peter Gillquist, Facing up to Mary (http://www.protomartyr.org/mary.html). Hope you like it.

Rick

[ArmyMatt]

I seem to remember us using title like mediatrix when referring to the Theotokos, but I don't think I have ever heard her called a co-redeemer with Christ. I guess the thing to keep in mind that Mary is who she is by God's grace. so any title that we give her should be to remind is of that prurpose to give Him glory.

just my thoughts

[Philothei]

I seem to remember us using title like mediatrix when referring to the Theotokos, but I don't think I have ever heard her called a co-redeemer with Christ. I guess the thing to keep in mind that Mary is who she is by God's grace. so any title that we give her should be to remind is of that prurpose to give Him glory.

just my thoughts
The title we give Theotokos has to agree with the overall dogmatic nature of who God is and who Theotokos is and be in agreement. The title mediatrix which would be "mesitria' in Greek that is the one who can "mediate' to her Son is far far different from the word Co-redeemer... as it is one thing for someone to "intercede" (like a saint would) to God and Christ and another ... different case for a saint to be co-redeemer... that would mean to be a partaker of divine nature... thus to be god in her/his own rite.... And that cannot be as we distort the Holy Trinity. We add on it another God...

Also so that I do not seem one sided the "intercesion" is not only exclusive to Theotokos.. but also to many saints.. Every suplication service written about the saints and every liturgy has also prayers for the intercesion of all the saints... The reason i think for this (by St. Chrysostome and St. Basil) is that intercesion of the other saints is not of 'lesser' value rather in terms of honor ... That is she is not the only Mediatrix.... as the saints are too....The honor given to Theotokos because of her special relationship with her Son and Saviour...

[buzuxi02]

We do not randomly dogmatize teachings the way the RC does. The whole process of proclaiming a dogma for no reason is alien to Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy we only define dogma to remedy wrong belief to right belief. And these dogmas are limited to the realm of Christology not Mariology. The Virgin Mary was proclaimed Theotokos at the third council to demonstrate that it was the second Person of the Trinity that became flesh at the very moment of conception and this same God the Son who assumed humanity through the Virgin resided in her womb for 9 months.

So the question would be, what controversy will be settled by calling Mary Co-redemptrix (most likely it will have an adverse effect and be the cause of controversy) and why should such a dogma be neccesary for salvaton since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Christology of the Second person of the Trinity.

[kisstheson]

Well I am glad to see there are more level headed responses here concerning this topic. Like the OP I do not a gree with this title at all. This is a bit of stretch to call her a title that only Christ deserves and no matter how RC try to reason it out with me as I say here in New York City "fuaget about it!"

[Michael the Iconographer]

Such teachings make The Theotokos equal to Christ and thus a fourth person of The Trinity. Doing this borders on paganism.

[Monica, child of God]

The question of dogmatic definition aside, is there difference in calling the Theotokos "co-redemptrix" and "the salvation of the Christian race?" We as Orthodox know that when we address her as the salvation of the Christian race we don't mean that she saves alone. Isn't that similar to calling her co-redemptrix? If not what is the difference?

M.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The question of dogmatic definition aside, is there difference in calling the Theotokos "co-redemptrix" and "the salvation of the Christian race?" We as Orthodox know that when we address her as the salvation of the Christian race we don't mean that she saves alone. Isn't that similar to calling her co-redemptrix? If not what is the difference?

M.
No it is not the same thing. The Orthodox Church does not go arround making statements that say the actions of the Theotokos are equal to that of Christ in his crucifixion as did John Paul in his declaration of the Theotokos being Co-Redemptrix. Rome has gone way too far in its honoring of the Theotokos and it borders on deifying her.

[Monica, child of God]

No it is not the same thing. The Orthodox Church does not go arround making statements that say the actions of the Theotokos are equal to that of Christ in his crucifixion as did John Paul in his declaration of the Theotokos being Co-Redemptrix. Rome has gone way too far in its honoring of the Theotokos and it borders on deifying her.

Okay but as I said: the question of dogmatic definitions aside. Let's set aside the RCC altogether. From a purely semantic point of view is there a difference in saying that Mary is co-redemptrix and saying that she is the salvation of the Christian race? I am asking about meaning alone.

And if the terms/phrases are different, please state how they are different.

M.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Okay but as I said: the question of dogmatic definitions aside. Let's set aside the RCC altogether. From a purely semantic point of view is there a difference in saying that Mary is co-redemptrix and saying that she is the salvation of the Christian race? I am asking about meaning alone.

And if the terms/phrases are different, please state how they are different.

M.
Unless I am wrong we are being poetic in calling her the salvation of the Christian race. Rome is not being poetic, it is being theological and means every word it says about that subject.

[Monica, child of God]

But I think we mean that she is the salvation of the Christian race through her birthgiving. Don't we say that she participates in our salvation because she is a type (typos) of the Church and constantly prays for the Church? RCs who support the title mean that she is co-redeemer ("co" meaning "with") through her fiat, birthgiving and her role in the Church. Isn't it the same?

The door of compassion open unto us O blessed Theotokos, for hoping in thee, let us not perish; through thee may we be delivered from adversities, for thou art the salvation of the Christian race.

M.

[Monica, child of God]

Point of clarification: When RCs say "Co" they do not mean equal to. They mean "with" from the Latin "cum."

M.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Point of clarification: When RCs say "Co" they do not mean equal to. They mean "with" from the Latin "cum."

M.

Co-Mediatrix=all grace comes through the Holy Spirit with the Theotokos? I have a much, much, much harder time with that title than the title Co-Redemptrix. I thought all grace came solely through the Holy Spirit alone. And how could it come through the Holy Spirit with the Theotokos at Pentecost when the Theotokos was still alive on earth and had not yet gone to Heaven?

[Monica, child of God]

Co-Mediatrix=all grace comes through the Holy Spirit with the Theotokos? I have a much, much, much harder time with that title than the title Co-Redemptrix. I thought all grace came solely through the Holy Spirit alone. And how could it come through the Holy Spirit with the Theotokos at Pentecost when the Theotokos was still alive on earth and had not yet gone to Heaven?

I agree. "Mediatrix of All Graces" is much more problematic. The Theotokos is a finite human being. There was a time when she was not.

M.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I agree. "Mediatrix of All Graces" is much more problematic. The Theotokos is a finite human being. There was a time when she was not.

M.
You can see why I say these two doctrines border on deifying the Theotokos, right?

[Monica, child of God]

Well, I certainly don't agree with making them dogma, that is for sure.

Mediatrix of All Graces does seem to assign more sovereignty to her than can be seen in Scripture or the Fathers (apart from a random quote I read).

While I do not support making the title Co-Redemptrix dogmatic or think it should be used in our tradition, I don't really have a problem with it from the stand point of meaning. "With the Redeemer" is what it seems to mean and I believe our Tradition supports this. No other human being was "with the Redeemer" in the work of redemption more than Mary. Further, our devotional language seems to support the meaning of this title.


Now to God’s Mother let us humble sinners run in haste
and in repentance let us fall down before her feet,
crying aloud with fervour from the depths of our souls,
‘Sovereign Lady, help us now,
have compassion upon us,
hasten, for we perish
from our many offences.
Let not your servants go empty away;
we have you as our only hope’…

Though most unworthy, may we never by silence
fail to proclaim your mighty acts and accomplishments,
for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?
O Sovereign Lady, from all kinds of threats
you save your servants,
may we not abandon you. --from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

M.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Well, I certainly don't agree with making them dogma, that is for sure.

Mediatrix of All Graces does seem to assign more sovereignty to her than can be seen in Scripture or the Fathers (apart from a random quote I read).

While I do not support making the title Co-Redemptrix dogmatic or think it should be used in our tradition, I don't really have a problem with it from the stand point of meaning. "With the Redeemer" is what it seems to mean and I believe our Tradition supports this. No other human being was "with the Redeemer" in the work of redemption more than Mary. Further, our devotional language seems to support the meaning of this title.



M.
I disagree. Co-redemptrix goes too far. It implies Mary actually took a role in the redemption of mankind. Only Christ redeemed mankind. Yes Mary enabled Christ to do his work by her acceptance of the Incarnation, but she was not the one who was man and God and who suffered, died, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. How can a human being who is NOT God take a key role in the redemption of mankind in such a way that she deserves a special title. Theotokos is her proper title. Theotokos translates "the Godbearer." Any further titles Rome attaches to her only serve to severly blur the lines between God and man and border on paganism.

[Monica, child of God]

But judging from the meaning alone and not whether a new title should be given to her, I don't think they are saying anything that we don't say in our Tradition. Redemption and salvation are synonyms.

We believe that our salvation (or redemption) began with the Incarnation. The Incarnation would not have been possible if the Theotokos had not consented because God respects the free will H has given all of us. So in a sense, she did participate in our salvation (or redemption). If that is what Co-Redemptrix means (even if we refrain from giving it as a new title) then I don't see what is un-Orthodox about it.

M.

[Mary of Bethany]

We do not randomly dogmatize teachings the way the RC does. The whole process of proclaiming a dogma for no reason is alien to Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy we only define dogma to remedy wrong belief to right belief. And these dogmas are limited to the realm of Christology not Mariology. The Virgin Mary was proclaimed Theotokos at the third council to demonstrate that it was the second Person of the Trinity that became flesh at the very moment of conception and this same God the Son who assumed humanity through the Virgin resided in her womb for 9 months.

So the question would be, what controversy will be settled by calling Mary Co-redemptrix (most likely it will have an adverse effect and be the cause of controversy) and why should such a dogma be neccesary for salvaton since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Christology of the Second person of the Trinity.

Very good points. Thanks.

Mary

[Mary of Bethany]

But judging from the meaning alone and not whether a new title should be given to her, I don't think they are saying anything that we don't say in our Tradition. Redemption and salvation are synonyms.

We believe that our salvation (or redemption) began with the Incarnation. The Incarnation would not have been possible if the Theotokos had not consented because God respects the free will H has given all of us. So in a sense, she did participate in our salvation (or redemption). If that is what Co-Redemptrix means (even if we refrain from giving it as a new title) then I don't see what is un-Orthodox about it.

M.

I think my problem is that it gives her a title, a role in Salvation, that should not be given to any created being. Only God saves, and in Orthodox theology, Mary's obedience is something that all human beings are capable of, though none of us have done what she did. And we *all* have to participate in our salvation.

Mary

[Rhamiel]

Not all catholics are for this being declared a dogma, I do not think it would be a good thing, seeing as many people can twist the meaning co-redemtrix into something like paganism.

[Matrona]

We believe that our salvation (or redemption) began with the Incarnation. The Incarnation would not have been possible if the Theotokos had not consented because God respects the free will H has given all of us. So in a sense, she did participate in our salvation (or redemption). If that is what Co-Redemptrix means (even if we refrain from giving it as a new title) then I don't see what is un-Orthodox about it.

The reason I don't believe that title is Orthodox is because with the prefix "co-", it implies that the Theotokos's role in salvation is to do what Christ does as our Redeemer, instead of facilitating our redemption by bearing Him into the world. It implies they played the same role in the Incarnation, rather than properly differentiating between the separate roles they played in this one event. Other embellished titles they give her, like "mediatrix of all graces", or capitalizing pronouns that refer to her, serve to support the former interpretation.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Not all catholics are for this being declared a dogma, I do not think it would be a good thing, seeing as many people can twist the meaning co-redemtrix into something like paganism.
Those 2 doctrines were among the first things I found myself in open dissent with prior to the process of embracing Orthodoxy and leaving Rome.

[Mary of Bethany]

The reason I don't believe that title is Orthodox is because with the prefix "co-", it implies that the Theotokos's role in salvation is to do what Christ does as our Redeemer, instead of facilitating our redemption by bearing Him into the world. It implies they played the same role in the Incarnation, rather than properly differentiating between the separate roles they played in this one event. Other embellished titles they give her, like "mediatrix of all graces", or capitalizing pronouns that refer to her, serve to support the former interpretation.

Thank you - I *knew* someone would come along and say what was rolling around in my brain, but not coming out!

:D

Mary

[kisstheson]

With all due respect:

Though most unworthy, may we never by silence
fail to proclaim your mighty acts and accomplishments,
for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?
O Sovereign Lady, from all kinds of threats
you save your servants,
may we not abandon you. --from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

Jesus Christ, that's who! :doh:

[Thekla]

With all due respect:

Though most unworthy, may we never by silence
fail to proclaim your mighty acts and accomplishments,
for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?
O Sovereign Lady, from all kinds of threats
you save your servants,
may we not abandon you. --from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

Jesus Christ, that's who! :doh:
it refers to her intercessions (prayer) for us -- throughout the OT and NT, the strength of the prayers of the righteous is mentioned

[Monica, child of God]

The reason I don't believe that title is Orthodox is because with the prefix "co-", it implies that the Theotokos's role in salvation is to do what Christ does as our Redeemer, instead of facilitating our redemption by bearing Him into the world. It implies they played the same role in the Incarnation, rather than properly differentiating between the separate roles they played in this one event. Other embellished titles they give her, like "mediatrix of all graces", or capitalizing pronouns that refer to her, serve to support the former interpretation.

Okay hmmm. I will think about this. This is the first real differenciation between the two traditions and more of what I was looking for by way of explanation. I am still not totally convinced that we (OC and RC) are saying something different though.

Thinking...

M.

[icxn]

With all due respect:

Though most unworthy, may we never by silence
fail to proclaim your mighty acts and accomplishments,
for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?
O Sovereign Lady, from all kinds of threats
you save your servants,
may we not abandon you. --from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

Jesus Christ, that's who! :doh:
Why did you leave out this?

Deliver us your humble servants from perils, O Theotokos,
as for refuge, after God, we all flee to you,
an impregnable fortress and protection.
-- from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

If you combine the two you will understand the intent with which we pray those verses. Then there's the OT story with Moses interceding for the people and preserving them in freedom and delivering them from the terrible dangers of God's just anger with them!

[Monica, child of God]

Why did you leave out this?

Deliver us your humble servants from perils, O Theotokos,
as for refuge, after God, we all flee to you,
an impregnable fortress and protection.
-- from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

If you combine the two you will understand the intend with which we pray those verses. Then there's the OT story with Moses interceding for the people and preserving them in freedom and delivering them from the terrible dangers of God's just anger with them!

To be fair she was posting something that I had quoted in part. I focused on a particular piece relevant to the discussion at hand. As a non-Orthodox she would not be familiar with the verses that you quoted.

M.

[icxn]

To be fair she was posting something that I had quoted in part. I focused on a particular piece relevant to the discussion at hand. As a non-Orthodox she would not be familiar with the verses that you quoted.

M.
Oh! forgive me. :blush:

Η ημιμάθεια είναι χειρότερη από την αμάθεια. - Greek Proverb
(Partial knowledge is worse than ignorance)

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: I actually asked this question in the thread :) to see what people would say. There are some good replies. Here is the page:

http://christianforums.com/t6895541&page=35

God bless

monica

[kisstheson]

Why did you leave out this?

Deliver us your humble servants from perils, O Theotokos,
as for refuge, after God, we all flee to you,
an impregnable fortress and protection.
-- from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

If you combine the two you will understand the intent with which we pray those verses. Then there's the OT story with Moses interceding for the people and preserving them in freedom and delivering them from the terrible dangers of God's just anger with them!

If I need to speak to the president of the united states and the door is opened. I'm assured I'm always welcome that's where I'm headed. Why go through all that red tape when I can go right to the main Man? Jesus is The High Priest who intercedes for His people. (Hebrews 4) "Having been tempted in every way as we are yet without sisn." Jesus understands! He is my "Moses" and all the OT prophets put together. Ask Christ ti deliver you. You don't need Mary to ask Him. Jesus is more than willing to help.

[kisstheson]

Why did you leave out this?

Deliver us your humble servants from perils, O Theotokos,
as for refuge, after God, we all flee to you,
an impregnable fortress and protection.
-- from the Paraklesis to the Theotokos

If you combine the two you will understand the intent with which we pray those verses. Then there's the OT story with Moses interceding for the people and preserving them in freedom and delivering them from the terrible dangers of God's just anger with them!

"He who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out." Jesus Christ, the gospel of John. Jesus rejects none who come to Him. That's what His death is all about. Is Mary more merciful than Jesus? absolutely not.

[Thekla]

If I need to speak to the president of the united states and the door is opened. I'm assured I'm always welcome that's where I'm headed. Why go through all that red tape when I can go right to the main Man? Jesus is The High Priest who intercedes for His people. (Hebrews 4) "Having been tempted in every way as we are yet without sisn." Jesus understands! He is my "Moses" and all the OT prophets put together. Ask Christ ti deliver you. You don't need Mary to ask Him. Jesus is more than willing to help.
but we are told that the "prayer of the righteous" is strong. Paul asks others to pray for him. He prays for others.

[MoNiCa4316]

"He who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out." Jesus Christ, the gospel of John. Jesus rejects none who come to Him. That's what His death is all about. Is Mary more merciful than Jesus? absolutely not.

:wave: Hey Kisstheson! Welcome to TAW! :hug:

Well, I believe that Jesus is completely merciful and is the king of mercy! :D But I also believe that we are being transformed into people who are like Him..this is what salvation is all about..and one day, when we are complete, we would be perfect in love and mercy. Of course this would always come from God, who IS love :) but in the Bible it also says "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
So is Mary as merciful as Jesus? Well..in a way, maybe! If that's true, it would actually bring glory to God, not take it away..He is glorified when His creatures love each other.

..just my two cents..

God bless

monica

[kisstheson]

but we are told that the "prayer of the righteous" is strong. Paul asks others to pray for him. He prays for others.
This is true and I agree with you but on the other hand no one should be afraid to simply go and ask Jesus. ALL the saints in Heaven would direct us to Jesus. I believe in asking saints to pray for us but this statement I don't agree with...mostly because God does not reject us

for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?

Simple answer...Jesus...Jesus...Jesus

[kisstheson]

[quote=MoNiCa4316;44089255]:wave: Hey Kisstheson! Welcome to TAW! :hug:

Well, I believe that Jesus is completely merciful and is the king of mercy! :D But I also believe that we are being transformed into people who are like Him..this is what salvation is all about..and one day, when we are complete, we would be perfect in love and mercy. Of course this would always come from God, who IS love :) but in the Bible it also says "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
So is Mary as merciful as Jesus? Well..maybe! If that's true, it would actually bring glory to God, not take it away..He is glorified when His creatures love each other.

..just my two cents..

God bless [quote]

Thank you Monica. As always you are gracious and kind. I appreciate it. :hug:

Is Mary as merciful as Jesus? No. Mary does not forgive sin. Mary does not know what its like to hang on the cross and have God the Father turn away from her because she literally became sin. Mary wasn't stripped naked, lashed within an inch of her life, spat on and mocked. mary can only go so far in understanding the plight of human beings where as "Jesus was tempted in EVERY WAY and yet without sin." Hebrews 4 exhorts us to "approach the throne of Grace in time of need." Our merciful High Priest has mercy like no other. He is sitting on the throne ready to receive us poor sinners.

[MoNiCa4316]

This is true and I agree with you but on the other hand no one should be afraid to simply go and ask Jesus. ALL the saints in Heaven would direct us to Jesus. I believe in asking saints to pray for us but this statement I don't agree with...mostly because God does not reject us

for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?

Simple answer...Jesus...Jesus...Jesus

I totally agree that we can come to God! And that is great! :clap: But I think asking saints to pray for us is just like asking your friends to pray :) except that since they are in heaven their prayers are powerful because "the prayer of a righteous man avails much"..and they don't get distracted, etc like us on earth =) of course God hears every prayer, and loves us all equally! But you know why I think it's a great thing to pray for each other?? Because that's one way we love each other!! :) and when we love, we glorify God. I think He's so pleased when we pray for our friends, and for our enemies too! That shows that we truly care for them. Well the saints in heaven love us and desire to see us saved...they know what heaven is like and they want us to experience that same joy and love that they are experiencing with Jesus! So they intercede for us before His throne. I think that's such a gift! It's God's creatures loving each other! :clap: So if Mary prays for me.. well I think that's awesome that the Mother of my Lord would pray for me! :)

God bless you sister

monica

edit: and all prayers go to God in the end, and ultimately He decides how to answer

[Thekla]

This is true and I agree with you but on the other hand no one should be afraid to simply go and ask Jesus. ALL the saints in Heaven would direct us to Jesus. I believe in asking saints to pray for us but this statement I don't agree with...mostly because God does not reject us

for if you do not stand to intercede for us all,
Mother of our God, who then
will preserve us in freedom?
Who would have delivered us
from such terrible dangers?

Simple answer...Jesus...Jesus...Jesus
sorry if I don't explain well -- just tired -- but I'll try a bit :)

its hard to read these things "cold" -- because they belong to an understood context. The one you cited again refers to the strength of her prayers for us. And the result of her love of God -- her worship resulted in the incarnation.

when we ask others - including the Theotokos and Saints - for their prayers, we affirm that we are His body/community.

The witness and service of Abraham, Moses, etc are told. And also, we recount the strength of the Theotokos' prayers for us ...

[MoNiCa4316]

Thank you Monica. As always you are gracious and kind. I appreciate it. :hug:

:hug:

Is Mary as merciful as Jesus? No. Mary does not forgive sin. Mary does not know what its like to hang on the cross and have God the Father turn away from her because she literally became sin. Mary wasn't stripped naked, lashed within an inch of her life, spat on and mocked. mary can only go so far in understanding the plight of human beings where as "Jesus was tempted in EVERY WAY and yet without sin." Hebrews 4 exhorts us to "approach the throne of Grace in time of need." Our merciful High Priest has mercy like no other. He is sitting on the throne ready to receive us poor sinners.

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't really understand how this would mean that she is not as merciful.. How would you define mercy? :)
I think mercy is kind of like compassion...we see someone in need, someone who is lost in sin, or poor..and we have pity on them..and show them God's love.

About Mary; her mercy is not her own..it is God's, given to her by grace because of her faith and obedience, and the plan God had for her.. when Mary prays for us, she is acting on it.. btw it's the same case with us! :) when we share God's love, it is not our love, it's His..

You know the part in the Bible when John talks about living water...it's like streams of living water are flowing from within us. This does not take away from God's glory at all, but adds to it! I think that calling Mary merciful is like praising God for the work He did in her, and when she acts on this mercy, it's God acting through her in a way... and of course there is free will involved, and since she chooses to do this, we thank her.

hope this makes sense :)

[MoNiCa4316]

when we ask others - including the Theotokos and Saints - for their prayers, we affirm that we are His body/community.

That's a really good point :thumbsup: the Church exists both in heaven and on earth, and it's one Church.

[buzuxi02]

These sayings need to be taken in context of the experience and belief of those who adhere to them.

The Virgin Mary is our intercessor who being in heaven is closer to the throne of God and has more clout than we do. While this sounds alien , you must examine scripture, at the wedding feast of Cana, where Jesus Mother intercessed on behalf of the people by her own will by asking Her Son to make more wine.
Jesus complied with His Mother's request (even though he was hesitant).
Its important to remember what Mary told the servants at the wedding feast. "Whatever He says unto you, DO IT!"(JN 2.5). We are His servants and we must listen to the motherly advice of the Virgin Mary.

In Orthodoxy Mary does nothing apart from Her Son. She never seeks her own Glory. In Orthodox iconography the Theotokos is never depicted without Christ. The most popular image of Mother and Child is the Hodegetria meaning "she who shows the way" . Mary points towards Christ.
This is why theres no need for Marian dogmas. A legitimate Marian dogma never seeks Glory for Mary but for Christ. Marian dogmas should never be about Mariology but about Christology.

[kisstheson]

:hug:



I agree with what you're saying, but I don't really understand how this would mean that she is not as merciful.. How would you define mercy? :)
I think mercy is kind of like compassion...we see someone in need, someone who is lost in sin, or poor..and we have pity on them..and show them God's love.

About Mary; her mercy is not her own..it is God's, given to her by grace because of her faith and obedience, and the plan God had for her.. when Mary prays for us, she is acting on it.. btw it's the same case with us! :) when we share God's love, it is not our love, it's His..

You know the part in the Bible when John talks about living water...it's like streams of living water are flowing from within us. This does not take away from God's glory at all, but adds to it! I think that calling Mary merciful is like praising God for the work He did in her, and when she acts on this mercy, it's God acting through her in a way... and of course there is free will involved, and since she chooses to do this, we thank her.

hope this makes sense :)
Mary is merciful, yes...but earlier you said she is as merciful as Jesus and frankly...that drives me batty. :doh:

[Thekla]

Mary is merciful, yes...but earlier you said she is as merciful as Jesus and frankly...that drives me batty. :doh:
whatever anyone has that is "good" comes from God, for God alone is good. The "degree" of righteousness is another way of saying the "closeness to God". So in this sense, we can say that Lot was closer to God than his wife. The Theotokos was truly Christ-filled; she bore the Christ. Her "degree of mercy" is really the "degree to which she is Christ-filled" -- if that makes any sense ^_^

[kisstheson]

These sayings need to be taken in context of the experience and belief of those who adhere to them.

The Virgin Mary is our intercessor who being in heaven is closer to the throne of God and has more clout than we do. While this sounds alien , you must examine scripture, at the wedding feast of Cana, where Jesus Mother intercessed on behalf of the people by her own will by asking Her Son to make more wine.
Jesus complied with His Mother's request (even though he was hesitant).
Its important to remember what Mary told the servants at the wedding feast. "Whatever He says unto you, DO IT!"(JN 2.5). We are His servants and we must listen to the motherly advice of the Virgin Mary.

In Orthodoxy Mary does nothing apart from Her Son. She never seeks her own Glory. In Orthodox iconography the Theotokos is never depicted without Christ. The most popular image of Mother and Child is the Hodegetria meaning "she who shows the way" . Mary points towards Christ.
This is why theres no need for Marian dogmas. A legitimate Marian dogma never seeks Glory for Mary but for Christ. Marian dogmas should never be about Mariology but about Christology.

Now I agree 110% with this. You get two thumbs way up from me! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Mary as co-redeemer and so forth...well no matter how people dissect this I think it takes away from the glory that belongs to Christ alone. seriously that makes me fightin' mad. :doh:

[kisstheson]

whatever anyone has that is "good" comes from God, for God alone is good. The "degree" of righteousness is another way of saying the "closeness to God". So in this sense, we can say that Lot was closer to God than his wife. The Theotokos was truly Christ-filled; she bore the Christ. Her "degree of mercy" is really the "degree to which she is Christ-filled" -- if that makes any sense ^_^

I understand. Jesus Himself said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15)

Thanks. :)

[MoNiCa4316]

Mary is merciful, yes...but earlier you said she is as merciful as Jesus and frankly...that drives me batty. :doh:

I agree with what Thekla said about this.. the saints in heaven are in perfect union with Him, therefore they share in His love, mercy, etc. :) as I said, it's not like it comes from us, but all from God. To me, saying that Mary is as merciful as Jesus, is just saying that she is completely 'in Christ'.. full of grace.. but you see, the mercy in her is His mercy :) we can't invent it! it all belongs to Jesus in the end...He is glorified in His saints...

peace

monica

[kisstheson]

But...:sorry: she still is not AS merciful AS Jesus. She is just a creature. She is not Jesus. No one is as merciful as Jesus. She would have to die on the cross and go through the hell He went through. Even if she is in union with Christ she does not come near the level of Christ's mercy.

[MoNiCa4316]

But...:sorry: she still is not AS merciful AS Jesus. She is just a creature. She is not Jesus. No one is as merciful as Jesus. She would have to die on the cross and go through the hell He went through. Even if she is in union with Christ she does not come near the level of Christ's mercy.

I really believe in Christ's love and mercy, and I believe Mary loves me too... I really don't want to debate..if you disagree, that is oki :) we agree on what is truly important.

God bless :hug:

monica

[Philothei]

Mary as co-redeemer and so forth...


that should make you mad it would be strange if it did not... she is not co-redeemer...she intercedes... she is a voice to her Son... nothing more nothing less... Because of who she is in "relationship" to Him she is the All Holy otherwise she is a creature... I agree that is why she is higher in honor not ontologically as a being she is still a human who is glorified... a saint who has lived a saintly life...

She is called "merciful" because she fells sorry for us and intercedes for us not because she can GIVE mercy.... that is the difference... She feels sorry for us as she is human and understands our nature... that way she pleads to her Son. She herself CANNOT give mercy she has nothing to do with salvation.... or judgment she does not participate in this part with God... In the west they do stress that she is co-redemer and that confuses people....argggrrrr....sometimes I get so mad... that Theotokos has been so distorted ....that confuses people so much...

[MoNiCa4316]

In the Co-Redemptrix thread, they believe it's "Mary with the Redeemer", not "Mary the other Redeemer".. :)

People get confused because of the "co" part, but it's Latin, not English.. anyway, whatever the linguistics are, that is not what Catholics really believe.

(post 345 onwards: http://christianforums.com/t6895541&page=35 )

Here is what the Catholic church teaches:


As Co-Redemptrix, she is in no sense equal to Christ in his redemptive activity, since she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by her Son. He alone merited man's salvation.

[Philothei]

Monica co-redeemer means "with" but she cannot be "with" since in order to redeem with someone would mean you also have the atribute to redeem and Theotokos cannot redeem no matter how much you can stretch the fact.... I have read some of the Catholic matterial on that issue and by any stretch of the imagination there is any evidence either from tradition or the scripture for such claims.... Please do not let other heterodox dogma influence you... You are either a redeemer or you are not ... you cannot co-operate with God in reddeming humans... that is God's job... and God's alone... She intercedes for us she inclines her ear to us to listern to us and she "puts a good word" but she has no power to redeem....

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica co-redeemer means "with" but she cannot be "with" since in order to redeem with someone would mean you also have the atribute to redeem and Theotokos cannot redeem no matter how much you can stretch the fact.... I have read some of the Catholic matterial on that issue and by any stretch of the imagination there is any evidence either from tradition or the scripture for such claims.... Please do not let other heterodox dogma influence you... You are either a redeemer or you are not ... you cannot co-operate with God in reddeming humans... that is God's job... and God's alone... She intercedes for us she inclines her ear to us to listern to us and she "puts a good word" but she has no power to redeem....

:wave: Philothei, but don't we cooperate with God in our own redemption?

It is always God's job, but what if He works through people sometimes? That way, it's still Him, right?

For example, when we share the Gospel with others or praying for their salvation we are cooperating in God's plan of redemption, and participating in it...

Maybe He works through Mary in this way too, but in her case it's a little more because she is also the Theotokos and through her obedience, the Incarnation happened..

No one believes that salvation comes from Mary..

peace

monica

[buzuxi02]

:wave: Philothei, but don't we cooperate with God in our own redemption?

It is always God's job, but what if He works through people sometimes? That way, it's still Him, right?

For example, when we share the Gospel with others or praying for their salvation we are cooperating in God's plan of redemption, and participating in it...

Maybe He works through Mary in this way too, but in her case it's a little more because she is also the Theotokos and through her obedience, the Incarnation happened..

No one believes that salvation comes from Mary..

peace

monica
wait a sec Monica. Werent you a bible only protestant believer? Im confused here.

[Philothei]

You confuse free will, obedience and participating in the saving plan of God...

Free will is God's given present to us to choose Him or not to chose Him... Theotokos out of free will she consented to bring forth Christ... when the angel told her ... she could not have consented... etc.

That leads us to obedience that Theotokos consented to OBEY to God's plan and will.

God's plan was in effect and Theotokos had a special relationship with Christ she was His mother. She is a saint.

God's redemption for all creation is at works. Theotokos is a "mesitria" intercessor (according to the ECF) of Christ. She, according to tradition, like other saints also out of her love for humanity (not because she is either obligated or told by Christ) she "listens" to our prayers...and she is some type of "liaison" to her Son. As the fathers say that Christ because he is a Son of Theotokos she is special to Him... He listens to her as she is His mother...

Now about "cooperating" with God this is where the mix up is... We do cooperate with God but we do not do the redeeming... no human no saint can do that... no matter the relationship....we have with Christ. Theotokos cannot "impose" a bit more .... that is where we are going astray...dogmatically.

The only thing that Theotokos can do more .. .is intercede more ....not redeem... She cannot redeem at all and she has more grace than other saints ... she is called "Full of Grace" because of her participation (out of honor) in the incarnation.

The euphemia you hear about her by the EO fathers is all out of honor.. to her and her consent to bear Christ... not because we "know" her speicial abilities... We do not know how excacly she relates to Christ and God ... the only thing we know is that by her consent the soteriological plan of God came through ... she did not redeem us... by herself... but Christ did because of her consent to the incarnation...

The fathers were very careful with their words and very specific in the lauds she is called many beautiful things... the womb of salvation.... etc. we have to be careful not to take them literally and distort God's dogma... God (the Holy Trinity) is the one who saves, redeems and we give all Glory...

[MoNiCa4316]

wait a sec Monica. Werent you a bible only protestant believer? Im confused here.

In December :) a lot of things have changed since then brother! lol!

[MoNiCa4316]

You confuse free will, obedience and participating in the saving plan of God...

Free will is God's given present to us to choose Him or not to chose Him... Theotokos out of free will she consented to bring forth Christ... when the angel told her ... she could not have consented... etc.

That leads us to obedience that Theotokos consented to OBEY to God's plan and will.

God's plan was in effect and Theotokos had a special relationship with Christ she was His mother. She is a saint.

God's redemption for all creation is at works. Theotokos is a "mesitria" intercessor (according to the ECF) of Christ. She, according to tradition, like other saints also out of her love for humanity (not because she is either obligated or told by Christ) she "listens" to our prayers...and she is some type of "liaison" to her Son. As the fathers say that Christ because he is a Son of Theotokos she is special to Him... He listens to her as she is His mother...

Now about "cooperating" with God this is where the mix up is... We do cooperate with God but we do not do the redeeming... no human no saint can do that... no matter the relationship....we have with Christ. Theotokos cannot "impose" a bit more .... that is where we are going astray...dogmatically.

The only thing that Theotokos can do more .. .is intercede more ....not redeem... She cannot redeem at all and she has more grace than other saints ... she is called "Full of Grace" because of her participation (out of honor) in the incarnation.

The euphemia you hear about her by the EO fathers is all out of honor.. to her and her consent to bear Christ... not because we "know" her speicial abilities... We do not know how excacly she relates to Christ and God ... the only thing we know is that by her consent the soteriological plan of God came through ... she did not redeem us... by herself... but Christ did because of her consent to the incarnation...

The fathers were very careful with their words and very specific in the lauds she is called many beautiful things... the womb of salvation.... etc. we have to be careful not to take them literally and distort God's dogma... God (the Holy Trinity) is the one who saves, redeems and we give all Glory...

Philothei, the way I see it, by cooperating with God in His work of redemption, we do not become redeemers.. well Catholics that's exactly what they believe about Mary, that she is "with" Christ in this, but that it is still His work...of course she can not redeem us by herself... I don't think anyone would say that :)
She only cooperates with God as He does the redeeming ;) but since she has an important place in God's Kingdom, her cooperation means a lot, so maybe that's why she's called the Co-Redemptrix (which is not the same as Co-Redeemer).

[buzuxi02]

In December :) a lot of things have changed since then brother! lol!
Hmm fascinating, i remember reading that you had some revelation in the belief of the Holy Eucharist, and thats about it. well anyway thanx for filling me in.

[MoNiCa4316]

Hmm fascinating, i remember reading that you had some revelation in the belief of the Holy Eucharist, and thats about it. well anyway thanx for filling me in.

:) yes, it all started with the Eucharist.

[Philothei]

Philothei, the way I see it, by cooperating with God in His work of redemption, we do not become redeemers.. well Catholics that's exactly what they believe about Mary, that she is "with" Christ in this, but that it is still His work...of course she can not redeem us by herself... I don't think anyone would say that :)
She only cooperates with God as He does the redeeming ;) but since she has an important place in God's Kingdom, her cooperation means a lot, so maybe that's why she's called the Co-Redemptrix (which is not the same as Co-Redeemer).
That is an oversimplification so that we can incorporate the wording.... sorry to be so stubborn about this but simplifying God's redemption and having Theotokos "with Christ" seems a speculation.. and as always with no Biblical or/and patristic backing... Just utterly hersay...here..

Anyways not an EO dogma or position.
Philothei

[kisstheson]

Monica co-redeemer means "with" but she cannot be "with" since in order to redeem with someone would mean you also have the atribute to redeem and Theotokos cannot redeem no matter how much you can stretch the fact.... I have read some of the Catholic matterial on that issue and by any stretch of the imagination there is any evidence either from tradition or the scripture for such claims.... Please do not let other heterodox dogma influence you... You are either a redeemer or you are not ... you cannot co-operate with God in reddeming humans... that is God's job... and God's alone... She intercedes for us she inclines her ear to us to listern to us and she "puts a good word" but she has no power to redeem....

Yup! You got it! No one, absolutely no one was with Christ redeeming the world. Isaiah even says, "I looked for someone to intercede and was amazed that I found NO ONE so My own arm brought forth salvation."

This is why I'm up in arms. I really try to be calm...I really do...:prayer: but what truly is like fingernails on a chalk board is when folks take away even the tiniest bit of the price He paid to suffer for us and including Mary in that picture well...don't get me started. :ebil:

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm sorry guys I don't want to debate so I'm going to have to leave this thread.. nice talking to you all..

in my mind when people say things like this about Mary it doesn't take away from Christ's glory but adds to it..but I dunno I guess that's just me.. as I said, no one believes that Mary does anything outside of God's power and grace. I really don't understand how Mary cooperating in God's work takes away from "the price He paid to suffer for us"...oh well.. it's "with Christ", not "instead of Christ".

well God knows our hearts...

God bless

:wave:

[kisstheson]

Philothei, the way I see it, by cooperating with God in His work of redemption, we do not become redeemers.. well Catholics that's exactly what they believe about Mary, that she is "with" Christ in this, but that it is still His work...of course she can not redeem us by herself... I don't think anyone would say that :)
She only cooperates with God as He does the redeeming ;) but since she has an important place in God's Kingdom, her cooperation means a lot, so maybe that's why she's called the Co-Redemptrix (which is not the same as Co-Redeemer).

I yi yi yi yi yi yi yi! I pray to God this never becomes th offical doctrine of the RCC. Co-Redemptrix? Only Jesus...please! Let Him stand alone! I better moveon.com before I blow a blood vessel. LOL!

[buzuxi02]

I think this thread has run its course and time for it to disappear into the sunset.

[Philothei]

Yup! You got it! No one, absolutely no one was with Christ redeeming the world. Isaiah even says, "I looked for someone to intercede and was amazed that I found NO ONE so My own arm brought forth salvation."

This is why I'm up in arms. I really try to be calm...I really do...:prayer: but what truly is like fingernails on a chalk board is when folks take away even the tiniest bit of the price He paid to suffer for us and including Mary in that picture well...don't get me started. :ebil:

Intercession in the Old Testament where a superior and righteous person seeks reconciliation between God and a fallen human. Abraham's intercession for Sodom (Gen. 18), and Moses interceding for Israel (Ex. 15:25), and Melchizedek's meeting with Abraham (Gen. 14:18­20) are examples of this kind of intercession. The sacrifices of Old Testament priests were often acts of intercession. This carried over to the Levitical priesthood where men from one tribe were selected to represent the people of the other tribes to God. It was always a case of a more righteous person or group intervening and negotiating for those less favored (See Heb. 7:6). Under the law of Moses, a person not of the tribe of Levi could not serve as a priest and approach God directly, but had to go to the Creator through another person who was of the proper tribe and possessed the necessary credentials. Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi and could not be a priest on earth without a change in the law (Heb. 7:11­14). Incidentally, this shows one reason why Christians are not under the Old Covenant but under the New Covenant-the law has been changed to allow the priesthood of Christ.
Allow me to disagree that the bible does not give us examples of intercession... here some from the old Testament... there are many more from the N. Testament..

The saints of the church (militant and triumphant) the ones living and the ones who are asleep in the Lord were always valuable as intercession, praying for one another, was foundamental in Christ's teaching.

The fact that Christians ask the prayers of saints and their intercession is prefigured in the New Testament. St. Paul asks the Christian Ephesians, Thessalonians, Colossians and Romans to pray for him (Ephes. 6: 19, Thesal. 5: 25; Colos. 4: 3, and Rom. 15: 30-31). In every Liturgy, we ask God the Father to accept, on our behalf, "the prayers and the intercession" of all the Saints who now live in heaven. The Fathers of the Church also accept as a matter of course the prayers and the intercession of all the saints.

[Philothei]

intecession and redemption are two different things....

[kisstheson]

intecession and redemption are two different things....
Repeated post. Deleted. See my next response.

[kisstheson]

Why did you address your post about intercession to me? I believe in the intercession of the saints. I don't agree that Mary helped Jesus pay the price for our sins. I thought we were together on this one. no one was "with" Jesus. argggh! :scratch:

[Philothei]

because the quote you gave in your previous post talked about intercesion and I thought you also rejected that... is intercession...


"I looked for someone to intercede and was amazed that I found NO ONE so My own arm brought forth salvation."


I am afraid the translation is not that good....

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't agree that Mary helped Jesus pay the price for our sins


I don't think anyone believes that..

[Philothei]

I guess it has to do with the context and how one reads it... it is true though that intercession does not quarantee salvation...sorry my bad...

[kisstheson]

because the quote you gave in your previous post talked about intercesion and I thought you also rejected that... is intercession...


"I looked for someone to intercede and was amazed that I found NO ONE so My own arm brought forth salvation."


I am afraid the translation is not that good....

I meant when Jesus hung on the cross paying for our sins He did alone. isaiah 53 says that He made intercesion for the trangressors.

[Philothei]

Okay now that you put it in the context it makes sense ... thanks.

[kisstheson]

I don't think anyone believes that..

I disagree. When you put Mary with Jesus while He really is the One doing all the suffering you are taking away from the horror He went through. I know I get pretty dramatic about this subject :swoon: but I honestly believe that Mary would be outraged at the thought. She wouldn't even want to be in the picture. Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer. Co..with...nothing. Only Jesus. Only Jesus. He alone should get ALL the credit. No one else should even get a speck, a mention, a hint of the respect and honor that Christ alone deserves. When I get to Heaven I am not going to thank Mary for being a co-redeemer. I will be kissing Christ's feet.

[kisstheson]

Okay now that you put it in the context it makes sense ... thanks.

You're welcome.

[Philothei]

I disagree. When you put Mary with Jesus while He really is the One doing all the suffering you are taking away from the horror He went through. I know I get pretty dramatic about this subject :swoon: but I honestly believe that Mary would be outraged at the thought. She wouldn't even want to be in the picture. Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer. Co..with...nothing. Only Jesus. Only Jesus. He alone should get ALL the credit. No one else should even get a speck, a mention, a hint of the respect and honor that Christ alone deserves. When I get to Heaven I am not going to thank Mary for being a co-redeemer. I will be kissing Christ's feet.
Theotokos being so humble would not even worry about getting the credit... That is why we "honor" her for her very sainthood of her life and her humility...


He really is the One doing all the suffering you are taking away from the horror He went through...

by asking from intercession though we do not take away honor... from Him... FRom calling her and believing she is the Co-redeemer we do take away... from the God head... and that is what is wrong...

It is not that God will get upset we honor Theotokos rather that we "distrort" who God is in relationship to us... as HE is our Redeemer.

In the EO church there was no need to formulate any dogma for Theotokos for as others said it was enough for us to know she was God bearer and she participated in Christ's incarnation, and leave it to that.

[MoNiCa4316]

I disagree. When you put Mary with Jesus while He really is the One doing all the suffering you are taking away from the horror He went through. I know I get pretty dramatic about this subject :swoon: but I honestly believe that Mary would be outraged at the thought. She wouldn't even want to be in the picture. Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer. Co..with...nothing. Only Jesus. Only Jesus. He alone should get ALL the credit. No one else should even get a speck, a mention, a hint of the respect and honor that Christ alone deserves. When I get to Heaven I am not going to thank Mary for being a co-redeemer. I will be kissing Christ's feet.

I think you're misunderstanding it..but oki. I'm not going to argue.

I'm sure Jesus knows that my beliefs about Mary don't make me love Him any less. I'm sorry it sounds like that's what you are sort of implying here..

But yea I don't want to debate so I'll just leave it at that.

peace

[kisstheson]

Monica, I know you love Jesus. :hug:

[Philothei]

Sorry I came too hard on you Monica too... but truth needs to be told... I also know that you do put Christ as your redeemer... because He is God...

"and to Him belongs all Glory... and honor and worship...
"(no need to repeat that part of our Liturgy that confirms that...lol)...

[MoNiCa4316]

That's oki guys I'm not mad at you at all :hug:

I don't know what the truth is and I want God to show me..as He did before, with the Eucharist :) but I think the truth is far more complex than we understand...and it seems strange to us sometimes, and maybe it's not what we expect.

God bless

[MoNiCa4316]

I asked in the OBOB thread if they believe that Mary helped Jesus pay the price for our sins there on the Cross...or participated as a sacrifice for sin.. or if it's more about her intercession, as I believe.

I think this will clear some things up for everyone.. because maybe that first or second point is what people think of when they hear "Co-Redemptrix"..

[kisstheson]

Its already cleared up with me and I think there's a reason why its not offical RC doctrine. I plain don't agree, Also I don't think the truth is meant to be complicated. It a lot more simple to just keep ones focus on Jesus. Just let Him be the Redeemer...simple.

[icxn]

If I need to speak to the president of the united states and the door is opened. I'm assured I'm always welcome that's where I'm headed. Why go through all that red tape when I can go right to the main Man? Jesus is The High Priest who intercedes for His people. (Hebrews 4) "Having been tempted in every way as we are yet without sisn." Jesus understands! He is my "Moses" and all the OT prophets put together. Ask Christ ti deliver you. You don't need Mary to ask Him. Jesus is more than willing to help.
He is, He is... but sometimes He likes to play deaf, not that He doesn't care but because He wants us to ask the Saints and through this communication to increase the love among His servants. We are not going to be alone in Heaven and, He who said love God with all your strength and the rest, also said, love your neighbor as yourself.

We do not place the Theotokos above or even at the same level as Christ. The prayers that you quoted do not contradict this in our mind, though for you this is not the case and we understand, you are not Orthodox. Nevertheless, I like your zeal for giving God all the glory. Indeed His is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory, now and ever and to the ages of ages. Amen!

Now you Orthodox folk give the lady some baklava and a large cup of coke ;). She's been visiting us for so long and we haven't offered her anything yet.

[Mytheodos]

I like this simple description of the Theotokos..

The reverence and honour rendered to the Theotokos
is not idolatrous.
She is not the Lord,but the Handmaid of the Lord.
She is not the King,but the Throne of the King.
She is not the self-illumined Sun,but the Moon which reflects the Sun.
She is not the Fountain,but the Conduit.
She is not the bank of the River,but the bridge which carries people to the over side.
She is not the One who saves, but she is the one who leads the people to Him who saves,
thus she is aptly named"The Directress" or Odegitria.

[Monica, child of God]

kisstheson,

I am married to a man that I love and who loves me. We decided to share a life together in wedded bliss :)

But what if when my husband wanted to invite his mother to our house, I said, "I love you but I won't talk to your mother."

"Why, beloved?" he would say.

"Because I love you but I could not care less about your mother."

Does that give you some idea of what your "Jesus only" arguments sound like to us. We are a family, the household of God. Our relationship with God is not *just* one on one. Other people are involved and none more than Mary the Theotokos.

Now judging by your signature, you know that Christ is a king. Well, Mary is the "Queen mother." In the US and most modern societies, we have no real understanding of monarchy. But the fact is that in a monarchy courtly behavior is important. Even if one is on great terms with the king, one takes pains to honor his family to the point of even going through them to get to the king. We see this between Bethsheba and Solomon.

Now Adonijah, the son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba, Solomon's mother. Bathsheba asked him, "Do you come peacefully?"

He answered, "Yes, peacefully." Then he added, "I have something to say to you."

"You may say it," she replied.

"As you know," he said, "the kingdom was mine. All Israel looked to me as their king. But things changed, and the kingdom has gone to my brother; for it has come to him from the LORD. Now I have one request to make of you. Do not refuse me."

“You may make it," she said.

So he continued, "Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife."

"Very well," Bathsheba replied, "I will speak to the king for you."

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

"I have one small request to make of you," she said. "Do not refuse me."

The king replied, "Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you."


Of course 90+% of our prayers are directed to the Holy Trinity together or to one of the Persons. No Orthodox would say that we can’t go directly to Jesus. However we do retain a certain amount of formality in dealing with Jesus our Lord and Savior because it helps us to remember who He is. He is a friend but He is not a buddy. We honor Mary because she is His mother (the Queen mother), she gave the flesh that made the Incarnation possible and she constantly prays for the Church.

M.

[Dorothea]

There's a verrrrrryyyyy long thread in OBOB about whether Mary as Co-Redemptrix should be dogmatized (some Cardinals are advocating for it).

I've been thinking about what it is that bothers me (and I assume, all Orthodox) about it. We freely give the Theotokos her due (and our love) as Theotokos, and Queen of Heaven, and Intercessor. But it seems to me that titles such as Co-Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix, even understood correctly from the RC point of view, give to Mary what is due only to Christ.

IOW, Mary should not be given those titles because she is not the originator or cause of these things. Only Christ is our Mediator, as clearly stated in Scripture, and only Christ is our Redeemer. Theotokos Mary is our perfect example of what our humanity should be/do, but no human being can be a Co-Mediator or Co-Redemptor.

Does this make sense? Do you agree or disagree with what I have said, and why? Thanks.

Mary
My priest just brought that up last night. He said that it is an erroneous belief or idea.

[Monica, child of God]

My priest just brought that up last night. He said that it is an erroneous belief or idea.

Did he say why?

M.

[Dorothea]

Did he say why?

M.
I believe he said because it would put her on the same level as Christ.

[Lukaris]

It seems that the Orthodox devotions to the Theotokos derive much from the angel St Gabriel's address (Luke 1:26-38) St. Elizabeth's praise to her (Luke 1:39-45), the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-56), and the Saviour's bestowing the title "behold your mother" to St. John (& the apostles & all who hear their preaching) in John 19:27. It is also interesting to read the praises given to the martyred mother & 7 sons of 2 Maccabees 7 in the amazing homily of 4 Maccabees (regrettably dropped from the OT OSB project) which assume a most heavanly imagery, "Not so majestic stands the moon amid the stars in heaven as thou, having lit the path of the 7 starlike sons unto righteousness, standest in honor with God; as thou art set in heaven with them." (Iv Maccabees 8:5). Another immediate (post apostlic) source is St Ignatius' (who knew St.Paul) and wrote of the cosmic signifigance of the mystery of the Virgin, virgin birth, & the incarnation in his letter to the Ephesians (ca. 100 AD) (yes, the same Ephesians St. Paul wrote to) and can be found in much of the Akathist hymns in the services during the Annunciation. While such devotion may seem foreign if one is unfamiliar (understandable) it is deeply rooted to the ancient worship.

[Mary of Bethany]

Philothei, the way I see it, by cooperating with God in His work of redemption, we do not become redeemers.. well Catholics that's exactly what they believe about Mary, that she is "with" Christ in this, but that it is still His work...of course she can not redeem us by herself... I don't think anyone would say that :)
She only cooperates with God as He does the redeeming ;) but since she has an important place in God's Kingdom, her cooperation means a lot, so maybe that's why she's called the Co-Redemptrix (which is not the same as Co-Redeemer).

If I'm not mistaken, redemptrix (female) and redemptor (male) *are* the same as redeemer.

Mary

[Philothei]

the both mean redeemer....in plain english....

[kisstheson]

A lot of you seem to be misreading my thoughts. I have no problem with Mary interceding for us. I personally prefer to go straight to Jesus. My experience is He doesn't play deaf or hide from me. Sure, sometimes I don't feel His presence but this does not mean anything. We live by faith and not by feelings.

I do have a problem calling her a co-redeemer. That's too much. I do not see her with, helping Him as He suffered on the cross. That honor belongs to Him alone. And frankly it makes me very upset that people even by a fraction would want to take that glory away from Him.

"Now is the Son of Man glorfied and God is glorified in Him."

[Lukaris]

A lot of you seem to be misreading my thoughts. I have no problem with Mary interceding for us. I personally prefer to go straight to Jesus. My experience is He doesn't play deaf or hide from me. Sure, sometimes I don't feel His presence but this does not mean anything. We live by faith and not by feelings.

I do have a problem calling her a co-redeemer. That's too much. I do not see her with, helping Him as He suffered on the cross. That honor belongs to Him alone. And frankly it makes me very upset that people even by a fraction would want to take that glory away from Him.

"Now is the Son of Man glorfied and God is glorified in Him."
St Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. 180 AD) called the Theotokos the new "Eve" from which the choice of our redemption (obeying the Saviour) is derived (since she obeyed the call of Gabriel). As Eve's error put us in sin; the Theotokos obeying the will of God assisted in our redemption. It is not in dogma to refer to her as mediatrix but in praise and worship the "feel" may appear that way. We worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, the Holy Trinity, and give reverance to blessed St. Mary. No criticism towards you intended, just trying to answer your questions as best a lay person can. BTW, St Irenaeus was in apostolic succession to St. Polycarp, and the apostle St. John to understand the basis of his preaching.

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

the both mean redeemer....in plain english....

Latin, actually ;)

I am very uncomfortable with this notion. I feel as though it somewhat lessens Christ's importance... everything about Mary is supposed to point to Christ. I don't feel like the co-redemptrix thing does that.

[Dorothea]

DUH. Come to think about it...I think my priest was talking about the Assumption of Mary being a Dogma in the RCC...hinges on their salvation... being erroneous in belief. OOPS. :blush:

[kisstheson]

Latin, actually ;)

I am very uncomfortable with this notion. I feel as though it somewhat lessens Christ's importance... everything about Mary is supposed to point to Christ. I don't feel like the co-redemptrix thing does that.

I agree 100%:thumbsup:

[MoNiCa4316]

Kisstheson,

I just want to clarify something :)

Remember we were talking about God's mercy and Mary's mercy...and which one is more merciful... I think you probably misunderstood what I meant because I didn't phrase it properly. I've thought about it some more and I decided to say it another, better way:

Here's what I believe:

I believe that God's mercy is infinite. In that way, by nature, He is infinitely more merciful than any creature, including Mary. But I see her as sort of an extension of His mercy. Whaterever mercy she has for us is not her own!! It is God's, because all good things come from God... even our good deeds! They are not our own, although they still please God because He loves it when we choose to follow Him with our free will. Mary is very, very close to Jesus...she is His Mother, and lives in unity with God in heaven...so, it is probable that she is sort of filled with His mercy..do you see? That is why I said that she is 'as merciful'..I wasn't talking about the "amount"...I don't see it in terms of "amounts" at all... God's love and mercy is infinite, and Mary is with God, and He uses her to show His mercy to the world...

Would you agree with that?

peace

monica

[kisstheson]

Yes I agree. I can see that as long as you understand that she does not have the same amount of mercy as Jesus. She also can't undertand the sinner as deeply and profoundly as Jesus since Mary is said to be without sin, while Jesus was also without sin, became sin and was forsaken by God the Father, Mary did not have that experience.

[MoNiCa4316]

I believe he said because it would put her on the same level as Christ.

:wave: If that was true, of course it would very wrong. But judging from the thread at OBOB...Catholics don't actually believe that Mary is equal to Christ...I even asked ;)

[MoNiCa4316]

If I'm not mistaken, redemptrix (female) and redemptor (male) *are* the same as redeemer.

Mary

Yes, but "co" (the Latin version) need not imply any equality..

Well whatever the linguistics are, that's not what people actually believe! :)

[kisstheson]

They walk a dangerous fine line with some of the new dogma they are trying to push. This drives me nuts. :ebil:

[Rhamiel]

um... just here to remind you folk that not everybody is for this being a dogma, lots of Catholics are not for it and I for one do not think the Church will go for it

[Xpycoctomos]

Mary was chosen and obeyed. Yes, it was an awesome thing, but not to raise her up above or equal to Christ, to pray to her, or worship her in any way shape or form.
It's very scary to see how many people hold her up in such high reguard as to place her in a position to be worshipped.
Fortunately no one in OBOB or TAW are doing this.

[Xpycoctomos]

Mary was chosen and obeyed. Yes, it was an awesome thing, but not to raise her up above or equal to Christ, to pray to her, or worship her in any way shape or form.
It's very scary to see how many people hold her up in such high reguard as to place her in a position to be worshipped.
Fortunately no one in OBOB or TAW are doing this.

[MoNiCa4316]

:wave: I asked at OBOB if Mary is equal to Christ, or if she redeemed us from our sins. And everyone said no, that is not what they believe. Just wanted to let you all know.

[Philothei]

I think that we are aware that OBOB had this thread .... I thank the OP for posting that but at the same time I am dissapointed to see that it ends us just as much as a battlefield as their thread did... especially as we KNOW as EO that dogma such as this not supported by any Orthodox Church universally.

Anyone who wants to ask questions and get answers from "RC" pro co-redemtrix perspective he/she can visit their forum....I just wanted to make clear that this dogma is foreign to the official EO church.

Philothei

[Philothei]

since when and EO can talk about another Forum? Co-redemtrix does bring Theotokos in equal level with Christ....the very word does to do a "job with someone" means you participate and ONLY God can redeem... that is HIS JOB Theotokos cannot participate in redemption and salvation of this world.... as she is not of the same nature of God or Christ...


Here is an official opinion about the issue by a representative of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese.

George Passias, a Greek Orthodox priest in the U.S., told Newsweek: "Calling Mary a co-redeemer is a heresy in the simplest sense. It is one thing to ask Mary to intercede with her Son, but it is another to exalt her as the mediatrix between God and men."

[Mary of Bethany]

I think that we are aware that OBOB had this thread .... I thank the OP for posting that but at the same time I am dissapointed to see that it ends us just as much as a battlefield as their thread did... especially as we KNOW as EO that dogma such as this not supported by any Orthodox Church universally.

Anyone who wants to ask questions and get answers from "RC" pro co-redemtrix perspective he/she can visit their forum....I just wanted to make clear that this dogma is foreign to the official EO church.

Philothei

Thanks, Philothei. The reason I asked the OP question is that, as a convert, I don't always know what the full teaching is about things, and wanted to make sure that my understanding about this was in line with the Church. It was possible (in my mind) that the "idea" was not un-Orthodox, even though we wouldn't declare dogma on such things. Just wanted to be sure.

Mary

[Xpycoctomos]

since when and EO can talk about another Forum? Co-redemtrix does bring Theotokos in equal level with Christ....the very word does to do a "job with someone" means you participate and ONLY God can redeem... that is HIS JOB Theotokos cannot participate in redemption and salvation of this world.... as she is not of the same nature of God or Christ...


Here is an official opinion about the issue by a representative of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese.

George Passias, a Greek Orthodox priest in the U.S., told Newsweek: "Calling Mary a co-redeemer is a heresy in the simplest sense. It is one thing to ask Mary to intercede with her Son, but it is another to exalt her as the mediatrix between God and men."
No, Philothei, it really doesn't mean that. Co means with... not equal to. That is a very modern way of using the prefix but, as we all know, you can't apply your modern understanding to Church terminology. For example "Holy Theotokos, Save us".

And that is an opinion that we should take into account. BUt there is no such thing as an "official opinion". Opinions are by nature subjective and personal and cannot represent anything official. Dogma's are official.

WHile I feel the dogmatizing of Co-Redemprix is absurd and counter-productive for the Catholic Church and offers absolutely nothing to understnading Christ, but only serves to further confuse protestants (and, apparently, Orthodox as well) it is utterly silly that this is even being considered by the Catholic Church. They are too dogma happy and it is things like this that have and will continue to slow down any success in reunification wtih the East. They just keep nailing themselves tighter and tigher into a smaller and smaller box with dogmatizing everything from the explanation of how the Eucharist changes to what exactly happens after death and now approaching things that offer absolutely nothing to our understanding of the faith. I think the statue of Mary holding Christ or the icon of Mary holding Christ along with the very context of the Church life has told the followers in both camps (East and West) all we need to know about Mary's Role in our salvation (which is certainly existent) and will continue to do so. These cardinals need to get a reality check. All of this bugs me [and it probalby shouldn't since I am not Catholic], because this wierd penchant for dogmatizing everything in sight creates more of a hurdle and gets sooooo ridiculous.

Xpy

[Philothei]

Xry.... please ... do you understand Latin? Cum... means with... It is such a black and white issue cannot believe you see gray.....

[Monica, child of God]

Xpy is saying that co means with, not equal to. So the RCs are not claiming that Mary is equal to the Redeemer.

from the online etymology dictionary

co-
see com-.

com-
from L., archaic form of classical L. cum "together, together with, in combination," the prefix sometimes used as an intensive, from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with" (cf. O.E. ge-, Ger. ge-).

The prefix co comes from cum and does not mean equal to.

Perhaps the thing that is wrong about co-redemptrix is that is puts too fine a point on something that should be seen abstractly. We are back to the issue of poetry again. But I can't really get past our calling the Theotokos the salvation of the Christian race and why that is different from the meaning of co-redemptrix (with the Redeemer). Hair splitting to me.

But of course I am against making it dogma. It serves to clarify nothing about Christ or the Theotokos.

M.

M.

[Philothei]

"together, together with, in combination


I will say it again that theologically speaking be "together in redeeming" and act only for God (the Trinity of course) it would mean that Theotokos takes part in God's activity and she cannot since she is not of the same essence as Christ and God... NO human can be "together" with Christ in his redeeming work... It is God's and God's alone... Maybe before all of you agree or somehow try to explain the CC position you have better to read the tread from the beginning....

[Monica, child of God]

the prefix sometimes used as an intensive, from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with

They mean with. Insisting that they mean something else is just as wrong as when Protestants insist that we worship the Theotokos when we don't.

M.

[kisstheson]

No matter WHAT co-redemptrixt means I will never, never agree with it.

[Xpycoctomos]

Xry.... please ... do you understand Latin? Cum... means with... It is such a black and white issue cannot believe you see gray.....
I know what it means. There is no gray really. It means with. Like, Bush's cabinet ran the country with Bush. Bush is still the president though and in the end had the final say.

If you take an honest look at how the Catholics really view "Co-Redemprix" you will realize that as pointless as it is, it is not saying what you are attempting to say it is. No devout Catholic believes Mary is equal to Christ.

[Xpycoctomos]

They mean with. Insisting that they mean something else is just as wrong as when Protestants insist that we worship the Theotokos when we don't.

M.
Exactly.

Philothei, you are a wonderful person, but for some reason you consistently refuse to listen what the Catholics have to say about their own beliefs. You start with your agenda and push it from there only using Catholic words when they fit your agenda.

And I really only notice this with you when you speak about Catholic belief. I know you don't hate them and i know that you have respect for them (according to our many private conversations) so your unfairness toward them is completely puzzling to me.

[Xpycoctomos]

No matter WHAT co-redemtorixt means I will never, never agree with it.
Well, before you can agree or disagree with anything, you have to understand it.

[kisstheson]

I know enough. I strongly disagree. :mad:

[Rick of Wessex]

Xry,

If you take an honest look at how the Catholics really view "Co-Redemprix" you will realize that as pointless as it is, it is not saying what you are attempting to say it is. No devout Catholic believes Mary is equal to Christ.

The point here is not the exact meaning of this or that word. The point is that the doctrine of Co-Redemprix gives margin to many wrong interpretations (including the wrong belief the the Theotokos is equal to Christ).

Have you ever seen a picture or image of what the Vatican Catholics call the Holy Trinity (Jesus, a bearded old man and a dove) together with the Theotokos? Its bizarre, to say the least... it seems to imply the she is part of the Trinity (Lord have mercy!).

So, what's the point of having such a polemical doctrine?

Besides, what's the point in inventing another new dogma out of the blue? Are the "Assumption" and the "Immaculate Conception" not enough novelties?

In XC,
Rick

[Monica, child of God]

I brought up the semantic issue because I do think it is important here. The title is misleading, that is for sure. But there is nothing wrong with looking at the underlying doctrine and comparing it to our tradition including our liturgical language.

M.

[MoNiCa4316]

No matter WHAT co-redemptrixt means I will never, never agree with it.

Even if it doesn't mean anything bad? :confused:

I'm sorry you're so upset about this sister :( if it seems really wrong to you, of course you don't have to believe it..just leave it in God's hands..don't worry! :hug: He knows all our hearts, and understands why Catholics believe what they do, and why you disagree with them. I really want to assure you that this "doctrine" doesn't actually take away from Christ's glory...not in theory, not in practice..one can believe in it and still put Jesus first, and I know many Catholics who do. I know it might not seem that way at first, maybe because of how the name "co-redemptrix" sounds...but it's still all about Jesus!
But if you don't see that, that's oki! Just don't worry so much about it! We all love Jesus that's what matters! :hug:
God bless

love and prayers
monica

[Qoheleth]

We honor Mary because she is His mother (the Queen mother), she gave the flesh that made the Incarnation possible and she constantly prays for the Church.


Yes and to add a bit more to this...



"O holy Mother of God, save us." What does this mean? The Orthodox Church has taught from the very beginning that Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we aspire to become in
Christ, she already is. We are all to "receive" Christ (John 1:12). Mary was the first human being who did receive Christ. Out of the millions of "decisions" made for Christ, Mary's was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.

If the sacred Scriptures declare that we are all kings (Revelation 1:6), is it so strange that the Church refers to Mary as Queen?

If the Holy Bible promised that you and I shall judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3), is it so odd that the Church should sing that Mary is "more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim"?

If we who are called "holy brethren" (Hebrews 3:1) are commanded to be holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:15, 16)
and are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), is it so unthinkable that she whose holy body was the recipient of God Incarnate should be called "most holy" by the Church? If Saint Paul instructs us to "[pray] always . . . for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18), is it so outrageous to confess with the Church that Holy Mary (along with all the saints who have passed from death to life and continually stand in the presence of Christ) intercedes before her Son on behalf of all men? Mary volitionally relinquished her will to the will of God, thus cooperating fully with the purpose of God.


So the original question, "Can Mary save us?" leads to another question: "Can we save others?"

Again, the Holy Scriptures speak with resounding clarity.

Here are some examples:

"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and
those who hear you" (1 Timothy 4:16).

"Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:20).
"And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 22, 23).
Fire saves (1 Corinthians 3:15),
prayer saves (James 5:15),
angels save (Isaiah 63:9),
baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21),
preaching saves (1 Corinthians 1:21),
the Apostle Paul saved (Romans 11:14).


New life in Christ, or salvation, is both personal union with Him and an incorporation into the wholeness of the Body, the Church. Salvation is a Church affair, a Church concern, because we are all affected by it.

In another biblical image, salvation is seen as a family matter-God's family ("the whole family in heaven and earth"-Ephesians 3:15).

Therefore, under Christ we each have a part to play in the corporateness of His saving act. We do not save alone; Mary does not save alone. Jesus Christ is our wellspring of salvation. And He said, "Without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:7). Mary has a unique role in our salvation because she provided the physical body of Christ and thereby became the "mother" of all those who would be saved. That is why Jesus, while on the Cross, said to His mother...

"Woman, behold your son!" and then said to Saint John, "Behold your mother!" (John 19:26, 27).


Q

[Philothei]

Xry,



The point here is not the exact meaning of this or that word. The point is that the doctrine of Co-Redemprix gives margin to many wrong interpretations (including the wrong belief the the Theotokos is equal to Christ).

Have you ever seen a picture or image of what the Vatican Catholics call the Holy Trinity (Jesus, a bearded old man and a dove) together with the Theotokos? Its bizarre, to say the least... it seems to imply the she is part of the Trinity (Lord have mercy!).

So, what's the point of having such a polemical doctrine?

Besides, what's the point in inventing another new dogma out of the blue? Are the "Assumption" and the "Immaculate Conception" not enough novelties?

In XC,
Rick
I agree with you Rick there is no point to say one thing and mean another... We all agree tht cum mean "with" so .... how can the Catholics say one thing and mean another? Mediatrix I can see as she is the Mesitria..in the EO hymnology she is called the Mediator... but it is to say she is a co-redeemer and then say no ..... but ....she is not... in reality she is "with" but .... blah blah... it makes no sense... What it is a matter of interpretation? I do not buy that... and BTW Cry do not try to make me like I have an agenda... I can say the same back since you do seem to make excuses for all the Catholic doctrines like the Pope etc...These doctrines are developed later and they have nothing whatsoever to do with the Truth of the Gospel and the Councils...and the tradition of our Church.


I will say it again that all these "man made" doctrine is no different in respect from the follies that many Protestant brothers has fall into... Just because the RC has Apostolic succession and they are our sister Chruch that does not make them immuned from falling into heressy...

[MoNiCa4316]

We all agree tht cum mean "with" so .... how can the Catholics say one thing and mean another?


Philothei, do you mean that the word means "with" but Catholics are saying it's not "with", but something else? But...my impression was that they are saying that.. I'm so confused here! lol! :confused:

[Philothei]

It is called schemantics (spelling?) and where hierarchy talks theology these terms do not "vary" . When you say I am doing a Job "with John" you mean you are doing a Job together... and if you are partners ... then you have to be qualified to do it... so if you are not you either need to be 'trained' to do it... or you prepared your self and brought yourself to an equal "education" or "training" to that of John....

We cannot participate in God's redemption that is salvation and not be God... ONLY GOD DOES THAT JOB BECAUSE HE IS GOD. What would be wrong with saying that Theotokos interceeds to God??? She still participates but in an intercessiory way... not actually doing the job "WITH" God since she is not OFF GOD or part of GOD....Linguistically it does not jive... and any logical being can tell the difference ....Now if there is an agenda for "pushing ' this who knows... I agree with Rick about the icon of the Holy Trinity.... that means including Theolokos in the salvation and redemption would be okay then....

Maybe adding St. John the Baptist in the pic would be okay too then ....He was Christ's cousin, he was the forunner and a saint.. There you got your polytheism....all wraped up....

[MoNiCa4316]

hmm..I think that maybe this is focusing on words too much sister.. I guess I'm not very logical lol (that's oki though..).. we participate in God's plan of redemption by accepting His grace and living by faith..it's not something passive that happens to us (I'm sure you'd agree, because you're Orthodox :)). Is that not "with" God in a way? With as opposed to "separately".. Oki well here's how I see it: God does the job, yes, but we can unite our works, suffering, etc, to His, and thus cooperate with Him...this does not mean that we save ourselves, not at all..because it is still only the Cross that saves us...we just become part of the Cross so to speak.. I'm not sure exactly how to describe it.
I think that's what the Catholics are trying to say too..
it's a type of unity with God in His work of redemption, although in the end it is all HIS work.

[Philothei]

Yes Monica but that is not what it means in reality... In dogma you have to be very specific.. or we would not be fighting over one letter in homousios and homeousios... There were councils that the FAthers fought for the truth and language had to do with it...

Of course we are all partakers of Divine Grace, salvation and redemption bBUT we do not MAKE decisions with God ....GOD alone is the judge of who and how ans when His redemption goes to.... We are the recipients of this redemption and so is Theotokos... We cannot overcome the fact we are united with God in his energies not his essence... Redemption that aquires judgment is part of God's realm not ours... He can only redeem

I will try to explain it also as such... Theotokos took part in God's plan... She was the one who participated in her "human capacity" in the historical plan of God... Her consent was her choice as she obeyed God's will. Now God's redemption of the world is Christ's as it is His judgment. Salvation (and redemption) is God's alone trhough Grace...where in this do we see Theotokos other than her being the intercessor to her son?

The word redeem that means to save ... does not have any conotation of nothing else than participation in his redemption and judgment.. because redemption does not stop with the incarnation... continues with the judgment with grace that only God can do... So now can you see the problem??

[MoNiCa4316]

Philothei, I see what you are saying, but I do not think any informed Catholic believes what you are arguing against. The Co-Redemptrix idea does not state at all that Mary is involved in making decisions about salvation or judgement, etc.. it is still God's work..and only Christ's blood paid for our sins.. Mary's suffering is not redemptive, only Christ's is. She just participates in His plan as the Mother of Christ (and our Mother).."woman with the Redeemer".. :) I really tried to understand this from the Catholic perspective and I went to the thread and read everything, asked questions..and people there didn't say anything different than what I'm saying now.. Co-Redemptrix doesn't mean that Mary does the actual redeeming (or decides who it goes to)..

What it does mean, is that Mary participated in God's plan of redemption by giving birth to Jesus (because the Incarnation is a part of God's redemptive plan, not JUST the Cross), becoming our Mother, praying for our salvation, uniting her suffering to Jesus' redemptive suffering on the Cross, etc... This is not exclusively Catholic doctrine. That is what I believe is meant by 'co-redemptrix'. When we help to bring someone to salvation, we are being 'co-redemptors' in a way too, because we are participating in God's plan of redemption... BUT...it is still God's work, and all glory goes to Him, and only His blood paid for our sins, and only He decides who to save, how to judge, etc. We just cooperate with Him and say 'yes' to His plan..and so did Mary, but in a greater way :)

I've been reading about this for a while and it seems tha