What does Torah observant mean for Messianic Jews?

[Aronbengilad]

Hi. What exactly do Messianic Jews mean when they say they are Torah observant? Do they follow the Halakah?

Why are non-Jews keeping the distinctive Jewish customs? Isn't this Judaizing?

[The Thadman]

Hi. What exactly do Messianic Jews mean when they say they are Torah observant? Do they follow the Halakah?Depends on the Messianic. All "Torah Observant" Messianics I have seen so far use the Torah as the very foundation of their faith. When it comes to halacha, however, a Karaite like myself takes issue with following certain halacha as a breach of Torah, where a Rabbinic Messianic would take issue with a Karaite not following halacha as a breach of Torah. :)

Why are non-Jews keeping the distinctive Jewish customs? Isn't this Judaizing?Messianics believe that all who have come to minister to God are required to keep the commandments in the Torah as what is layed down in Isaiah 56, various parts of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy (one Torah for the native born, and for the foriegners (gentiles) ), and throuought the teachings of Jesus (throughout the Gospels) and Paul (Acts especially). As a result, following Torah does carry a bit of Jewish culture with it, as going back far enough you'll find that almost all Jewish practices are in some way related to the practice or interpretation of Torah. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Aronbengilad]

If non-Jewish Messianics keep Torah the same as Jewish Messianics then what was the Council of Jerusalem all about? It is one thing for a Jewish Messianic to keep the customs of their own people but surely non-Jewish believers keep the customs of their own culture. why all this play-acting by Goys pretending to be Jewish? It just doesn't sit right with Jewish people. It is one thing to get an appreciation of Jewish roots and observe Jewish ways such as attending Messianic Jewish celebrations but non Jews putting on tefillin and wearing tallis katan and being shomer kashrut and shomer Shabbat just doesn't seem what Paul was talking about at all. Aren't they proud of their own culture and people?

[Aronbengilad]

Thadman,


What do you mean by being a Messianic Karaite. Does this mean you were born a Karaite and then became a believer in Yeshuah? Or do you mean that you don't accept the oral Torah as taught by Rabbinic Judaism like the Karaites?

[simchat_torah]

It just doesn't sit right with Jewish people. It is one thing to get an appreciation of Jewish roots and observe Jewish ways such as attending Messianic Jewish celebrations but non Jews putting on tefillin and wearing tallis katan and being shomer kashrut and shomer Shabbat just doesn't seem what Paul was talking about at all.
Since when were the mitzvot concerning Kashrut, Shabbat, taffilin, & the Tallit considered merely 'cultural' and not instituted in the Torah?

Curious,
Yafet

[simchat_torah]

What do you mean by being a Messianic Karaite. Does this mean you were born a Karaite and then became a believer in Yeshuah? Or do you mean that you don't accept the oral Torah as taught by Rabbinic Judaism like the Karaites?
I'm quite sure that Thadman will want to answer on his own behalf, but I believe he is stating that he is a Messianic who feels the correct path of observance is in Karaite Judaism. I personally have not met any messianics who were previously karaites.


-Yafet

[Aronbengilad]

Yafet,

Jewish people do not consider these things as necessary for non-Jews to observe. For customs such as donning tefillin and tallis katan are time related commandments not required of women and children and thus not necessary for Goyim. The Apostles ruled that it was not necessary for non-Jews to observe these customs except for the few mentioned in Acts at the Council of Jerusalem. While it is important that goyim keep their own day of Rest and honouring Hashem they do not need to do it in the distinctive way of Jewish culture and custom.

If one is not born a Karaite I am sure the Karaite community would be horrified to hear someone is claiming to be a Karaite just as it is a sham for non Jews to be acting like Rabbinic Jews.

Do all Messianic Jews believe as you do or is there other opinions.

I think it is wonderful that actual Messianic Jews (those of Jewish background or ancestry) are becoming more observant of the specifically Jewish aspects of the Torah. This is the work of Ruach ha Kodesh. this is part of preserving the Election and witnessing power of our vocation as Israelites. This also may help offset the assimulation of Jewish children into the the sea of the Goyim. For Jewish people these observances are of a refining and sanctifying value when united and transformed in the understanding and light of the coming of Mashiach. They are performed with great kevanah gazing into the deep mysteries of the Divine Heart (Leb) and its 32 paths of Chokmah. If they are observed legalistically then instead of life they will bring death to the soul.

[simchat_torah]

Jewish people do not consider these things as necessary for non-Jews to observe.
I understand. However, there is a difference between cultural and Torah based Judaism. You specifically charged:
It is one thing for a Jewish Messianic to keep the customs of their own people but surely non-Jewish believers keep the customs of their own culture..... Aren't they proud of their own culture and people?

Cultural Judaism would be things like Gefilte fish or speaking Yiddish. Torah based Judaism examples would be observance of Shabbat or Kashrut.

For customs such as donning tefillin and tallis katan are time related commandments not required of women and children and thus not necessary for Goyim.
I'm not sure how they are 'time related'. I do agree that they are not required of women and children. However, if a gentile has been circumcised and follows HaShem, they are required to follow all of the Torah, including donning the tallit and tefillin, despite their messianic beliefs (Lubavitchers, Bar Kochbians, messianics who believe in Y'shua, etc).

The Apostles ruled that it was not necessary for non-Jews to observe these customs except for the few mentioned in Acts at the Council of Jerusalem.
Actually, a closer reading would show that they ruled the observance of said customs were not required for minimal salvation... aka "G-d Fearers" (those just turning to HaShem). But then Ya'acov continues by stating they should attend synagogue on Shabbat to learn the rest of torah (see verse 21).

While it is important that goyim keep their own day of Rest and honouring Hashem they do not need to do it in the distinctive way of Jewish culture and custom.
No where in the Torah do I see HaShem establishing the idea that 'its ok' to follow paganism. Many goyim turned to HaShem to embrace the Torah and its pure path. Maybe you want to argue that not all of Torah is necessary for a goy, that's fine... we can discuss this... but to say " it is important that goyim keep their own day of Rest" is just plain not supported scripturally. sorry.

If one is not born a Karaite I am sure the Karaite community would be horrified to hear someone is claiming to be a Karaite just as it is a sham for non Jews to be acting like Rabbinic Jews.
I don't see how on one hand it is ok for a goy to follow Karaite Judaism, but not for a goy to follow Rabbinic Judaism. This seems like a double standard to me.

Do all Messianic Jews believe as you do or is there other opinions.

Oy, what a quesiton ;)

I would say that I am in the minority of messianics. I actually attend a Jewish synagogue, and not a messianic one. I (to my best abilities) follow all of Torah, conservative halacha, and Jewish customs. I come from Jewish lineage on both sides of my parents but was raised in somewhat of a secular home.

Most messianics attend a messianic congregation, follow some Torah, observe little halacha, and few Jeish customs. Most are goy and not of Jewish blood.

I think that because of these contrasts, I tend to view things a bit differently than your average messianic. However, even aside from my beliefs, Messianic Judaism is as colorful as the rainbow itself. There is no overseeing council, no main denomination, and no Beit Din. Unfortunately, this leads to "do as you please" type of Messianic Judaism.

I guess what I'm saying is that, no... most do not believe as I do.

I think it is wonderful that actual Messianic Jews (those of Jewish background or ancestry) are becoming more observant of the specifically Jewish aspects of the Torah. This is the work of Ruach ha Kodesh. this is part of preserving the Election and witnessing power of our vocation as Israelites. This also may help offset the assimulation of Jewish children into the the sea of the Goyim.
Yes! There seems to be a global Teshuvah these days, eh?

Truly wonderful.

For Jewish people these observances are of a refining and sanctifying value when united and transformed in the understanding and light of the coming of Mashiach. They are performed with great kevanah gazing into the deep mysteries of the Divine Heart (Leb) and its 32 paths of Chokmah. If they are observed legalistically then instead of life they will bring death to the soul.
This is truly an interesting perspective.

Thank you Aronbengilad.

Shalom,
yafet vbmenu_register("postmenu_8108978", true);

[The Thadman]

If non-Jewish Messianics keep Torah the same as Jewish Messianics then what was the Council of Jerusalem all about?

How I see it was that it was over how to treat rabbinic traditions. In Acts we see a phenomena in the text that makes this distinct. In the first verse of chapter 15, we see that men from Judea were claiming that one had to be circumcised in accordance to the custom of Moses in order to be saved. Later on in verse 5, someone in the sect of the Pharisees claimed, referring to the same problem, that one had to be circumcised according to the law of Moses in order to be saved.

Pharisees make no distinction between the oral and written laws. Hence these heavy burdens, these yokes that were too hard to bear (v10) would not be the commands of the Torah, as Torah was the breaking of a yoke (Leviticus 26:13). Instead the council of Jerusalem meant to loose the heavy halacha of the Pharisees.

Note that in verses 19-21, the decide not to trouble the gentiles with this. Instead they asked them to adhere to 4 simple things that would allow them to enter the synagogues to learn Torah every week, and follow it one step at a time, just like it was revealed to Moses and the Hebrews.

It is one thing for a Jewish Messianic to keep the customs of their own people but surely non-Jewish believers keep the customs of their own culture. why all this play-acting by Goys pretending to be Jewish? It just doesn't sit right with Jewish people. It is one thing to get an appreciation of Jewish roots and observe Jewish ways such as attending Messianic Jewish celebrations but non Jews putting on tefillin

I agree that tefillin are a custom, that although based on Torah, are not commanded by Torah (otherwise, we'd have to have things tied to our throats, chests, and wrists as well).

and wearing tallis katan

A tallit and/or tallit katan is based off of Torah, but I do believe that it is more culturally Jewish. Wearing tzitzyot one one's clothing, however, are commanded in Numbers and Deuteronomy. Talits are only worn during prayer, usually, so I don't think that they qualify, but tallit katan's do the job well enough :)

and being shomer kashrut

Kosher is Biblical. Jesus defended its proper interpretation in Matthew 15 and Mark 10 against the rabbinic custom of yadayim: The Pharisees believed that by not washing one's hands up to the elbows before one ate that their food was

and shomer Shabbat

Once again, it's one of the 10 Commandments. We must do no work on the 7th day of the week (Saturday).

Peace!
-Steve-o

[The Thadman]

Thadman,


What do you mean by being a Messianic Karaite. Does this mean you were born a Karaite and then became a believer in Yeshuah? Or do you mean that you don't accept the oral Torah as taught by Rabbinic Judaism like the Karaites?

"Karaite" simply means "Scripturalist," of whom I believe Jesus was the first of his era. I am one by definition and practice. As you said in your latter comment, I do not accept Oral Torah as authoritative. There is a formal Jewish (Non-Messianic) Karaite movement today in Israel, but I do not belong to them :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[WildCelt]

I don't see how a Gentile voluntarily placing himself/herself under submission of the Torah out of love and obedience to HaShem's eternal Word can be seen by Jews as play-acting. If observing Shabbat is good for Jews, why isn't it good for all? Abstaining from pork? OTOH, the Jerusalem Council never mentioned murder--is that okay for a goy?

I am proud of my culture and heritage, but it has nothing to do with what I believe. (If that were the case, I'd be worshipping Cernunnos, not HaShem ;))

Having said that, at this point in time, I could not see myself donning a kippah/tallit/tefilin, out of a sensitivity to cultural Jews, but not because I think they are irrelevant. If I am led by HaRuach in the future to do so, I will do it!

[Aronbengilad]

The Karaites are an ancient group of Jews who split off from the Rabbinic Jews. They are a distinct community with their own customs, traditions and culture. Being a Karaite is alot more than Just not accepting the Talmud.

However I must apoligise as I have been informed that I am debating and thus I am breaking the rules because I am not a Messianic apparently. I wish you the best in your discussions and may the Ruach ha Kodesh guide you in your journey. I really only came here to find out what Messianic Jews thought and I guess I will just have to read what you write and leave it at that. Slichah, I didn't mean to butt in where I wasn't wanted. Shalom.

Two Jews Three Opinions!

[Talmidah]

However I must apoligise as I have been informed that I am debating and thus I am breaking the rules because I am not a Messianic apparently. Aronbengilad,
You have asked questions to find out what messianic Jews believe. Would you like to share with us where your beliefs lie?

[Aronbengilad]

Talmidah

I am what one could call a 'Torah observant' Hebrew Catholic. I was formerly Orthodox Jewish. For this reason I was curious to see what Torah observant Messianic Jews believed. I was surprised here that it seemed as if they were encouraging non Jews to be Torah observant in the Jewish way. I believe that all believers in Mashiach are brothers and sisters in the Lord and free to follow him in a way appropriate to their culture and background. Certainly all Believers should be torah observant in the sense of keeping the ten commandmenta and the spiritual and moral laws. However the people of Israel and each individual Jew within the Universal and Mystical Body of Mashiach have a special election or vocation of Witness for which certain aspects of the Torah and mitzvot apply and not to others just as some Torah mitzvot apply only to men and some only to women. For non Jews to start to keep those aspects of Torah which is only appropriate to Jews seems to confuse the role of Israel to me. To educate non Jews in the wisdom of Torah is wonderful but for them to then start to dress and act like Jews seems very strange to me. I hope this post has not broken the rules but please let me know if it has.

[Talmidah]

Talmidah

I am what one could call a 'Torah observant' Hebrew Catholic. I was formerly Orthodox Jewish. For this reason I was curious to see what Torah observant Messianic Jews believed. I was surprised here that it seemed as if they were encouraging non Jews to be Torah observant in the Jewish way. I believe that all believers in Mashiach are brothers and sisters in the Lord and free to follow him in a way appropriate to their culture and background. Certainly all Believers should be torah observant in the sense of keeping the ten commandmenta and the spiritual and moral laws. However the people of Israel and each individual Jew within the Universal and Mystical Body of Mashiach have a special election or vocation of Witness for which certain aspects of the Torah and mitzvot apply and not to others just as some Torah mitzvot apply only to men and some only to women. For non Jews to start to keep those aspects of Torah which is only appropriate to Jews seems to confuse the role of Israel to me. To educate non Jews in the wisdom of Torah is wonderful but for them to then start to dress and act like Jews seems very strange to me. I hope this post has not broken the rules but please let me know if it has.
Thank you for clarifying. I am not a mod, but I don't think this post would break the rules. If you are not messianic, you are not supposed to challenge or argue with the views/beliefs/posts of the members here. That makes sense because this is their forum and they should not have to be on the defense here.

I understand where you are coming from. I'm kind of on the opposite side. I am not messianic either, although I was at one time. When I was, I struck by the many non-Jews 'acting Jewish', but without a clear understanding of the foundation. The men would be there with their kippa and tzitzit, and then right after services, go out to eat. The kitchen was not kosher...things like that. But, I have also gotten to know messianics whose hearts long only to get closer to G-d. As they learn more about Torah, they desire to fulfill all of the mitzot they can, to obey G-d as best they can with what they learn. These are not interested in the outward trappings of Judaism, but are seeking ways to apply Torah to their lives. I think there is a big difference between the two, even if one would disagree in theory with both groups.

If you want to learn about their beliefs, I believe you are encouraged to both read and post questions. You just shouldn't come off as antagonistic or begin arguing if you don't agree with someone's answers. These are a wonderful group of people and, if you're sincere in seeking understanding, are more than happy to explain their beliefs.

[Henaynei]

Torah is only mandated upon the Jewish people, true - but it has always been that non-Jews were allowed, even encouraged to take up the cloak of Torah (as seen all through Torah) - until the last 2000 years when doing so could get whole villages of Jewish people burned in their homes.

During this time the "evangelical" flow of Israel has been stymied, if you will. But today even the Chabad are "reaching out" to Jew and non-Jew and encouraging a turn toward HaShem. Those Noachides that want to move from g-dfearers to a deeper observance are indeed encouraged by Chabad to study to conversion (after the traditional 3 denials).

Non-Jewish Messianics are only encouraged to obey what Torah HaShem has laid upon their hearts to date - and to grow if they are so drawn. Torah obedience is not necessary for salvation..... but we are invited to obey by the Jerusalem counsel in Acts who gave us the minimal foundation for "drawing near" and then encouraged us to go "every week" to the synagogue to "hear Moses taught." He who hears and does not learn and obey is most sorrowful among men.......

For those of us not born to Judaism, Torah obedience is an act of love and submission, not an act of mandate or obligation. For the vast majority conversion will never be available - but then, neither is it our purpose or goal in observance. Love of HaShem is.

(NOTE) there IS a real problem with "wannabeJews" in Messianic Judaism, I'll not deny that. But they are not there because anyone encouraged them to Torah. Quite the contrary - it is another phenomena entirely. These want some supposed special blessing or esoteric experience with HaShem but are insistant on taking only those mitzvot they particularly "feel good" about or that they think are special in some way. They are quick to shove aside with "New Testament" explainations those mitzvot that discommode or challenge them in uncomfortable ways. For some blessed reason you will find that few if any of these stick around this forum very long. I know of none like this here now, but I have been wrong before ;) ..... (END NOTE)

As to "culture." In these days most caucausians have so many biologically connected ethnicities from which to choose that few have any way to have a strong allegiance to any one or another. I have a very strong connection and allegiance to the American culture - but that in and of itself is a widely diverse and divergant panorama, not a concrete or delinated expression. Which of my some 12 ethnic ancestrial cultures would I chose?? Why should I chose the Cherokee or the Negro or the Welsh or the Spanish over the unknown?? :)

For those interested, there are numerous books that deftly address this issue in very informative manners. :) You can find many just googling or surfing the Messianic sites on the web.

[Talmidah]

Man, I wish I could speak (type) as eloquently as Henaynei!!!!!!!

[Henaynei]

Man, I wish I could speak (type) as eloquently as Henaynei!!!!!!! LOL - you said it GREAT - in fact your comments motivated me go back and edit mine!! We are in tandem :) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_201.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[Aronbengilad]

I wouldn't worry as I think you both express yourself very clearly. Thank you for your response to my post. I had heard negative criticism from Jewish people about Messianics as Goys who dress in kippa and tallis in order to lure in Jews and proselytize them. Do Messianic Jewish organisations have a process of conversion for those Goys who feel the way you say? What does it involve if they do?

[Talmidah]

I wouldn't worry as I think you both express yourself very clearly. Thank you, Aron. :)

I had heard negative criticism from Jewish people about Messianics as Goys who dress in kippa and tallis in order to lure in Jews and proselytize them. I hear the same things, and to a certain extent it is true. There is a fair amount of deception in the messianic movement, although I couldn't say if it is a small percentage of the entire group. In my shul, there is a couple from Guatemala. When they came to this country a few years ago, they knew very little english and were looking for a synagogue to attend. They met someone who invited them to their synagogue, telling them it was a conservative synagogue (never mentioned 'Yeshua' or 'messianic'. It took them a while to realize what was going on and they came away with a very negative view of these people. I have heard of older people being targeted for this type of thing as well. But again, this may be just a small faction within the messianic movement as a whole.

Do Messianic Jewish organisations have a process of conversion for those Goys who feel the way you say? What does it involve if they do? I have heard of one group that does conversion...I don't know if it is more widespread (I'm sure the messianics here would know more about this than I.) The thing is though, if someone wants to be considered 'Jewish', a conversion done by a messianic group would not work. None of the Jewish denominations would accept it and neither would Israel.

[Aronbengilad]

Talmidah


You said you were once a Messianic but aren't now. What are you now? You mention your shul. Are you now Orthodox Jewish? Just curious so if you would rather not say that is fine.

[I’m_Lesha]

I have a question about being Torah observant. Is it alright if I post it here or should I start a new thread?:confused:

Waiting for a reply.;)

Peace and blessings,

Lesha

[Talmidah]

Talmidah


You said you were once a Messianic but aren't now. What are you now? You mention your shul. Are you now Orthodox Jewish? Just curious so if you would rather not say that is fine.
Aronbengilad,
Sorry, I didn't notice this post until right now. I attend a conservative synagogue.

Shalom! :wave:

[Aronbengilad]

Thanks In Australia we only have Reform or Orthodox and of course Messianic no conservative that I know about. How do Reform and Conservative differ?

[Henaynei]

I have a question about being Torah observant. Is it alright if I post it here or should I start a new thread?:confused:

Waiting for a reply.;)

Peace and blessings,

LeshaLesha, Shalom ;) Yes - you may ask your question!!! :) :)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Henaynei]

does this mean you don't believe in Yeshuah any more?I am sorry to remind you that this subforum is not the place for this question. I ask that you take this to PM.

This subforum is only for the discussion (questions and answers) on how to keep Torah.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator
http://www.nehemiah-center.org/Henny.jpg

[I’m_Lesha]

Thank’s Henaynei.:)

My question is, in order to say one is Torah observant what exactly would that mean?

I know that Torah means God’s law, and I understand about keeping the commandments and Sabbath and the laws of kosher. Is this enough to say that one is Torah observant, or does it mean to also keep the feasts? And is there anything else?

Peace and blessings,:angel:

Lesha

[Henaynei]

Thank’s Henaynei.:)

My question is, in order to say one is Torah observant what exactly would that mean?

I know that Torah means God’s law, and I understand about keeping the commandments and Sabbath and the laws of kosher. Is this enough to say that one is Torah observant, or does it mean to also keep the feasts? And is there anything else?

Peace and blessings,:angel:

Lesha Admittedly, I, and others, use Torah observant too loosley......

To be Torah observant means that you have incorporated the obedience to the nearly 300 commandments (of the 613 Torah commandments G-d has given us in Torah) that can be kept without the Temple and Priesthood in existance, and (for most of us) while living outside Israel, into your minute by minute daily life - all day - every day. Total immersion and incorporation and integration of these Laws into your existance, your breath. This includes not just the feast and festivals, but the laws of keeping kosher, the laws of Shabbat and those of Family Purity - just as starters......

Most of us who claim the title Torah Observant actually keep a rather diluted level of observance which, in comparison to the vast majority of other MJs around us, looks "Observant." But if compared to those who are **truly** observant - the Orthodox as an example - our observance is shown up for it's actual anemia.

For most of us who DO attempt to keep and grow in keeping Torah a trem like "Torah persuant" or "Torah positive" would be more accurate.

NOW TAKE NOTE:
Torah observance is NOT necessary for salvation OR for a relationship with Yeshua, especially for the Goyim (gentiles). IF a goy choses to take up the path of following Torah out of a love for Yeshua and His people, the Jews - this is welcomed and seen as a great blessing! BUT IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO SALVATION.

I hope this helps some.......