Lutheran Communion

[benedictine]

Do Lutherans belive in Transubstantiation? In other words, do you believe that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Christ? ---Pax Deo.

[Protoevangel]

We believe in the Real Presence of Christ, but we do not believe in Transubstantiation.

The Lutheran church believes that the Body and the Blood of Christ are present, but the bread and wine continue to be bread and wine.
Transubstantiation however, is the teaching that the bread and wine change into the body and blood of Christ.

[SiSSYGAL]

I thought only the Catholics believed in transubstantiation. Do some Lutheran synods?

[Lotar]

Transubstubstantiation is the Catholic metaphysical definition of the eucharist. Basically they say the bread turns into flesh and the wine turns into blood, and they only look and taste like bread and wine. The Lutheran understanding is that the bread is flesh and the wine is blood, but the bread and wine are also still bread and wine.

[ChiRho]

Transubstubstantiation is the Catholic metaphysical definition of the eucharist. Basically they say the bread turns into flesh and the wine turns into blood, and they only look and taste like bread and wine. The Lutheran understanding is that the bread is flesh and the wine is blood, but the bread and wine are also still bread and wine.

Very concise! We do not attempt to explain this mystery that is Holy Communion...we accept and trust the very words of God and leave the matter settled.

"Take, eat...this is My Body...This is My Blood...given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins."


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[JVAC]

Now usually by this time in the old PRE board, you would have someone say, no they aren't :D . However, it is true, that is Christ's body and blood that we consume, and the Lutheran Church, (same thing in the Anglican church and Eastern Church) does not undertake the task to explain this divine miracle.

-James

[Lotar]

Transubstantiation was just another product of Aquinas' sofism, an innovation that led to other innovations, such as eucharistic adoration.

[benedictine]

Eucharistic Adoration?

[Protoevangel]

Eucharistic Adoration?Praying to the bread.

:eek:

Yup.

[Polycarp1]

Now usually by this time in the old PRE board, you would have someone say, no they aren't :D . However, it is true, that is Christ's body and blood that we consume, and the Lutheran Church, (same thing in the Anglican church and Eastern Church) does not undertake the task to explain this divine miracle.

-James
I'm going to invoke CCM long enough to pass through here and say AMEN! to that post. :)


"Eucharistic adoration" is not precisely "praying to the bread" but remaining in prayer to and contemplation of Christ symbolized by and Really Present in the consecrated bread. It's not something I personally have any use for, but to be fair to those who do practice it, one ought to get the right definition of what one is discussing. AFAIK few if any Lutherans and only the highest-churchmen of Anglicans practice it; it's pretty specifically a Catholic practice. But if we reject it, we ought to be clear on what it is we're rejecting, not work from a misunderstanding of it. (Hope this isn't an offense to your forum -- we Anglicans and you Lutherans are so close together on so many issues that I sometimes forget I'm not in my own forum! :))

[Lotar]

I'm going to invoke CCM long enough to pass through here and say AMEN! to that post. :)


"Eucharistic adoration" is not precisely "praying to the bread" but remaining in prayer to and contemplation of Christ symbolized by and Really Present in the consecrated bread. It's not something I personally have any use for, but to be fair to those who do practice it, one ought to get the right definition of what one is discussing. AFAIK few if any Lutherans and only the highest-churchmen of Anglicans practice it; it's pretty specifically a Catholic practice. But if we reject it, we ought to be clear on what it is we're rejecting, not work from a misunderstanding of it. Adoration is litteral worship of the bread. Now, they don't believe they worshipping bread, as by their definition, there is nothing left of the bread, and there is nothing but Christ there before them. Eucharistic adoration is specifically forbidden in the Lutheran confessions, in the Solid Declaration of Concord it is stated most explicitly.

Veneration and respect, there's no problem with that, because Christ is truly and substantially present. But there is still bread and there is still wine, and since Christ alone should be worshipped, worship of the Eucharist should not take place.

(Hope this isn't an offense to your forum -- we Anglicans and you Lutherans are so close together on so many issues that I sometimes forget I'm not in my own forum! :))
No offense, always glad to have you around. :)

[Protoevangel]

I'm going to invoke CCM long enough to pass through here and say AMEN! to that post. :)

"Eucharistic adoration" is not precisely "praying to the bread" but remaining in prayer to and contemplation of Christ symbolized by and Really Present in the consecrated bread. It's not something I personally have any use for, but to be fair to those who do practice it, one ought to get the right definition of what one is discussing. AFAIK few if any Lutherans and only the highest-churchmen of Anglicans practice it; it's pretty specifically a Catholic practice. But if we reject it, we ought to be clear on what it is we're rejecting, not work from a misunderstanding of it. (Hope this isn't an offense to your forum -- we Anglicans and you Lutherans are so close together on so many issues that I sometimes forget I'm not in my own forum! :))Hey my brother Polycarp1,

As far as I am concerned, you are always welcome here, always!

Worship of the Eucharist

"'The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist . . . adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful and carrying them in procession" (CCC 1378).

If the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist were not true, this would be the most monstrous idolatry: bowing to bread and worshipping wine! And if it is true, then not to adore is equally monstrous.

Eucharistic adoration has transformed many lives and parishes. Pope John Paul II has said, "'The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease" (CCC 1380). In one sense, you are correct. They do not see it as worshiping bread, they see it as worshiping Christ. The bread is no longer bread, it is truly Christ. As non-Catholics, however, we do not see it that way. The bread is still bread.

The issue was not that I misrepresented the Catholic Church, it is that I presented it from a non-Catholic perspective. It is good that you called me on that, for I do not wish to create any unnecessary strife among my Catholic brothers and sisters.

[SPALATIN]

Real Presence is not Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation. Lutherans believe that by adding the word to the elements that the Real Presence of Christ is in them. To explain anymore is to defy the mystery.

[JVAC]

I'm going to invoke CCM long enough to pass through here and say AMEN! to that post. :)You know, CCM is an all the time everywhere thing? :wave: Feel free to post here, you are basically a pseudo-Lutheran, by means of CCM :D.

Nice to hear from you my :priest: Episcopal Brother!


-James

[SPALATIN]

You know, CCM is an all the time everywhere thing? :wave: Feel free to post here, you are basically a pseudo-Lutheran, by means of CCM :D.

Nice to hear from you my :priest: Episcopal Brother!


-James
A Pseudo-Lutheran? That's funny.