Lay preaching.. transatlantic difference?

[SirTimothy]

So at St. H's we're fairly unusual to have three clergy for a small parish, one retired and one who works for another organisation, but we have three gifted preachers. But nonetheless, we still have at least one member of the parish who used to be a licensed lay preacher (we call them lay readers) who preaches occasionally and a few others who preach sporadically.

My home parish has I think five or six licensed Readers, meaning that the incumbent clergyman preaches maybe once a week in a normal schedule of two services a week, the Readers doing the other services. This is not abnormal in the CofE--my uncle (Vicar in the Sheffield Diocese) has often said that he doesn't really like to preach more than one sermon a sunday and if the laity want more than one service... they can preach at it!

The office of Lay Reader is different across the pond, what does it entail? Do Anglican/Episcopal churches have lay people preaching regularly, or would it be rare to be found in any of your parishes?

The other thing that is intruiging is how adult education takes place. Both here and in the UK, local churches have a series of house groups which handle education. No formal teacher or leadership, but with discussion, debate, etc and it's assumed that we grow together, yet in the USA y'all have adult sunday school and things like that?

EDIT: It just occured to me it might be a churchmanship thing. I've only really attended Evangelical and low church parishes... does anyone in the UK find a difference in this? Do higher church parishes have less lay preaching?


Tim

[Secundulus]

My home parish has I think five or six licensed Readers, meaning that the incumbent clergyman preaches maybe once a week in a normal schedule of two services a week, the Readers doing the other services. This is not abnormal in the CofE--my uncle (Vicar in the Sheffield Diocese) has often said that he doesn't really like to preach more than one sermon a sunday and if the laity want more than one service... they can preach at it!

The office of Lay Reader is different across the pond, what does it entail? Do Anglican/Episcopal churches have lay people preaching regularly, or would it be rare to be found in any of your parishes?
I think in the TAC this is unheard of. Only ordained clergy are licensed to preach as far as I know. Lay readers are only licensed to read the Epistle and assist at the altar.

In the event that an ordained clergy is not available, then the Lay Reader will read a sermon prepared by one of the Clergy. Kind of like back in the days of using the Cranmer's Book of Homilies.

[higgs2]

We don't have any lay readers in our parish. I'm not sure if that is a common term here or not. Our priest does almost all the preaching. He loves to write and preach sermons, though.

We don't have house groups. There are weekly soup suppers with some sort of program afterwards. Our rector leads the program.

[Finella]

In my experience, lay preaching is an option in only some TEC dioceses. My parents were both "licensed" lay readers in the Diocese of Chicago, but all this meant was that they could read the Epistle and serve the chalice at Eucharist. They also got to wear funky medallions as a sign of their office. From what I understand, they could have also become licensed to preach in addition to this, but that was at the rector's discretion. (And, to my mom's dismay at the time, the rector was not interested in allowing my parents to do this.)

All this was 20+ some years ago, so things may have changed since then in that diocese. In PA I have on rare occasion seen lay persons preach, but I think this was at the sole discretion of the rector and the lay person was not required to be licensed.

Adult "christian formation" (the current buzzword) at my last parish was sort of as you describe, Tim, like a discussion group with themes running through the liturgical year. Sometimes we had additional speakers come and present on a book or topic for added zest. And yes, these sessions occurred simultaneously with sunday school for the kids. And like higgs' parish, once a month there would be a formal evensong followed by a simple meal with a guest speaker.

[higgs2]

In my experience, lay preaching is an option in only some TEC dioceses. My parents were both "licensed" lay readers in the Diocese of Chicago, but all this meant was that they could read the Epistle and serve the chalice at Eucharist. They also got to wear funky medallions as a sign of their office. From what I understand, they could have also become licensed to preach in addition to this, but that was at the rector's discretion. (And, to my mom's dismay at the time, the rector was not interested in allowing my parents to do this.)

All this was 20+ some years ago, so things may have changed since then in that diocese. In PA I have on rare occasion seen lay persons preach, but I think this was at the sole discretion of the rector and the lay person was not required to be licensed.

Adult "christian formation" (the current buzzword) at my last parish was sort of as you describe, Tim, like a discussion group with themes running through the liturgical year. Sometimes we had additional speakers come and present on a book or topic for added zest. And yes, these sessions occurred simultaneously with sunday school for the kids. And like higgs' parish, once a month there would be a formal evensong followed by a simple meal with a guest speaker.

One thing we do have is Lay Eucharister Ministers, a couple of them actually. So in addition to the tons of home communion visits our priest makes we have a team who regulary goes to a nursing home to distribute communion.

[SirTimothy]

So out of interest, are there more people in the Permanent Diaconate in the USA? The post of Lay Reader is, in many parishes effectively the post of unordained Deacon, since they are licensed to preach, read the gospel, as well as being the normative Lay Eucharistic Ministers (along with Lay Pastoral Workers)

Licensing for Lay Eucharistic Ministers is fairly easy, at least in this province, we have six or seven at St. Helena's. Basically they have to sign a form saying they agree to Anglican Eucharistic beliefs (although they do not have to be confirmed, merely regular communicants and members of the parish) and then they are given a license by the bishop.

[Secundulus]

So out of interest, are there more people in the Permanent Diaconate in the USA? The post of Lay Reader is, in many parishes effectively the post of unordained Deacon, since they are licensed to preach, read the gospel, as well as being the normative Lay Eucharistic Ministers (along with Lay Pastoral Workers)

Licensing for Lay Eucharistic Ministers is fairly easy, at least in this province, we have six or seven at St. Helena's. Basically they have to sign a form saying they agree to Anglican Eucharistic beliefs (although they do not have to be confirmed, merely regular communicants and members of the parish) and then they are given a license by the bishop.
In TAC we do not have Lay Eucharistic Ministers (not allowed). We do have deacons and subdeacons.

[karen freeinchristman]

So out of interest, are there more people in the Permanent Diaconate in the USA? The post of Lay Reader is, in many parishes effectively the post of unordained Deacon, since they are licensed to preach, read the gospel, as well as being the normative Lay Eucharistic Ministers (along with Lay Pastoral Workers)

Licensing for Lay Eucharistic Ministers is fairly easy, at least in this province, we have six or seven at St. Helena's. Basically they have to sign a form saying they agree to Anglican Eucharistic beliefs (although they do not have to be confirmed, merely regular communicants and members of the parish) and then they are given a license by the bishop.
This is my experience, too. In addition, Lay Readers, at the discretion of the Bishop and priest (and usually with further training), can do funerals.

[Finella]

I think the permanent diaconate is a growing order in the US, though I'm not sure about numbers compared to other countries. I think I'v e known vocational deacons in about half the parishes I've attended.

Oh, that's right, my parents, as Lay Readers, could also lead non-eucharistic services, and often did for a small mission church affiliated with our parish. Things like evening prayer. And we have Lay Eucharistic Ministers here, and I know they do that in Michigan, too.

[ChaliceThunder]

We have many lay readers in our parish - however none of them preach. On occasion I and another lay associate on staff preach.

[Polycarp1]

Diocese of Central New York, ECUSA -- Lay readers undergo a short training course. Licensed by the Bishop to read, and to bear the chalice if they choose and add on that element of the training. Entitled to read Old Testament lesson and Epistle. Entitled to lead Morning and Evening Prayer with the consent of/in the absence of the Rector. (Barb and I did for a time read Evening Prayer as a parish event -- very small turnout but nonetheless worth the doing. Our friend Ed led Morning Prayer each Sunday for a very small parish in a nearby village which could not support a priest; one Sunday a month a retired priest doing supply for several parishes would celebrate Eucharist. On one memorable occasion Ed "read the Mass" for him -- he was present and celebrated but had laryngitis so while he consecrated the elements and "said" the service in a whisper, Ed read the Eucharistic Prayer aloud in his behalf. He claims he's the only layman ever to validly and licitly concelebrate the Eucharist. :D

Diocese of North Carolina: Readers of the lessons are locally trained and not licensed by the Bishop. Chalice bearers are, for a set term (three years, IIRC). Lay Eucharistic Ministers to the Ill and Infirm (LEMIIs -- "lemmies") are also licensed, and use the liturgy for communion of the sick, of course using elements from the morning's Eucharist. They are formally commissioned each week during the service to take communion to specific individuals -- not so much to authorize their doing so (they are licensed to do it) bt to make their communicants' communions a part of the parish's communion that week, by being verbally directed by priest and congregation, with prayer, to serve as their representative in carrying the Eucharist to those who were unable to attend.

In neither case were they licensed to preach -- the Bishop retained authority to preach to his priests and deacons, and a handful of seminary-trained laity teaching at universities. Individual laity could and did preach with sermon pre-written and pre-approved by the Rector. People like Ed in CNY who led Daily Office Sunday services used (read) "canned" sermons produced by some national group affiliated with ECUSA.

[No Swansong]

We need them if we don't have them. I have heard exactly ONE good Anglican preacher, and no it was not our current (or former) pastor. Thinking about it, it was an Australian who's name now escapes me. It amazes me that an individual can spend at least 7 years of school beyond the high school level learning to preach and spread the gospel and no Anglicans can do it well.

[ChaliceThunder]

John, there must be a horrible lack of good preachers in your area. That is sad.

I was lucky enough to work for 5 years with the most gifted preacher and pastor I may ever meet. But he is now the Bishop of Chicago.

[Albion]

This sounds like an abuse equivalent to the practice, common before the Reformation, of priests too bored with church work farming out everything possible to seminarians. Lay readers are not preachers. They are licensed for short periods of time and are not empowered to preach or distribute communion. They normally should be used for special projects such as conducting Morning or Evening Prayer in a nursing home. Secundulus mentioned lay EUCHARISTIC ministers, which we do not have in Continuing Anglican dioceses, but these are a fairly recent development. They're mainly found in the Roman Church because of its shortage of clergy. Deacons would do that work if the church had enough of them.

[higgs2]

John, there must be a horrible lack of good preachers in your area. That is sad.

I was lucky enough to work for 5 years with the most gifted preacher and pastor I may ever meet. But he is now the Bishop of Chicago.

I have heard some fabulous sermons from Episcopalian preachers, including several bishops. Our rector is a terrific preacher. One thing I really appreciate about Episcopal sermons is that they are not the focus of the service, like in some non-sacramental churches.

[higgs2]

This sounds like an abuse equivalent to the practice, common before the Reformation, of priests too bored with church work farming out everything possible to seminarians. Lay readers are not preachers. They are licensed for short periods of time and are not empowered to preach or distribute communion. They normally should be used for special projects such as conducting Morning or Evening Prayer in a nursing home. Secundulus mentioned lay EUCHARISTIC ministers, which we do not have in Continuing Anglican dioceses, but these are a fairly recent development. They're mainly found in the Roman Church because of its shortage of clergy. Deacons would do that work if the church had enough of them.

It sounds like lay readers might have different reponsibilities in the UK than in the US.

[No Swansong]

John, there must be a horrible lack of good preachers in your area. That is sad.

I was lucky enough to work for 5 years with the most gifted preacher and pastor I may ever meet. But he is now the Bishop of Chicago.
I suppose that is possible, perhaps you can point me to mp3's that have good Anglican preaching. I have heard scores of Anglican priests and at least 6 Anglican Bishops.

As for an earlier comment by another poster. Jesus didn't say go out and give Communion, (although very important indeed) He said to Baptize and Preach the Gospel..

[ebia]

I suppose that is possible, perhaps you can point me to mp3's that have good Anglican preaching. I have heard scores of Anglican priests and at least 6 Anglican Bishops.

As for an earlier comment by another poster. Jesus didn't say go out and give Communion, (although very important indeed) He said to Baptize and Preach the Gospel..
Perhaps you are working on different expectations about what constitutes a good sermon.

That said, there are plenty of Anglican priests who are poor or indifferent preachers.

[SirTimothy]

This sounds like an abuse equivalent to the practice, common before the Reformation, of priests too bored with church work farming out everything possible to seminarians. Lay readers are not preachers. They are licensed for short periods of time and are not empowered to preach or distribute communion. They normally should be used for special projects such as conducting Morning or Evening Prayer in a nursing home. Secundulus mentioned lay EUCHARISTIC ministers, which we do not have in Continuing Anglican dioceses, but these are a fairly recent development. They're mainly found in the Roman Church because of its shortage of clergy. Deacons would do that work if the church had enough of them.

Ah, well in the British style Anglicanism [found in this province too] we tend to believe that a wide diversity of preaching style and content brings a greater depth to the congregation's spiritual life. Under no circumstances would we consider it an abuse--and would consider the American Episcopal view to be an abuse in fact--an abuse of and by your clergy.

I will go on record as saying that I think any Priest who is not doing his most to make sure the gifts present within his congregation are not used to the fullest and believes he is the best suited to any job is an egomaniac with a poor understanding of how a church should operate. I am quite sure within every congregation in the world that there are more gifted preachers than most Priest allow. I was fortunate in my parish back home in that we encouraged lay preaching, now I think either six or seven lay readers/preachers. I can tell you from experience it's a tremendous blessing for the congregation. From the oldest reader who is in his seventies who has so much godly wisdom and experience to impart to the congregation, to the mother of four who is one of the best Bible expositors I've been privileged to hear--far better than many of the theology scholars that I've heard preach. None of them are called to the ordained ministry of full-time pastoral care, yet they all hear a calling from God to minister to the congregation in this way.

I'd also note that it's not uncommon to find a congregation like this one in the UK--around 200 people, yet only one minister. Not due to lack of funding, but merely due to a lack of good clergy. The Priest is a great preacher and a fantastic guy, who is just about to be promoted to a very senior position within the diocese could not possibly cope with doing everything a church requires.

We are, Peter tells us, all part of the Holy Priesthood of God. The Episcopal BCP has it right in the Catechecism that the 'Primary Ministers of the Church' are the laity. The Ordained priests are there to ensure that the sacraments are distributed in good order, and that the Gospel is duly preached.

[higgs2]

I don't know that there is an "American Episcopal view" that only the priest should preach. I think it's just less common to have lay preachers in some areas here than what you are used to. I know that some churches in my diocese have lay preachers, but they aren't called "lay readers". I would think of lay readers as being what we call "lectors", who read the lessons and the Prayers of the People.

I do agree with you that the duty of the the rector is to use the gifts present in the parish to the fullest. Interestingly enough, we do have a lay person tomorrow who our rector invited to speak about church camp during the sermon time.

Ah, well in the British style Anglicanism [found in this province too] we tend to believe that a wide diversity of preaching style and content brings a greater depth to the congregation's spiritual life. Under no circumstances would we consider it an abuse--and would consider the American Episcopal view to be an abuse in fact--an abuse of and by your clergy.

I will go on record as saying that I think any Priest who is not doing his most to make sure the gifts present within his congregation are not used to the fullest and believes he is the best suited to any job is an egomaniac with a poor understanding of how a church should operate. I am quite sure within every congregation in the world that there are more gifted preachers than most Priest allow. I was fortunate in my parish back home in that we encouraged lay preaching, now I think either six or seven lay readers/preachers. I can tell you from experience it's a tremendous blessing for the congregation. From the oldest reader who is in his seventies who has so much godly wisdom and experience to impart to the congregation, to the mother of four who is one of the best Bible expositors I've been privileged to hear--far better than many of the theology scholars that I've heard preach. None of them are called to the ordained ministry of full-time pastoral care, yet they all hear a calling from God to minister to the congregation in this way.

I'd also note that it's not uncommon to find a congregation like this one in the UK--around 200 people, yet only one minister. Not due to lack of funding, but merely due to a lack of good clergy. The Priest is a great preacher and a fantastic guy, who is just about to be promoted to a very senior position within the diocese could not possibly cope with doing everything a church requires.

We are, Peter tells us, all part of the Holy Priesthood of God. The Episcopal BCP has it right in the Catechecism that the 'Primary Ministers of the Church' are the laity. The Ordained priests are there to ensure that the sacraments are distributed in good order, and that the Gospel is duly preached.

[pmcleanj]

John, there must be a horrible lack of good preachers in your area. That is sad.

I was lucky enough to work for 5 years with the most gifted preacher and pastor I may ever meet. But he is now the Bishop of Chicago.
The catechist who baptized me, then the Dean of our Cathedral, went on to become the Dean of our principal Anglican seminary. His performance from the pulpit demonstrated well how impeccable were his teaching credentials. And when he didn't preach we got the Archdeacon Thain, whose sermons always approached the level of a post-graduate theology lecture. I was in heaven every Sunday, to hear those gentlemen. Later I was blessed to hear regular sermons from Dr. Peter Craigie and from dear Dr. Herbert O'Driscoll.

But despite all those riches of world-class sermons, I still envy my senior engineer who, years ago on Sunday evenings in Glascow, would go to regular lectures held by William Barclay himself. Barclay held his attention and taught lessons memorable decades later -- but my guy's reason for going was probably more to hang with his mates afterward.

I wonder just how often we under-appreciate such gifts!

[higgs2]

The catechist who baptized me, then the Dean of our Cathedral, went on to become the Dean of our principal Anglican seminary. His performance from the pulpit demonstrated well how impeccable were his teaching credentials. And when he didn't preach we got the Archdeacon Thain, whose sermons always approached the level of a post-graduate theology lecture. I was in heaven every Sunday, to hear those gentlemen. Later I was blessed to hear regular sermons from Dr. Peter Craigie and from dear Dr. Herbert O'Driscoll.

But despite all those riches of world-class sermons, I still envy my senior engineer who, years ago on Sunday evenings in Glascow, would go to regular lectures held by William Barclay himself. Barclay held his attention and taught lessons memorable decades later -- but my guy's reason for going was probably more to hang with his mates afterward.

I wonder just how often we under-appreciate such gifts!


I think many people under-appreciate the gift of a sermon sophisticated and academically rigorous enough to "approach the level of a post-graduate theology lecture" :) Not enough bells and whistles perhaps.

[Albion]

Ah, well in the British style Anglicanism [found in this province too] we tend to believe that a wide diversity of preaching style and content brings a greater depth to the congregation's spiritual life. Under no circumstances would we consider it an abuse--and would consider the American Episcopal view to be an abuse in fact--an abuse of and by your clergy.

I will go on record as saying that I think any Priest who is not doing his most to make sure the gifts present within his congregation are not used to the fullest and believes he is the best suited to any job is an egomaniac with a poor understanding of how a church should operate. I am quite sure within every congregation in the world that there are more gifted preachers than most Priest allow. I was fortunate in my parish back home in that we encouraged lay preaching, now I think either six or seven lay readers/preachers. I can tell you from experience it's a tremendous blessing for the congregation. From the oldest reader who is in his seventies who has so much godly wisdom and experience to impart to the congregation, to the mother of four who is one of the best Bible expositors I've been privileged to hear--far better than many of the theology scholars that I've heard preach. None of them are called to the ordained ministry of full-time pastoral care, yet they all hear a calling from God to minister to the congregation in this way.

I'd also note that it's not uncommon to find a congregation like this one in the UK--around 200 people, yet only one minister. Not due to lack of funding, but merely due to a lack of good clergy. The Priest is a great preacher and a fantastic guy, who is just about to be promoted to a very senior position within the diocese could not possibly cope with doing everything a church requires.

We are, Peter tells us, all part of the Holy Priesthood of God. The Episcopal BCP has it right in the Catechecism that the 'Primary Ministers of the Church' are the laity. The Ordained priests are there to ensure that the sacraments are distributed in good order, and that the Gospel is duly preached.

Higgs was certainly right in noting that the experience in the UK is different from that in the USA (and not just the Episcopal Church). But you seem to have identified it as something caused by a shortage of clergy, so it can't just be a good idea to spread the responsibility around.

And to clarify, it WAS considered an abuse in the late Middle Ages when preachers did not preach. That wasn't my personal observation or characterization.

Good Preaching by pastors became one of the more important themes of the Reformation, and it's why the sermon and pulpits still are more prominent in Protestant worship and church buildings than in Catholic ones.

As for the Episcopal BCP, it's interesting that you should have mentioned this, since you are referring to the 1979 book which, at its introduction, stirred a lot of criticism because of doctrinal insertions such as the one you quoted. Although you are responding to my post, I thought it was clear that I was not speaking as a representative of TEC, which I am not, and especially so since others posting before me had handled that.

[No Swansong]

I think many people under-appreciate the gift of a sermon sophisticated and academically rigorous enough to "approach the level of a post-graduate theology lecture" :) Not enough bells and whistles perhaps.
A good lecture does not necessarily make a good sermon, nor is a gifted lecturer necessarily a good preacher.

[No Swansong]

I think many people under-appreciate the gift of a sermon sophisticated and academically rigorous enough to "approach the level of a post-graduate theology lecture" :) Not enough bells and whistles perhaps.
I think too many people confuse a good lecture with a sermon. Oh the itching ears.

[karen freeinchristman]

A good lecture does not necessarily make a good sermon, nor is a gifted lecturer necessarily a good preacher.
:amen: