Debate Invite: Praying to the Saints is questionable.

[theseed]

Recently, I started a thread about praying to the Saints, in which I began to do some exhaustive research. Long story short, the mod locked the thread up before it got nasty (not because of me) :holy: .

I have done even more work now, and I think it would recieve the most appreciation by all if I used it in my first formal debate here on CF. I don't want it all to go to waste:sigh: .

I wish to keep this debate short. Since I'm new, I would reather only debate one other person. We each have 1 OP, one rebuttal, maybe two, and then we each wrap it up. I want to have the first post.

Here is the outline that I will follow. You can use it (reversed) to make your arguments.

I. Praying to the dead is unlawful

II. "Communion of the sains" does not demand that we pray to the dead.

III. Proponants misinterpret key biblical texts.

IV. It is neither necessary, nor more helpful

V. Earliest traditions, archeology, and historical does not support it in adequate.

I will have parts to each outline just to be informative. You only have to chose certain parts to focus on if you wish. I would like to go over the 5000 charactor limit. I may need 5000-7000 charactors, including spaces. My outline does not see all that big though. It's not a long read imo.

Note that I refere to those Christians who do pray to the canonized Saints has proponants. I consider my self an opponant. I ask that you use this terminolgy so we can avoid denigrating any group of Christians. I do however, state which groups, in the beginning" are proponants--for informative purposes.

I am will to give just about as much time as is needed between posts, I ask that you do the same for me. I suggest though that it not take more than a month:D


It is my sincerist desire that all, formostly, will learn from this. And only secondly, consider changing thier theology :priest: .


One in Christ, The Seed. :wave:

[vrunca]

Peace of Christ Jesus to all!!

I recently was talking with a friend who is not Catholic, but is Christian...Baptist to be exact. Well, he was really having a hard time accepting Mary as being the mother of our Savior and the fact that we (Catholics) pray to the saints, which includes Mary for intercessions...which I mean by this, praying with us to the Father. The accusations were all the same...we worship Mary and the saints...we believe that Mary and the saints can make miracles happen...which I just feel so bad for those poor misinformed souls who think Catholics think this way! But anyway, while I was being "questioned" by my friend about my faith...his own 8 year old daughter looked at him and said: Daddy please don't hate Mary and the saints just because you hate the Catholic faith.

I only had one thing to say...Amen.:)

[theseed]

Peace of Christ Jesus to all!!

I recently was talking with a friend who is not Catholic, but is Christian...Baptist to be exact. Well, he was really having a hard time accepting Mary as being the mother of our Savior and the fact that we (Catholics) pray to the saints, which includes Mary for intercessions...which I mean by this, praying with us to the Father. The accusations were all the same...we worship Mary and the saints...we believe that Mary and the saints can make miracles happen...which I just feel so bad for those poor misinformed souls who think Catholics think this way! But anyway, while I was being "questioned" by my friend about my faith...his own 8 year old daughter looked at him and said: Daddy please don't hate Mary and the saints just because you hate the Catholic faith.

I only had one thing to say...Amen.:)
Thank you for the anecdote and comments.

It looks like that I will have to post my thread in Christian Apologetics. I have not finished yet though, due to my new job, and changes in my sleeping schedule--leaving me tired.

[Father Rick]

If you are interested... I would enjoy debating this issue.

I must clarify up front that while I feel venerating saints is both scriptural and traditional, I do not feel it is necessary.

If this debate does get going, I would probably be a good 'moderate' point of view.

[theseed]

If you are interested... I would enjoy debating this issue.

I must clarify up front that while I feel venerating saints is both scriptural and traditional, I do not feel it is necessary.

If this debate does get going, I would probably be a good 'moderate' point of view.
I'm not sure if I still want to do it. I've not finished my oginal outline--after a month!

I've been busy in doing other things, and I'm not sure if this subject is worthwhile for me to invest my time in. I think that my time can better be spent arguing or doing things that are not has trivial in the big scheme of things.

I still intend to finish my outline though, and starte a thread in Ecclesiology. We could simply post both sides and be done with it--let others decide what thye think :idea:

[Father Rick]

Whatever works best for you...

[nyj]

II. "Communion of the saints" does not demand that we pray to the dead.

For the record, theseed, praying to members of the Church Triumphant (those who have obtained Heaven) is a devotional practice for Catholics (and I believe the Orthodox as well), and is not required of the faithful. So this second point would be a strawman argument.

[theseed]

For the record, theseed, praying to members of the Church Triumphant (those who have obtained Heaven) is a devotional practice for Catholics (and I believe the Orthodox as well), and is not required of the faithful. So this second point would be a strawman argument.
So the Saints don't have to hear us for "Communion of the Saints" to be true? That is what I have been told by Roman Catholics.

[Father Rick]

So the Saints don't have to hear us for "Communion of the Saints" to be true? That is what I have been told by Roman Catholics.??????

Communion of the Saints is that those who have gone on before us in the Lord are aware of what is taking place here on Earth.... "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" ...and the Church is made up not only of those alive on the Earth today but ALL believers, past and present.

Since those who are in Heaven now are aware of what is happening on the Earth, and are in communication with God, then it just makes sense that they can talk to God about what is happening here on Earth.

'Praying to the Saints' is a misnomer in that you are not actually asking a saint to do something for you, but rather asking the saint to pray for you-- since they are there in Heaven with God and are already communicating with Him.

The equivalent would be if I were not feeling well or were going through a difficult time and I asked my friend to pray for me. I have 'prayed' to my friend to pray for me. This is exactly what one is doing... asking a saint (who no longer is bound by earthly limitations such as tiredness, etc) to pray for us.

This is why it is a devotional issue. Just a matter of prayer, much like going to a prayer group where everyone takes turns praying for each other.

[theseed]

??????

Communion of the Saints is that those who have gone on before us in the Lord are aware of what is taking place here on Earth.... "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" ...and the Church is made up not only of those alive on the Earth today but ALL believers, past and present.

Since those who are in Heaven now are aware of what is happening on the Earth, and are in communication with God, then it just makes sense that they can talk to God about what is happening here on Earth.

'Praying to the Saints' is a misnomer in that you are not actually asking a saint to do something for you, but rather asking the saint to pray for you-- since they are there in Heaven with God and are already communicating with Him.

The equivalent would be if I were not feeling well or were going through a difficult time and I asked my friend to pray for me. I have 'prayed' to my friend to pray for me. This is exactly what one is doing... asking a saint (who no longer is bound by earthly limitations such as tiredness, etc) to pray for us.

This is why it is a devotional issue. Just a matter of prayer, much like going to a prayer group where everyone takes turns praying for each other.
I've heard this before.

[Col]

Because of Christ, we are able to pray directly to God in Jesus' name.
What is questionable is the theology behind those who feel that this is not enough or that it is possible to get "priority service" if you mention an influential dead person. Praying to saints is a "man made" practice and trivialises Christ's sacrifice. I think it is sad that some "Christians" seem to feel they need to put distance between themselves and God when Christs' purpose was to teach us to do the opposite and show us all how to have a personal relationship with God.