Just some questions!

[sarahbug]

Hi! :wave: I've been in a "question asking" mood lately over at the Catholic board, so I thought in all my seeking, I'd come here too. :) Hopefully no one minds! :D

I really don't know much of anything about Anglican beliefs, which is why I'm here, to learn more! My first question is, are Anglican's protestants? Like I said, I'm pretty uneducated on this faith, so I need to start with the very basics. :) Also, if they are not protestant, how do they differ? And how do Anglicans differ from Catholics?

Thanks! I look forward to learning more! :)

[PaladinValer]

Hi! I've been in a "question asking" mood lately over at the Catholic board, so I thought in all my seeking, I'd come here too. Hopefully no one minds!
Of course not! We Anglicans/Episcopalians are known for our kindness and welcoming attitudes and behaviors. In fact, they are world famous! ;)

I really don't know much of anything about Anglican beliefs, which is why I'm here, to learn more! My first question is, are Anglican's protestants?
First off, allow me to say that you can ask as many questions as you'd like; we love questions; we Anglicans/Episcopalians are a thinking bunch! :P

Secondly, yes; we are Protestants, but we are also catholic. Our motto, "Scripture, Tradition, Reason," is an excellent statement of how we form our theology. We are Scriptural; we may disagree with each other on interpretations, but the Bible is our central focus. We believe that the Bible contains everything necessarily for salvation and is authoritative in respects to faith and doctrine. We are also Traditional; we acknowledge the authority of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church through the Creed and Ecumenical Councils. We believe we have an authentic Apostolic Succession, which links us completely to the Early Church. Finally, we are Reasonable; we like to think that theology should make sense. Again, there will always be some disagreement, but our personal experiences and logical sense is important to us.

Also, if they are not protestant, how do they differ? And how do Anglicans differ from Catholics?
We could be considered "Catholic-Lite." We are arguably the most Catholic-like of all the Protestants. I'm sure others will add to this list, but here are some differences:

1. We allow our priests to marry
2. Some provinces in the AC (Anglican Commuinion) allow women to be deacons and priests; some allow them to be bishops.
3. We allow everyone whose been baptized to receive Holy Communion (both Elements) at the Altar.

[sarahbug]

Paladin, thank you!


This part in particular sounded very appealing to me!

Secondly, yes; we are Protestants, but we are also catholic. Our motto, "Scripture, Tradition, Reason," is an excellent statement of how we form our theology. We are Scriptural; we may disagree with each other on interpretations, but the Bible is our central focus. We believe that the Bible contains everything necessarily for salvation and is authoritative in respects to faith and doctrine. We are also Traditional; we acknowledge the authority of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church through the Creed and Ecumenical Councils. We believe we have an authentic Apostolic Succession, which links us completely to the Early Church. Finally, we are Reasonable; we like to think that theology should make sense. Again, there will always be some disagreement, but our personal experiences and logical sense is important to us.

I'll have to think over what you've told me so far, and come back with more questions! :D

[sarahbug]

Okay, I thought of another one...actually two... :)

Are Anglicans and Episcopalians the same thing? Or is Episcopalian more like a subdivision of Anglican?

And, what is a typical Anglican service like?

[PaladinValer]

Episcopalians are Anglicans. Anglicans are called Episcopalians in the USA, Scottland, and a few other places, usually in Africa.

What's a service like? The best source for that is to look in the Book of Common Prayer, as it has whole liturgies for various kinds of services. You can do a websearch for "Book of Common Prayer" and find a copy very easily :)

[sarahbug]

Okay, so Anglicans and Episcopalians are the same thing, it just depends on what country you are in?

Oh, and I'm sure this is a silly question, but what are liturgies?

[PaladinValer]

"Liturgy" is a fancy word for "service." We also use the word "Mass" too to describe our services :)

[sarahbug]

Aaah, okay...thanks! :D

[TomUK]

Just to add my own thoughts on the whole Catholic Protestant issue. I would have to say Anglicans are neither. We accept beliefs from both the pre-reformation and post-reformation Catholic church, while also accepting a number of beliefs from the Protesant reformations, and also the the ensuing Protestant churches.

I suppose i would have to conclude that we are neither Catholics or Protestants- we are Anglicans.

[sarahbug]

So it could be said that Anglicans are a whole different catagory?

[TomUK]

I would have to say both yes and no. We are neither and both! :D I could try and explain, but it is perhaps best to wait to wait for Polycarp- our resident genius!

Purely out of curiosity Sarahbug, and perhaps to spark a mini-debate, what were you preconceptions about Anglicanism, if you even had any?

[sarahbug]

Purely out of curiosity Sarahbug, and perhaps to spark a mini-debate, what were you preconceptions about Anglicanism, if you even had any?

I have no interest in debate, mini or otherwise. :) I just came here to learn more. What I know about Anglicanism you could fit on the head of a pin, so I come here with no preconceptions. :)

[TomUK]

Honestly, just trying to pass the time till someone more intelligent than me gets here :P I just find that people often have an number of images regarding Anglicanism and i was curious if you had similar views. h

Regarding your previous question though, i wouldn't say Anglicans are a whole different catagory. Essentially, we embrace the best bits of both and reject the worst bits of either. Essentially and very briefly, the Anglican church is a Catholic church, which rejected many of the reforms initiated in the reformation while retaining all of the 'un-corrupted' aspects of the church. As i say though, Polycarp is far better at this than I!

[sarahbug]

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. They take a bit from both Protestants and Catholics, and reject other parts. That makes sense. :D

[benedictine]

In my opinion, Anglicans are a whole different Category. Pax DEo

[sarahbug]

So, how Anglicans are catagorized seems to be a matter of opinion. :)

Okay, next question, do Anglicans use the rosary?

[jhollas]

A rosary?
Not to my knowledge, though I could be wrong.
A few of my friends carry around a small wooden cross in their pockets, so I think it's an individual thing.

[pmcleanj]

Okay, next question, do Anglicans use the rosary?
There is a so-called "Anglican Rosary", arranged in 4 "weeks" of seven beads, with four "cruciform" beads separating the four weeks, and an "invitatory" bead depending from the first cruciform bead. This makes a total of 33 beads, one for each year of the Saviour's life.

The Anglican Rosary is a recent innovation, created to offer an aid to meditative prayer. It's typically used by those who are seeking to deepen their spiritual experience; and another alternative some Anglicans use is the ancient 33-bead rosary with no variation in bead size, still used in some Eastern Orthodox churches. Since Anglicanism claimes very strong Celtic roots, some Anglicans also use the Celtic 50-bead or 150-bead rosary. Some Anglo-Catholics use the Marian rosary (the rosary used by that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with Rome.) Most Anglicans, however, do not use any rosary.

Those who do pray the rosary usually don't use the set prayers of the Marian rosary. Any prayer of appropriate length and rhythm, that fits the intentions of the person praying, can be used. I usually use Trisagion for praying the Anglican rosary. For the undifferentiated 33-bead rosary the traditional prayer is "Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner" repeated 33 times. The Celtic Rosary is used for reciting the Psalms; Celtic canons are said to have recited the entire book of Psalms every day.

[pmcleanj]

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. They take a bit from both Protestants and Catholics, and reject other parts. That makes sense. :D
No, no, no. We are not some plastic-model-kit religion put together with pieces from two different kits!

The problem you are having is that you are using "Catholic" and "Protestant" as opposites, when in fact they are two completely different ways of distinguishing doctrine.

In common usage many people use "Catholic" to refer to that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Bishop of Rome (also called the "Pope"), and "Protestant" to refer to everyone else. This is the usage prevalent among and taught by that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Rome. It's not the technical meaning of the terms, but if you use those definitions, we are "Protestant". I, however, don't accept the imposition of those definitions. Certainly if you have investigated other denominations with the diligence you are showing here, you can see that dumping all the denominations that are not in communion with Rome into one basket and pretending that tells you anything about their doctrine, is an invalid categorization.

"Catholic" means "universal", and refers to the belief that the Church, which is Christ's Body in the world, comprises "the whole company of all Christian People". The Body is not divided in time and space. We are all members of the same Body.

The extreme opposite of Catholicism is Congregationalism. Congregationalism holds that the local congregation manifests in fullness the Body of Christ, independent of any relationship to other congregations or other Christians outside the local congregation, and as such can determine true doctrine without reference to other congregations.

By this definition we are most definately Catholic. In some ways, we are more Catholic than that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Rome; in that they believe that only their congregations actually are part of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. They refer technically to the rest of us as "ecclesial communities" to avoid gracing us with the title of "Church". Anglicans on the other hand recognize "the *whole* company of all Christian people" -- including those who disagree with us(!) -- as part of the Body. (FYI, Baptists are an excellent example of mainstream Congregationalism).

"Protestants" are those Catholic princes and theologians who "protested" against the edicts of the Diet of Spires (1529) which rejected the call for reformation made by the Diet of Worms, and by extension those who continue today to stand against those edicts. Technically, then, you have to be Catholic in order to be Protestant. The opposite of Protestant would be "consentant", I suppose. In practice a better word is Dogmatic -- the belief that church hierarchies have the authority to codify and dictate doctrine. By this definition, Anglicans are most definately Protestant -- but so are many (possibly most) American Catholics who are in communion with Rome today.

[sarahbug]

No, no, no. We are not some plastic-model-kit religion put together with pieces from two different kits!

That's not what I was trying to say at all. :) Yes, I'm probably oversimplifying things, but that's the best way for me to get a basic understanding. I have never thought, or even tried to imply that you are a "plastic-model-kit religion." That would just be demeaning to your faith.

The problem you are having is that you are using "Catholic" and "Protestant" as opposites, when in fact they are two completely different ways of distinguishing doctrine.

Also, I don't think of Catholic and Protestant as being opposites...never have.

[sarahbug]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the replies. :) I think I have enough info to strike out on my own research. :)

[Filia Mariae]

By this definition we are most definately Catholic. In some ways, we are more Catholic than that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Rome; in that they believe that only their congregations actually are part of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. They refer technically to the rest of us as "ecclesial communities" to avoid gracing us with the title of "Church". Anglicans on the other hand recognize "the *whole* company of all Christian people" -- including those who disagree with us(!) -- as part of the Body. (emphasis added)

This is absolutely not true. Catholics do in fact believe that ALL Christians are part of the Body of Christ. I respectfully ask you not to explain Catholic beliefs if you do not know what they are.

If you would like to know what Catholics believe about other Christians, you are more than welcome to ask in OBOB. Please do not make incorrect statement about our beliefs.

Thank you.:)

[Polycarp1]

(emphasis added)

This is absolutely not true. Catholics do in fact believe that ALL Christians are part of the Body of Christ. I respectfully ask you not to explain Catholic beliefs, since you do not know what they are.

If you would like to know what Catholics believe about other Christians, you are more than welcome to ask in OBOB. Please do not make incorrect statement about our beliefs.

Thank you.:)
Hi, Carly. For reasons both historical and contemporary, you can imagine this is a hot-button topic for us Anglicans! (Ask Wolseley about martyrdoms on both sides back in Tudor times, or ask Michelina to explain Apostolicae Curae and the "Nags Head Fable," for some background on the past tensions.)

I'm sure that no Anglican would be averse to your setting forth here, by way of correction, exactly what it is that the Catholic Church feels about us "separated brethren" in general and us Anglicans in particular, provided that it's done with respect for our own faith communion.

And to be totally clear, there have been Catholics within living memory who denied membership in the Church to Protestants, Anglicans, and the like -- I can remember growing up a Methodist in a small town in rural New York, and having the Catholic kids explain to us that we weren't really Christians -- "the Church says so." Matters have changed and improved since then, but one can hardly hold it against someone for believing that what a Catholic tells one that the Catholic Church believes, is what the Catholic Church believes. :)

[Filia Mariae]

Hi, Carly. For reasons both historical and contemporary, you can imagine this is a hot-button topic for us Anglicans! (Ask Wolseley about martyrdoms on both sides back in Tudor times, or ask Michelina to explain Apostolicae Curae and the "Nags Head Fable," for some background on the past tensions.)

I'm sure that no Anglican would be averse to your setting forth here, by way of correction, exactly what it is that the Catholic Church feels about us "separated brethren" in general and us Anglicans in particular, provided that it's done with respect for our own faith communion.

And to be totally clear, there have been Catholics within living memory who denied membership in the Church to Protestants, Anglicans, and the like -- I can remember growing up a Methodist in a small town in rural New York, and having the Catholic kids explain to us that we weren't really Christians -- "the Church says so." Matters have changed and improved since then, but one can hardly hold it against someone for believing that what a Catholic tells one that the Catholic Church believes, is what the Catholic Church believes. :)
Hi Polycarp,

I know what Apostolicae Curae is and I also know the Tudor history. I apologize that as a child some of your Catholic friends told you that you weren't really a Christian. However, that is not Church teaching and their proclaiming that it is doesn't make it so.

I would be happy to post exactly what Catholics believe about our brothers and sisters in Christ. I didn't do so in my previous post, because I was afraid it would be construed as debating.





Wounds to unity 817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." 269 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=269)The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism 270 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=270) - do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers. 271 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=271)

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." 272 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=818&FNoteNum=272) 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" 273 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=273) are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." 274 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=274) Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=275) and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." 276 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=276)

[BAChristian]

And to be totally clear, there have been Catholics within living memory who denied membership in the Church to Protestants, Anglicans, and the like -- I can remember growing up a Methodist in a small town in rural New York, and having the Catholic kids explain to us that we weren't really Christians -- "the Church says so." Matters have changed and improved since then, but one can hardly hold it against someone for believing that what a Catholic tells one that the Catholic Church believes, is what the Catholic Church believes. :)
Heh heh...more like, there are Catholics who deny membership or tell people that they're not Christians. But at some point, you have to be accountable for researching and truly finding out if church XYZ believes in ABC...it's that simple.

You know, if you're Anglican or in communion with Rome, that you are the subject of scrutiny and question. You know this. You also know that there are misconceptions about your faith, just like any other faith.

With that said, you should do your own homework before you believe something.

At the end of the day, it's no different than any other faith in Christ. We tend to get away from thinking clearly and we run our mouths off too much and think that our faith is better than everyone elses...we forget to do our own homework and research other faiths...and we just plain act sinful in pride...

In essence, we take our eyes off of Him.

[pmcleanj]

This is absolutely not true. Catholics do in fact believe that ALL Christians are part of the Body of Christ.
Have you read Dominus Iesus? (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64

How much more clearly do you need the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to say "the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense", before a Catholic like me, who is not in communion with Rome, is allowed to say that our congregations and community are held to be excluded from "The Church" by the official pronouncements of your denomination?

[Filia Mariae]

Have you read Dominus Iesus? (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)
Yes.

How much more clearly do you need the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to say "the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense", before a Catholic like me, who is not in communion with Rome, is allowed to say that our congregations and community are held to be excluded from "The Church" by the official pronouncements of your denomination?
I am trying to be very careful here, as I don't want to be accused of debating. Also, so far there have been pretty good Catholic-Protestant relations in this particular forum so I don't want to ruin that.

With that said, there is nothing in Dominus Iesus that says that non-Catholic Christians are not a part of the Body of Christ, as you originally accused us of believing. In fact, the part you quoted, specifically says:


those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church

[pmcleanj]

There's a difference between "your Catholic friends told you that you weren't really a Christian", which is childish name-calling that we can all discount, and official documents that tell us that our "ecclesial community" is not 'Church in the proper sense' and that 'the Church of Christ is not present and operative in our Churches'.

Sure, you recognize that through baptism we "have a right to be called Christians" -- but until we abandon our insubordinate "ecclesial communities" we are merely "in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church". That communion is NOT enough, apparently, to make us *part* of the church: "80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church".

[sarahbug]

How sad that my thread that was started out of a desire to learn more about the Anglican faith turned into a debate. :( Oh well.

[Yahweh Nissi]

Well, that is CF for you :D

If you look at it in one way, the constant debates are actually an encouraging sign, as it shows it truely is a community of all Christians, not just a certain group.

A bit of info regarding your earlier question about wether we are protestant or not - you may have heared of Opperation World, a book designed to be a resource for those who want to pray for the world containing detailed info on all countries. It splits Christians into six 'mega-blocks' - Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Independent, Marginal (LDS, Jehova's Witness', etc) and Aglican. So they certianly consider it to be a seperate entity.

[Filia Mariae]

I apologize to all my Anglican brothers and sisters for turning this thread into a debate- that was not my intention. I merely wanted to correct a misstatement.

For those who are interested in what Catholics really believe about non-Catholic Christians, Polycarp started this thread in OBOB:

http://www.christianforums.com/t691036

Again, my apologies for derailing the thread.

[sarahbug]

Well, that is CF for you :D

If you look at it in one way, the constant debates are actually an encouraging sign, as it shows it truely is a community of all Christians, not just a certain group.

True, but I was just wanting to learn. I think there's a proper time and place for debate, and considering I am a newbie to understanding the Anglican faith, I'm not sure if this thread was the best place for debate.

A bit of info regarding your earlier question about wether we are protestant or not - you may have heared of Opperation World, a book designed to be a resource for those who want to pray for the world containing detailed info on all countries. It splits Christians into six 'mega-blocks' - Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Independent, Marginal (LDS, Jehova's Witness', etc) and Aglican. So they certianly consider it to be a seperate entity.

Interesting! That book sounds like something worth looking into. :)

[Polycarp1]

Just one final note on the Catholic/Anglican issue, which I hope will tie it up and wrap it with a bow:

The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.

That's from Dominus Iesus, the Catholic view promulgated by the Pope.

Now, never mind what Cardinal Ratziger or Father O'Grumpy may have to say -- in our own opinion, do we not preserve the Apostolic Succession and do we not celebrate the Eucharist validly and in accordance with the historic church's teachings?

Let's not look for offense where the hand of brotherhood has been extended, huh? :)

[sarahbug]

Well, thanks to everyone who was willing to answer my questions. :) Maybe I'll try again another time. :)

[BAChristian]

Sarah, thanks for asking...keep on asking. It's the only way to learn as much as you can...

...and in almost the shortest amount of time -- 'specially around here in CF...we have so many knowledgable folks like Polycarp, PV, and pmcleanj, who know their respective faiths so well...:)

This thread is now closed...