Info about GAF/CON

[higgs2]

It's hard for me to understand and really wrap my mind about what is going on with this. Maybe be can share info here. Let's try to be civil even if we disagree.

I found this excerpt from here: http://anglicanfuture.blogspot.com/2008/02/presuming-anyone-gives-damn.html The letter from the Primates of several Provinces to the twenty English Evangelical Bishops contained several tidbits of note:

(i) Like the GAFCON "Press Briefing" of February 1st, it was posted on the Province of Nigeria website. The briefing was by Archbishop Akinola speaking on behalf of GAFCON.

(ii) The letter from the Primates to the English Bishops spoke of "GAFCON bishops and primates" as the authors. This then is the close circle within the Global Anglican South who are proposing the alternative conference to Lambeth.

(iii) The "letterhead", at least on the web, is the symbol of the Anglican Communion. Anyone can use that symbol, but in this context it is a power symbol meant to make it clear that the GAFCON crowd believe they ARE valid spokespeople of the Communion.

(iv) The GAFCON writers make it clear that (a) The Archbishop of Canterbury no longer speaks for them, having not followed through with appropriate punishment of The Episcopal Church and (b) the Anglican Covenant is dead in the water as it now stands and Lambeth will not save it.

So there it is: Akinola is the lead on this; GAFCON is a way out of a Canterbury centered communion; they are working at being THE Anglican Communion in place of the Canterbury centered fellowship; the ABC and the Anglican Covenant are of no value.

Anyone know how to say "usurpation"?

Anyone care?

Anyone interested in playing Nigerian power politics and calling it religion?

I thought not.
I was surprised that it says GAFCON is communications are being written on Anglican Communion letterhead.

Are they really planning to take over, rather than start their own group?
:confused:

[karen freeinchristman]

It would be a shame to think the Anglicant Covenant as being 'dead in the water' - so much hard work is going into it. And Lambeth's impact dissolving away in many people's view? It's a strange time and an unsettling time to be in this Anglican Communion.

[Phinehas2]

I think GAFCON is wrong. If they don't want to attend Lambeth they shouldn't meet at all.
But having said that I dont think TEC Bishops should attend as they haven't complied with the Communion's line in the sand. So GAFCON isn't a surprise.. but is it to be recognised? When can Anglican Communion decisions be made, with those who respresent a majority or those who should be in a position in the first place?

[higgs2]

It would be a shame to think the Anglicant Covenant as being 'dead in the water' - so much hard work is going into it. And Lambeth's impact dissolving away in many people's view? It's a strange time and an unsettling time to be in this Anglican Communion.

I wonder about the covenant, it seems sort of un-Anglican to require people to sign up for that. I think it might not satisfy anyone in the end.

I'm not sure exactly what the benefit of being in rather than out of the communion is either.

[karen freeinchristman]

I wonder about the covenant, it seems sort of un-Anglican to require people to sign up for that. I think it might not satisfy anyone in the end.

I'm not sure exactly what the benefit of being in rather than out of the communion is either.
I know what you mean about the covenant, but I think they are trying to make it a helpful thing. Who knows what it will turn out to be like.

Regarding the Communion, I just feel that it is nice to have a big worldwide connection with those who are in it. But I'm realistic about its future.

[pmcleanj]

I know what you mean about the covenant, but I think they are trying to make it a helpful thing. Who knows what it will turn out to be like.

Regarding the Communion, I just feel that it is nice to have a big worldwide connection with those who are in it. But I'm realistic about its future.
We always will have a big worldwide connection.

It's like the day before Rachel was born,when Quebec happened to be having one of its series of referenda about whether to separate from Canada. I was all anxious about it (who knows, perhaps the anxiety brought on labour:o ). But then I realized that Canada is going to be just the same regardless: the land will still be evergreen-and-gold, the sky will still be more blue than anywhere else on earth, and the maples will still turn red in the fall.

So, as long as anyone cares about a history that goes back to Augustine of Canterbury, Lambeth Palace and its incumbent will still be at the centre of the heritage we share. Anglicanism isn't a denomination or an institution or a incorporated body: it's the church bodies that share a culture and find some way to come together from time to time to work on consensus. The Anglican Communion is the current manifestation of how most of us do that, but it's not the be-all and end-all, nor is it an ancient institutional pillar of the church.

1879 and 1533 and 664 were strange and unsettling times for Anglicans, too. Try not to worry too much about the man-made names and systems that we use in this long-ongoing-attempt of ours to be all we are called to be as the Church in/of/from England. The Church is no more imperiled by social changes than is the land or the sky or the maples.

[higgs2]

We always will have a big worldwide connection.

It's like the day before Rachel was born,when Quebec happened to be having one of its series of referenda about whether to separate from Canada. I was all anxious about it (who knows, perhaps the anxiety brought on labour:o ). But then I realized that Canada is going to be just the same regardless: the land will still be evergreen-and-gold, the sky will still be more blue than anywhere else on earth, and the maples will still turn red in the fall.

So, as long as anyone cares about a history that goes back to Augustine of Canterbury, Lambeth Palace and its incumbent will still be at the centre of the heritage we share. Anglicanism isn't a denomination or an institution or a incorporated body: it's the church bodies that share a culture and find some way to come together from time to time to work on consensus. The Anglican Communion is the current manifestation of how most of us do that, but it's not the be-all and end-all, nor is it an ancient institutional pillar of the church.

1879 and 1533 and 664 were strange and unsettling times for Anglicans, too. Try not to worry too much about the man-made names and systems that we use in this long-ongoing-attempt of ours to be all we are called to be as the Church in/of/from England. The Church is no more imperiled by social changes than is the land or the sky or the maples.
So true, Pamela. THis is how I feel about it.

I think TEC will be just fine in or out of the Anglican communion. I don't think any of it will affect my local parish. Except in a positive manner.

[No Swansong]

So true, Pamela. THis is how I feel about it.

I think TEC will be just fine in or out of the Anglican communion. I don't think any of it will affect my local parish. Except in a positive manner.
Let's see then would we then be turning all of property to the Anglican Communion? I wonder what the ABC would do with it?

[higgs2]

It sounds like they are now meeting in Jordan rather than Jerusalem, then making a pilgrimage type trip into Jerusalum. But Jordan is still in the diocese of Jerusalem.

[norbie]

It's so very sad, it's a shame. In all what ++Rowan has done to keep us together. And sadly this time Australia is involved too: +Jensen of Sydney, the 'black sheep' in our Anglican History is promoting it.
And now the reason: they are extreme Fundamentalists and still 'worrying' about gay +Robinson. I may ask you now, 'if love and compassion can't overide fundamentalism' then we lost the plot, we pack up and go home. This Sydney Diocese is the one who would not allow Cursillo into it because they think people could find the way to God. This Sydney Diopcese is the one who made a New Zealand female Bishop strip down to a Deacon to let her in. And now +Jensen is taking part in trying to split our Anglican Comunity. So I ask you what is the greater 'Crime', +Robinson or trying to split our Anglican Comunity?
So everybody who supports GAFCON should be strongly punished, and I think our good Lord will do just this.

[karen freeinchristman]

It's so very sad, it's a shame. In all what ++Rowan has done to keep us together. And sadly this time Australia is involved too: +Jensen of Sydney, the 'black sheep' in our Anglican History is promoting it.
And now the reason: they are extreme Fundamentalists and still 'worrying' about gay +Robinson. I may ask you now, 'if love and compassion can't overide fundamentalism' then we lost the plot, we pack up and go home. This Sydney Diocese is the one who would not allow Cursillo into it because they think people could find the way to God. This Sydney Diopcese is the one who made a New Zealand female Bishop strip down to a Deacon to let her in. And now +Jensen is taking part in trying to split our Anglican Comunity. So I ask you what is the greater 'Crime', +Robinson or trying to split our Anglican Comunity?
So everybody who supports GAFCON should be strongly punished, and I think our good Lord will do just this.
Wonderful post, Norbie! :thumbsup:

[Albion]

It's so very sad, it's a shame. In all what ++Rowan has done to keep us together. And sadly this time Australia is involved too: +Jensen of Sydney, the 'black sheep' in our Anglican History is promoting it.
And now the reason: they are extreme Fundamentalists and still 'worrying' about gay +Robinson. I may ask you now, 'if love and compassion can't overide fundamentalism' then we lost the plot, we pack up and go home. This Sydney Diocese is the one who would not allow Cursillo into it because they think people could find the way to God. This Sydney Diopcese is the one who made a New Zealand female Bishop strip down to a Deacon to let her in. And now +Jensen is taking part in trying to split our Anglican Comunity. So I ask you what is the greater 'Crime', +Robinson or trying to split our Anglican Comunity?
So everybody who supports GAFCON should be strongly punished, and I think our good Lord will do just this.

I really have to laugh when confronted by such fabulous exaggerations as claiming that being opposed to consecrating bishops who are openly gay makes people into "extreme fundamentalists."

I know that the idea was to find as stinging a putdown as could be come up with, regardless of the accuracy of it. However, almost the ONLY issue that divides these sides is that one--whether unapologetically living a lifestyle that for almost all of church history has been considered wrong makes one an unacceptable candidate for the episcopacy.

[higgs2]

I really have to laugh when confronted by such fabulous exaggerations as claiming that being opposed to consecrating bishops who are openly gay makes people into "extreme fundamentalists."

I know that the idea was to find as stinging a putdown as could be come up with, regardless of the accuracy of it. However, almost the ONLY issue that divides these sides is that one--whether unapologetically living a lifestyle that for almost all of church history has been considered wrong makes one an unacceptable candidate for the episcopacy.

I don't believe Norbie approves of consecrating bishops who are openly gay. So you might be jumping to conclusions about his meaning. Perhaps he'll clarify when he has a moment. I don't always agree with Norbie but he seems pretty kind and so I would be hesitant to ascribe nefarious motives to his post without asking him more about his meaning first. ("I know that the idea was to find as stinging a putdown as could be come up with, regardless of the accuracy of it.")

[Albion]

Mainly, he seems to have a longstanding "beef" with the Diocese of Sydney and transfers that to GAFCON. In any case, it is still ridiculous to call any of these people "fundamentalists" let alone "extreme fundamentalists."

[higgs2]

Mainly, he seems to have a longstanding "beef" with the Diocese of Sydney and transfers that to GAFCON. In any case, it is still ridiculous to call any of these people "fundamentalists" let alone "extreme fundamentalists."

:) I do agree that "fundamentalist" is used in many ways other than its technical definition.

I'm trying to implement a policy of not assuming bad motives to others, so I'll wait for his explanation. It's the "kinder, gentler Higgs2". :)

Then I'll jump all over him! :P

Kidding! I'm just kidding! :D :D

[Albion]

Kidding! I'm just kidding! :D :D

It's still a good joke, Higgs. :thumbsup:

[norbie]

It's still a good joke, Higgs. :thumbsup:
So Albion, please tell me WHAT is the problem??? And what is the joke?
I stated in a very simple English that I do not like the idea that +Jensen promotes and support GAFCON and as we all know in Australia they still have a problem with +Robinson. And we all had a discussion long ago about the 30 September deadline and thanks to ++Rowan a split had not happened.
And you also know about my stand re-gay clergy, or people for this matter. This was happening through all history, we all know this, BUT to come out all over the world in TV and Magazines like +Robinson did - THIS I have a problem with. But the right thing was done before the 30 September with a promise not to have gay clergy appointed to such high office - it's should be a matter of being closed.
+Jensen and all this African Bishops, who by the way got Millions of Dollars behind them, have no right to interfere with the Lambeth Conference and ++Rowan. He is a very loving and compassionate man and deffently the right man for my Anglican Church.
So even if it is not only the +Robinson issue they got no right to do this at such a short time before the Lambeth Conference.
So I hope this clears any miss understanding:wave:

[ebia]

Mainly, he seems to have a longstanding "beef" with the Diocese of Sydney and transfers that to GAFCON. In any case, it is still ridiculous to call any of these people "fundamentalists" let alone "extreme fundamentalists."
For right or for wrong it's not exactly novel in Australia to refer to Sydney Anglicans (or Sydney Catholics for that matter) as 'fundamentalist'.

[Aymn27]

In all what ++Rowan has done to keep us together. You cannot be serious here can you? The ABC has shown a huge lack of leadership and I would go so far as to say, he, almost single-handedly, is the reason the Communion is falling apart. If you think there is still a "communion", I think you need to lay off of the altar wine!

And now the reason: they are extreme Fundamentalists and still 'worrying' about gay +Robinson. I may ask you now, 'if love and compassion can't overide fundamentalism' then we lost the plot, we pack up and go home. Robinson is the straw that broke the camel's back - the issues are much deeper than he and his homoerotic love life. Scriptural interpretation, authority, sexual ethics, eccleisology are just a few of the issues at hand here. I have NEVER met an Anglican "fundamentalist" and think the term would probably be an oxymoron.

This Sydney Diopcese is the one who made a New Zealand female Bishop strip down to a Deacon to let her in. Got to LOVE Sydney!

And now +Jensen is taking part in trying to split our Anglican Comunity. So I ask you what is the greater 'Crime', +Robinson or trying to split our Anglican Comunity? The split has happened. The good bishop has simply chosen a side -


So everybody who supports GAFCON should be strongly punished, and I think our good Lord will do just this
Yea..I'm sure Jesus is gonna be real mad that some bishops are holding a seperate meeting to discuss how they can be faithful to His Word - I bet they get spanked with a wet noodle (of course, if Jesus is Episcopalian he'd be in violation of PB Schori's sharia law of liberalism) - no spaking Jesus!

[haulpak]

Let's see then would we then be turning all of property to the Anglican Communion? I wonder what the ABC would do with it?

He could possibly sell all the property and hold a giant sausage sizzle and invite all of his new found Muslim friends to a free lunch.

Afterwards they could all sit down and enjoy a quality converstation about how Sharia Law can be applied to the Anglican Communion.

Oh wait, they sold all the property!! Whats left except the souls of the faithful.

The new theme song will be "MY-SHARIA", sung to the tune of "My Sharona"

Here's a link to the song for those who have never heard My Sharona http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgvG2Ll9rA

:P

[Albion]

So Albion, please tell me WHAT is the problem??? And what is the joke?

Norbie, when Higgs said this--

I'll wait for his explanation. It's the "kinder, gentler Higgs2". :)

Then I'll jump all over him! :P

Yes, I thought it was funny. Of course she didn't mean it seriously and said so, therefore, my comment "It's still a good joke," meaning that it's good as a joke although we all know that it was not something she would actually do (jump all over him).

[higgs2]

For right or for wrong it's not exactly novel in Australia to refer to Sydney Anglicans (or Sydney Catholics for that matter) as 'fundamentalist'.

I think maybe it's a cultural thing. In the US "fundamentalist" must mean something a little different.

[higgs2]

He could possibly sell all the property and hold a giant sausage sizzle and invite all of his new found Muslim friends to a free lunch.

Afterwards they could all sit down and enjoy a quality converstation about how Sharia Law can be applied to the Anglican Communion.

Oh wait, they sold all the property!! Whats left except the souls of the faithful.

The new theme song will be "MY-SHARIA", sung to the tune of "My Sharona"

Here's a link to the song for those who have never heard My Sharona http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgvG2Ll9rA

:P

I had the album in highschool. "Get the Knack". One hit wonders.

This was actually a pretty funny post, but I disagree with your basic point. :)

[higgs2]

plonk

[higgs2]

Norbie, when Higgs said this--

I'll wait for his explanation. It's the "kinder, gentler Higgs2". :)

Then I'll jump all over him! :P

Yes, I thought it was funny. Of course she didn't mean it seriously and said so, therefore, my comment "It's still a good joke," meaning that it's good as a joke although we all know that it was not something she would actually do (jump all over him).




Thank you for explaining, Albion. :)

[No Swansong]

So Albion, please tell me WHAT is the problem??? And what is the joke?
I stated in a very simple English that I do not like the idea that +Jensen promotes and support GAFCON and as we all know in Australia they still have a problem with +Robinson. And we all had a discussion long ago about the 30 September deadline and thanks to ++Rowan a split had not happened.
And you also know about my stand re-gay clergy, or people for this matter. This was happening through all history, we all know this, BUT to come out all over the world in TV and Magazines like +Robinson did - THIS I have a problem with. But the right thing was done before the 30 September with a promise not to have gay clergy appointed to such high office - it's should be a matter of being closed.
+Jensen and all this African Bishops, who by the way got Millions of Dollars behind them, have no right to interfere with the Lambeth Conference and ++Rowan. He is a very loving and compassionate man and deffently the right man for my Anglican Church.
So even if it is not only the +Robinson issue they got no right to do this at such a short time before the Lambeth Conference.
So I hope this clears any miss understanding:wave:
No right for like minded Bishops to gather and discuss what they believe to be pressing issues in the Church? God forbid they not have this right. They not only have a right to they have the responsibility to.

[No Swansong]

plonk
So who got plonked this time? There have been so many lately I can't keep them straight.

[haulpak]

I had the album in highschool. "Get the Knack". One hit wonders.

This was actually a pretty funny post, but I disagree with your basic point. :)

The main point was well hidden.

That is, the only thing left in the Anglican Communion of any real value is the souls of the faithful. Everything else seems to be a victim of internal dispute of one form or another.

The rest of the post reflects my somewhat warped sense of humor which originated in a comment from a Muslim I know who said, if the Archbishop of Canterbury says Sharia Laws is ok, then it should be made law in Britain. So yes, all of a sudden Rowan found himself a lot of 'new' Muslim friends all wanting the same thing, Sharia Law in Britain.

NoSwanSong asked what Rowan would do with the money from all the property sales. He could use the money to have a BBQ !! who knows....

My my my my Sharia.......:P

[haulpak]

+Jensen and all this African Bishops, who by the way got Millions of Dollars behind them, have no right to interfere with the Lambeth Conference and ++Rowan.

I just want to make a comment about the African Bishops.

Anyone who thinks that Peter Akinola presides over a problem free Archdiocese in Nigeria, has clearly never been there.

The Anglicans are a minority in Nigeria, indeed they are a persecuted Minority. Who is persecuting them and why is not difficult to work out, since 90% of the country is Muslim and there is no separation of Church and State in Muslim Ideology.

We saw what happened to a British Teacher and a teddy bear named Mohammed. Try living in a Muslim Country and building a Christian place of worship! Well, it will be ok until the locals decide to burn it down or destroy it, simply because it competes with the religion of Islam, and Muslim's don't like that sort of competition.... after all people might learn the truth or find something better.... can't be having that can we....

Also consider this. Before this nasty business eurupted, Peter Akinola was struggling to keep his own Arch Diocese afloat, not a $US in sight. Along come the disaffected Anglicans seeking alternative episcopal oversight and *BANG*, ol Pete sees the gravy train comming from a mile off!!!!

Don't think for one moment that its not about the Money. And certain Africans have made obtaining it in rather unorthodox ways, an art form.

Pete's new found wealth should afford him a good lifestyle, once the disaffected realise that Pete is doing nothing for them but stealing their money and turn the $$$ tap off.

The whole thing is scandalous.

[higgs2]

The main point was well hidden.

That is, the only thing left in the Anglican Communion of any real value is the souls of the faithful. Everything else seems to be a victim of internal dispute of one form or another.

The rest of the post reflects my somewhat warped sense of humor which originated in a comment from a Muslim I know who said, if the Archbishop of Canterbury says Sharia Laws is ok, then it should be made law in Britain. So yes, all of a sudden Rowan found himself a lot of 'new' Muslim friends all wanting the same thing, Sharia Law in Britain.

NoSwanSong asked what Rowan would do with the money from all the property sales. He could use the money to have a BBQ !! who knows....

My my my my Sharia.......:P

Yes, it was well hidden. I didn't understand the nuances. That said, now that you've explained, I disagree with your comments about the ABC.

[haulpak]

Yes, it was well hidden. I didn't understand the nuances. That said, now that you've explained, I disagree with your comments about the ABC.

Just to clarify, it was not the ABC who wanted Sharia Law imposed upon Britain, but the new found Muslim Friends who latched onto his comments and proclaimed them as being 'proof' that the Church supports the implementation of Sharia Law in Britain.


Rowan found himself a lot of 'new' Muslim friends all wanting the same thing, Sharia Law in Britain.


It was the Muslims who want the same thing, not ABC.

I hope that clarifies things.

[norbie]

I just want to make a comment about the African Bishops.

Anyone who thinks that Peter Akinola presides over a problem free Archdiocese in Nigeria, has clearly never been there.

The Anglicans are a minority in Nigeria, indeed they are a persecuted Minority. Who is persecuting them and why is not difficult to work out, since 90% of the country is Muslim and there is no separation of Church and State in Muslim Ideology.

We saw what happened to a British Teacher and a teddy bear named Mohammed. Try living in a Muslim Country and building a Christian place of worship! Well, it will be ok until the locals decide to burn it down or destroy it, simply because it competes with the religion of Islam, and Muslim's don't like that sort of competition.... after all people might learn the truth or find something better.... can't be having that can we....

Also consider this. Before this nasty business eurupted, Peter Akinola was struggling to keep his own Arch Diocese afloat, not a $US in sight. Along come the disaffected Anglicans seeking alternative episcopal oversight and *BANG*, ol Pete sees the gravy train comming from a mile off!!!!

Don't think for one moment that its not about the Money. And certain Africans have made obtaining it in rather unorthodox ways, an art form.

Pete's new found wealth should afford him a good lifestyle, once the disaffected realise that Pete is doing nothing for them but stealing their money and turn the $$$ tap off.

The whole thing is scandalous.

And where is God in all this? The problem of all this is, how can we reach out, how can we evengalise - if non-believer see what's happening in our Churches. :cry:

[Colabomb]

It's hard for me to understand and really wrap my mind about what is going on with this. Maybe be can share info here. Let's try to be civil even if we disagree.



Its easy to be civil when you ignore those who you disagree with.

[Colabomb]

plonk

Dropping like flies aren't we.

Lifes rosy when people you don't like cease to exist.

Hypocrite. Never preach to me about tolerance again!

[norbie]

I think maybe it's a cultural thing. In the US "fundamentalist" must mean something a little different.
May I ask if people would be so kind and post what "fundamentalist" mean in their own country.
There seems to be a lot of miss understanding in our Threads which could ease be avoided if we all agree what we mean on CF by being fundamental. It sure would be helpful.:thumbsup: