So... (Orthodox & mortal sin)

[Epistemes]

In Catholic theology, when a person commits a mortal sin then that person is completely severed from God until repentance and reconciliation.

Do Orthodox Christians have a similar or same understanding of the effects of mortal sin??

[Matrona]

No, we don't. We consider that all sin separates us from God. However, the damage particular sins can wreak on our relationship with God, can vary by the individual. There isn't anything we can really call someone's automatic ticket to hell. God judges us all.

[Lotar]

In Catholic theology, when a person commits a mortal sin then that person is completely severed from God until repentance and reconciliation.

Do Orthodox Christians have a similar or same understanding of the effects of mortal sin??
It is more often refered to as sin that kills the soul, but yes. The real difference is that we don't categorize which sin is mortal or not, it generally depends.

[rusmeister]

What Matrona said.

[katherine2001]

As my first priest used to say, all sin can kill you.

[Mary of Bethany]

Another good priestly quote:

It is a sin not to be a Saint.

Slightly OT, I know. :)

Mary

[Epistemes]

It seems to me that without the distinction between mortal and venial sins then a person is likely to become too lax, seeing no escape from the harshness of sin, or become too scrupulous for the very same reason.

[Philothei]

No, I do think that is what we mean by all sins can kill.... The opposite is true. Responsibility is more harsh in the EO as ALL sins are important... that does not mean that commiting murder will not "count" as important on the contrary we are more strict.. that is that it is as important. Like if you had a fight with your mother in L. and you do not reconcile you cannot take communion etc.. if you do not go to confession... Confession is not only for mortal sins but for all... no exceptions... IOW every sins can put your salvation in danger....

[Epistemes]

Like if you had a fight with your mother in L. and you do not reconcile you cannot take communion etc.. if you do not go to confession... Confession is not only for mortal sins but for all... no exceptions... IOW every sins can put your salvation in danger....

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. Now, I agree that we ought to go to confession if we have a quarrel with somebody, nonetheless if I tell a little white lie - say I ate the last piece of cheesecake but then later denied it - am I honestly going to hell if I don't confess my mistake?

It's the great deal of responsibility which could make someone overly scrupulous in matters of sin and unable to enjoy life. If I get impatient; if I get angry and cut in front of someone on the highway; if am sarcastic or use humor which isn't true - these are the sort of faults which I can't understand why I'd liable for without a simple prayer outside confession?

[Orthocat]

Orthodoxy and Rome have different views of sin that begin with original sin.

We do not hold the complete views of Augustine as the west does.

Sin was not so much categorized in the east - never indulgences or "pardons" or anything like that. To my knowledge there is no sliding scale - big sins/little sins.
When you start thinking in terms of "well, this sin isn't as big as this one" then you are making excuses for sin.
and when this happens they get bigger and bigger - that's a spiritual fact.

The example with the cheesecake - by taking the last piece of cheesecake (when you are apparently not supposed to, otherwise why lie about it?) you are giving in to gluttony or greed. What "scale" is this on?
All of those little white lies have hidden bigger issues behind them. Don't be fooled...

(and it's Lent - no cheesecake! :) )


Now of course, if your wife/girlfriend asks if she looks fat in some new outfit....
Self-preservation would be a valid point ;)

[jckstraw72]

confession is therapeutic. if you hide your sins how will you overcome them? its not just about listing them off and worrying about them, its about defeating them.

[Epistemes]

I'm not talking about making excuses for certain sins, nor about hiding them. But I am saying that having to go to confession for minor bouts of impatience, anger, or even intemperance is ridiculous when these minor sins (but nonetheless sins) can be dealt with and reconciled without the intervention of a priest.

And, going back to the cheesecake example: I never said that the person wasn't supposed to eat it, so therefore inferring gluttony is incorrect. The cheesecake could be sitting out in the open, but a loved one may express sadness that someone (you) ate the last piece which they had their mind set on all day! When confronted, you might tell a little white lie - but it's not like this little white lie affects the make-up of the cosmos, much less can I see such a trivial lie (but a sin nonetheless) damning a person if confession for precisely such a trivial concern (when greater concerns/sins affect mankind) is not attended to. I can't understand why I should waste my time or a priest's time confessing, "Oh yeah, and aside from getting six chicks pregnant this past week and ditching them, I also ate a piece of cheesecake which my mum was really looking forward to eating...and so I lied about eating it."

I'm sorry, but I find the lack of distinction in these case utterly inane. Forgive me for saying so. If God can't forgive me for my little white lie, my intemperance, or even my impure thoughts, then that's not the God of the Bible that I've read about.

[jckstraw72]

thou shalt not lie is one of the 10 commandments -- its a pretty big deal. and no one said God couldnt forgive it ... not sure where that came from.

[Akathist]

Moving this thread to the Debate area.

[GBTWC]

why then did Christ say theres only one unfogivable sin ? and what do you think that is

[Lukaris]

why then did Christ say theres only one unfogivable sin ? and what do you think that is
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-30 & eslewhere). Then in Matthew 5:21-26 We also have to be aware of being angry with our brother without a cause (& some manuscripts do not include this provison & St. Cassian (4th c) intrepreted the theology w/out the provision to just being angry). Ultimately we must be like the wise virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) & be prepared as the Bridegroom matins teaches during Holy Week.

[GBTWC]

what is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit ?

in Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus said "you'll be in danger of hell" (unless what?) and was he talking to pharisees, unbelievers, what was there way of escaping hellfire? if we isolate this section of scripture I dont think any of us will go to heaven. Lord have mercy on us.

in Matthew 25:1-13 how can we be prepared

think of your answers in context of the original posters question

[Lukaris]

what is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit ?

in Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus said "you'll be in danger of hell" (unless what?) and was he talking to pharisees, unbelievers, what was there way of escaping hellfire? if we isolate this section of scripture I dont think any of us will go to heaven. Lord have mercy on us.

in Matthew 25:1-13 how can we be prepared

think of your answers in context of the original posters question
Understood as to what precisely is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. We as Orthodox do not consider ourselves or our neighbor as necessarily doomed to hell but as individual believers within the church whole we must conform ourselves to Christ in what we believe to be His church. The key is vigilance and tranforming the heart (to love God and neighbor) which is never a done deal to the day of our death. People we understand as havng salvation were understood in their afterlife state to us physically living (ex. the thief on the cross, our blessed saints in the Old Testament,later saints: the apostles, martyrs etc.). While we are particular about what we believe to be the Christian faith of the apostles, we do not and can not pass judgement towards other Christians or our neighbor in general. We do not neglect discernment of good and evi lbut still we must be vigilant. Hope this in all humility and helpful . God bless.

[GBTWC]

so then what do you understand those scripture references to be telling us?

[Lukaris]

so then what do you understand those scripture references to be telling us?
(sincerely) In all due respect, I believe I stated this in my last post. As St. Peter states, ..."Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for, ' God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble' (Prov. 3:34). Therefor humble yourselves under the almighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting your care upon Him for He cares for you. Be sober, be vigilant;...." (1 Peter 5:5-8).

[GBTWC]

(sincerely) In all due respect, I believe I stated this in my last post. As St. Peter states, ..."Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for, ' God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble' (Prov. 3:34). Therefor humble yourselves under the almighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting your care upon Him for He cares for you. Be sober, be vigilant;...." (1 Peter 5:5-8).
maybe i didnt understand your post I reread it and im not sure what you consider Blasephemy of the Holy spirit to be?

[Lukaris]

maybe i didnt understand your post I reread it and im not sure what you consider Blasephemy of the Holy spirit to be?
Sorry if any misconceptions. Our current Orthodox Study Bible has it stated in a note under Matthew 12:32, "blashpemy against the Holy Spirit is against the divine activity of the Spirit, blasphemy against pure goodness...a willful hardness of heart & refusal to accept God'sd mercy. The Fathers are clear that blasphemy against the HS is not an 'unforgivable sin" nor does Jesus call this sin 'unforgiveable.' St. John Chrysostom teaches that blasphemy against the HS would be forgiveable upon repentance. Jesus makes this declaration knowing that those who blaspheme the Spirit are calling pure divine goodness 'evil' and beyond repentance by choice."

[GBTWC]

thanks, by the way I just recently pre-orderd the Orthodox study Bible. my understanding is its not released yet?

and a follw up to your last comment would be what then is considered unrepentence?

[Lukaris]

thanks, by the way I just recently pre-orderd the Orthodox study Bible. my understanding is its not released yet?

and a follw up to your last comment would be what then is considered unrepentence?
BTW, welcome to TAW forum. I am going to state this personally (intent to be within Orthopraxis) so it may stand for some correction, but will say willful unbelief& rebellion towards God (ex. Satanism, Marxism but not necessarily all atheism & agnosticism), a denial of a need to love one's neighbor and only justify oneself (basing on part of St. Paul's teaching in Romans 2). Actually the new Orthodox Study Bible is out & from which I have been refrencing. Unsure as to where to order since father ordered ours for the parish for sale.

[GBTWC]

BTW, welcome to TAW forum. I am going to state this personally (intent to be within Orthopraxis) so it may stand for some correction, but will say willful unbelief& rebellion towards God (ex. Satanism, Marxism but not necessarily all atheism & agnosticism), a denial of a need to love one's neighbor and only justify oneself (basing on part of St. Paul's teaching in Romans 2). Actually the new Orthodox Study Bible is out & from which I have been refrencing. Unsure as to where to order since father ordered ours for the parish for sale.
thanks for the welcome and your answers ...amazon say the O.S.B. release date is june 17

[fuerein]

thanks for the welcome and your answers ...amazon say the O.S.B. release date is june 17
I think Amazon isn't getting the initial printings. Conciliar Press though is selling it.

http://conciliarpress.com/catalog/Orthodox_Study_Bible-53-1.html

[GBTWC]

I think Amazon isn't getting the initial printings. Conciliar Press though is selling it.

http://conciliarpress.com/catalog/Orthodox_Study_Bible-53-1.html


doh! :doh: well at least I saved 10 bucks but and Im learning patience