Rapture?

[Cary.Melvin]

What is the Anglican Church's view on the end times?

Amillinial, Pre-millenial, Post-millenial?

If Pre-millenial, do you believe in a Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation Rapture?

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

There is no "Anglican view" on these. You will find any number of views within the church.I most certainly do not believe in a rapture as commonly described. As far as I can see, it means Jesus returning twice.

[benedictine]

I don't either. the 'rapture' theory is a dispensationalist theory;which, strangely enough, began in the mid 1800's. Neither the Roman or Orthodox Churches accept this theory. Also, it does mean that Christ returns twice. ---Pax Deo

[TomUK]

So what is the pervading end of times theory among Anglicans, if there even is one?

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

There isn't one.

[Polycarp1]

Anglicans emphatically adhere to the Nicene Creed statement: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end."

But as a church we emphatically refuse to take stances on the panoply of interpretations of eschatological teachings that are hot issues for a lot of churches. Rather, we echo our Master's comment: "Ye know not when the Master cometh. Therefore, I say unto you, Be ready!" It might be worthwhile looking at the four Collects for the Sundays in Advent in the BCP and at the section titled "The Christian Hope" in the Catechism (see the pinned thread at the top of this forum).

[PaladinValer]

I am an amillennialist. I sat down yesterday and read the entire Book of Revelation with my background knowledge of the Ecumenical Councils and the Nicene Creed. The only interpretation I could come up with is that we are in the Millennial Age, which is a symbolic 1000 years in which the Christian Church is revatively without persecution (in respect to what it faced in Rome, of course). The "first Resurrection" was Jesus, the firstfruits of God (as He is God the Son; the First Creation and Ever Eternal), the Elders are members of the Angelic Host, and the "second Resurrection" is the Resurrection of the dead who will be given bodies and join the living for the Judgment.

If anyone has any critiques, please give them; I really want to understand this highly metaphorical book the best I possibly can. :)

[The Lord is my banner]

I am an amillennialist. I sat down yesterday and read the entire Book of Revelation with my background knowledge of the Ecumenical Councils and the Nicene Creed. The only interpretation I could come up with is that we are in the Millennial Age, which is a symbolic 1000 years in which the Christian Church is revatively without persecution (in respect to what it faced in Rome, of course). The "first Resurrection" was Jesus, the firstfruits of God (as He is God the Son; the First Creation and Ever Eternal), the Elders are members of the Angelic Host, and the "second Resurrection" is the Resurrection of the dead who will be given bodies and join the living for the Judgment.

If anyone has any critiques, please give them; I really want to understand this highly metaphorical book the best I possibly can. :)

Relatively without persecution? The 20th century saw the gretest number of Christian martyrs ever. (In fact I think it was quoted that there were more in that century than in all the previous ones put together, but can't recall where I got that.)

This is not the millennium, which as I understand is a time of complete peace and righteousness. Surely we are still somewhere in the end times that began in the New Testament?

I am completely confused about all the rest of it though, and my Anglican church is no help - the vicar doesn't mention Christ's return at all if he can help it!

One thing's for sure - Jesus will come back soon!

See you there folks, :wave: blessings 'til then, Susana

[Polycarp1]

Relatively without persecution? The 20th century saw the gretest number of Christian martyrs ever. (In fact I think it was quoted that there were more in that century than in all the previous ones put together, but can't recall where I got that.)
Hi, Susana :wave: I've no interest in arguing on this issue, but would you mind expanding on your thinking here a bit? There were quite a few persecutions in specific countries that were quite widespread -- the U.S.S.R., Armenia, Red China, and Uganda come quickly to mind -- but I would like to know where you're getting "the greatest number ever" from. (And I'm finding it difficult to phrase that as non-confrontationally as I mean it -- it's a request for information and more detail, not a challenge! -- so please don't read any tone into it. :))

BTW, and slightly off topic, but something I think Woody and forum members will appreciate: On June 3, Catholic churches will commemorate the Martyrs of Uganda, missionaries slain by an anti-Christian kabaka in 1886. And so will many Anglican churches. We both had missionaries there, and they were killed together. And the Pope who canonized them and set June 3 as their feast day specifically recognized that the Catholic and Anglican missionaries worked and died together for Christ, and so of course do we.

This is not the millennium, which as I understand is a time of complete peace and righteousness. Surely we are still somewhere in the end times that began in the New Testament?
In about 110 AD, a presbyter named Hippolytus wrote a document on the celebration of the Divine Liturgy that has been handed down as "The Apostolic Liturgy of Hippolytus." It's the earliest documented Eucharistic liturgy in which the actual prayers used have been preserved. And Eucharistic Prayer B in the American Book of Common Prayer is modeled closely on it. And both documents contain this:

We give thanks to you, O Lord ... {snip of recall of salvation history} and above all in the Word made flesh, Jesus, your Son. For in these last days you sent Him to be incarnate from the Virgin Mary, tro be the Savior and Redeemer of the world....
There is for me a beautiful perspective in that bit of history and the phrasing of that prayer: For 1900 years we have seen ourselves as in the Last Days, and it does not strike anyone as ironic that almost 20 centuries have gone by and we still hold fast to that hope. "One day, O Lord, in thy sight is like a thousand years."

Nero, Domitian, Mohammed, Genghis Khan, Frederick II, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Laden -- they've all been called the Antichrist who will stand against Jesus in the Last Days. They've all gone to their just reward (except maybe Osama as yet), and the Church continues on.

"Thy kingdom come!" on bended knee
the passing ages pray;
and faithful souls have yearned to see
on earth that kingdom's day.

But the slow watches of the night
not less to God belong;
and for the everlasting right
the silent stars are strong.

And lo, already on the hills
the flags of dawn appear;
gird up your loins, ye prophet souls,
proclaim the day is near:

The day to whose clear shining light
all wrong shall stand revealed,
when justice shall be throned in might,
and every heart be healed;

When knowledge, hand in hand with peace,
shall walk the earth abroad;
the day of perfect righteousness,
the promised day of God.

[PaladinValer]

Relatively without persecution? The 20th century saw the gretest number of Christian martyrs ever. (In fact I think it was quoted that there were more in that century than in all the previous ones put together, but can't recall where I got that.)
Note what my post said. In comparison to Roman times, in which all Christians were persecuted. I'm talking ratios here, not raw numbers which can be misleading.

This is not the millennium, which as I understand is a time of complete peace and righteousness. Surely we are still somewhere in the end times that began in the New Testament?
The Church is the Millennial Kingdom of peace and righteousness.

I am completely confused about all the rest of it though, and my Anglican church is no help - the vicar doesn't mention Christ's return at all if he can help it!
End Times are a tricky subject; many people, obviously including ordained clergy, find it difficult to talk about. The best resources we have are the Ecumenical Councils (and other forms of Holy Tradition) and the Scriptures to see what the orthodox views are (IMO, of course).

One thing's for sure - Jesus will come back soon!
I wouldn't assume such; when He comes, He comes. I'll be watchful, but dwelling on the subject and guessing can only lead to false prophecy (not that you are; do you mean "soon" by "revatively soon"?).

[The Lord is my banner]

I don't remember where I first read or heard the statement that the 20th Century saw more martyrs than all the other centuries together, but I found this which appears to substantiate the claim:

20TH CENTURY SAW 65% OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRS, SAYS AUTHOR
Conclusions of New Study Published in Italy
ROME, MAY 9, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The 20th century may have been the most striking in the annals of Christian martyrdom, and a new book shows it with numbers.

In two millennia of Christian history, about 70 million faithful have given their lives for the faith, and of these, 45.5 million -- fully 65% -- were in the last century, according to "The New Persecuted" ("I Nuovi Perseguitati").

Italian journalist Antonio Socci presented his work during a conference on "Anti-Christian Persecution in the 20th Century" held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

I do take the point Paladin Valer makes; he meant that the concentration of persecution was very high in Roman times.

However, it would appear that that the Christian Church taken as a whole is undergoing greater persecution today, though of course the Western parts of it are very comfortable on the whole.

You can choose to say it's less because of the percentages involved, but when millions of Christians have died, to say nothing of the overall state of the world, I really don't think you can honestly say this is the Millenium of Christ ruling the earth in justice and peace.

Regarding Jesus returning soon, I don't claim to know anything - "no-one knows the day or the hour." But in His own words - "I am coming soon."

Blessings, Susana

[PaladinValer]

I don't remember where I first read or heard the statement that the 20th Century saw more martyrs than all the other centuries together, but I found this which appears to substantiate the claim:

20TH CENTURY SAW 65% OF CHRISTIAN MARTYRS, SAYS AUTHOR
Conclusions of New Study Published in Italy
ROME, MAY 9, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The 20th century may have been the most striking in the annals of Christian martyrdom, and a new book shows it with numbers.

In two millennia of Christian history, about 70 million faithful have given their lives for the faith, and of these, 45.5 million -- fully 65% -- were in the last century, according to "The New Persecuted" ("I Nuovi Perseguitati").

Italian journalist Antonio Socci presented his work during a conference on "Anti-Christian Persecution in the 20th Century" held at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Shock value is highly potent, but one article isn't enough to prove such a huge case.

I do take the point Paladin Valer makes; he meant that the concentration of persecution was very high in Roman times.

However, it would appear that that the Christian Church taken as a whole is undergoing greater persecution today, though of course the Western parts of it are very comfortable on the whole.Or what we think is persecution in the "eastern" parts of the world.

You can choose to say it's less because of the percentages involved, but when millions of Christians have died, to say nothing of the overall state of the world, I really don't think you can honestly say this is the Millenium of Christ ruling the earth in justice and peace.This is the fallacy of Appealing to the Masses. Masses in this case mean nothing if the ratios also aren't in agreement. For example, Christianity is the biggest religion in the world, but in ratio to all the people in the world, its a definite minority that continues to shrink in percentage even though the numbers of Christians is still growing.

Regarding Jesus returning soon, I don't claim to know anything - "no-one knows the day or the hour." But in His own words - "I am coming soon."Soon was said, when?; roughly 33 CE give or take 2 years. Its been then roughly 1971 years later and it still hasn't happened. "Soon" is a very abstract term; it could mean seconds, it could mean millennia. That is why Jesus warned people not to presume to know or to guess (they'd be false prophets if they are wrong; and everyone so far has been a false prophet).

When the End comes, it comes. Don't worry about it; God will take care of it. Live your life mindful about the End, but do not dwell on it; Jesus proclaimed that the Kingdom was within us, and dwelling on death and Judgment isn't according to the Kingdom of peace He proclaimed.

[LADY DI]

I was going to start a thread on the Anglican veiw of the Rapture.
But someone beat me to it.
It is kind of a confusing topic.:confused: Since there are so many different theories on the subject.
It's just a question, but with all that is going on in the world today, does anyone think we could be living in the "end-times" now?

[Father Rick]

On the subject of martyrs, I have actually seen similar info from several reliable sources. Below is a short article on the subject:By Paul Marshall and Faith McDonell, authors for Lifeway

On the second day of the new millennium, in Al-Kosheh, Egypt, Adel Ghattas Fahmy, a 22-year-old deacon at a local Coptic Orthodox church, was dragged to a nearby field and told to renounce his Christian faith and convert to Islam. When Adel refused, he was forced to kneel and then shot in the back of his head. Adel's 11-year-old sister, Maysoun, was forced to lie next to her brothers' dead body, and she too was shot and killed.

In Sudan, Neema tells of kidnapping, rape, and slavery. " I was taken to the north. I was sold to a man who put me to work as a servant. They gave me a Moslem name, and forced me to take part in their Moslem rituals, even though I am a Christian. When I refused, I was harshly beaten. And when my master's wife went to market, or left the home for any reason, he..."

Currently the vast majority of active Christians live outside the west. On any given Sunday more people go to church in China than do in all of Western Europe combined. In some 35 countries Christians are persecuted for their faith, while in another 30 countries they suffer discrimination (two good books for more info are "Their Blood Cries Out" and Religious Freedom In The World" by Paul Marshall).

Despite the fall of the Soviet Union, Communist persecution continues. Since 1994, and especially since 1999, The Chinese government has persecuted Christians who refuse to register with and be supervised by the government. Underground pastors have been sent to labor camps for three years: many are beaten or tortured. One reason for this violence is that the Chinese government is well aware of the role that the freedom provided by the church played in the downfall of Communism in Eastern Europe. The Chinese state run press said in 1992 that, to prevent the same thing happening in China, "we must strangle the baby while it is still in the manger." The same patterns of persecution occur in Vietnam and Laos, are similar in Cuba, and are even worse in North Korea.

Persecution is also increasing under radical Islamic regimes. In Saudi Arabia it is illegal for a Saudi to be anything other than Muslim. If Saudis professes another religion, it is assumed that they must have apostatized from Islam, and this carries the death penalty. ( I was told once that they, Saudis, were a "kind and understanding people") Qatar, Sudan, and Mauritania also have the death penalty for apostasy. In many other countries, the law may not say so but your family or community will kill you for becoming a Christian.

In Sudan, the radical Islamic government is seeking by war to impose it's version of "sharia" Islamic law, on the entire country, including the predominantly Christian and animist people in the south. The death toll there is over 2 million people - more than in Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, and all the wars in the Middle East COMBINED!! There are thousands of Christian slaves, and forced conversion in the refugee camps, often using U.S. provided food supplies.

In Iran, Christians who engage in evangelism have been marked for assassination. In Pakistan, Christians are frequent victims of a law that mandates death for anyone who blasphemes against Allah, Mohammed, or the Koran. In Northern Nigeria thousands of Christians and many muslims have been killed in conflict over the introduction of "sharia" law. In the Molucca islands of Indonesia, militant Islamic militias have killed thousands of Christians. Others have been ordered to convert, those who refused were executed. Those who succumbed (both men and women) were circumised, often with rusty knifes.

In India in recent years, there have been hundreds of attacks, many deadly, on Christians by radical Hindu groups. About half of India's 28 million Christians are outcasts "untouchables" and are even denied access to the programs that the Indian government has to help such outcasts. If you are a Christian, you are at the bottom of the heap even amoung "untouchables."

In Nepal, radical Hindus have begun attacking Christians, While in nearbySri Lanka, radical Buddhist Monks have led mobs in attacks on churches. In Myanmar (Burma), many of the tribes in the east such as the Karen, the Karenni, and the Chin are Christian. The Government is intent on subjugating them in a vicious war involving religious and ethnic cleansing, and forcible conversion to Buddhism.

The Apostle Paul teaches us that when one member of the body suffers, we all suffer (1 Cor. 12:26) and jesus said that our relation to our persecuted sisters and brothers is our relation to Him: "I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me....And the King will answer "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me" (Matt. 25:35-36, 40) Sorry for hijacking the thread more than it already is...

[cajunhillbilly]

It is true that we are seeing a large increase in persecution against Christians around the world. Lets us pray for our brothers and sisters who are suffering for their faith. :prayer: But to say that this increase necessarily means the End is just around the corner, is not Biblical. The church shall suffer persecution until the End, but no one knows when that will be. We live as though the End could occur in our life time, and plan as if it is centuries away. We should expect the Kingdom of this world to resist the advancement of the Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, but Jesus says He has overcome the world. :amen: Too many Christians sit in their little pious corners and say Woe, Woe, when they should be winning others to Christ and seeking to advance the Kingdom of our Lord. :thumbsup:

[SirTimothy]

I'm a pan-millenialist. It'll all pan out in the end--God's in charge, and He's going to do, what He's going to do, and no matter *what* theology or scripture-twisting I stick to, He's still going to do it, and he's going to do it His way. Rapture theology I think is rather badly supported, scripturally, but to be honest with you, whether we think there's a rapture or not isn't going to make any difference--remember *God* is going to be doing it, not us. :)

Timothy

[RobNJ]

I'm a pan-millenialist. It'll all pan out in the end--God's in charge, and He's going to do, what He's going to do, and no matter *what* theology or scripture-twisting I stick to, He's still going to do it, and he's going to do it His way. Rapture theology I think is rather badly supported, scripturally, but to be honest with you, whether we think there's a rapture or not isn't going to make any difference--remember *God* is going to be doing it, not us. :)

Timothy I bow to true words of wisdom!!:bow::bow:

Here's a link to a page that has a rundown on the subject:
Click Here (http://www.reformed.com/pub/rapture.htm)

[LADY DI]

Timothy, I have to agree with you!!!!
Yes, God is in charge, and He's going to do, what He's going to do ---- HIS WAY!!!!

[cajunhillbilly]

Professor Jay Adams of Westminster Seminary said that he was promil. Whatever God wants to do, he's all for it. :D

[Polycarp1]

Let me take you back to about 10 BC in your minds.

A lot of devout Jews believe in the coming of the Messiah. And everyone knows what will happen on that great Day when he comes: He will restore righteous government to Israel, throwing out those evil Herodians and the politicos who back and are favored by Herod; he will free Israel from the Roman oppression; he will restore the Temple and right worship (as opposed to what those Sadducees are following). And he will be an example to whom the Gentile nations will flock.

Well, say the more worldly and liberal, maybe we're not supposed to understand the Messianic prophecies literally. Maybe they're references to what the nation of Israel is supposed to do, not speaking of a particular man coming at a particular point in time, but rather saying what our corporate role as a people is supposed to be, over time progressing toward a brighter tomorrow.

Like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody expected Jesus. Nobody thought that the Messiah would teach a Kingdom that lies within oneself, the subjection of self to God's rule. Nobody believed in a Messiah who would be born to a poor family from Nazareth, and would be executed as a common criminal, and in dying reconcile man and God. Nobody expected a real-time Resurrection in a spiritual body. Nobody expected the transmogrification of the Law from a set of rules that could be kept to a moral imperative of a radical love of God and all men.

That was what people expected at the First Coming -- and what they didn't expect that really happened.

"The conclusion is left as an exercise for the student." ;)

[Wigglesworth]

I like the way chapter 24 of Matthew's Gospel presents the teaching of the Lord on the subject. After a tribulation, greater than any tribulation that ever was or ever will be, His elect will be gathered together with Him.

[IowaLutheran]

A recent book came out decrying the whole LaHaye/Lindsey line of thought called "The Rapture Exposed" by Barbara Rossing of the Lutheran Seminary in Chicago, which I suspect would be consistent with mainstream Anglican beliefs.

[Brian Augustyn]

Interesting fact: John Nelson Darby, articulator of the "theology" of the Rapture, was an ordained Anglican priest (in the church of Ireland) of a rather high-church stripe before developing an intense interest in eschatology.

peace,
Brian
:D

[Brian Augustyn]

Here's a link to a PBS/Frontline article on the orgins of Rapture thinking.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/amprophesy.html

peace,
Brian

:holy: