Rapture?

[Cary.Melvin]

What are the Reformed Churches views on the end times?

Amillinial, Pre-millenial, Post-millenial?

If Pre-millenial, do you believe in a Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation Rapture?

[Bulldog]

It seems to me that most Reformed churches are Ammillennial or Postmillennial, though our creeds and confessions don't define such doctrine.

I have noticed that dispensation Premil is not a position taught in many Reformed churches, although many members here do take the premil stance.

[Knight]

There's plenty of premills as well.....

You'll find the whole spectrum of Eschatological views among the Reformed community.

[Cary.Melvin]

Wern't Reformers like Luther and Calvin Amillenial?

[Knight]

I'm honestly not sure....

However, eschatology has never been a driving passion of mine.

[theseed]

I'm premellennial, but I am undecided about when the rapture is. It does not matter to me--well actually it does. Many Christians would be severely persecuted in the tribulation.

I do believe that there will be new converts in the tribulation, and that the Holy Spirit must be there for that to be possible.

[jazzbird]

I'm pre-mil, pre-wrath. It makes the most sense to me in light of what I know, however, in the end, it doesn't really matter. God is sovereign.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Wern't Reformers like Luther and Calvin Amillenial?

According to my pastor, you are correct. Luther and Calvin, among many other Reformers were Amillenial.

Personally, I've lost my faith in the dispenstational premil theory largely based upon how popular it is. I know that may sound silly, but it is hard to articulate. I am currently studying amillinialism in some of my spare time. Personally, I don't put a lot of energy into such as study because there are so many things of greater importance to know.

As posted before by another believer, I know several things for sure.

1. Jesus will return.
2. We as believers should be ready and doing our master's work.
3. There will be a judgement.
4. There will be great deception, almost enough to fool the very elect, during the time between Christ's first and second advent.

[rmwilliamsll]

Wern't Reformers like Luther and Calvin Amillenial?


terms changed roughly in the 19thC with the rise of dispensationalism
google:
chiliasm or millenialism

there is a good introduction at: http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/millenar.htm

where they write

Perhaps the Munster episode led the Protestant Reformers to reaffirm Augustinian amillennialism. Each of the three main Protestant traditions of the sixteenth century, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Anglican, had the support of the state and so continued the same Constantinian approach to theology. Both Luther and Calvin were very suspicious of millennial speculation. Calvin declared that those who engaged in calculations based on the apocalyptic portions of Scripture were "ignorant" and "malicious." The major statements of the various Protestant bodies such as the Augsburg Confession (1, xvii), the Thirty nine Articles (IV), and the Westminister Confession (chs. 32, 33), although professing faith in the return of Christ, do not support apocalyptic millenarian speculation. In certain respects, however, the Reformers inaugurated changes which would lead to a revival of interest in premillennialism. These include a more literal approach to the interpretation of Scripture, the identification of the papacy with Antichrist, and an emphasis on Bible prophecy.

[Donny_B]

Some more insights into the eschatology of Luther and Calvin and the Reformation are summarized well in this essay "An Eschatology of Grace":

http://members.aol.com/twarren14/eschagrace.html




The medieval church had plunged eschatology into the gloomy shadows of its gospel of salvation by the will, works, and worth of man.



The church of the Reformation could again pray, "Come, Lord Jesus."

John Calvin gave sharpest expression to this practical aspect of biblical eschatology in that section of his Institutes where he treated eschatology: "He alone has fully profited in the gospel who has accustomed himself to continual meditation upon the blessed resurrection" (3.25.1). This total recasting of eschatology in the light of grace is evident in the Reformation creeds.

[Bulldog]

Wern't Reformers like Luther and Calvin Amillenial?

I'm pretty sure Luther was Ammilennial, but Calvin I'm not so sure about. Calvin had many preterist views and historicst views....

[Donny_B]

Dispensationalists can also claim that Calvin supported their views, as far as the question of the future of the Jews:

John Calvin, "Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah," Calvin's Commentaries, vol. 8, 269.

" When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation, . . . which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first born in God's family, as Jews are the first born, what the prophet declares must be fulfilled, especially in them; . . . it is to be ascribed to the preeminence of that nation, who God had preferred to all other nations....God distinctly claims for Himself a certain seed, so that His redemption may be effectual in His elect and peculiar nation....God was not unmindful of the covenant which He had made with their fathers, and by which he testified that according to his eternal purpose He loved that nation; and this he confirms by this remarkable declaration, - that the grace of divine calling cannot be made void."

[CCWoody]

I'm premellennial, but I am undecided about when the rapture is.
Given your question to me about the Athanasian creed, it was easy to guess that you are a Premil.

The interesting thing here is that the Apostle's, Nicene, & Athanasian creeds are all Amillennial. Go look and see.

I'm a Partial Preterist myself.

[theseed]

Given your question to me about the Athanasian creed, it was easy to guess that you are a Premil.

The interesting thing here is that the Apostle's, Nicene, & Athanasian creeds are all Amillennial. Go look and see.

I'm a Partial Preterist myself.
i believe that history repeats itself, it's cyclical. So, many of the prophecies can be fullfilled twice.

Does that make any sense?

I've seen nothing in the Apostles Creed that seems Amil.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I second the Pre-Wrath rapture...although I am not well studied.

Has anyone read the fictional book "The Fourth Reich"?
It is really good!

[Rechtgläubig]

I've seen nothing in the Apostles Creed that seems Amil.
What about this?

"...He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead."

[theseed]

What about this?

"...He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead."He can ascend back into heaven after he rains a thousand years and defeats the last rebellion, thereby iniatiaing the 2nd ressurrection. :sorry:

[theseed]

Wern't Reformers like Luther and Calvin Amillenial?
I think many were postmillennialist.

http://www.zondervanchurchsource.com/product.asp?ISBN=0310201438

[theseed]

"Premillennialism: An historic fact"

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.htm

[CCWoody]

He can ascend back into heaven after he rains a thousand years and defeats the last rebellion, thereby iniatiaing the 2nd ressurrection. :sorry:
That would require that you add a great deal of your own theology to the creed to make it fit. In plain language, it simply says that the Lord will come to judge BOTH the living and the dead, not to initiate a 1000 year reign.

Like it or not, all three of those creeds are Amillennial.

And, yes, I do think that many of the OT prophecies spoke of 2 different things.

BTW, hang around my Bible study for a year, and I'll be sure to give you plenty of verses which are difficult for Premills. I'm very persuasive. So far I think there are only a couple whom have not yet converted to some form of Amillennialism.

I have a similar success rate with Calvinism.

Though, not really, I, but the Lord though me.

[theseed]

That would require that you add a great deal of your own theology to the creed to make it fit. In plain language, it simply says that the Lord will come to judge BOTH the living and the dead, not to initiate a 1000 year reign.

Like it or not, all three of those creeds are Amillennial.

And, yes, I do think that many of the OT prophecies spoke of 2 different things.

BTW, hang around my Bible study for a year, and I'll be sure to give you plenty of verses which are difficult for Premills. I'm very persuasive. So far I think there are only a couple whom have not yet converted to some form of Amillennialism.

I have a similar success rate with Calvinism.

Though, not really, I, but the Lord though me.
Yes, it would require me adding to the creed. Howevever, the creed is not Scripture. Also, the part about the living and the dead does not change anything from what I see.

Also, any verse you post will have been explained by some premillenialist somewhere.

[knee-v]

I attend a reformed church (PCA). I myself am a partial preterist and an amillenialist (with some postmil tendencies). My pastor is an amill, but is also a futurist. The elder at my church is a partial preterist and a postmil. I haven't met any premils at my church, nor are there any dispensationalists that I know of.

[theseed]

but is also a futurist

What is a futurist?

[CCWoody]

Yes, it would require me adding to the creed. Howevever, the creed is not Scripture. Also, the part about the living and the dead does not change anything from what I see.

Also, any verse you post will have been explained by some premillenialist somewhere.
Wanna come play here (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8094286&postcount=18)?

[Zorobabel]

I've never met a reformed person that believes in the dispensational secret rapture.

[jazzbird]

What is a futurist?

The futurist view is that the events in Revelation are yet to happen, as opposed to the preterists who believes they are passed events or historicists who believe the events of Revelation are taking place throughout the course of history.

[Donny_B]

I think many (Reformers) were postmillennialist.

About postmillennialists and the Reformation, the Second Helvetic Confession, an early Reformed creed, condemned dreams of a golden age before the Second Coming.

We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/helvetic.htm I haven't studied the amillennial perspective much, but I have begun reading some of the work from amillennialist Professor David Engelsma. He writes:


The damning judgement upon postmillennialism by the Second Helvetic Confession reflected the theology of the early Reformers, Luther and Calvin, as well as Bullinger, author of the creed. More importantly, it is the stand of the confessions that bind Reformed and Presbyterian churches and Christians today. Like premillennialists, Engelsma believes in a coming apostasy and the blessed hope of the Second Coming of Christ. He writes:



As a confessional, biblical Reformed denomination, the Protestant Reformed Churches are not open to postmillennialism. It is their solemn duty from the soon-coming Christ to expose the hopes of postmillennialism as "Jewish Dreams."

We do urgently warn our own people and all who will hear us that the kingdom of the beast will come. Indeed, it is coming now. Its features are distinct in a lawless society, an apostate church, and a uniting world of nations.

Rather then be deluded by "Jewish Dreams" Reformed Christians and their children must heed sober Christian reality.

Be prepared for the Antichrist!

Hope for the second coming of Christ! Hope only for the second coming of Christ! http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/reading/article.cgi?id=8

[Knight]

I've never met a reformed person that believes in the dispensational secret rapture.
Well, John Macarthur is dispensational and Reformed. I don't know about the secret rapture though......

[knee-v]

I attended a PCA in Mount Pleasant, SC for about a year. There was a man there who believed in a pre-trib rapture and was reformed in his soteriology. My mother also believe(d, not sure if she does still) in a rapture. She is also reformed (however, I'm also not entirely sure if she really knows what it is to be reformed based on some conversations I've had with her). Those are the only two examples that I know of. I have never met anyone else who is reformed who holds to the doctrine of a pretrib rapture.

[Donny_B]

J. Vernon McGee believed in a pre-trib rapture, and was also reformed in his soteriology. My pastor (PCUSA) believes pre-trib, as does my father and his brother (who are both retired PCUS-PCUSA ministers). They knew of many in their seminaries who also believed in the pre-trib rapture, but this was not the majority.

[Donny_B]

Here is an interesting article entitled "The Calvinistic Heritage of Dispensationalism". It was mostly spread by those with a Calvinistic theology in its first 100 years.

It may be surprising, to some, to learn that Dispensationalism was developed and spread during its first 100 years by those within a Reformed, Calvinistic tradition. It had only been in the last 75 to 50 years that Dispensationalism and some of its beliefs were disseminated in any significant way outside of the orbit of Calvinism.

The organizers of the prophetic movement in America were predominantly Calvinists. In 1876 a group led by Nathaniel West, James H. Brookes, William J. Eerdman, and Henry M. Parsons, all Presbyterians, together with Baptist A. J. Gordon, . . . These early gatherings, which became the focal points for the prophetic side of their leaders' activities, were clearly Calvinistic. Presbyterians and Calvinist Baptists predominated, while the number of Methodists was extremely small. . . . Such facts can hardly be accidental.

Proof of Marsden's point above is supplied by Samuel H. Kellogg-himself a Presbyterian and Princeton graduate-with his breakdown of the predominately dispensational Prophecy Conference in New York City in 1878. Kellogg classified the list of those that signed the call for the Conference as follows:




Presbyterians 31
Baptists 22
Congregationalists 10
United Presbyterians 10
Reformed Episcopalians 10
Episcopalians 10
Methodists 6
Adventists 5
Reformed (Dutch) 3
Lutherans 1





Kellogg concluded that "the proportion of Augustinians in the whole to be eighty-eight per cent." "The significance of this is emphasized," continues Kellogg, "by the contrasted fact that the Methodists, although one of the largest denominations of Christians in the country, were represented by only six names." Kellogg estimates that "analyses of similar gatherings since held on both sides of the Atlantic, would yield a similar result."
But in 1944, it saw a turning point, when:

In 1944, Southern Presbyterians issued a report from a committee investigating the compatibility of dispensationalism with the Westminster Confession of Faith. The committee ruled dispensationalism was not in harmony with the Church's Confession. This "report of 1944 was a crippling blow to any future that dispensational premillennialism might have within Southern Presbyterianism." This ruling effectively moved Dallas graduates away from ministry within Reformed denominations toward the independent Bible Church movement.
So, I believe that even today there are a lot more pre-trib believers among Presybterians than you would think. But the politics is such that they can't get far in seminary or in the denomination.

http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=22

[frumanchu]

What are the Reformed Churches views on the end times?

Amillinial, Pre-millenial, Post-millenial?

If Pre-millenial, do you believe in a Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation Rapture?
The standard Reformed view is amillennial. Most Calvinists I know are partial-preterist, amillennialists...as am I.

I believe in a rapture, though not in the contemporary understanding of the pre-mill pre-trib subculture that's popped up of late. My understanding is that the "rapture" is similar to the practice of the Romans around the time of Christ. When the Roman army would go out to do battle and be victorious, they would come back to the city and camp outside the city. Runners would go on ahead into the city before they arrived and proclaim the victory, at which point the people of the city would hastily erect an arch (think of the Arch de Triumphe in Paris). Then all the people of the city would go outside to meet the army and then proceed to march back into the city with them, symbolically sharing in their victory and triumph.

That is my view of what the "rapture" is...that we will be "caught up in the clouds" with Him to then descend with Him in victorious march.