Baptism for the remission of sins

[Bananna]

You're attempting to use the New Testament to discredit the doctrine of the Trinity, yet you fail to realize that the Church existed before the New Testament. How new Christians were baptized in the Early Church was in practice before there was even an agreed and circulated NT to quote from. The Church that gave you the NT also gave you the doctrine of the Trinity.

This reminds me of how far removed mainstream Christianity and even some messianics are as to the use and meaning of baptism.

I'd like to revisit the discussion on the use of the Mikveh for rights of purification and for being granted entrance into the Assembly of God's people the nation of Israel and the followers of the Way.

Baptism - immersion or Mikveh
Holy Spirit - God
Spirit of Holiness - ministering Angel.
Reborn - passing from gentile to child of Avraham
Reborn - passing from child to man or child to woman
Reborn - passing from single to married
Reborn - passing fro student to teacher
Reborn - passing from Teacher to Elder/Judge

people here are prone to throwing out pictures on baptism as if all are for the remission of sins.

Some are simply ritual purification before entering the temple.

Passing from death to life from darkness to light is a specific type of baptism very different from becoming a disciple of Christ.

bananna

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This reminds me of how far removed mainstream Christianity and even some messianics are as to the use and meaning of baptism.

I'd like to revisit the discussion on the use of the Mikveh for rights of purification and for being granted entrance into the Assembly of God's people the nation of Israel and the followers of the Way.

Baptism - immersion or Mikveh
Holy Spirit - God
Spirit of Holiness - ministering Angel.
Reborn - passing from gentile to child of Avraham
Reborn - passing from child to man or child to woman
Reborn - passing from single to married
Reborn - passing fro student to teacher
Reborn - passing from Teacher to Elder/Judge

people here are prone to throwing out pictures on baptism as if all are for the remission of sins.

Some are simply ritual purification before entering the temple.

Passing from death to life from darkness to light is a specific type of baptism very different from becoming a disciple of Christ.

bananna If no one else understood what you are saying, I did. :thumbsup:

[Bananna]

Thats okay, Maybe it is too unfamiliar but if they read scripture it may grow on them...
bananna

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Thats okay, Maybe it is too unfamiliar but if they read scripture it may grow on them...
bananna I have read the bible through many times, and each time I do I learn something new. The bible is truly a book that must be studied, or else a person can come to a mutitude of wrong thinking.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This reminds me of how far removed mainstream Christianity and even some messianics are as to the use and meaning of baptism.

I'd like to revisit the discussion on the use of the Mikveh for rights of purification and for being granted entrance into the Assembly of God's people the nation of Israel and the followers of the Way.

Baptism - immersion or Mikveh
Holy Spirit - God
Spirit of Holiness - ministering Angel.
Reborn - passing from gentile to child of Avraham
Reborn - passing from child to man or child to woman
Reborn - passing from single to married
Reborn - passing fro student to teacher
Reborn - passing from Teacher to Elder/Judge

people here are prone to throwing out pictures on baptism as if all are for the remission of sins.

Some are simply ritual purification before entering the temple.

Passing from death to life from darkness to light is a specific type of baptism very different from becoming a disciple of Christ.

bananna How well does the word mikvah align with baptism. Sometimes I think the translators are in error about some of their translations.

[Bananna]

You mean we already came to the wrong thinking and now we need a plumb line to straighten us out.

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

You mean we already came to the wrong thinking and now we need a plumb line to straighten us out. No. I am asking for your understanding of that word. What are the facts, or what is your opinion.

[Bananna]

Sorry you snuck an extra post between there.

It means Immersion in English.

Washing by association

Purifying, sanctifying and reserection.

The concept of being reporn or raised from death to life from darkness to Light.

Baptism is so much more than just a once in a life time dunking. Good practise to use before meeting with God. Probabaly if we start monthly Healing sessions I'l ask for them to consider digging the Mikveh again out at the Elder's property.

Bananna

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

Sorry you snuck an extra post between there.

It means Immersion in English.

Washing by association

Purifying, sanctifying and reserection.

The concept of being reporn or raised from death to life from darkness to Light.

Baptism is so much more than just a once in a life time dunking. Good practise to use before meeting with God. Probabaly if we start monthly Healing sessions I'l ask for them to consider digging the Mikveh again out at the Elder's property.

Bananna If I understand you correctly, you mean like ritual Baptism (Mikvah,) like the Essene Jews preformed at Qumran. How can more than one Baptism be justifided, because the bible teaches "One Baptism." Do you see that type of Mikvah as different from the Mikvah in Yahshua's name?

[Henaynei]

it doesn't say there is only one type of "baptism" - only that there "is one 'baptism'" - biblical "baptism" is about ceremonial cleansing according to HaShem's instructions - only about ceremonial cleansing - nothing else --- now there are many times when ceremonial cleansing is called for - but it is still only about ceremonial cleansing

btw - t'villah (immerse) in the mikvah (gathered living water) was being done by Israel LONG before the "essenes" were doing it, and the most prevalent place for mikvot was at the Temple before entering ....

G-d instructed *many* times that one was to t'villah all through the T'NaKah - how then could he then call himself a liar by later saying differently?

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

it doesn't say there is only one type of "baptism" - only that there "is one 'baptism'" - biblical "baptism" is about ceremonial cleansing according to HaShem's instructions - only about ceremonial cleansing - nothing else --- now there are many times when ceremonial cleansing is called for - but it is still only about ceremonial cleansing

btw - t'villah (immerse) in the mikvah (gathered living water) was being done by Israel LONG before the "essenes" were doing it, and the most prevalent place for mikvot was at the Temple before entering ....

G-d instructed *many* times that one was to t'villah all through the T'NaKah - how then could he then call himself a liar by later saying differently? It sounds to me that we are talking about bathing before interring the temple. If I am wrong, then perhaps if you provide some scripture as an example would help.

[Henaynei]

It sounds to me that we are talking about bathing before interring the temple. If I am wrong, then perhaps if you provide some scripture as an example would help. that was a t'villah/immersion ... and is still done before going to shul in orthodox communities, esp on Erev Shabbat .... and is about ceremonial cleansing

Yochanan's baptism/t'villah was nothing new - one did not t'villah to GET remission of sins but to ceremonially signify having already GOTTEN remission of sins - only the Blood of Messiah will GET you remission of sins - baptism has *nothing* to do with GETTING remission of sins

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

that was a t'villah/immersion ... and is still done before going to shul in orthodox communities, esp on Erev Shabbat .... and is about ceremonial cleansing

Yochanan's baptism/t'villah was nothing new - one did not t'villah to GET remission of sins but to ceremonially signify having already GOTTEN remission of sins - only the Blood of Messiah will GET you remission of sins - baptism has *nothing* to do with GETTING remission of sins Are we talking about custom or tradition; or are we talking about law or commandment. Any scripture would be helpful.

[Henaynei]

Ex 29:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+29:4&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "Bring Aharon and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting, and wash them with water.

Ex 30:20 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+30:20&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)when they enter the tent of meeting - they are to wash with water, so that they won't die. Also when they approach the altar to minister by burning an offering for AD-NAI,

Ex 40:12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=ex+40:12&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)"Then bring Aharon and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water.

Le 14:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+14:8&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) He who is to be purified must wash his clothes, shave off all his hair and bathe himself in water. Then he will be clean; and after that, he may enter the camp; but he must live outside his tent for seven days.


Le 14:9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+14:9&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) On the seventh day he is to shave all the hair off his head, also his beard and eyebrows - he must shave off all his hair; and he is to wash his clothes and bathe his body in water; and he will be clean.


Le 15:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:5&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever touches his bed is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:6&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever sits on anything the person with the discharge sat on is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:7 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:7&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Anyone who touches the body of the person with the discharge is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:8&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) If the person with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, the latter is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:10&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever touches anything that was under him will be unclean until evening; he who carries those things is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:11&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) If the person with the discharge fails to rinse his hands in water before touching someone, that person is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:13 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:13&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "'When a person with a discharge has become free of it, he is to count seven days for his purification. Then he is to wash his clothes and bathe his body in running water; after that, he will be clean.


Le 15:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:16&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "'If a man has a seminal emission, he is to bathe his entire body in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:18 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:18&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)If a man goes to bed with a woman and has sexual relations, both are to bathe themselves in water; they will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:21 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:21&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever touches her bed is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:22 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:22&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever touches anything she sits on is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 15:27 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+15:27&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Whoever touches those things will be unclean; he is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening.


Le 16:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+16:4&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) He is to put on the holy linen tunic, have the linen shorts next to his bare flesh, have the linen sash wrapped around him, and be wearing the linen turban - they are the holy garments. He is to bathe his body in water and put them on.


Le 16:24 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+16:24&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Then he is to bathe his body in water in a holy place, put on his other clothes, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, thus making atonement for himself and for the people.


Le 16:26 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+16:26&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "The man who let go the goat for 'Az'azel is to wash his clothes and bathe his body in water; afterwards, he may return to the camp.


Le 16:28 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+16:28&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) The person burning them is to wash his clothes and bathe his body in water; afterwards, he may return to the camp.


Le 17:15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+17:15&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) "Anyone eating an animal that dies naturally or is torn to death by wild animals, whether he is a citizen or a foreigner, is to wash his clothes and bathe himself in water; he will be unclean until evening; then he will be clean.


Le 17:16 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=le+17:16&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) But if he doesn't wash them or bathe his body, he will bear the consequences of his wrongdoing."


Nu 19:7 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+19:7&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)Then the cohen is to wash his clothes and himself in water, after which he may re-enter the camp; but the cohen will remain unclean until evening.

Nu 19:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+19:8&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)The person who burned up the heifer is to wash his clothes and himself in water, but he will remain unclean until evening.

Nu 19:19 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=nu+19:19&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)The clean person will sprinkle the unclean person on the third and seventh days. On the seventh day he will purify him; then he will wash his clothes and himself in water; and he will be clean at evening.

De 23:11 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=de+23:11&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) When evening arrives he is to bathe himself in water, and after sunset he may enter the camp.


2Ki 5:10 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2ki+5:10&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Elisha sent a messenger to him, who said, "Go, and bathe in the Yarden seven times. Your skin will become as it was, and you will be clean."


2Ki 5:12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2ki+5:12&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) Aren't Amanah and Parpar, the rivers of Dammesek, better than all the water in Isra'el? Why can't I bathe in them and be clean?" So he turned and went off in a rage.


2Ki 5:13 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2ki+5:13&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) But his servants approached him and said, "My father! If the prophet had asked you to do something really difficult, wouldn't you have done it? So, doesn't it make even more sense to do what he says, when it's only, 'Bathe, and be clean'?"

2Ki 5:14 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=2ki+5:14&version=cjb&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) So he went down and immersed himself seven times in the Yarden, as the man of God had said to do; and his skin was restored and became like the skin of a child; and he became clean.

[ContraMundum]

This reminds me of how far removed mainstream Christianity and even some messianics are as to the use and meaning of baptism.

I'd like to revisit the discussion on the use of the Mikveh for rights of purification and for being granted entrance into the Assembly of God's people the nation of Israel and the followers of the Way.

Baptism - immersion or Mikveh
Holy Spirit - God
Spirit of Holiness - ministering Angel.
Reborn - passing from gentile to child of Avraham
Reborn - passing from child to man or child to woman
Reborn - passing from single to married
Reborn - passing fro student to teacher
Reborn - passing from Teacher to Elder/Judge

people here are prone to throwing out pictures on baptism as if all are for the remission of sins.

Some are simply ritual purification before entering the temple.

Passing from death to life from darkness to light is a specific type of baptism very different from becoming a disciple of Christ.

bananna


Of course, this is only a problem for those with Zwinglian theology - eg. most modern bapti-costals.

If you hold to a Apostolic/Jewish view of baptism, this is not a problem.

Interestingly, one rabbi once told me that he believed that when DNA testing catches up, it will prove that only Orthodox conversions change a person. The parallel to Christian sacramental theology is obvious. The idea in classical Christian orthodoxy that valid sacraments change a person is in continuity with this Hebraic tradition as well. In other words, to those holding a more ancient, pre-Reformation view of the sacraments, becoming a disciple of Yeshua is only a tiny proportion of what actually happens when HaShem baptises you sacramentally through the water and Spirit.

Interesting note for the Zwinglians too- as is obvious from what is pointed out by Bananna above, the Greek work for baptism means more than "immersion". It can also be used for sprinkling, pouring and other ritual cleansing acts. This is the meaning found both in the LXX and in the Book of Hebrews.

[ContraMundum]

Of course, according to the scriptures, the water of baptism, the Holy Spirit and the blood of Christ are all connected and inseperable. The Word, Spirit and blood are the effective agent, the water and word are the physical witness and the verifying means.


1 Jn 5:8 "And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one."

[MichaelTheeArchAngel]

This reminds me of how far removed mainstream Christianity and even some messianics are as to the use and meaning of baptism.

I'd like to revisit the discussion on the use of the Mikveh for rights of purification and for being granted entrance into the Assembly of God's people the nation of Israel and the followers of the Way.


Passing from death to life from darkness to light is a specific type of baptism very different from becoming a disciple of Christ.

bananna This last sentence is a bit of a question. Are you sure you worded that the way you wanted?