Kosovo Independemce...

[Kolya]

...watch the new 'Ship High In Transit' fly now!
(That is how that acronym became synonymous with smelly stuff. It was used by Lloyds of London Insurance to describe manure on ships. It could not be stored in the hold as it caused methane gas explosions!:))

Kosovo is no friend of the Orthodox Church by the way!!! That is why the Russian Federation is against it.

[EmperorConstantine]

I am not happy.

As a high school student, I'm ticked off because our government which promises to cooperate with others; did not. There were no talks with the Serbian government as for their thoughts.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'm worried for our Orthodox brethren in Kosovo. Especially for monasteries and the fact that Muslims destroy too many things. Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.

As a historian I am unhappy because not one country in the EU considered how much Kosovo means to Serbia. Exceptions are Romania, Greece and others who did not not vote for independence backing.


This gives precedent to many things besides Putin's claims to areas of Georgia. This gives precedent for Mexico to take the Southwest, Cuba to take Miami and so on and so forth.

[Kolya]

This gives precedent to many things besides Putin's claims to areas of Georgia. This gives precedent for Mexico to take the Southwest, Cuba to take Miami and so on and so forth.

You're right on the money! What about Scotland and the UK?

[EmperorConstantine]

You're right on the money! What about Scotland and the UK?
Why not?

The Scots have been fighting for a good 500 years or so.

As a person of Scottish descent I wouldn't mind!
Nor would I mind about Wales and Ireland having the whole island for the same reasons.

I do have to respect Spain though. Then again, without the monarchy they are effectively nothing! Kind of like a fairly modern feudal state when you think about it...

[stephenc]

Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.

That's a hard claim, friend. Are you prepared to back it up?

[Philothei]

International Law, Not Independence
By Vojin Joksimovich (http://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich)
January 6, 2007

In March 2007 it will be eight years since the Kosovo war and the US-led NATO intervention in gross violation of a host of international laws including the UN Charter. The Western part of the international community was determined to resolve the Kosovo status issue by the end of 2006. However, the UN Kosovo mediator, former Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari, has delayed his proposal until after the Serbian parliamentary elections on January 21, 2007 in order to reinforce the democratic camp within Serbia. There were other important considerations such as sharp divisions within the Contact Group (US, UK, Germany, France, Italy and Russia), the veto holding members of the UN Security Council (US, UK, France, Russia and China) and the 27 member European Union (EU). The issue can be straightforwardly resolved by staying within the bounds of the international law and the UN charter which guarantees the inviolability of borders of all internationally recognized states, their sovereignty and territorial integrity. A compromise cannot be found unless the seven-year quest by some Western powers, notably the US and the UK, for conditional independence is not dropped. Nonetheless, according to numerous media reports Ahtisaari proposal is likely to advocate some kind of a conditional independence despite the threat of a Russian veto in the UNSC. Adherence to the international law is not only in the interest of stability in the Balkans and thus of Europe but it is in the US interest as well as other Western powers. German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has stated that “Serbia is most important country in the region. Without a stable Serbia there will be no peace there.”

Background
The Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija, Kosmet in Serbian but for brevity reduced to Kosovo in this essay, provides identity to the Serbian nation, a cradle of the Serbian civilization. The international media ignores the province of Metohija in order to negate 800 years old existence of the Serbian Orthodox Church. The term Metohija derives from the Greek word Metox, which refers to lands set aside for the use of the Church. The Albanians see Kosmet as a part of Greater Albania or alternatively ethnically pure sovereign state. To Albanian mafia it is a safe haven for their criminal operations. To Al Qaeda it is another Balkan terrorist hub. To the Islamists it is a part of recycled Balkan caliphate. To the U.S. and Germany it has provided an opportunity to exploit the Serb-Albanian conflict in order to strengthen their respective geostrategic positions in the Balkans. President Clinton often stated that he went to war to defend “poor Muslims.” Mike Jackson, NATO top commander in Kosovo who recently retired as Chief of the General Staff in the British Army, said: “Of course when we come to Kosovo in 1999, the West’s intervention was almost entirely predicated on the protection of a Muslim population.”

[Philothei]

http://www.serbianna.com/backgrounds/newsbox_gray/news_frame_object_top_left.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/images/blank.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/backgrounds/newsbox_gray/news_frame_object_top_right.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/images/blank.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich/005_files/grater_albania.jpgMap of the Greater Albania that Muslim Albanians in charge of Kosovo seek to establish by acquiring territory from 4 of their neighboring countries: Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece.

[Philothei]

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich/005_files/freedom.jpg



Religious freedom through the barrel of the gun: Bishop Artemije protected by 4 UN body guards in the Muslim-dominated Kosovo.http://www.serbianna.com/images/blank.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/backgrounds/newsbox_gray/news_frame_object_bottom_le.gifhttp://www.serbianna.com/images/blank.gif

[Philothei]

What an irony.... "helping the mulsims" to fight off the Europeans? And then fighting the muslims in Iraque... try to figure this out....

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich/005.shtml

[Kolya]

What an irony.... "helping the mulsims" to fight off the Europeans? And then fighting the muslims in Iraque... try to figure this out....

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/joksimovich/005.shtml

I'm not going to even try to answer that. The world has gone nuts!

[Andrew21091]

As an Orthodox Christian, I'm worried for our Orthodox brethren in Kosovo. Especially for monasteries and the fact that Muslims destroy too many things. Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.


I hear you there my friend. I'm also very concerned for our Orthodox brothers and sisters who live in the Kosovo area. They need our prayers even more now.

[Philothei]

Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.


Hey EC .... as an almost eyewitness I will tell you non french of anyone else would sit there and let them distroy the churches...
I personally would need more evidence as to that...

I would confess that the mulsims did a job on those churches.... and monasteries.

The European deligation they did try their best and still do. It is not easy policing an area that is so charged with hatread and malice....

[Thekla]

:(

I don't know what to say anymore.

I will post this here also:
St. Nikolai, well pleasing to God, pray for the people of Kosovo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF5qeVfdavY

[Philothei]

that was very nice :)
Thanks Thekla

[Avatar]

Great posts. Can some of you come here?

http://christianforums.com/t6889125-kosovo-declears-independance.html

[EmperorConstantine]

That's a hard claim, friend. Are you prepared to back it up?
As soon as I can find the source, I will be more than happy to. :)



This still has me greatly peo-ed. Tempted to live on Mt. Rainer as a hermit while cursing the world of the mess it's in.

Other new nations with the Kosovo Precedent: Basque Country, Catalonia, Arragon, Galicia, Brittany, Normandy, Bavaria, Tibet, Karabakha goes to Armenia, etc etc.

[Matrona]

Other new nations with the Kosovo Precedent: Basque Country, Catalonia, Arragon, Galicia, Brittany, Normandy, Bavaria, Tibet, Karabakha goes to Armenia, etc etc.

Even if Albania had a legitimate claim to Kosovo, I can't for the life of me see how its amputation from Serbia is somehow a more pressing need than the liberation of Tibet from the evils of communist China. :mad:

[EmperorConstantine]

Even if Albania had a legitimate claim to Kosovo, I can't for the life of me see how its amputation from Serbia is somehow a more pressing need than the liberation of Tibet from the evils of communist China. :mad:
Because it is part of Europe and the EU, UK and US have no interest in some strange group of really high, cold mountains.

In terms of importance comparison, while difficult to, I shall try: first 13 US states: gone. Take the land from St. Petersburg down to what was Stalingrad: gone. London to Bristol and down: gone. Tokyo to Kyoto and most of the island of Honshu: gone. Berlin to Hamburg and up: gone. All of Denmark that is not geographically connected to Europe: gone. Castille area: gone. Mecca to Medina: gone. Thebes to Alexandria: gone. Paris to Alsace-Lorraine and up to Belgian border: gone. Kiev to Sevastopol: gone. Thessaloníki to Athens: gone. Beijing, Shanghai and most of Eastern China: gone. Islamabad to Karachi: gone. Tripoli to Beirut: gone. Damascus: gone. Baghdad to Basra: gone.

[EmperorConstantine]

Just a thought, for "compensation" the area of Republika Srpska should be given to Serbia.

After all, the Serbs are the "ethnic majority" in the area.

[stephenc]

Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.


What you'll have to show to back up this claim is this; that the highly professional French and (especially) German soldiers, sent as a peacekeeping security force to an extremely volatile region, whose mission is above all maintainence of stability and trying against all odds to reduce the antagonism of the differnt ethnic and religious groups, would, in a burst of irrational "Roman Catholic disdain/hatred for Orthodoxy" (which I've never felt, never know any Catholic to feel, and certainly find to be unrealistic among highly trained soldiers who in the main are probably non-Catholic) help the muslims actively to destroy Orthodox churches and monastries.

That's a real long shot, man.

I can understand the frustration and bitterness over the destruction if churches and monastries, and over almost every other aspect of this conflict.

But go easy on the wild claims; they don't help.

[Jacob4707]

The Wall Street Journal sees it as a positive:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120330598927374701.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

[Lukaris]

The Wall Street Journal sees it as a positive:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120330598927374701.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks
Same old bad Serb and everyone else is good disinformation & propaganda. It is interesting that of all the factions in the Yugoslavia disintigration, at least the Serbs will collectively admit their faults but will the Croats, Kosovar Albanians, Croat Muslims?? Individuals yes, but their own organized political extremists? (so approved of by most US & western media outlets) No. Interstingly, a war criminal is head of Kosovo while Serb war criminals (Milosovec & Karovic) die before their cases are even tried in the Hague (none dare call it conspiracy?). This all must be good for business since that is the Wall Street Journal is apparently interested in.

[Philothei]

The Wall Street Journal sees it as a positive:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120330598927374701.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks
And how all these states are going to support themselves.?.. In all honesty the EU will support them at the expense of Europrean economy. that is the reason the US has no problem and even endorses the independence of these nations... We have a bunch of them now in Eastern Europe... Bottom line they will make good 'slave' workers for the rest of the capitalistic world... too bad they themselves do not realize that....


And not ALL western countries are with Kosovo's independence


The split reflected deep divisions within the 27-nation European Union a day after Kosovo declared independence.



Spain is not going to recognize and still waiting to see who else .... China is not and so Tawian... I am sure Greece will not either....

[Silentchapel]

The Wall Street Journal sees it as a positive:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120330598927374701.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks
That article if swarming with such filthy lies that it makes me want to puke. :sick: If I may...

When Croatia and Bosnia did the same, the Serbs started wars that left a quarter million dead.
Ex-cuuuuse me? The whole Bosnia thing happened because mudzahedins started slaughtering Serbs!

So Serbia's resort to violent rhetoric in response to Kosovo's declaration of independence yesterday counts as a kind of Balkan progress.
"California proclaims independence from the US. The President sits calmly and does nothing." Yeah right. When 15% of country's territory is being forcebly taken away no one in the right mind would remain calm & peaceful.

By taking the lead during the 1999 aerial war that forced Slobodan Milosevic's ethnic cleansers from Kosovo
Ooooh man I remember that one. Bombard innocent people to force a tyrant to change his mind!

A sovereign Kosovo, which follows the entry of even tinier Montenegro into the club of nations, can be a force for good in the region and in the wider Europe.
(Both of these 'tinier countries' are swarming with criminal which is their primary source of income btw)

Though lawyers may quibble, Kosovo differs in no way from the other stand-alone parts of Yugoslavia that won their freedom after 1991, and are now better off for it.
Kosovo differs in the fact that IT WAS NEVER AN INDEPENDENT STATE. God! As for the lawyers comment, I find it a typical piece of politics we've been getting from the US: "Who cares about law, what matters is what we want."

Serbian lobbyists portray the Kosovars as Muslim terrorists, but that strains credulity, given their moderate and secular practice of Islam (and Christianity) and their stated commitment to democracy.
No comment. Only a handful of Albanians are Christians. And check out www.kosovo.net, you're see who're we're portraying as terrorists: child murderers.

Western chaperones will also have to watch the fragile multiethnic constructs in nearby Bosnia and Macedonia, where separatists may try to use Kosovo independence to push for a breakup.
It should say ... are using Kosovo independence to push for a breakup. I heard it already for Catalonia.

Responsible for and unapologetic about so much bloodletting in the 1990s, it doesn't seem to realize that history has moved on.
Since no one is asking us about our side of the story. We've had a lot of rotten eggs, but man, those other nations were not exactly angelic either.

The furious reaction to Kosovo independence has been redolent of Milosevic's "Greater Serbia" nationalism.
Hitler argument. The journalist has no idea about the 'Great Albania' scheme which is formed from Albania, Kosovo and parts of Macedonia and Montenegro.

Serbia needs another leader who can acknowledge the country's cultural and historical links to Kosovo, while accepting its neighbor's desire for freedom.
What he fails to mention is that Djindjic was well aware of Kosovo's actual status - he was against the separatism and was informed of all the Kosovo's illegal activities.

Kosovo's independence opens the way to bringing this region into Europe, which is a victory for everyone, including the Serbs.
We have a saying here: "He said it and survived" - meaning that something said somrthing incredebly ridiculous without realizing it. Kosovo simply has no means of being independent, lacking infrastructure and being funded mostly by white slave trade and drug smuggling. The sole way for it to survive is to get help from Western countries, which won't go on indefinetely. And then...

[Silentchapel]

A far level-headed article:
http://www.aim.org/guest-column/stability-for-tragic-kosovo/

[EmperorConstantine]

There's that old political cartoon from before World War I depicting the Kaiser, King of England, I believe Tsar Nicholas II was also in this, but it also had the leaders of France. They were all sitting on the lid of a boiling pot labeled "Balkan Troubles".

History repeats itself friends.

[Silentchapel]

Majority of people on my Serbian Orthodox forum believe this:
1) US is the world's biggest weapons producer.
2) It does them good to have potential war areas.
3) Kosovo cannot survive financially on it's own - but with all the drug trade that's going on, it can pay a hefty sum to the US in order to win US's support.
4) On the other hand, the US needs a Balkans country that will worship US because of military bases to be used because of / against Russia.

[stephenc]

Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.

As soon as I can find the source, I will be more than happy to. :)

I am prepared to wait a long time.

[Silentchapel]

I wouldn't say that the soldiers help destroy the monasteries - they only helped as far as not really doing what they were supposed to do. While I'd say it has nothing to do with their Roman Catholic-ness (no one ever said they're practicing Catholics), I still remember this RC chaplain that offered to serve a mass for the people in refugee camps (which was a wrong thing to do, since he barely escaped the mob), and later on he stole the relics from the altar of a desecrated monastery.

[nestoj]

Yup, I remember him. And the guy who asked a nun "Well, what do you think?" after she told them that she was raped. But, there are Italians at Decani doing all they can.

[Xpycoctomos]

I am not happy.

As a high school student, I'm ticked off because our government which promises to cooperate with others; did not. There were no talks with the Serbian government as for their thoughts.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'm worried for our Orthodox brethren in Kosovo. Especially for monasteries and the fact that Muslims destroy too many things. Also include the fact that many French and German EU troops actually helped the Muslims destroy churches and monasteries because of their Roman Catholic-ness.

As a historian I am unhappy because not one country in the EU considered how much Kosovo means to Serbia. Exceptions are Romania, Greece and others who did not not vote for independence backing.


This gives precedent to many things besides Putin's claims to areas of Georgia. This gives precedent for Mexico to take the Southwest, Cuba to take Miami and so on and so forth.
Spain spoke against Kosovo's desired independence saying they should obey international law. Their perspective was mostly influenced by the fact that they deal with their own region with a penchant for separation (The Basque Country). Just thought I would throw that in there.

[Xpycoctomos]

Why not?

The Scots have been fighting for a good 500 years or so.

As a person of Scottish descent I wouldn't mind!
Nor would I mind about Wales and Ireland having the whole island for the same reasons.

I do have to respect Spain though. Then again, without the monarchy they are effectively nothing! Kind of like a fairly modern feudal state when you think about it...
Now you lost me... lol

[Xpycoctomos]

As soon as I can find the source, I will be more than happy to. :)



This still has me greatly peo-ed. Tempted to live on Mt. Rainer as a hermit while cursing the world of the mess it's in.

Other new nations with the Kosovo Precedent: Basque Country, Catalonia, Arragon, Galicia, Brittany, Normandy, Bavaria, Tibet, Karabakha goes to Armenia, etc etc.
Basque Country, yes.

Catalonia... only if you take a very cursory and undetailed look at their relations. They are much too business saavy to care about sucession. Aragon? this is the first I have ever heard of this. Back it up please.

Galicia? No. They want some special rights, and tehy have them. They are quite content on the whole and not a worry for the rest of the country.

Sure, you can find Catalanes and Gallegos who want sucession, just as you can find Texans who want the same. But they aren't an important group of people nor do they know what they are talking about. The Basque Country is the only Spanish Region that is on the Spanish Federal radar. And Aragon?

You still lost me on the Spain/monarchy comment lol

As far as France and Germany and their "Roman Catholic-ness", I think we can be assured that neither one (as a nation, not as individuals, but as a nation and a governemnt) show no evidence that they care about their "catholic-ness" certainly not enough to have anything to do with why they might help muslims. If it were to be something that could be easily pin-pointed (and I am not saying it could be), it would be the fact taht they have a HUGE Muslim population. Besides, why would their "Catholic-ness" make them want to hurt the Orthodox OVER Muslims. Please, let's not refer to the Sack of Constantinople. that was a completely different situation and France and Germany are in no way the Holy Roman Empire. lol

[EmperorConstantine]

Now you lost me... lol
Sorry. :sorry:

Basque Country, yes.

Catalonia... only if you take a very cursory and undetailed look at their relations. They are much too business saavy to care about sucession. Aragon? this is the first I have ever heard of this. Back it up please.

Galicia? No. They want some special rights, and tehy have them. They are quite content on the whole and not a worry for the rest of the country.

Sure, you can find Catalanes and Gallegos who want sucession, just as you can find Texans who want the same. But they aren't an important group of people nor do they know what they are talking about. The Basque Country is the only Spanish Region that is on the Spanish Federal radar. And Aragon?

You still lost me on the Spain/monarchy comment lol
Well, when you look at how Spain is organized into groups of autonomous regions, it does resemble a feudal state with the monarchy being the only "real" central figure. Either way, each autonomous region does very much have the potential to split.

Aragon was thrown in with the rest of my rant.


As far as France and Germany and their "Roman Catholic-ness", I think we can be assured that neither one (as a nation, not as individuals, but as a nation and a governemnt) show no evidence that they care about their "catholic-ness" certainly not enough to have anything to do with why they might help muslims. If it were to be something that could be easily pin-pointed (and I am not saying it could be), it would be the fact taht they have a HUGE Muslim population. Besides, why would their "Catholic-ness" make them want to hurt the Orthodox OVER Muslims. Please, let's not refer to the Sack of Constantinople. that was a completely different situation and France and Germany are in no way the Holy Roman Empire. lol
My dad has received a number of emails about French and German troops actually participating in sacks and looting. However, he'd have to dig them up first.

[Xpycoctomos]

Well, when you look at how Spain is organized into groups of autonomous regions, it does resemble a feudal state with the monarchy being the only "real" central figure. Either way, each autonomous region does very much have the potential to split.

Hmm... Perhaps it may seem so on paper (???) but it really isn't that way. First of all, there is no desire to split from anyone except the Basque Country. Second of all, many aspects of the country is run at the central level, education being one of the bigger ones that come to mind. If you look at even the highway system, it's like a wheel with Madrid as it's radius. It creates a nice visual for the reality of Spanish society and politics which is that all things lead to madrid (in a much greater way than Washington DC is for us). It's an extremely centralized country. But yes, regions do have certain autonomy, granted to them by the Federal government. But the political autonomy is no more independent than our States are here in the US. The comparison with Kosovo taht possible works in any way is the Basque Country.

Aragon was thrown in with the rest of my rant.

lol


My dad has received a number of emails about French and German troops actually participating in sacks and looting. However, he'd have to dig them up first.

I don't doubt this... or at least, that's not my point. I am not trying to say that Germans and French troops haven't done this, but to suggest that it is because of their innate "Catholic-ness" is absurd and unsubstantiated.

[nestoj]

There's a French priest steeling the relics I know of:
http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/June_09/3.html

but I have no simmilar info on German troops, and I do have a very positive knowledge about the Italian troops....guess there's a rotten apple in every basket.

[EmperorConstantine]

Not exactly "huge" or anything, but still noteworthy.

Kosovo suspends rebel Serb police

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7272245.stm

[Thekla]

history repeats ...

http://europenews.dk/en/node/7888

[SpyridonOCA]

I'd be more than happy to recognize the independence of Kosovo if the rights of the Serbian minority were protected. I doubt that such is the case.

[EmperorConstantine]

I'd be more than happy to recognize the independence of Kosovo if the rights of the Serbian minority were protected. I doubt that such is the case.
Thaci claims that they will be.

Two things...
1) he claims, but will not do since I highly doubt he's abandoned his KLA past.

2) they'll probably draw a line between "Serbian people" and "Serbian evidence of their ever being the original inhibitors of this land". Basically, I can see him protecting the people more than I can protecting monasteries, churches, cemeteries and other structures of Serbian history.