Charismatic gifts

[WelshJesusFreak]

How do fundies (if i'm allowed to say that) think on the gifts of the spirit? i've heard stuff for and against, is it pretty diverse between fundie denoms?

[BarbB]

Pretty diverse, I would say. Depends upon which denom. the fundie belongs to, probably. A fundie Methodist minister I know prays in tongues which would freak out his congregation if they knew! :D

[ChrisB]

I agree with newlamb - it depends on the Church. I feel the gifts of the spirit are for this age and earnestly seek them, but I know many who say they were for the apostolic age only.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

True. It depends. While gifts were passed by the apostles, God still has the power to use them today. While I doubt a lot of the so called gifts out there (especially tongues) are real, some people truely do have these powers.

[aggie03]

If by gifts of the spirit you mean manifestations of the spirit, as per 1 Corinthians 12, 13 ,14 - then I do not believe that these exist any longer as they did in the 1st century.

[J.A.I]

If by gifts of the spirit you mean manifestations of the spirit, as per 1 Corinthians 12, 13 ,14 - then I do not believe that these exist any longer as they did in the 1st century.

Hmm... explain ?


But in answer to the OP... Being a fundie really has nothing to do w/spiritual gifts.

It's denominational... I am Pentecostal/Charismatic, and a Fundamentalist... and I believe and have seen the gifts of the Spirit.

[Celestron]

I attend a Church of Christ, but hold no different beliefs than charimatic disciples..i even speak in tongues, have experienced power from somewhere anyway slaying me in the spirit, and have witnessed miracles.

i'm a little stronger on baptism because i think there is a more correctness to scripture rather than an opporutunity to judge one's salvation.

i won't judge a disciple who dies before he gets baptized.. i presume he's saved anyway.

[J.A.I]

We all deny the gifts, but privately go into our prayer closets and speak in tongues.

I haven't seen anyone deny the gifts that has them......... *confused*

[Victorian Rose]

But in answer to the OP... Being a fundie really has nothing to do w/spiritual gifts.

It's denominational... I am Pentecostal/Charismatic, and a Fundamentalist... and I believe and have seen the gifts of the Spirit.
Same here. I am a Charismatic WOFer and a Fundamentalist.

[Svt4Him]

I'm all for them.

[PaladinGirl]

Well, I don't really know what I believe about the gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues. I truthfully feel that a lot of churches are doing it wrong. Doesn't the Bible say that only one person should speak in tongues at a time and that there should be an interpreter? Well, I've only been to one or two Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and it seems that sometimes more than one person is speaking in tongues at a time and I have never seen an interpreter there to interpret what they were saying. As for being slain in the spirit, I truthfully do not believe in it. I have never seen it mentioned in the Bible and doubt that it is a Biblical thing to do. I don't know whether the gifts of the Spirit are for today or not but I feel as though maybe they are not.

[twistedsketch]

If "slain in the Spirit" means recieving a vision, as in Acts 10:9-23, I don't have a problem with it. If gifts of healing and tounges are used properly in churches, as in 1 Corinthians 12-14, I do not have a problem with them. I just wish charismatic churches and Christians really would practice these gifts according to Scripture. Too many of them don't seem to.

[Svt4Him]

So if the gifts have passed, then faith has passed as well, as faith is a gift?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think you are misunderstanding some of the people's points. Faith is a gift from God, yes. But they are referring to the fact that certain gifts were only seen being passed down from the apostles. Hope this clarifies.

[Svt4Him]

Nope. But thanks.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Read the NT in Acts especially. You will see how some gifts were specifically passed by the laying of hands. Faith on the other hand is given without such prequisites. When you finish reading through, let me know if you still have questions.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Really, so everyone at Pentacost had hands laid on them? Hrmmmm.....

[J.A.I]

Bizzlebin - Scriptural backup ?

[ChrisB]

As for being slain in the spirit, I truthfully do not believe in it. I have never seen it mentioned in the Bible and doubt that it is a Biblical thing to do.

What about these instances?

Genesis 17
2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Numbers 22
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.


Ezekiel 1
28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD . When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.


Ezekiel 44
4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD , and I fell facedown.


Acts 9
3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

In Biblical times to fall at someones feet was to show great respect. Falling when the Spirit of God comes over you is no different surely?

[Svt4Him]

Read the NT in Acts especially. You will see how some gifts were specifically passed by the laying of hands. Faith on the other hand is given without such prequisites. When you finish reading through, let me know if you still have questions.And in Acts 10, who laid on the hands? And it seems these 'prequisites' are not Biblical. I don't recall anywhere where it says we have to have an apostle lay hands on someone for gifts. Timothy mentions the laying on of hands, but that is an idiom.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How did they receive the Holy Ghost?

[Kelly]

As long as love is in there, and ppl aren't caught up into pressures to display them (can I do it? I can't do it so therefore I don't have the holy spirit within me, etc) then I think they are a great part of our faith.

If they become the focus I think there is trouble. I don't think that Jesus gave them to us to cause division or 'rank' within the church.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Do not take me out of context. Do not associate me with a side I am not on. You asked for their arguement, I gave it to you. I will not argue it for them

[aggie03]

Really, so everyone at Pentacost had hands laid on them? Hrmmmm.....
The ones doing the signs and wonders were the Apostles only

Acts 2:43 ASV

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

All at pentacost spoke in tongues, and the message that signs and wonders will follow you was for all believers in my way of looking at it. What about Paul talking to the church in Corinth where he tells them how to practice the gifts of the Spirit?

[Grace_Alone4gives]

What about these instances?

Genesis 17
2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Numbers 22
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.


Ezekiel 1
28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD . When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.


Ezekiel 44
4 Then the man brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple. I looked and saw the glory of the LORD filling the temple of the LORD , and I fell facedown.


Acts 9
3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

In Biblical times to fall at someones feet was to show great respect. Falling when the Spirit of God comes over you is no different surely?In regards to being 'Slain in the Spirit"

What I have observed, being part of the Charasmatic movement in the past - is the people who are 'slain', flock to the pulpit or preacher to have hands laid on them, receive 'the spirit' and fall backwards with catchers .

However, in biblical times, when there was a 'falling down' it was ALWAYS face down, in a reverance. In addition, there were no catchers, it wasn't seeked, no line ups to receive a slaying - and no 'person' laid hands on someone to be 'slain' (man I hate that term). It was all God's doing - not mans.

I was once 'slain' I guess you can say - and I fell, and experienced an awesome sensation - even spoke in tounges....wonderful. However - experience alone is not proof enough for me, and I sometimes question it because it does not parallel biblical experiences.

There are far too many 'slayings' that I fear are not from God...and do not reflect the biblical references you posted. For instance, why are people administering the 'slaying'. Why do we not fall down facedown in the spirit? . Why are those being 'slain' on their backs? In the bible, Gods enemies fall bakwards, NOT God's people (John 18:6 and Isaiah 28:13). In addition, God did not require someone to administer the power for Him, laying hands upon His people, and most certainly didn't provide 'catchers' for when they fell. Also, not one of the experiences listed in the Bible have hysterical laughter etc.. accompanying the falling down. This is something to consider. KWIM?


I do believe in the gifts...all of them...but I also believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt - that they are abused, faked and made a mockery of, more than anything in todays charasmatic movement - especially the 'slaying' experiences. Not by all, but by many. This saddens me, and I am sure it saddens the heart of God also.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I do believe in the gifts...all of them...but I also believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt - that they are abused, faked and made a mockery of, more than anything in todays charasmatic movement - especially the 'slaying' experiences. Not by all, but by many. This saddens me, and I am sure it saddens the heart of God also.
Amen. Absolutely true.

[Svt4Him]

In regards to being 'Slain in the Spirit"

What I have observed, being part of the Charasmatic movement in the past - is the people who are 'slain', flock to the pulpit or preacher to have hands laid on them, receive 'the spirit' and fall backwards with catchers .

However, in biblical times, when there was a 'falling down' it was ALWAYS face down, in a reverance. In addition, there were no catchers, it wasn't seeked, no line ups to receive a slaying - and no 'person' laid hands on someone to be 'slain' (man I hate that term). It was all God's doing - not mans.

I was once 'slain' I guess you can say - and I fell, and experienced an awesome sensation - even spoke in tounges....wonderful. However - experience alone is not proof enough for me, and I sometimes question it because it does not parallel biblical experiences.

There are far too many 'slayings' that I fear are not from God...and do not reflect the biblical references you posted. For instance, why are people administering the 'slaying'. Why do we not fall down facedown in the spirit? . Why are those being 'slain' on their backs? In the bible, Gods enemies fall bakwards, NOT God's people (John 18:6 and Isaiah 28:13). In addition, God did not require someone to administer the power for Him, laying hands upon His people, and most certainly didn't provide 'catchers' for when they fell. Also, not one of the experiences listed in the Bible have hysterical laughter etc.. accompanying the falling down. This is something to consider. KWIM?


I do believe in the gifts...all of them...but I also believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt - that they are abused, faked and made a mockery of, more than anything in todays charasmatic movement - especially the 'slaying' experiences. Not by all, but by many. This saddens me, and I am sure it saddens the heart of God also.
Having listened to Hank Hanegraff as well, I have to say this has got to be a pretty silly way of determining if it's God or not. If you fall forward it's God, backwards it's the devil, sideways, well G-d and the devil are in a struggle.

Honestly I think it really makes no difference to God, as God usually looks at the character and the change that comes.

[aggie03]

All at pentacost spoke in tongues, and the message that signs and wonders will follow you was for all believers in my way of looking at it. What about Paul talking to the church in Corinth where he tells them how to practice the gifts of the Spirit?
There were other gifts eventually, but the only people that were speaking in tongues at Pentecost were the Apostles.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Having listened to Hank Hanegraff as well, I have to say this has got to be a pretty silly way of determining if it's God or not. If you fall forward it's God, backwards it's the devil, sideways, well G-d and the devil are in a struggle.

Honestly I think it really makes no difference to God, as God usually looks at the character and the change that comes.
Firstly - I am not quoting Mr. Hanegraff, but my own research and experience.

Secondly, I have experienced what one would call 'slain in the Spirit' - it is not like I do not know what I am talking about. I used to preach it!!!! However, if we let our 'experiences' and 'feelings' dictate our doctrin, we are in danger of being led astray. I have been in the past - I DO NOT want to go down that road again!

Thirdly, I was simply pointing out the biblical differences as to what is happening in today's Charasmatic movement - and what happened in biblical times. THEY DIFFER!

I am NOT against the workings of the Holy Spirit - I LOVE being filled completely with His presence. I desire God, worship him and adore him. But I will NOT make a mokery of Him! I believe it DOES make a difference to God.

For anyone interested in reading an article about 'Slain in the Spirit' please read this. I am not advocating the view 100%, but the writer makes EXCELLENT points and things to consider and pray over. If we are afraid to pray about such things, are we afraid to be corrected if need be? I would rather be corrected by a forgiving and all powerful God, then continue on a road of uncertainty.

[Svt4Him]

If this is not for me then forgive me, but:

Do not take me out of context. Do not associate me with a side I am not on. You asked for their arguement, I gave it to you. I will not argue it for them
Nope, don't recall asking, but:

Read the NT in Acts especially. You will see how some gifts were specifically passed by the laying of hands. Faith on the other hand is given without such prequisites. When you finish reading through, let me know if you still have questions.
Seems you were defending something. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

No, someone had a question on it. I was giving them what I knew about it since no one else was able to do so.

[ChrisB]

I do believe in the gifts...all of them...but I also believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt - that they are abused, faked and made a mockery of, more than anything in todays charasmatic movement - especially the 'slaying' experiences. Not by all, but by many. This saddens me, and I am sure it saddens the heart of God also.

Actually I agree with you here - mass "slayings" as and when required by the preacher always leave me a little uneasy. A genuine experience of this nature takes place at a time and place of God's choosing not man's. D L Moody for instance had a tremendous empowering of the Spirit whilst walking down Wall Street one day, not in the middle of a service.

[Svt4Him]

Actually I agree with you here - mass "slayings" as and when required by the preacher always leave me a little uneasy. A genuine experience of this nature takes place at a time and place of God's choosing not man's. D L Moody for instance had a tremendous empowering of the Spirit whilst walking down Wall Street one day, not in the middle of a service.
So we judge if it's God by where it happens?

[Athanasian Creed]

In regards to being 'Slain in the Spirit"

What I have observed, being part of the Charasmatic movement in the past - is the people who are 'slain', flock to the pulpit or preacher to have hands laid on them, receive 'the spirit' and fall backwards with catchers .

However, in biblical times, when there was a 'falling down' it was ALWAYS face down, in a reverance. In addition, there were no catchers, it wasn't seeked, no line ups to receive a slaying - and no 'person' laid hands on someone to be 'slain' (man I hate that term). It was all God's doing - not mans.

I was once 'slain' I guess you can say - and I fell, and experienced an awesome sensation - even spoke in tounges....wonderful. However - experience alone is not proof enough for me, and I sometimes question it because it does not parallel biblical experiences.

There are far too many 'slayings' that I fear are not from God...and do not reflect the biblical references you posted. For instance, why are people administering the 'slaying'. Why do we not fall down facedown in the spirit? . Why are those being 'slain' on their backs? In the bible, Gods enemies fall bakwards, NOT God's people (John 18:6 and Isaiah 28:13). In addition, God did not require someone to administer the power for Him, laying hands upon His people, and most certainly didn't provide 'catchers' for when they fell. Also, not one of the experiences listed in the Bible have hysterical laughter etc.. accompanying the falling down. This is something to consider. KWIM?


I do believe in the gifts...all of them...but I also believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt - that they are abused, faked and made a mockery of, more than anything in todays charasmatic movement - especially the 'slaying' experiences. Not by all, but by many. This saddens me, and I am sure it saddens the heart of God also.
Very well said HopeTheyDance :clap: :clap:

We have some in the Charismatic movement who are so after "signs and wonders" they follow after this one and that one hoping for more and more "experiences"

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Much of what passes as a "move of the Spirit" is only a so-called move of the "spirit" (i should know, i was once a Charismatic for over 20 years)

I don't believe, for instance, that God heals all. Some He does out of His Providence, to others "His grace is sufficient" and they bring much glory to Christ in the fact that they maintain and grow in their faith despite their sufferings. :bow:


Ray :wave:

[Grace_Alone4gives]

So we judge if it's God by where it happens?:sigh: You're missing th point!! We CAN and SHOULD decern, by HOW it happens, and if it parallels biblical experiences. For a group that preaches "The Bible Alone!!", and "Everything should be backed by scripture" (which I agree) they are not using scripture in this instance, or at least are not open to the possibility that what is happening in some churches is unbiblical. You are erasing my points, dismissing them, instead of actually praying about what I have mentioned - and the references I have posted.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Very well said HopeTheyDance :clap: :clap:

We have some in the Charismatic movement who are so after "signs and wonders" they follow after this one and that one hoping for more and more "experiences" Very gullible people, ones with "itching ears"

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Much of what passes as a "move of the Spirit" is only a so-called move of the "spirit" in my opinion (i should know, i was once a Charismatic for over 20 years)

I don't believe, for instance, that God heals all. Some He does out of His Providence, to others "His grace is sufficient" and they bring much glory to Christ in the fact that they maintain and grow in their faith despite their sufferings. :bow:


Ray :wave:
Thank You and Amen.

[Celestron]

The ones doing the signs and wonders were the Apostles only

Acts 2:43 ASV

And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
I think we come from the same background!


question: "if the signs and wonders were just coming from the apostles.. then how was paul miraculously healed by ananias... it doesn't say that ananias was an apostle."

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I know the apostles could give gifts. Maybe they gave him one? But gifts don't have to come from the apostles.

[Celestron]

I know the apostles could give gifts. Maybe they gave him one? But gifts don't have to come from the apostles.
I think i've heard somewhere.. "well, at some point, an apostle gave ananias the gift to perform miracles"..

you find that nowhere in scripture... that is only an assumption that someone has made and a faith is not meant to be based on assumptions.

[Svt4Him]

:sigh: You're missing th point!! We CAN and SHOULD decern, by HOW it happens, and if it parallels biblical experiences. For a group that preaches "The Bible Alone!!", and "Everything should be backed by scripture" (which I agree) they are not using scripture in this instance, or at least are not open to the possibility that what is happening in some churches is unbiblical. You are erasing my points, dismissing them, instead of actually praying about what I have mentioned - and the references I have posted.
No you can't. I drove my car and God spoke to me...Can this be true? Name one parallel Biblical experience to back this up. Seems to me it only happened in the Bible when people were walking, and some saw flashes of light, so obviously it's not of God.

As for praying about what you mentioned, you know very little about what I've done in this area, and assumption is the lowest form of knowledge.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

No you can't. I drove my car and God spoke to me...Can this be true? Name one parallel Biblical experience to back this up. Seems to me it only happened in the Bible when people were walking, and some saw flashes of light, so obviously it's not of God. God can speak to anyone everywhere, even through a bush..... that IS in the bible! But we are not talking about God speaking...we are talking about becoming 'slain in the spirit' and it's accountability with biblical scripture.

I believe it to happen, being 'slain' that is - but I also believe the majority of 'slayings' in the movement today to be not of God, but of a yearning for a sensational experience. The accounts found in todays church do not match up with biblical experiences and accounts. The reason why I brought this up in the first place was because you chose to post scripture supporting todays 'slayings' (again, hate that term), but the scripture did not support it - infact it contradicted it - which I have proven.

If you can prove to me that falling on your back, while howling, having holy laughter, barking, jittering, and experiencing convulsions in group settings, administered by preachers, by laying on of hands etc... were manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Bible - I will agree 100% that they could be true manifestations today. Until then, even though I HAVE experienced it, I will question it.

As for praying about what you mentioned, you know very little about what I've done in this area, and assumption is the lowest form of knowledge.You're right, I was assuming...I apologize.:doh:

[Celestron]

I agree that a lot of falsehood goes on... 'tongues and slayings'.

i believe when it says, 'they fell facedown'.. it means that they deliberately did this in a fear and respect response.

as far as tongues go.. i have negated much of what i do. however, there was this one time where i was speaking and my mind became filled with knowledge of different words and i spoke... now i don't believe i was speaking in a known language, but i believe God was showing me the way the thing worked back then... 'their minds at pentecost must have been filled as well as their bodies..with words that were truly words from another language.' i think most of what we do is jibberish. (don't get offended here). however, this is an assumption based on me, not of what God could be doing or can do. anytime you negate the lord, he can prove himself otherwise in an individual who is open and willing to display his power.

i've gained much ground scripturally and spiritually (in some ways)...over others in my congregation by being open to spiritual things that many disbelieve.

[Svt4Him]

God can speak to anyone everywhere, even through a bush..... that IS in the bible! But we are not talking about God speaking...we are talking about becoming 'slain in the spirit' and it's accountability with biblical scripture.
No, what I'm talking about is judging an experience based on what God did in the past. If you use the same logic that God has to make someone fall over forward to prove it's God, then you cannot also say God speaks in cars. God used a bush in the Bible, so if I hear God in my car, it's different. God spoke to people walking, never in a car or cart. I could also say that the one time someone was in a cart, they had to stop in order to understand what was being read, so if you don't stop, it's not God. But we expect God to speak to us everywhere, but now you are going out of the guidelines set out in the 'God makes you fall forward, the devil makes you fall back' theology. I can give countless examples of when God did stuff that we wouldn't think was Him, but if I change the setting a bit, it fits our paradigm of how God should act in our minds.


I believe it to happen, being 'slain' that is - but I also believe the majority of 'slayings' in the movement today to be not of God, but of a yearning for a sensational experience. The accounts found in todays church do not match up with biblical experiences and accounts. The reason why I brought this up in the first place was because you chose to post scripture supporting todays 'slayings' (again, hate that term), but the scripture did not support it - infact it contradicted it - which I have proven.
You've only proven it to those who don't want to believe it. You have made dogmas out of stories that weren't there to show which way we do or do not fall. And if someone wants to experience God, then go for it. Every name for God came from an experience in the OT.

If you can prove to me that falling on your back, while howling, having holy laughter, barking, jittering, and experiencing convulsions in group settings, administered by preachers, by laying on of hands etc... were manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Bible - I will agree 100% that they could be true manifestations today. Until then, even though I HAVE experienced it, I will question it.

I have nothing to prove. I can tell my testimony that this laughter set me free from drugs, but honestly I don't care if you believe it or not. If you love Jesus, have turned from sin, then why on earth would I want to argue about something like this. I do say though to watch how you judge. Man looks on the outside, God looks at the heart. If you are given the gift of discerning of hearts, or discerning of character then I'd be amazed, but I've never met one who has.

[Echoes Peak]

I have finally come to the conclusion, that when it comes to speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Spirit that those are just things many of us will never understand. I have learned that as great and powerful as our God is, He does indeed use whatever means to get out attention. Not all of us will be blessed with the same gifts and not all of us will be blessed with certain gifts will be given it a certain way. He's too large, expansive, creative and undescribable for that. I mean this is the same God that took time to create every snowflake that falls to the earth..knowing full well, that each one is intrinicately different.That being said, none of us can truly know what God has done for others. None of us knows what its like to live another's life and have God deliver them in the way that he did for that person. So, I've pretty much accepted that if the charmastic gifts are your gifts, fine, be blessed in them. But to ask someone to prove or demonstrate what or how the Spirit did is a toughie. I can only say that I hope God continues to bless you in a way that keeps you on a path to following Him into glory.

[PatrickM]

Uh, Ananias and Sapphira are the only examples I find in the NT regarding "slain in (or by) the Spirit." Acts 5:1-11.

[Svt4Him]

And that's what I call being pedantic.

[PatrickM]

And that's what I call being pedantic.
And this contributes to the discussion . . . how?

Does not this scripture define "slain"?

[Grace_Alone4gives]

No, what I'm talking about is judging an experience based on what God did in the past. If you use the same logic that God has to make someone fall over forward to prove it's God, then you cannot also say God speaks in cars. God used a bush in the Bible, so if I hear God in my car, it's different. God spoke to people walking, never in a car or cart. I could also say that the one time someone was in a cart, they had to stop in order to understand what was being read, so if you don't stop, it's not God. But we expect God to speak to us everywhere, but now you are going out of the guidelines set out in the 'God makes you fall forward, the devil makes you fall back' theology.

No, I am not. I have NEVER said God CAN NOT do these things. I DID say we SHOULD consider the biblical accounts when testing what is happening in todays Charasmatic Movement in regards to 'slayings'. Please do not put words in my mouth. I DO questions what is happening, but have NOT stated that ALL are faking or making mockery...but I DO believe that many are because of the lack of biblical support AND my own experiences as someone involved in the Charasmatic Movement.



You've only proven it to those who don't want to believe it. You have made dogmas out of stories that weren't there to show which way we do or do not fall. And if someone wants to experience God, then go for it. Every name for God came from an experience in the OT.
You can experience God without falling at all...that is not my point. My point is that the bible scripture you supplied does not necessarily support what you claim it to be supporting - that is all.


I have nothing to prove. I can tell my testimony that this laughter set me free from drugs, but honestly I don't care if you believe it or not. I do belive it - I too have been set free. However, it was not my expereinces with being slain that set me free - but Jesus alone! Praise God he has helped us both.:clap:

If you love Jesus, have turned from sin, then why on earth would I want to argue about something like this. I do say though to watch how you judge. Man looks on the outside, God looks at the heart. If you are given the gift of discerning of hearts, or discerning of character then I'd be amazed, but I've never met one who has.I am not arguing, just stating what I believe,a nd what I have learned - which I am called to do. I am sure many hearts are in the right place - mine was when I was involved. However, in light of this - although we called not to judge, we ARE called to discern - and that is what I have been doing. I do take these issues to the Father (as I am sure you do also), and have discerned through Him, that many occurences in the movement today are not from God.

Blessings,
HTD

[Svt4Him]

And this contributes to the discussion . . . how?

Does not this scripture define "slain"?Because this is an example of being pedantic.

You can experience God without falling at all...that is not my point. My point is that the bible scripture you supplies does not necessarily support what you claim it to be supporting - that is all.
Could you provide me with the Biblical Scriptures I used? I may have missed something, as I am not trying to show it is or isn't God. I'm trying to show that God cares more about what goes on on the inside.

ARE called to discern
Can you give me the ref. to this please. Now I know we are called to discern truth, I agree with that. But in relation to this topic.

[PatrickM]

Because this is an example of being pedantic.
Repeating the name calling doesn't answer my question. I thought the subject was "slain in the spirit", not pedantry.
Could you provide me with the Biblical Scriptures I used? I may have missed something, as I am not trying to show it is or isn't God. I'm trying to show that God cares more about what goes on on the inside.
I believe an answer was given previously, in that your examples in the OT were of a person's voluntarily bowing in God's presence.

The common practice today is one of involuntarily being knocked down by the "presence of the spirit."
Can you give me the ref. to this please. Now I know we are called to discern truth, I agree with that. But in relation to this topic.
This topic is definitely not "life issue." However, it does have a way of turning away some of those we would see receive Christ. In that, the truth of such actions is worth examination.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Could you provide me with the Biblical Scriptures I used? I may have missed something, as I am not trying to show it is or isn't God. I'm trying to show that God cares more about what goes on on the inside.Your references of OT scripture was used earlier to prove, from what I gather, that there is biblical reference to being slain in the spirit as it was in response to someone who leaned towards 'slyings' to be unbiblical.
I for one, believe that one can be so overcome and filled that they can, fall down in worship and reverence etc... however, my point was, and still is, that many 'manifestation' of becoming slain or filled today,differ from what happened in biblical times - thus, we need to consider such things, and not pass every occurence in todays Charasmatic Movement to be valid and of God.


Can you give me the ref. to this please. Now I know we are called to discern truth, I agree with that. But in relation to this topic.You want scripture supporting my view that we are called to use our discernment? (which is what I mean by discerning 'manifestations' of being 'slain') If that is what you want - okay then...here is one:

1 Thessalonians 5

Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything.

Testing what occurs when someone is 'slain' is approved by God, I believe. Many are lead astray by experience alone . Look at the LDS church...ask a Mormon how they know the BOM to be true - and they will tell you they prayed about it and was overcome with a wonderful sensation, a burning within them that left a sensation throughout their body. They believe this to be the Holy Spirit confirming that the BOM is the word of God...yet, is it? NO!

Just a small example of how experience can overule what is biblical and truly of God. Again, I am not saying that God can not slay someone in His SPirit. Of course He can...but that does not mean we accept everything we see because people claim it to be from God. Remember, I HAVE experienced this...it was wonderful. But, doesn't mean I am sold on it.

Yes, God looks at the change in ones heart. I am sure there is a change in the Mormons heart after such an 'experience'....however, does a change mean that they are on the right track...absolutely not.

Anyway - I am getting off topic. sorry. But I trust you see my point??

[Svt4Him]

Your references of OT scripture was used earlier to prove, from what I gather, that there is biblical reference to being slain in the spirit as it was in response to someone who leaned towards 'slyings' to be unbiblical.
I for one, believe that one can be so overcome and filled that they can, fall down in worship and reverence etc... however, my point was, and still is, that many 'manifestation' of becoming slain or filled today,differ from what happened in biblical times - thus, we need to consider such things, and not pass every occurence in todays Charasmatic Movement to be valid and of God.Then you missed my point, apart from the fact that you may have been putting words in my mouth. I am saying that there are things used to show what is not God and they are not valid. When the guards came to take Jesus, it says they moved back and fell down.

"Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground"

My whole point is not to judge by how people fall. This is in response to:

.

There are far too many 'slayings' that I fear are not from God...and do not reflect the biblical references you posted. For instance, why are people administering the 'slaying'. Why do we not fall down facedown in the spirit? . Why are those being 'slain' on their backs? In the bible, Gods enemies fall bakwards, NOT God's people (John 18:6 and Isaiah 28:13).
You want scripture supporting my view that we are called to use our discernment? (which is what I mean by discerning 'manifestations' of being 'slain') If that is what you want - okay then...here is one:

1 Thessalonians 5

Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything.

19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise prophecies. 21Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.


Testing what occurs when someone is 'slain' is approved by God, I believe. Many are lead astray by experience alone . Look at the LDS church...ask a Mormon how they know the BOM to be true - and they will tell you they prayed about it and was overcome with a wonderful sensation, a burning within them that left a sensation throughout their body. They believe this to be the Holy Spirit confirming that the BOM is the word of God...yet, is it? NO!We can't use an experience to overrule the Bible, I agree. But I fail to see how they are the same.

Just a small example of how experience can overule what is biblical and truly of God. Again, I am not saying that God can not slay someone in His SPirit. Of course He can...but that does not mean we accept everything we see because people claim it to be from God. Remember, I HAVE experienced this...it was wonderful. But, doesn't mean I am sold on it.

Yes, God looks at the change in ones heart. I am sure there is a change in the Mormons heart after such an 'experience'....however, does a change mean that they are on the right track...absolutely not.
These are not the same. We judge all experience by the Bible, but my whole point is against those who say it's not of God, and they have the gift of discerning of people. I don't need a gift of discerning to know if someone is told to murder their child that it's not of God. I don't need to discern if it's God telling me to cheat on my wife. I don't even need to pray about it. The BofM falls into this category. "God has already given us His revealed will regarding such matters, and therefore no amount of prayer is going to change that fact. No matter how sincere a person may believe otherwise, anyone who claims God gave him permission to murder, steal, or commit adultery only proves to the one familiar with the Bible that this man did not hear from God."

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Then you missed my point, apart from the fact that you may have been putting words in my mouth. I am saying that there are things used to show what is not God and they are not valid. When the guards came to take Jesus, it says they moved back and fell down.
You posted the scripture prior to me saying anything at all....My first post on this thread was after you posted scripture.

19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise prophecies. 21Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
And???? Did I not already post this? Me saying that many 'slayings' may not be from God does not quench the Spirit - if that is what you are implying,...it invited discernment.
These are not the same. We judge all experience by the Bible, but my whole point is against those who say it's not of God, No one said it definately IS NOT from God - not me anyway. I am simply saying I questions a lot of it.
and they have the gift of discerning of people.Also, are you discerning that I have no discernment??? Wouldn't that be calling the kettle black!



We can't use an experience to overrule the Bible, I agree. But I fail to see how they are the same.
How so???

The BofM falls into this category. A Morman would argue that. Which is my point!

No matter how sincere a person may believe otherwise, anyone who claims God gave him permission to murder, steal, or commit adultery only proves to the one familiar with the Bible that this man did not hear from God."And how does this relate to anything I have posted?

[Svt4Him]

Also, are you discerning that I have no discernment??? Wouldn't that be calling the kettle black!
I'll address this then leave the rest. There is no gift of discernment of people. I didn't say you have no discernment, you very much may. But there is no gift of discerning of hearts. God says men don't know the heart, only God does. But when you post "that be calling the kettle black" then it's starting to be a character attack, and I'll withdraw because of it. See, if you believe I'm attacking your character, and I believe you're attacking mine, then if we post, no matter what our intentions are, the worst will be assumed. Honestly I'd rather not.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I'll address this then leave the rest. There is no gift of discernment of people. I didn't say you have no discernment, you very much may. But there is no gift of discerning of hearts. God says men don't know the heart, only God does. But when you post "that be calling the kettle black" then it's starting to be a character attack, and I'll withdraw because of it. See, if you believe I'm attacking your character, and I believe you're attacking mine, then if we post, no matter what our intentions are, the worst will be assumed. Honestly I'd rather not.
I apologize - it honestly was not an attack but a mark of humor on your comment refering to discernment, with a little bit of attitude I admit- that is all. You can't read tone in a post - which I regret, as you would have seen my humor behind it. Sorry if it offended you, I was outa place for posting it if it did. I was not trying to attack your character - but turning your quote around...perhaps not in a tactful way.

Anyways - regarding discernment - i am in complete agreement surrounding not being able to discern someones heart or intent. I did not mention discerning the poeple involved with being slain in the Spirit - I would have to discern myself if that were the case. However, I was refering to the actual slaying. If my spirit is troubled by what I see and excperience and witness...I need to use my discernment to answer the following question, "Am I uncomfortable because of my flesh being uncomfortable, or is it the Spirit of God in me convicting me that what I am witnessing is not from God"...If I discern it is the HS within me, I further go to the bible to discern through scripture and prayer. Perhaps now I am making myself clear? Hope So.

[LynneClomina]

There were other gifts eventually, but the only people that were speaking in tongues at Pentecost were the Apostles.
if one reads from Acts 1:15 through to pentecost, it would seem that "they" who were in the upper room was the 120 disciples, not just the 12 apostles.

15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said, 16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the R38 price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, `LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and, `LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE .' 21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. 1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

i put acts 1 and 2 together, because the original scriptures had no paragraphs.

[LynneClomina]

John 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,"

this was falling under the POWER of God, whether they had faith or not. it was being OVERWHELMED by His presence. it was not a voluntary prostration, as they showed no understanding of who He was after that, becuase they continued to ask who He was.

the point i am trying to make is that we can FALL under the POWER of God.

[|)|\|)|\]

Jim McLamore as well as mistakes such as the "Herb the Nerd" campaign, rated by as the worst campaign of 1985.




Annotation c. by Book News, Inc., Portland, Orwas a man of great integrity. He cared deeply about people and was a great motivator. He also believed it's critical to give back to your community. To me, that makes him a true leader and a great American. -- Founder and Senior Chairman, Wendy's International
— Dave Thomas

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Jim McLamore as well as mistakes such as the "Herb the Nerd" campaign, rated by as the worst campaign of 1985.




Annotation c. by Book News, Inc., Portland, Orwas a man of great integrity. He cared deeply about people and was a great motivator. He also believed it's critical to give back to your community. To me, that makes him a true leader and a great American. -- Founder and Senior Chairman, Wendy's International
— Dave Thomas:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[PatrickM]

John 18:4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,"

this was falling under the POWER of God, whether they had faith or not. it was being OVERWHELMED by His presence. it was not a voluntary prostration, as they showed no understanding of who He was after that, becuase they continued to ask who He was.

the point i am trying to make is that we can FALL under the POWER of God.
Do you think it's pertinent that none of the disciples fell when Jesus said "I AM"?

Could this, combined with the fact that those who did fall were all unbelievers, and were there with pretty bad motives, mean something?

Are there any examples, in the NT of believers falling in the same way?

[Knight]

I guess I'll add my $0.10.....

If you want to believe in the charismatic gifts then go right ahead. Just a couple of guidelines:

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

Don't use things like tongues as a litmus test for salvation...

[Svt4Him]

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.


Wow, way to take something out of context. And when you are in Church and want to pray, make sure you leave the service and go into your prayer closet. (Matthew 6) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Do you think it's pertinent that none of the disciples fell when Jesus said "I AM"?

Could this, combined with the fact that those who did fall were all unbelievers, and were there with pretty bad motives, mean something?

Are there any examples, in the NT of believers falling in the same way?
hmm....interesting.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Don't use things like tongues as a litmus test for salvation...
:D I like the way you phrased that...lol.

[Grace_Alone4gives]

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.


Wow, way to take something out of context. And when you are in Church and want to pray, make sure you leave the service and go into your prayer closet. (Matthew 6) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.:sigh:

[Svt4Him]

Don't use things like tongues as a litmus test for salvation...And I agree with this 100%.

:sigh:
:scratch:

[Grace_Alone4gives]

:scratch:
Sorry, I thought you were taking a shot at Knight...and well - I got protective.:sorry:

[PatrickM]

:sorry:

[PatrickM]

I guess I'll add my $0.10.....

If you want to believe in the charismatic gifts then go right ahead. Just a couple of guidelines:

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
Agreed. As long as we don't forbid the speaking in tongues (1Cor14:39), eh? ;)
Don't use things like tongues as a litmus test for salvation...
Absolutely!! Nor, IMHO, for the evidence of being filled of the Holy Spirit, eh?

[Athanasian Creed]

I guess I'll add my $0.10.....

If you want to believe in the charismatic gifts then go right ahead. Just a couple of guidelines:

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

Don't use things like tongues as a litmus test for salvation...

Unfortunately, there are those within the Pentecostal persuation, not only orthodox but also among those deemed heretical (due to not acknowledging the Nicene Creed) who DO use tongues as a test of salvation....forgetting all the while that Satan can and does counterfeit tongues. ;)

Of course we who follow God's Word realize the true test of one's salvation is a changed life ..

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

and accompaning fruit/works of righteousness that come from one who has experience true saving faith ...

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-10 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.;)


Ray :wave:

[Svt4Him]

Sorry, I thought you were taking a shot at Knight...and well - I got protective.:sorry:
Just a shot at the out of context ref to tongues in church. But then you'd have to see the verse posted, and the verse I used, and see why they are both out of context. :priest: (this little smiley really doesn't add anything to my post, I just like it.)

[Light Keeper]

Hello everyone,
As a student of church history may I put the record straight, the spiritual gifts are found through out church history. These gifts have never left us, it is the fact that it is mankind that has neglected these blessings.
Instead of arguing they are for now or are no longer valid, may I humbly suggest that we seek them, as our fore fathers did. Does not the Word of God give us the promise that if we seek we will find? SHALOM Lightkeeper

[Asar'el]

Hello everyone,
As a student of church history may I put the record straight, the spiritual gifts are found through out church history. These gifts have never left us, it is the fact that it is mankind that has neglected these blessings.
Instead of arguing they are for now or are no longer valid, may I humbly suggest that we seek them, as our fore fathers did. Does not the Word of God give us the promise that if we seek we will find? SHALOM Lightkeeper
Well, now, either you're speaking in general of gifts, not related especially to this thread, or you're saying noone else has studied church history and therefore has their record wrong, when they say some of the gifts mentioned were temporary.

As a student of church history also, let me set the record straight too: we receive gifts from God every moment of every day (breath, for one, if we can write or read here! :) ) - but don't forget we can also ask and receive not, if we ask amiss.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Like others before me (numerous throughout the history of the church!) I believe that which is spoken of in those passages has come to pass; that which is perfect is come, and is the whole Scripture. I do not believe that which is called 'tongues' today is the biblical account in Acts, of the speaking with other tongues, which were all existant languages. Before someone tries to convince me that the gibberish (sorry, not meaning insult, but there is no other word that fits) they call tongues is the language of angels (as some try to explain it) ... explain why noone today seems to speak with any OTHER natural language (like they did in scripture). If someone in church should stand up and declare the gospel in my native tongue, that had not spoken it before, I would be willing to concede the gift of tongues would be at work.

[Svt4Him]

I believe that which is spoken of in those passages has come to pass
So knowledge has vanished away? Although this would explain a lot of things...

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Ahh the old canon of scripture argument. So that means the gifts passed away around A.D. 367 right? And if the canon of scripture is perfect then why don't you have all the books that were canonized in that time in your Bible today? Or did the gifts pass away when Luther tossed out some of the books? Or when other councils tossed out some of the books? Which canon is perfect? Did the gifts pass away when the KJV was first released in 1611?

[Asar'el]

Ahh the old canon of scripture argument. So that means the gifts passed away around A.D. 367 right? And if the canon of scripture is perfect then why don't you have all the books that were canonized in that time in your Bible today? Or did the gifts pass away when Luther tossed out some of the books? Or when other councils tossed out some of the books? Which canon is perfect? Did the gifts pass away when the KJV was first released in 1611?
Your .. confusion (or is it condescension?) is amusing. The gifts were given for the establishment of the early church, and I believe they had passed even before all the books of scripture were complete.
As to when that was, scripture was complete when God had moved the last of the holy men to speak, as it declares it. What man has added to, or subsequently removed from, has more to do with the warning in Revelation, and not with the subject at hand - viz. that these gifts have passed away, as was told.
Why do you place it in the hands of man, anyway ? You think a council (or a man) declaring it makes it so? Luther modified scripture, in your opinion? Or removed that which did not belong there in the first place? This being God's word, you look at man to determine when it was made complete?

In any case, you've not said anything about the text quoted, or whether you agree with it or no - only arguing about the when; if you agree the meaning of the text, it only matters when if you want to say it is STILL not complete; and if that is the case, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it (perhaps in a separate thread!); otherwise, it's kind of moot, is it not? If it is complete, then the gifts are passed.

[Asar'el]

So knowledge has vanished away? Although this would explain a lot of things...
That gift, aye, I believe so. And sometimes looking at the world, it's almost easy to think that ALL knowledge vanished... Sad, but true.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Your .. confusion (or is it condescension?) is amusing. The gifts were given for the establishment of the early church, and I believe they had passed even before all the books of scripture were complete.
As to when that was, scripture was complete when God had moved the last of the holy men to speak, as it declares it. What man has added to, or subsequently removed from, has more to do with the warning in Revelation, and not with the subject at hand - viz. that these gifts have passed away, as was told.
Why do you place it in the hands of man, anyway ? You think a council (or a man) declaring it makes it so? Luther modified scripture, in your opinion? Or removed that which did not belong there in the first place? This being God's word, you look at man to determine when it was made complete?

In any case, you've not said anything about the text quoted, or whether you agree with it or no - only arguing about the when; if you agree the meaning of the text, it only matters when if you want to say it is STILL not complete; and if that is the case, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it (perhaps in a separate thread!); otherwise, it's kind of moot, is it not? If it is complete, then the gifts are passed.

I do not think that "that which is perfect" refers to the canon of scripture. The verse you cite in Rev only refers to Rev as Rev was completed long before some of the other books in the New Testament that we accept as inspired. If you need dates I will provide them but considering it was completed even before Paul's letters then it cannot refer to the whole canon. If the books were arragned by date it would be a much different Bible. The canon of scripture is complete but your evidence to it being "that which is perfect" is lacking compeltely. If the perfect has come then why don't we have it in our hands today. Please explain which version of the Bible is perfect and what all is inspired because if we have that which is perfect then we darn sure should know it. This is actually the weakest argument for the gifts having passed and doesn't hold water under any scrutiny that involves any dating of manuscripts at all because it relies on the verse in Rev which can be easily proven not to refer to the whole of scripture both by the time of writing and studying the Greek. I do believe the canon is complete, but it is the perfect that is refered to in 1 Cor.

[Knight]

If you speak in tongues then have an interpreter. (1 Cor 14) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.


Wow, way to take something out of context. And when you are in Church and want to pray, make sure you leave the service and go into your prayer closet. (Matthew 6) Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
What is out of context???????

Paul clearly outlines the reason for having an interpreter when speaking in a tongue. So that you may be understood and be edifying to the body.

I'm not condemning anything.

[Knight]

Sorry, I thought you were taking a shot at Knight...and well - I got protective.:sorry:
Gee, thanks.... I'm touched. :P :)

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Gee, thanks.... I'm touched. :P :)Your welcome.
We may not agree on all thigs, but we both seem to have a level head concerning most subjects - and have held hands a few times around the discussion table. LOL

[Asar'el]

I do not think that "that which is perfect" refers to the canon of scripture. The verse you cite in Rev only refers to Rev as Rev was completed long before some of the other books in the New Testament that we accept as inspired. If you need dates I will provide them but considering it was completed even before Paul's letters then it cannot refer to the whole canon. If the books were arragned by date it would be a much different Bible.
I'm curious where you get your dates from? Not that I suggested the scripture was made complete with the book of Revelation, only that the adding to (or removal from) the scripture was more to do with that warning. Do you seriously mean to suggest that the warning about adding to, or taking from, refers only to the book of Revelation??

The canon of scripture is complete but your evidence to it being "that which is perfect" is lacking compeltely.
I was not aware that it required any further evidence that the Holy Scripture is "that which is perfect" - yet here you say it is lacking completely. You have a different thought as to what 'that which is perfect' means?

If the perfect has come then why don't we have it in our hands today.
Why don't we have it in our hands today, you say? I do have it. Why don't you?

Please explain which version of the Bible is perfect and what all is inspired because if we have that which is perfect then we darn sure should know it.
In English, the King James version. In other languages, different ones. I sure know it. Many sure know it. Don't you?

This is actually the weakest argument for the gifts having passed and doesn't hold water under any scrutiny that involves any dating of manuscripts at all because it relies on the verse in Rev which can be easily proven not to refer to the whole of scripture both by the time of writing and studying the Greek. I do believe the canon is complete, but it is the perfect that is refered to in 1 Cor.
One has nothing to do with the other. And the way you put that last statement makes me think it was not what you intended, for it reads like an agreement to my post - funny how that came about!

You might wish to look a bit closer at dates and dating, lest you be caught in the wisdom of men; much is yet in question, for very few dates have been recorded for us - yet you seem so certain about the dates you (I assume, from the teaching of others) assign to the various books.

The dating of manuscripts seems a moot point if you agree the Scripture is complete. How can this be the weakest argument under scrutiny involving dating of manuscripts, when the dates are not relevant? your argument about dates seems ... unrelated.

[PatrickM]

As a student of church history also, let me set the record straight too: we receive gifts from God every moment of every day (breath, for one, if we can write or read here! :) ) - but don't forget we can also ask and receive not, if we ask amiss.
I think you know what the poster meant, specifically, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, none of which mention breathing, etc.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Like others before me (numerous throughout the history of the church!) I believe that which is spoken of in those passages has come to pass; that which is perfect is come, and is the whole Scripture.
First, there are many throughout church history, who wrote about the gifts being in existence centuries after the apostolic age, i.e. Eusebius.

Additionally, you left out the end of the context of the "that which is perfect" portion of 1Cor13, verse 12, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then (by the context the "then" is when that which is perfect is come) I shall know just as I also am known."

I doubt any of us know today even as God knows us. This is evidently when we come into the presence of God, as only then will we "know even as we are known."
I do not believe that which is called 'tongues' today is the biblical account in Acts, of the speaking with other tongues, which were all existant languages. Before someone tries to convince me that the gibberish (sorry, not meaning insult, but there is no other word that fits) they call tongues is the language of angels (as some try to explain it) ... explain why noone today seems to speak with any OTHER natural language (like they did in scripture). If someone in church should stand up and declare the gospel in my native tongue, that had not spoken it before, I would be willing to concede the gift of tongues would be at work.
If the gift of tongues was only natural languages, Paul must have been mistaken when he referred to speaking with them as not speaking to men but to God;

1Cor14:2, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries" (emphasis added).

[Asar'el]

I think you know what the poster meant, specifically, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, none of which mention breathing, etc.
You'll note there were to passages in answer to that; the first part addressing the implication that anyone that did not agree with him must not be a student of history, or that he somehow represents all students of church history; the second part, which you quote, was in answer to his implication that all we need do is ask - my point being we must not ask amiss.

First, there are many throughout church history, who wrote about the gifts being in existence centuries after the apostolic age, i.e. Eusebius.
You will note I only said there were also those that agreed with the view that some gifts have ceased. I did not say, nor meant to imply, that everyone was of that opinion.

Additionally, you left out the end of the context of the "that which is perfect" portion of 1Cor13, verse 12, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then (by the context the "then" is when that which is perfect is come) I shall know just as I also am known."

I doubt any of us know today even as God knows us. This is evidently when we come into the presence of God, as only then will we "know even as we are known."
Actually, no, I did not leave out the end of the context; you have left out the text in between; and you also acknowledge two separate things: one 'then' is, the coming of that which is perfect; the other, 'then' being when we come into the presence of God. Are you suggesting these two are one?
That prophecy shall cease when we come in the presence of the Lord? That now we can speak in an (unknown) language to God, but when we come into the presence of God that shall cease?

If the gift of tongues was only natural languages, Paul must have been mistaken when he referred to speaking with them as not speaking to men but to God;

1Cor14:2, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries" (emphasis added).
Slightly different text my KJV has:

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No, I don't believe Paul was mistaken; but perhaps you might be in deciding what he meant. I see no difficulty in that text, nor an implication that the tongue is unknowable; to wit, should someone in church start speaking my native tongue when I was not there, who would understand it? Would it not be an unknown tongue? The speaker himself does not understand it; in such a case, he would speak unto God; and indeed in spirit he would be speaking mystery.

When, in Acts, they spoke with other tongues, is there any indication that the ones that spoke understood the language they were speaking? What we may know with certainty is what it declares: those (natural) languages the men present understood:

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And yet...

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

These may well have been the ones that understood not. An unknown tongue, then, is another natural language, which no man present understands. At that time, in Acts, of those that spoke we are told only of those languages understood - not if there were any more that no man present did understand...

Again I say - the context of Scripture is the entire Scripture; apart from man's desire, show me an example in Scripture where someone spoke in tongues, and no one understood; or show, if you would (and so believe), where we might learn that the language of angels is not understood by men, as others suggest.

[PatrickM]

You will note I only said there were also those that agreed with the view that some gifts have ceased. I did not say, nor meant to imply, that everyone was of that opinion.
And neither did the original poster say that all, historically, believed they did.
Actually, no, I did not leave out the end of the context; you have left out the text in between; and you also acknowledge two separate things: one 'then' is, the coming of that which is perfect; the other, 'then' being when we come into the presence of God. Are you suggesting these two are one?
That prophecy shall cease when we come in the presence of the Lord? That now we can speak in an (unknown) language to God, but when we come into the presence of God that shall cease?

Well, for brevity, I left out the text in between, but it does not diminish the point.

As a matter of fact, the "childish things" verse only proves my point. While on earth, we see things "as a child", but when we come face to face with God, we will not be such, we will see all things as they are.

And you did not answer whether you think if the "perfect" is canon, then knowledge has ceased?

Additionally, yes, prophecy, God speaking through man, will not be needed anymore, as we will be in God's presence. We will no longer need a "middle-man". Also, indeed, yes, tongues will cease when we come into His presence. We will not need a heavenly language to communicate with God, as we will, again, be face to face with Him.
Slightly different text my KJV has:

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No, I don't believe Paul was mistaken; but perhaps you might be in deciding what he meant. I see no difficulty in that text, nor an implication that the tongue is unknowable; to wit, should someone in church start speaking my native tongue when I was not there, who would understand it? Would it not be an unknown tongue? The speaker himself does not understand it; in such a case, he would speak unto God; and indeed in spirit he would be speaking mystery.
You read more into the text than is there. Paul, in the first two verses, is not being specific about "in the church". Notice his words are general, and universal.

vs 2, "For he who speaks in a tongue (not specifically where) does not speak to men (again, generally, not specifically in church, per se), but to God. For no one (not "no one in the church", but no one) understands him, however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

It is a stretch to presume he means "if there is no one in the church who specifically speaks this particular language, therefore, it is theoretically a mystery. The plain language of the text says he speaks mysteries, period.
When, in Acts, they spoke with other tongues, is there any indication that the ones that spoke understood the language they were speaking? What we may know with certainty is what it declares: those (natural) languages the men present understood:

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And yet...

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

These may well have been the ones that understood not. An unknown tongue, then, is another natural language, which no man present understands. At that time, in Acts, of those that spoke we are told only of those languages understood - not if there were any more that no man present did understand...
I do not disagree here. But why would there be the need for a special Gift of Interpretation, if all was needed was to get someone who actually spoke that language? The gift of interpretation seems redundant, unless there were two kinds of tongues.
Again I say - the context of Scripture is the entire Scripture; apart from man's desire, show me an example in Scripture where someone spoke in tongues, and no one understood; or show, if you would (and so believe), where we might learn that the language of angels is not understood by men, as others suggest.
I agree totally. Thus, all the instances in Acts (8, 10, 19) comprise the entire context of Scripture, not merely pulling one example to prove your point.

If you read carefully the "no one understands" verse, and not read into what is not there, you may come to a different conclusion.

[Asar'el]

And neither did the original poster say that all, historically, believed they did.
Well.. what the poster I replied to said is:

Hello everyone,
As a student of church history may I put the record straight,
Tell me how I might see this other than 'You that disagree with me are either not students of history, or you have your record wrong; and I will set you straight'

Well, for brevity, I left out the text in between, but it does not diminish the point.

As a matter of fact, the "childish things" verse only proves my point. While on earth, we see things "as a child", but when we come face to face with God, we will not be such, we will see all things as they are.
As a matter of fact, that verse can well be seen to separate the two; one speaks of that which is perfect is come and the other, as you agree, is when we come into the presence of the Lord. And you have not answered if you believe those two things to be the same :)

And you did not answer whether you think if the "perfect" is canon, then knowledge has ceased?
I must have missed the question in your post; I have, however, answered this question from Svt4Him.

Additionally, yes, prophecy, God speaking through man, will not be needed anymore, as we will be in God's presence. We will no longer need a "middle-man". Also, indeed, yes, tongues will cease when we come into His presence. We will not need a heavenly language to communicate with God, as we will, again, be face to face with Him.
You are saying that a language we use today that only God understands will cease when we come face to face with God? If so, please explain your reasoning behind such an unusual occurrence...

You read more into the text than is there. Paul, in the first two verses, is not being specific about "in the church". Notice his words are general, and universal.

vs 2, "For he who speaks in a tongue (not specifically where) does not speak to men (again, generally, not specifically in church, per se), but to God. For no one (not "no one in the church", but no one) understands him, however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

It is a stretch to presume he means "if there is no one in the church who specifically speaks this particular language, therefore, it is theoretically a mystery. The plain language of the text says he speaks mysteries, period.
Actually, I am giving you an opinion as to what the words can mean by a straightforward reading; your interpretation of what they must mean is as much 'reading more into the text' as any. I did not say 'theoretically a mystery' - I said 'indeed a mystery'.

I do not disagree here. But why would there be the need for a special Gift of Interpretation, if all was needed was to get someone who actually spoke that language? The gift of interpretation seems redundant, unless there were two kinds of tongues.
You are speaking of two separate gifts as if they are related, when Paul himself called one greater than the other. It is the desire to justify the view of modern day ... what shall I call it, since I do not believe it is the gift of tongues? .. XXX ... that leads some to conclude, as you have, that the gift of interpretation seems redundant; or that one is related to another. There were, I believe, two separate gifts; one, the ability to speak another language; two, the ability to understand another language; both divine gifts from God, not the study of man.

I agree totally. Thus, all the instances in Acts (8, 10, 19) comprise the entire context of Scripture, not merely pulling one example to prove your point.

If you read carefully the "no one understands" verse, and not read into what is not there, you may come to a different conclusion.
Not at all; and if you continue further into 1Corinthians, you will also read Paul's following words:

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Clearly (imho) many tongues are mentioned; and clearly tongues of men; for a sign unto unbelievers; and it is far easier for me to see the words you say I added to Paul (where you say, not "no one in the church", but no one) reflected in this text, regarding those that are unlearned, or unbelievers.

Read further still and you will see interpretation mentioned:

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Look at the root of interpreter, and you will find diermhneuw:
1) to unfold the meaning of what is said, explain, expound
2) to translate into one's native language


Let's both read carefully, and pray God leads us to the right conclusion.

[TwistrAndy]

I would just like to go back and state my opinions on being "slain in the spirit" "dancing in the spirit" "laughing in the spirit".

I agree completely with these things. They too set my heart on fire for God.

One thing I think we are missing is that God doesn't just zap his finger and cause someone to fall down, or laugh, or dance. The Holy Ghost puts in the anointing in your spirit, and the joy, and the love, and when people laugh uncontrollably, and fall to the ground, and dance with all their might, it seems to me and from my experiences is that, that is the way your body reacts to the anointing, the joy, and the love that is there. I mean your spirit wouldn't dance, or fall to the floor, or dance around, but it is trapped in this flesh, and this flesh can't handle the glory of God, so it reacts the way it does because it can't handle the presence of God, without letting it out.

[Asar'el]

I would just like to go back and state my opinions on being "slain in the spirit" "dancing in the spirit" "laughing in the spirit".

I agree completely with these things. They too set my heart on fire for God.

One thing I think we are missing is that God doesn't just zap his finger and cause someone to fall down, or laugh, or dance. The Holy Ghost puts in the anointing in your spirit, and the joy, and the love, and when people laugh uncontrollably, and fall to the ground, and dance with all their might, it seems to me and from my experiences is that, that is the way your body reacts to the anointing, the joy, and the love that is there. I mean your spirit wouldn't dance, or fall to the floor, or dance around, but it is trapped in this flesh, and this flesh can't handle the glory of God, so it reacts the way it does because it can't handle the presence of God, without letting it out.
Your opinion and agreement with these things must also agree with the word of God for some (like myself) to accept as being from God. Can you show a biblical account of these things? Any texts that describe someone slain in the spirit? dancing in the spirit? laughing in the spirit? Or is your interpretation of these only your own?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Your opinion and agreement with these things must also agree with the word of God for some (like myself) to accept as being from God. Can you show a biblical account of these things? Any texts that describe someone slain in the spirit? dancing in the spirit? laughing in the spirit? Or is your interpretation of these only your own?

Strwaman argument. Can you show cars being used in the Bible? Can you show computers being used to minister in the scripture, modern book binding, or closed shoes even?

[GeorgiaPeach]

Strwamna argument. Can you show cars being used in the Bible? Can you show computers being used to minister in the scripture, modern book binding, or closed shoes even?
You have got to be kidding me! He is not saying that cars and computers are sent from God and are a important part of doctrine not to be questioned. This kind of reasoning is ridiculous.

Please answer the question clearly on where slain in the spirit etc. can be found in scripture. Is that so hard?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You have got to be kidding me! He is not saying that cars and computers are sent from God and are a important part of doctrine not to be questioned. This kind of reasoning is ridiculous.

Please answer the question clearly on where slain in the spirit etc. can be found in scripture. Is that so hard?

I can expound on my logic with scripture, and now I am not kidding, it is a strawman and easily torn down. Anything we use in our daily lives is a gift from God:


James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.


You would have to make an argument first off that being slain in the spirit is not good, and support that with scripture, which cannot be done, in order to show that it is not from God. By the same token if your car is used to take you to church then the same logic applies. If being slain in the spiri is used to further God's kingodm and His glory then by definition it is good so it has to be from God, according to scripture. I don't need to show it being mentioned in scripture., merely that it is not spoken against. There are many bands that glorify God through the use of electric guitars and keyboards and those are mentioned nowhere in scripture. We hole churc in buildings dedicated to that purpose and the NT church was held in homes, so we don't do that according to scripture. There are plenty of things we do that are not mentioned in scripture and yet we don't speak out against them.

Slain is in the spirit does not have to be mentioned in scripture to be of God, that is why it is a strawman argument.

[Svt4Him]

After this happened to me, and I had laughter while on the ground, I was set free from drugs. That is a good gift from God.

[GeorgiaPeach]

You would have to make an argument first off that being slain in the spirit is not good, and support that with scripture, which cannot be done, in order to show that it is not from God. . If being slain in the spiri is used to further God's kingodm and His glory then by definition it is good so it has to be from God, according to scripture. I don't need to show it being mentioned in scripture, merely that it is not spoken against. There are plenty of things we do that are not mentioned in scripture and yet we don't speak out against them.

Slain is in the spirit does not have to be mentioned in scripture to be of God, that is why it is a strawman argument.
You're asking others to accpet and participate in an action that is not mentioned, as far as I know of, in scripture. That in itself is scary. Something doesn't mean its good and from God simply because of feelings.

"It feels right and people are blessed so its from God!" If thats the case then lets all go get some Mary Jane and smoke up! Praise the Lord!!

Why are you so against providing substantial evidence in the Bible for what you believe?

I think you know the answer.

[Asar'el]

I can expound on my logic with scripture, and now I am not kidding, it is a strawman and easily torn down. Anything we use in our daily lives is a gift from God: Please do expound your logic with scripture.

You would have to make an argument first off that being slain in the spirit is not good, and support that with scripture, which cannot be done, in order to show that it is not from God. Actually, no. I do not have to make an argument to declare something is not good and support it with Scripture, if it is not in Scripture to begin with - and if you take a moment to think about that, you'll realize how ridiculous what you are asking for is...

By the same token if your car is used to take you to church then the same logic applies. Not the same token at all, unless you wish to claim my car is a supernatural working of God's spirit...

If being slain in the spiri is used to further God's kingodm and His glory then by definition it is good so it has to be from God, according to scripture. Err... your definition and logic - not correct. For example, the young damsel with a divination spirit that Paul commanded an unclean spirit out of was only declaring something true, and good... Satan can, and does, we are told, make himself appear as an angel of light; and false apostles make themselves seem to be apostles of Christ.

I don't need to show it being mentioned in scripture., merely that it is not spoken against. Wrong again; when you declare this is the working of the Holy Spirit of God, you must indeed support your claim - because you are, in essence, declaring another gospel, which we have not received. We are told to try the spirits, according to the gospel.

There are many bands that glorify God through the use of electric guitars and keyboards and those are mentioned nowhere in scripture. We hole churc in buildings dedicated to that purpose and the NT church was held in homes, so we don't do that according to scripture. There are plenty of things we do that are not mentioned in scripture and yet we don't speak out against them.

Slain is in the spirit does not have to be mentioned in scripture to be of God, that is why it is a strawman argument. You are painting with too broad a brush; you are suggesting the inventions of man (electricity, cars, etc) can be placed on the same level with the workings of the Holy Ghost. Who agrees with you? Who's strawman building here?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

You're asking others to accpet and participate in an action that is not mentioned, as far as I know of, in scripture. That in itself is scary. Something doesn't mean its good and from God simply because of feelings.


Altar calls are not mentioned in scripture, taking communion in the manner we do in church is not mentioned in scripture, our whole order of worship is not mentioned in scripture, funerals as we do them are not mentioned in scripture,


"It feels right and people are blessed so its from God!" If thats the case then lets all go get some Mary Jane and smoke up! Praise the Lord!!


As it is forbidden by law that is another strawman.


Why are you so against providing substantial evidence in the Bible for what you believe?

I think you know the answer.

I am not the one that needs to provide evidence, you show me where the Bible states that only things that happened in the Bible are from God. That is the assertion being made, and what I am asserting cannot be backed by scripture.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Please do expound your logic with scripture.
I did


Actually, no. I do not have to make an argument to declare something is not good and support it with Scripture, if it is not in Scripture to begin with - and if you take a moment to think about that, you'll realize how ridiculous what you are asking for is...


Actually my logic is perfectly sound. You cite on scripture where it states that only things mentioned in scripture are from God. There isn't one, it never says it. Yours is a strawman and cannot be supported with scripture.


Not the same token at all, unless you wish to claim my car is a supernatural working of God's spirit...


Not your car, not the physical car, but the idea for a vehicle was inspired and knowledge is a gift from God.


Err... your definition and logic - not correct. For example, the young damsel with a divination spirit that Paul commanded an unclean spirit out of was only declaring something true, and good... Satan can, and does, we are told, make himself appear as an angel of light; and false apostles make themselves seem to be apostles of Christ.


So who are you caklling a false apostle? Are you implying that being slain in the spirit is of Satan? There are many people whose wonderful testimonies of being delivered from chemical addiction, depression, and plethora other things start wiht being slain in the spirit.


Wrong again; when you declare this is the working of the Holy Spirit of God, you must indeed support your claim - because you are, in essence, declaring another gospel, which we have not received. We are told to try the spirits, according to the gospel.


The test is whether or not the spirit will proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord. Every single person I know who has been slain in the spirit will claim that, they will in fact proclaim it, and often do. The scriptural test is not whether or not it is mentioned in scripture but whether or not it is from God, not once does the Bible say that if it isn't mentioned that it's not from God. Your asking for scriptural backing is not scriptural to being with.


You are painting with too broad a brush; you are suggesting the inventions of man (electricity, cars, etc) can be placed on the same level with the workings of the Holy Ghost. Who agrees with you? Who's strawman building here?

I am saying the inspiration behind them was of God, not that the physical presence of them is. I am not building a strawman, I am showing how your argument is not based in scripture to begin with.

[Svt4Him]

Great post.

[Asar'el]

I did
Where? What?

Actually my logic is perfectly sound. You cite on scripture where it states that only things mentioned in scripture are from God. There isn't one, it never says it. Yours is a strawman and cannot be supported with scripture.
Now I have trouble following you. What exactly are you saying here? I cite what where ??

Not your car, not the physical car, but the idea for a vehicle was inspired and knowledge is a gift from God.
Let me see if I understand you: you are saying the idea for a vehicle was inspired, and therefore it is to be considered a spiritual gift, like speaking in tongues?

So who are you caklling a false apostle? Are you implying that being slain in the spirit is of Satan? There are many people whose wonderful testimonies of being delivered from chemical addiction, depression, and plethora other things start wiht being slain in the spirit.
Wonderful testimonies notwithstanding, I call a false apostle anyone that teaches something other than what is in Scripture. When Paul is speaking of them, I believe the text in 2 Corinthians 11:4,

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

well identifies them.

In Galatians 1:9, it is put thus:

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What do you take 'any other gospel' to mean? Being 'slain in the spirit' is part of the true gospel, even though it is not mentioned, is that it?

The test is whether or not the spirit will proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord. Every single person I know who has been slain in the spirit will claim that, they will in fact proclaim it, and often do. The scriptural test is not whether or not it is mentioned in scripture but whether or not it is from God, not once does the Bible say that if it isn't mentioned that it's not from God. Your asking for scriptural backing is not scriptural to being with.
I was mentioning that text to show we are not to just accept things; but that we have the means, in this case, to try the spirits; and you yourself here testify that the test we are to use is in Scripture. The text speaks of testing spirits, not men; surely you cannot believe this applies literally to man? You have not met one unbeliever that has no compunction about proclaiming Jesus Christ is Lord, just to prove such a text 'wrong' (in their opinion).

Now, follow along your train of thought: we are to test spirits, whether they be of God, and the test is given us in Scripture; but we are to accept man's testimony about things (such as being 'slain in the spirit') being of God, which are NOT in Scripture. You don't see a problem with this?

I am saying the inspiration behind them was of God, not that the physical presence of them is. I am not building a strawman, I am showing how your argument is not based in scripture to begin with.
I thought that's just what a strawman is: substituting a distorted version of someone's position. My argument is that the 'slaying in spirit' (and other like gifts) are offered as being the direct workings of the Holy Ghost. You are saying the inspiration behind cars, etc. is of God, and then asking me to defend from Scripture the use of them. What has one to do with the other?

What (part ?) of my argument are you saying is not based in scripture?

[premilldispensationalist]

How do fundies (if i'm allowed to say that) think on the gifts of the spirit? i've heard stuff for and against, is it pretty diverse between fundie denoms?

At a guess I would say most are cessationists however I am sure some will be charismatic.

Regards,
Richard Sherratt

[Asar'el]

At a guess I would say most are cessationists however I am sure some will be charismatic.

Regards,
Richard Sherratt
I'd say that was a good guess... :)

[premilldispensationalist]

I'd say that was a good guess... :)

:blush: