The 2008 Presidential Election

[Dorothea]

I hope the MODS don't mind, but I thought it would be best to just have one thread on this election cycle and the politics surrounding it. Just created it for all those following the races and are interested in discussing it. :wave:

[EmperorConstantine]

Why did Edwards have to go!?:sigh:

[Dorothea]

I don't know, EC. He was virtually ignored by the media, and I think that didn't help him. I know many Edwards supporters, and they were disappointed that he didn't get more attention, and frankly, do better.

It's really slim pickings this election cycle, imo.

[EmperorConstantine]

Well, to be honest heck will freeze before I vote Republican. Sadly, our state's Democratic caucus on Saturday, for me, came down to a coin toss between Clinton and Obama.


John McCain though, is the only Republican candidate I can tolerate. Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical, Romney is a Mormon and Ron Paul just has too many crazy ideas.
That and McCain is not as "die-hard conservative" as most Republicans.

We'll see how it turns out. Reminds me of when I was following Serbia's election the past few weeks.

[Dorothea]

I'm stuck in a quandry where I'm not sure I'll even vote because between McCain, Obama, and Hillary, I don't feel compelled to vote. I don't agree with Hill or Obama's stances on many social issues, or their big government plans, and McCain is a lesser version of them, but there are many stances of his I disagree with. So, I have months to mull this over, but I'm not sure my mind will be settled even by November.

[Khaleas]

Well, to be honest heck will freeze before I vote Republican. Sadly, our state's Democratic caucus on Saturday, for me, came down to a coin toss between Clinton and Obama.


John McCain though, is the only Republican candidate I can tolerate. Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical, Romney is a Mormon and Ron Paul just has too many crazy ideas.
That and McCain is not as "die-hard conservative" as most Republicans.

We'll see how it turns out. Reminds me of when I was following Serbia's election the past few weeks.
See I'm the opposite... Hell would have to freeze over before I vote Democrat (now let's see if I get to vote at all or if my paperwork won't go thru before then... grrr).
Having seen and heard what the first Clinton era did to the military I'm not too keen on seeing another one. The lack of spare parts put people in danger every single day and the pay was stuck at a level that put more people in poverty (so much for the great social plans). Having lived in a country with social health care I'd never want to go back. I made virtually no money and had a tax rate of 21% (in the US I would not have gotten taxed at all) and even with the taxation as it is there is a huge lack of funding for healthcare. The average wait on knee surgery is 14 months right now (and if you're not urgent enough it can easily stretch to two years).
I just read an article about the British health care system that they are about 8 years behind in technology and research because there just isn't enough money to pay for it. To pay for it they would have to raise taxes and tax people below the poverty line.
Finland expects to be able to pay social security for another 12 years at the rates they are now... after that they are out of money... and not only that, they are out of tax payers to pay for the social security because of low birth rates (a problem in most of the western world).

So democrat for me equals paying half your salary in taxes and not getting any quality out of it.

[SpyridonOCA]

I voted for Obama in the Democratic primary to prevent Hillary Clinton from becoming our next president. I would be happy with either McCain or Obama as our next president.

[EmperorConstantine]

See I'm the opposite... Hell would have to freeze over before I vote Democrat (now let's see if I get to vote at all or if my paperwork won't go thru before then... grrr).
Having seen and heard what the first Clinton era did to the military I'm not too keen on seeing another one. The lack of spare parts put people in danger every single day and the pay was stuck at a level that put more people in poverty (so much for the great social plans). Having lived in a country with social health care I'd never want to go back. I made virtually no money and had a tax rate of 21% (in the US I would not have gotten taxed at all) and even with the taxation as it is there is a huge lack of funding for healthcare. The average wait on knee surgery is 14 months right now (and if you're not urgent enough it can easily stretch to two years).
I just read an article about the British health care system that they are about 8 years behind in technology and research because there just isn't enough money to pay for it. To pay for it they would have to raise taxes and tax people below the poverty line.
Finland expects to be able to pay social security for another 12 years at the rates they are now... after that they are out of money... and not only that, they are out of tax payers to pay for the social security because of low birth rates (a problem in most of the western world).

So democrat for me equals paying half your salary in taxes and not getting any quality out of it.
I see what you mean about universal healthcare.

The reason why I support it, to an extent, is because my parents have been divorced since about 1996. Mom has, literally, gone to court over not having to cover my brother and I. Even to this day there are still battles waged over whose insurance pays.

The only issues that I cared about this election were foreign affairs. Huckabee is a traitor to the Christians in Palestine by being a die-hard supporter for Israel; so there goes my respect for him. McCain's views I have not seen and Ron Paul simply wishes us to be back into the days of the Articles of Confederation.

Show me a president that supports the idea of an Israeli State and a Palestinian State and supports Kosovo being a part of Serbia and they will have my vote almost no matter what party.

[Dorothea]

See I'm the opposite... Hell would have to freeze over before I vote Democrat (now let's see if I get to vote at all or if my paperwork won't go thru before then... grrr).
Having seen and heard what the first Clinton era did to the military I'm not too keen on seeing another one. The lack of spare parts put people in danger every single day and the pay was stuck at a level that put more people in poverty (so much for the great social plans). Having lived in a country with social health care I'd never want to go back. I made virtually no money and had a tax rate of 21% (in the US I would not have gotten taxed at all) and even with the taxation as it is there is a huge lack of funding for healthcare. The average wait on knee surgery is 14 months right now (and if you're not urgent enough it can easily stretch to two years).
I just read an article about the British health care system that they are about 8 years behind in technology and research because there just isn't enough money to pay for it. To pay for it they would have to raise taxes and tax people below the poverty line.
Finland expects to be able to pay social security for another 12 years at the rates they are now... after that they are out of money... and not only that, they are out of tax payers to pay for the social security because of low birth rates (a problem in most of the western world).

So democrat for me equals paying half your salary in taxes and not getting any quality out of it.
Yes, I remember the time military members were actually on food stamps. It was quite pitiful. :(

[Dorothea]

McCain's views I have not seen.

Show me a president that supports the idea of an Israeli State and a Palestinian State and supports Kosovo being a part of Serbia and they will have my vote almost no matter what party.

McCain has all kinds of votes and stances I don't agree with, such as now he supports embryonic stem cell research, which hasn't even proven to be successful or effective like umbilical cord or adult stem cells have. He also wants to close down Gitmo. I don't mean to be rude and blunt in saying this, but I don't want those monsters in this country. Let 'em stay there. McCain tried to pass an illegal immigration bill (along with Kennedy and even I believe Bush was in favor, which is no surprise, imo) that was really close to amnesty. McCain has the McCain/Feingold deal on campaign finance, which limited free speech (as far as I've heard). He also says he's pro-life, but he actually tried to silence some pro-life protestors in WI, which ended up in court there and all the way to the Supreme Court, who reversed his deal. If I find the story, I'll try to post it here. McCain has a horrible temper and has cussed out his fellow Republican senators right on the floor of the senate. Actually called Pete Dimenichi (sp) a nasty name. Not very professional, if you ask me, and if he flies off the handle so well, how will he handle dealing with Iran? He voted against the Bush tax cuts when it first came about. He's against drilling in ANWAR and wants us to pay a gasoline tax and carbon something or other tax. Ugh. No thanks.

But then, you've got Hill and Obama who are far left, and both have voting records against pro-life. Hillary voted against the ban on partial birth abortion. Obama is on the same track. They both have huge government ideas, and raising taxes. One night in the Dem debate, I actually heard Hillary say she wanted everyone to "share the wealth." It scared me to death. Sounded communistic to me. Everyone clapped after she said that and I thought, "Do these people have any idea what she's proposing?" She's talked about taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. A lady in my Orthodox Class said, "yes, she'll take it from them and put the money in her pocket." LOL I don't doubt that, actually. Ugh. So, no, it's hard to want to vote for them at all.

I don't think there is a president like that out there.


I was listening to Rush's show today, and he'd said it won't matter who's president, nobody is going to leave Iraq. The Dems are pounding on Bush now because they want him to look bad before he gets out, but they don't want to get into office and look like they are being defeatists or something. Just a thought.

[Khaleas]

Show me a president that supports the idea of an Israeli State and a Palestinian State and supports Kosovo being a part of Serbia and they will have my vote almost no matter what party.

One sec, I'll go get a shovel and start digging... ^_^

I really hope McCain picks Thompson as a VP, but apparently there is buzz out there that the Gov Sarah Palin of Alaska has a chance. We shall see... But that's like the sickest joke, OK, we'll pick McCain, he'll croak and then we can get a conservative President. I don't think McCain will ever leave the military high and dry and I do like that factor (or he'll probably have his two sons after him LOL).

[Protoevangel]

I can't get myself to support anyone who wants to keep baby murder legal.

Problem is, I don't like any of the remaining candidates (not the ones that have a snowball's chance in h-e-double-toothpicks, anyway).

[Khaleas]

I can't get myself to support anyone who wants to keep baby murder legal.

Problem is, I don't like any of the remaining candidates (not the ones that have a snowball's chance in h-e-double-toothpicks, anyway).
Kinda the same problem in our household...

[Xpycoctomos]

Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical

I saw your comment on Isreal... but, do you think the Democratic party would be any fairer to Palestine? This may not sound pC and it is not meant to sound biggoted, but the biggest ORIGINAL reason we support isreal (apart from the fact that we created it) is because of the unofficial Democratic Jewish lobby. I agree that we are unfair when it comes to Palestine (they both have their points, but here we are lead to believe they are a bunch of evil people, talk about persecution), but that's not originally the evangelicals' fault. That's the democrats and NOW since the Moral Majority came in and politicized some wacky elements of their version of Christianity, they hopped on the band wagon with the Democrats on that issue. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

But, apart from that issue, why do you think that "Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical" in terms of his presidency? there was only one person I ever heard express concern about THAT facet of Huckabee and they weren't even able to defend it.

This is what concerns me. We're cool with having people in the WH that don't really seem to care about their faith. We're cool with having others who support abortion as a "right". But once we have someone who comes around and, in a VERY respectful manner, is serious about his faith... we get scared. It doesn't bother me that people don't want Huckabee for president. They might think he would be weak on terrorism. THey might think he would pardon too many people. They might hate his "Fair Tax" platform. They may really like him but think that he would be unelectable against Hillary or Obama. And the list goes on. There are so many legitimate reasons to not want Huckabee for president (just as there are for McCain, Paul, Clinton, Obama, etc...) and these reasons depend on the political POV or strategy of each individual.

However, I don't understand why some people are afraid of him becuase he actually cares about his faith. For me, he is the first one NOT to make his faith super political. i always felt like Bush touted his faith when it was convenient. huckabee's seems very genuine. Of course he is going to make that known to evangelicals, but that alone doesn't make his faith a political stoop. The reason I feel confident that it is genuine is becuase even around liberals or moderates or atheists, he doesn't hide it. And, listening to NPR a lot, I don't get the feeling that that is a major concern of liberals. I think, actually, most of them respect his faith and that balance that he has between his faith and serving in public office. What they disagree with are his political stances on many issues including moral ones... but they never say "I don't want a preacher in the white house". They say, "I don't want a conservative in the white house."

I don't see how he is a crazy evangelical. Unless one finds being against abortion, leagalized gay marriage and stem cell research offensive. And the Isreal issue. Right, Hillary Clinton (with her NY support) will thumb her nose at Palestine as quickly as Pat Robertson. Their reasons are different, but the conclusion is the same.

[Dorothea]

But, apart from that issue, why do you think that "Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical" in terms of his presidency? there was only one person I ever heard express concern about THAT facet of Huckabee and they weren't even able to defend it.

This is what concerns me. We're cool with having people in the WH that don't really seem to care about their faith. We're cool with having others who support abortion as a "right". But once we have someone who comes around and, in a VERY respectful manner, is serious about his faith... we get scared. It doesn't bother me that people don't want Huckabee for president. They might think he would be weak on terrorism. THey might think he would pardon too many people. They might hate his "Fair Tax" platform. They may really like him but think that he would be unelectable against Hillary or Obama. And the list goes on. There are so many legitimate reasons to not want Huckabee for president (just as there are for McCain, Paul, Clinton, Obama, etc...) and these reasons depend on the political POV or strategy of each individual.

However, I don't understand why some people are afraid of him becuase he actually cares about his faith. For me, he is the first one NOT to make his faith super political. i always felt like Bush touted his faith when it was convenient. huckabee's seems very genuine. Of course he is going to make that known to evangelicals, but that alone doesn't make his faith a political stoop. The reason I feel confident that it is genuine is becuase even around liberals or moderates or atheists, he doesn't hide it. And, listening to NPR a lot, I don't get the feeling that that is a major concern of liberals. I think, actually, most of them respect his faith and that balance that he has between his faith and serving in public office. What they disagree with are his political stances on many issues including moral ones... but they never say "I don't want a preacher in the white house". They say, "I don't want a conservative in the white house."

I don't see how he is a crazy evangelical. Unless one finds being against abortion, leagalized gay marriage and stem cell research offensive. And the Isreal issue. Right, Hillary Clinton (with her NY support) will thumb her nose at Palestine as quickly as Pat Robertson. Their reasons are different, but the conclusion is the same.
I agree with you, Xpy.

[EmperorConstantine]

I saw your comment on Isreal... but, do you think the Democratic party would be any fairer to Palestine? This may not sound pC and it is not meant to sound biggoted, but the biggest ORIGINAL reason we support isreal (apart from the fact that we created it) is because of the unofficial Democratic Jewish lobby. I agree that we are unfair when it comes to Palestine (they both have their points, but here we are lead to believe they are a bunch of evil people, talk about persecution), but that's not originally the evangelicals' fault. That's the democrats and NOW since the Moral Majority came in and politicized some wacky elements of their version of Christianity, they hopped on the band wagon with the Democrats on that issue. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

But, apart from that issue, why do you think that "Huckabee is a crazy Evangelical" in terms of his presidency? there was only one person I ever heard express concern about THAT facet of Huckabee and they weren't even able to defend it.

This is what concerns me. We're cool with having people in the WH that don't really seem to care about their faith. We're cool with having others who support abortion as a "right". But once we have someone who comes around and, in a VERY respectful manner, is serious about his faith... we get scared. It doesn't bother me that people don't want Huckabee for president. They might think he would be weak on terrorism. THey might think he would pardon too many people. They might hate his "Fair Tax" platform. They may really like him but think that he would be unelectable against Hillary or Obama. And the list goes on. There are so many legitimate reasons to not want Huckabee for president (just as there are for McCain, Paul, Clinton, Obama, etc...) and these reasons depend on the political POV or strategy of each individual.

However, I don't understand why some people are afraid of him becuase he actually cares about his faith. For me, he is the first one NOT to make his faith super political. i always felt like Bush touted his faith when it was convenient. huckabee's seems very genuine. Of course he is going to make that known to evangelicals, but that alone doesn't make his faith a political stoop. The reason I feel confident that it is genuine is becuase even around liberals or moderates or atheists, he doesn't hide it. And, listening to NPR a lot, I don't get the feeling that that is a major concern of liberals. I think, actually, most of them respect his faith and that balance that he has between his faith and serving in public office. What they disagree with are his political stances on many issues including moral ones... but they never say "I don't want a preacher in the white house". They say, "I don't want a conservative in the white house."

I don't see how he is a crazy evangelical. Unless one finds being against abortion, leagalized gay marriage and stem cell research offensive. And the Isreal issue. Right, Hillary Clinton (with her NY support) will thumb her nose at Palestine as quickly as Pat Robertson. Their reasons are different, but the conclusion is the same.
Xpy, I see what you're saying, I know where you're coming from, but there are many things about Republican ideas that I just can not tolerate.

I agree on many of the social ways of Republicans. Abortion is a nay, "gay marriage" is a nay, families are a yay and abstinence is also a yay.

But its just the economy. The dollar has gone down too far. We're all having money taken out of our paychecks to go to Social Security and we probably won't be able to use it. Politics are too pro-business the way they sit now. What we need is someone who can paint a new coat of paint on our house and re-shingle the roof.

And for Huckabee. He supports Israel through and through taking the Evangelical party line by saying that God has destined it for Jews (another topic in itself) and at the rate the Israelis are going in liquidating non-Judaism in the region, we'll have another Saudi Arabia but with Judaism and not Islam in no time flat. That is why I can not support Huckabee.
Gravel was one that I liked about Palestine; he supports both a Jewish State and a Palestinian State while actually helping the Palestinian side. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a prayer.

I just can not in good conscience vote for a party that put such a fool in power for eight years that has put us in such a rut. I could not live with myself if I did.

[Xpycoctomos]

Xpy, I see what you're saying, I know where you're coming from, but there are many things about Republican ideas that I just can not tolerate.

I agree on many of the social ways of Republicans. Abortion is a nay, "gay marriage" is a nay, families are a yay and abstinence is also a yay.

But its just the economy. The dollar has gone down too far. We're all having money taken out of our paychecks to go to Social Security and we probably won't be able to use it. Politics are too pro-business the way they sit now. What we need is someone who can paint a new coat of paint on our house and re-shingle the roof.

And for Huckabee. He supports Israel through and through taking the Evangelical party line by saying that God has destined it for Jews (another topic in itself) and at the rate the Israelis are going in liquidating non-Judaism in the region, we'll have another Saudi Arabia but with Judaism and not Islam in no time flat. That is why I can not support Huckabee.
Gravel was one that I liked about Palestine; he supports both a Jewish State and a Palestinian State while actually helping the Palestinian side. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a prayer.

I just can not in good conscience vote for a party that put such a fool in power for eight years that has put us in such a rut. I could not live with myself if I did.
So for Huckabee, it's only the Isreal thing? That's fine, but I'm just trying to understand clearly.

I agree with you that the fundy-Isreali-Pat-Robertson reason is cooky at best and even maddening and scary. Can you post some link or something demonstrating not only Huckabee's stance on Isreal but also his reasoning? Thanks a lot.

Xpy