Eucharist and Sins

[Dominus Fidelis]

Hello-

I just read something in your forum that might explain where one of my students from my RCIA class was coming from when we got into a little debate once.

When I was explaining the Catholic belief that you have to have your conscience clean to take the Eucharist, he seemed to think that the Eucharist itself wipes away your sins, not confession.

Is this a Lutheran teaching? Do you all have a concept of "mortal" sin and does the Eucharist wash that away?

Thanks

[Rechtgläubig]

Hello-

I just read something in your forum that might explain where one of my students from my RCIA class was coming from when we got into a little debate once.

When I was explaining the Catholic belief that you have to have your conscience clean to take the Eucharist, he seemed to think that the Eucharist itself wipes away your sins, not confession.

Is this a Lutheran teaching? Do you all have a concept of "mortal" sin and does the Eucharist wash that away?

ThanksHi DefensOfFidei, I haven't had my coffee this morning, but I'll give it a shot. ^_^

I think I have to start out with our view of Justification because that is where all forgiveness of sins comes from. Lutherans believe that Christ's sacrifice fully Atoned for sin - period (Objective Justification). That accomplished fact gets applied to us through Faith, that is how we actually recieve the benifits (Subjective Justification) Christ won for us. Absolution after confession is simply a declaration of this fact, "Christ has forgiven all your sin". From the Small Catechism...

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.
...probably says it better then I could. So that is why we say the Eucharist does Forgive sins.

It is early here so if this doesn't make sense please ask for clarification. :sleep:

:D

Peace in Christ.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Ok, so if I understood correctly then all sins are already forgiven at the moment of conversion and the Sacraments of Eucharist/Confession are merely statements of what already happened.

Is that right?

[Rechtgläubig]

Oh sorry I missed a question...

...as for "mortal sins", we view all sin to be equally damning. Lying, stealing, committing adultery, thinking about comitting adultery, eating an apple (Gen 3)...

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, so if I understood correctly then all sins are already forgiven at the moment of conversion and the Sacraments of Eucharist/Confession are merely statements of what already happened.

Is that right?

Pretty much. :D

There is more to it, but you got the basics of what we believe.

Time to make coffee! :yawn:

[Dominus Fidelis]

Ok, cool, thanks Recht-amathingy

:D

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, cool, thanks Recht-amathingy

:DLOLOL!!!!! HAHA!

Dude, that was too funny!

^_^

[JVAC]

I like to think of it this way:

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
Of course, I did grow up Catholic, so it might not be the more popular view, and I know Luther thought John 6 invalid when talking about the Holy Sacrament of the Altar, but my thoughts and feelings are, exactly what is said above.

On a secondary note, we Lutherans also must go through confession before the Sacrament, we must examine ourselves and be repentant, or else we will only be "eating and drinking damnation on ourselves".

-James

[LuxPerpetua]

Why did Luther think John 6 invalid?

[JVAC]

He wrote, in the Pagan Servitude I think, that he thought it didn't apply because he was talking before the Sacrament was instituted. I, however, am inclined to disagree, I see no problem with divine fore-shaddowing, or even thinking that as St. John's reference to the Eucharist, which would be missing entirely if Chapter six was excluded.

When Luther was talking about John 6 he was trying to disprove Aquinian Transubstantiation or at least raise doubts in it, to show the tyranny of the Roman Bishop. I think if it weren't for transubstantiation Luther might have thought more favorably about it, however, according to the "Pagan Servitude", he seems to think of John 6 as a metaphor, with which i disagree, respectively.

-James

[Rechtgläubig]

I respectively disagree with your respectively disagreement. :D


I don't think He is talking about Communion in John 6.

[JVAC]

I respectively disagree with your respectively disagreement. :D
LOL, you would :D

I don't think He is talking about Communion in John 6.
Along the same lines as Luther or what?

-James

[Dominus Fidelis]

On a secondary note, we Lutherans also must go through confession before the Sacrament, we must examine ourselves and be repentant, or else we will only be "eating and drinking damnation on ourselves".


Ok, now I am really confused! :doh:

I thought Recht-amathingy said the opposite of this statement?

:help:

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, now I am really confused! :doh:

I thought Recht-amathingy said the opposite of this statement?

:help:Nope, I just didn't really get into it. JVAC is correct. Here are some of the questions Luther suggested a Christian ask to examine himself before Communion... 1. Do you believe that you are a sinner?
Yes, I believe it. I am a sinner.
2. How do you know this?
From the Ten Commandments, which I have not kept.

3. Are you sorry for your sins?
Yes, I am sorry that I have sinned against God.

4. What have you deserved from God because of your sins?
His wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation. See Romans 6:21, 23.

5. Do you hope to be saved?
Yes, that is my hope.

6. In whom then do you trust?
In my dear Lord Jesus Christ.

7. Who is Christ?
The Son of God, true God and man.

8. How many Gods are there?
Only one, but there are three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

9. What has Christ done for you that you trust in Him?
He died for me and shed His blood for me on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

10. Did the Father also die for you?
He did not. The Father is God only, as is the Holy Spirit; but the Son is both true God and true man. He died for me and shed his blood for me.

11. How do you know this?
From the holy Gospel, from the words instituting the Sacrament, and by His body and blood given me as a pledge in the Sacrament.

12. What are the Words of Institution?
Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: "Take eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me." In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

13. Do you believe, then, that the true body and blood of Christ are in the Sacrament?
Yes, I believe it.

14. What convinces you to believe this?
The word of Christ: Take, eat, this is My body; drink of it, all of you, this is My blood.

15. What should we do when we eat His body and drink His blood, and in this way receive His pledge?
We should remember and proclaim His death and the shedding of His blood, as He taught us: This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.

16. Why should we remember and proclaim His death?
First, so that we may learn to believe that no creature could make satisfaction for our sins. Only Christ, true God and man, could do that. Second, so we may learn to be horrified by our sins, and to regard them as very serious. Third, so we may find joy and comfort in Christ alone, and through faith in Him be saved.

17. What motivated Christ to die and make full payment for your sins?
His great love for His Father and for me and other sinners, as it is written in John 14; Romans 5; Galatians 2 and Ephesians 5.

18. Finally, why do you wish to go to the Sacrament?
That I may learn to believe that Christ, out of great love, died for my sin, and also learn from Him to love God and my neighbor.

19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?
First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?
To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15-16 and in 1 John 2 and 5. Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2. Confession and Absolution are a part of our litergy so we do confess, but if private confession is needed we can always go to our pastors in private as well.

[Rechtgläubig]

LOL, you would :D


Along the same lines as Luther or what?

-JamesThere are some good arguements here against it...


No one disputes the similarities between the words of John 6 and the institution of the Lord's Supper. However, there are good reasons to conclude that John is not speaking of the Lord's Supper in chapter 6.

The timing of Jesus' words is significant. Nowhere else in all the Gospels does Jesus mention his supper until he institutes it on the night of his betrayal. In the context of John 6, Jesus' words follow naturally out of his "I am the bread of life" statement (6:35). In that verse, he expands the meaning already to show he's talking about believing in him. "Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.'" The way Jesus speaks here is consistent with his other "I AM" statements in John, and the meaning fits the context of all of John.

If you look closely again at Kuske's Catechism, you'll see that he is not equating the words about flesh and blood in John 6 with the Lord's Supper when he quotes John 6:63: "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." He is showing that the power of God to salvation come from the words of Christ. That's true in the context of John 6 and in the use of the Lord's Supper. Also, as you noted, the Formula of Concord says that John 6 is speaking chiefly to the "spiritual eating and drinking."

Perhaps the strongest argument against seeing the Lord's Supper in John 6 comes from the words you quoted in John 6:53: "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.'" In John 3:36, Jesus says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. . . . " Only unbelief condemns a person, not the failure to receive the Lord's Supper, so John 6:53 cannot be referring to the supper.

We shouldn't be too surprised that John does not mention the Lord's supper. He often left out things already reported in the other Gospels. It seems he assumed his readers were familiar with them.

PAX!

[BronxBriar]

...we Lutherans also must go through confession before the Sacrament, we must examine ourselves and be repentant, or else we will only be "eating and drinking damnation on ourselves".
-James
Would that be 'confession' in the Roman Catholic sense? Confession one-on-one to your priest/pastor? Or is it solely the self examination mentioned in a later post?

Thanks for the clarification.

[JVAC]

Would that be 'confession' in the Roman Catholic sense? Confession one-on-one to your priest/pastor? Or is it solely the self examination mentioned in a later post?

Thanks for the clarification
I would say no, it is not 'confession' in the Roman Catholic sense only because in the Lutheran Church confession is merely a Rite and not a Sacrament. The Church of Rome has a much looser deffinition of Sacrament and applies it to seven Sacraments, whereas the Lutheran Church has a rigid Sacrament deffinition that only allows two for two Sacraments.

Again, another difference is the structure of Confession, Church of Rome has Contrition, Pennance and Absolution; whereas the Lutheran Church has only Contrition and Absolution. That is to say, the anxious and burdened conscience is in terrors of it's own sin (contrition) and yet recieves the Good News of Christ crucified and raised, and His forgiveness, (absolution). Lutherans do not busy the person afterwards with "nominal works", by this I mean if one is forgiven, he will be forgiven in faith, from faith, and through faith. Of course the Church of Rome allows Pennance to be another Sacrament, and so we differ in these respects.

Now, in all other cases, our confession is just like the Roman Catholic confession. Where a burdened and sinful conscience faithfully confesses its errors to the Lord and his Church and after which receiving the Word of Absolution which comforts the anxious conscience.

Now in the Lutheran Church this can happen two ways, Public Confession (with the rest of the Church during Mass [between you and God]) or Private Confession (in private at another time of the week [with you, the Pastor and God]). However, this always happens before the Eucharist is celbrated.

-James