Symbols in Judaism versus Icons in Christianity. What is the difference... .. [Archive]

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Philothei

11th February 2008, 01:04 AM

Thekla

11th February 2008, 01:22 AM

buzuxi02

11th February 2008, 01:25 AM

Judaism has many symbols, the most ancient symbol of Judaism is the menorah.
A mezzuzah, which is usually mounted on the entrance of a doorway, is touched, then the fingers that touched it are kissed.

Its also popular for jews to wear a red string around their wrists which has been blessed at a holy persons grave as an amulet.

Philothei

11th February 2008, 01:28 AM

/I have a question in the jewerly section they have the "evil eye" an a pendant... Buzuki do you know if that Kabala speaks about the evil eye.... As you know is it so contraversial with us.....

Philothei

11th February 2008, 01:35 AM

a link to some of the 'pictures' in the Synagogue of Dura-Europos

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/dura-europos-pictures/

(note the similarity of the portrayal of Abraham's hands -- covered -- to Christian Iconography)
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/images/Titles/syria.gif Photo Gallery: Dura Europos

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Did you mean this one?

buzuxi02

11th February 2008, 01:37 AM

Some say the red string is to ward off the evil eye. The red string has been made popular in recent years because the singer Madonna always wears one since her interest in kabbalah.

Another group of amulets which both jews and muslims refer to as "hamsa" pendants (aka hamesh pendants) are basically to ward off the evil eye.

If you scroll down on the link it gives a description of these hamsa pendants and that judaism seem to view the evil eye the same way Orthodoxy views it.

Judaism 101: Signs and Symbols (http://www.jewfaq.org/signs.htm)

Philothei

11th February 2008, 01:40 AM

buzuxi02

11th February 2008, 01:51 AM

Yes we do but we do not wear the "eye" as it is pagan istead we use the Cross... like ... the Jews whould use the star of David??? I guess... I know about Madonna I was wondering if anyone was going to bring it up....lol....
The Star of David is a recent jewish symbol, if it wasnt for ww2 where jews were forced to wear the star of david to identify themselves with, it may not be recognized as an exclusive jewish symbol today.

If i remember correctly it was first used by Czech jews in Prague in the 14th century, then sporadically began spreading to other jewish communities in eastern europe. Most historians believe that it became popular among the jews for the very fact that it wasnt recognized as a religious symbol by anyone, thus they can freely use it without any stigma attached to it.

Thekla

11th February 2008, 01:54 AM

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/images/Titles/syria.gif Photo Gallery: Dura Europos

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Did you mean this one?
I can't seem to post the picture I mean --

in the link in post "2, its a full-body representation of Abraham, with both of his hands covered, like in the icons of some of our other Saints

Philothei

11th February 2008, 01:57 AM

It is still a Symbol though and symbols can be seen as idols... The Torah is specific you know.... NO Symbols no idols.. nothing... Because if symbolizes Israel and israel is also a religious state it is thus a religious symbol...not only a secular... Just because they started using it then that does not mean they do not use it as a religious symbol today. I know that "their" case is different as being a Jew is part of your "secular" idendity that it is one and the same....

Philothei

11th February 2008, 02:04 AM

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/dura-europos-pictures/slides/synagogue-fresco-abraham-pd.jpg (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/syria/dura-europos-pictures/synagogue-fresco-abraham-pd.jpg)

Did you mean this one?

Thekla

11th February 2008, 02:11 AM

buzuxi02

11th February 2008, 06:06 AM

I went over to the protestant judaizer forum to see what the fuss was about. Typical fundamentalism, taking the pentateuch literally unless it doesnt agree with them.

If they feel so strongly against images, then they should not own computers or televisions, or painting or cameras or magazines or dolls afterall it clearly violates Deuteronomy 4.16-19 which says that practically all images regardless of intent are idolatrous.

The hippocrisy of the Saduccees are still alive i see.

christianmomof3

11th February 2008, 11:20 PM

Wow. I am saddened by the last response.
I am not a typical member of the Messianic forum, so my reply may not represent their views. I was raised in Reform Judaism and now meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery.
I am not familiar with the pictures posted in the second post.
As far as I know, Judaism does not endorse images of God or praying to images or statues.
The mezzuzah, which was mentioned here and in the other thread, is a little box with a scroll in it that contains part of the words of the Bible in it - from what ya'll call the old testament. It is a custom to kiss one's finger and touch it as one passes through the door way that it is nailed to. The mezzuzah itself is biblical - from Deut. ch 6 I believe thou shalt write them on the doorposts of thy house and upon thy gates. Referring to the words of the Lord. So, kissing one's finger and touching it shows respect and reverence towards the word of God. It is not praying to the mezzuzah or even praying to God through the mezzuzah.

In the Jewish religion there is not much of a concept of the afterlife. There is also no concept of praying to anyone but the one and only God.

Photos and statues are fine as long as they are not prayed to or seen as photos or statues of God Himself.
The word Image in the Bible always refers to things that were prayed to and that was the problem that was addressed in the Bible.

Therefore, the Jewish religion has no problem with photographs, paintings and statues.
The Jewish religion has a problem or issue with praying to anything besides God Himself.

I personally thought that Christians were brainwashed less than intelligent people who were wrong because I thought that they were praying to three gods - a father, son and ghost and also because they prayed to statues and paintings and ink blots and stains on underpasses of roadways and on doors and burnt parts of toast that they thought looked like the virgin Mary etc...

And the Lord saved me and I am now a born again Christian.
And sorry , but I still think the people who pray to toast are less than intelligent although I believe they still may be brothers and sisters in Christ because He is not a respector of persons and He saves the idiots as well as the intelligent and He even saved me and we don't have to be geniuses and understand everything to be saved - thank God.

However, I do not believe that the Lord wants us to pray to images on toast or canvas or wood or anything else - He wants us to pray to Him and to Him only.

Thekla

11th February 2008, 11:48 PM

Wow. I am saddened by the last response.
I am not a typical member of the Messianic forum, so my reply may not represent their views. I was raised in Reform Judaism and now meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery.

First, welcome ! Thank-you so much for coming; may God bless our discussion.
I am not familiar with the pictures posted in the second post.
As far as I know, Judaism does not endorse images of God or praying to images or statues.

the EO does not endorse images of God the Father, depictions of the Holy Spirit with the exception of the Baptism (dove) and Pentecost (tongues of flame); also, praying to the actual object is not endorsed. see below
The mezzuzah, which was mentioned here and in the other thread, is a little box with a scroll in it that contains part of the words of the Bible in it - from what ya'll call the old testament. It is a custom to kiss one's finger and touch it as one passes through the door way that it is nailed to. The mezzuzah itself is biblical - from Deut. ch 6 I believe thou shalt write them on the doorposts of thy house and upon thy gates. Referring to the words of the Lord. So, kissing one's finger and touching it shows respect and reverence towards the word of God. It is not praying to the mezzuzah or even praying to God through the mezzuzah.

this is exactly what we do with the Gospel and icons -- our kissing is a show of reverence; further, the icons of the Saints are visual records of the victory of Christ.

In the Jewish religion there is not much of a concept of the afterlife. There is also no concept of praying to anyone but the one and only God.

this is a problem with translation; throughout the NT, several words
(8 or so ?) are typically translated as prayer. There is prayer - to God, versus vow, request, ask etc. We tend to keep the older English usage of the word pray -- which meant both pray to God and ask (applied to anyone)

Photos and statues are fine as long as they are not prayed to or seen as photos or statues of God Himself.
The word Image in the Bible always refers to things that were prayed to and that was the problem that was addressed in the Bible.

we do have icons of Christ; again, we can only portray in icons what has been seen. (the concept of see and pass on is covered somewhat in one of the epistles of John, and is worth considering in this discussion). The rules governing the 'writing' of an icon are specialized; icons are highly symbolic and convey a teaching consistent with revelation and the Bible. The icon "witnesses" a teaching. They are "visual Talmud". We do not pray to an object, we express our affirmation/confession of agreement with what they convey.

Therefore, the Jewish religion has no problem with photographs, paintings and statues.
The Jewish religion has a problem or issue with praying to anything besides God Himself.

we certainly agree on this ! :) see above for clarification on pray

I personally thought that Christians were brainwashed less than intelligent people who were wrong because I thought that they were praying to three gods - a father, son and ghost and also because they prayed to statues and paintings and ink blots and stains on underpasses of roadways and on doors and burnt parts of toast that they thought looked like the virgin Mary etc...

you're a good sport to 'admit' this -- and frankly, it often looks that way. However, what is in the heart - our understanding, in EO - is quite different from what appears to be ...

And the Lord saved me and I am now a born again Christian.
And sorry , but I still think the people who pray to toast are less than intelligent although I believe they still may be brothers and sisters in Christ because He is not a respector of persons and He saves the idiots as well as the intelligent and He even saved me and we don't have to be geniuses and understand everything to be saved - thank God.

He indeed is merciful :amen:

However, I do not believe that the Lord wants us to pray to images on toast or canvas or wood or anything else - He wants us to pray to Him and to Him only.

again, if the proper NT terms are applied to what you say, we agree !
The problem can be getting a fuller understanding of the practice.

Thank-you again, you're a blessing !!!!

Thekla

12th February 2008, 02:07 AM

St. John of Damascus on iconography:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html

Philothei

12th February 2008, 03:02 AM

yes :)
I wonder what is that black square behind Abraham's head... Anyone knows?

Thekla

13th February 2008, 07:33 AM

link to Christian images from the catacombs (many dating from the 3rd century)

http://research.yale.edu:8084/divdl/eikon/subjects.jsp?subjectid=470

link to story (with image) about recently excavated Synagogue, Roman era

http://www.livescience.com/imageoftheday/siod_071123.html

ContraMundum

13th February 2008, 10:55 AM

Are the practices of modern times Messianic Jews and Judaism different that those of the Orthodox Jews? Also why is it different to kiss the Shema (Mezzuzah) or the Torah or an icon or the Cross? :doh:

Why do Jewish Temples have "symbols" then?:confused:
http://www.mazaltovpages.com/HTM_jewelry/jewelry.htm
http://www.mazaltovpages.com/HTM_rosh-hashanah/artscroll_rscards.htm
God bless,
Philothei

Thanks for bringing this up...

I'll make a couple of corrections, in humilty, just to try to help.

Jews don't kiss the Shema, we pray the Shema. It's the name of a prayer. "Shema" is the first word in the prayer "Hear oh Israel, Adonai is our God, Adonai is One" when prayed in Hebrew.

We kiss the Mezuzah, the Torah, our Tallit (prayer shawl), and other things. We have on an individual level more ritual than any Christian, except perhaps a Priest in an Orthodox liturgy. For example, at Pesach, we have over three hours of ritual to get through, touching on such things as which way to lean when we eat, how quickly to eat certain courses, what questions are asked and so forth. We also have many, many customs about a myriad of other things.

Also, when one reads the Talmud regarding the Temple services, there is so much ritual and artwork in the place that the mind is both boggled and fascinated. What's more, there is found a huge amount of things the priests did in the Temple that is still done by priests from the Apostolic traditions to this day.

Furthermore, the modern-day "Messianic" Jews are not necessarily Jews. They are largely Gentiles who want to be like the Jews. True converted Jews have never elected those modern Protestant-ized denominations to speak for us and although there are Jews within those congregations, a lot of us are involved in Apostolic Christianity- for the obvious reasons that ancient Christianity is more like Temple era Judaism than a pentecostal church with lots of Jewish symbols.

This link is typical of what orthodox Jews think of the Messianic movement. (http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/Missionaries/messianicChurch.html)

And yes, there is found embossed carvings in a synagogue- the most obvious one is found on the Torah scroll. Often, the breastplate of the scroll is an embossed depiction of a scroll and perhaps you would find a metal crown or pomegranates on top of the scroll (which would be strictly forbidden according to the scriptures if we interpreted the Bible like the fundies).

However, there are some things that Orthodox Christians can do to help us Jews enter the church. They are, namely:

a) Speak out against the anti-semitism found in the writings of great and godly men like St John Chrysostom or certain modern Patriarchs and so many others that bring their nationalist prejudices into their teachings. Anti-semitism is a road to disaster, according to the Bible.

b) Let us keep our traditions, our Sabbath, our Feasts, kosher and prayers when we enter the Church. These things were never intended to be salvific in and of themselves, but rather, they are our customs and covenant signs and like all prayers and religious customs, if done in faith they contribute to our theosis. Jews should be both loyal servants of Christ in the Church but also devout witnesses to other Jews. Remember- even St Paul circumcised St Timothy after the Jerusalem Council had decreed it unecessary for gentiles and St Paul even kept up other Jewish customs and laws too. If Orthodox Christians can keep their culture, so can we. If there are Greek, Russian, Latin, Romanian, Serbian or other valid liturgical and cultural witnesses in the Faith then why not a Hebrew one again? This is a dream for many of us. Our history in salvation is the oldest in the world- this should be respected and rediscovered- within the Church.

Anyway- just my two cents. Hope this helps.

ContraMundum

13th February 2008, 11:18 AM

I was raised in Reform Judaism and now meet with a local church in the Lord's Recovery.
IIn the Jewish religion there is not much of a concept of the afterlife. There is also no concept of praying to anyone but the one and only God.

While you may not have encountered this in the Reform movement, many modern day Jews (mainly Hasidic) do pray to the departed- in particular when the departed is a well known tzaddik or a Rebbe.

Here's a page devoted to asking for blessings from the departed Lubavitcher Rebbe. (http://www.kingmessiah.com/58/)

The Jews of course also pray for the departed. (http://www.jewishmag.com/12MAG/KADISH/kadish.htm) You've no doubt seen and heard the Mourner's Kaddish in shule(but ironically death is not mentioned in the prayer!). Prayer for the departed also happened in Jewish history as recorded during the Maccabean victory and therefore it continues to this day.

Anyway, I'm sure you're familiar with all this, but I've put it here for the others.

Philothei

13th February 2008, 11:47 AM

Thank you Contra Mundum for all your information and correctiosn...:hug: feel free to come in anytime and participate. We love learning about our similarities....:thumbsup:
Peace :)
(Shalom)

Philothei

Ivy

13th February 2008, 01:59 PM

Its also popular for jews to wear a red string around their wrists which has been blessed at a holy persons grave as an amulet.

My understanding is that the red string is associated with kabballah, Jewish mysticism, and that kabballah isn't mainstream Judaism, it's more a specialized study area that only stable people over the age of 40 are supposed to be able to pursue.

Thekla

13th February 2008, 02:00 PM

Ivy

13th February 2008, 02:09 PM

:wave: I very much enjoyed your posts in the other forum.

Thank you for the welcome. :)

Philothei

13th February 2008, 07:44 PM

If there are Greek, Russian, Latin, Romanian, Serbian or other valid liturgical and cultural witnesses in the Faith then why not a Hebrew one again? This is a dream for many of us. Our history in salvation is the oldest in the world- this should be respected and rediscovered- within the Church.
I totally agree with all your other points too. lEspecially about worship I do think it is fundamental that people worship in their own language... and of course Hebrew being the language of Christ (aramaic to be excact...) would be wonderfull :)...

I have not yet heard our liturgy in aramaic and I am sure it would sound beautiful :)

Also as far as Jewish people and the Greek Orthodox Church I think we do have plenty of recent (WWII) examples of 'extending' one's brotherly hand as we helped the Jewish minority (in Thessaloniki) from the enemy....

I personally think that the polemics in St. John Chsysostome is not even looked today with such strictness and mostly viewed by most accademically.

I wish that everyone has a blessed (Pesha?) Pascha :)

Philothei

buzuxi02

13th February 2008, 08:21 PM

My understanding is that the red string is associated with kabballah, Jewish mysticism, and that kabballah isn't mainstream Judaism, it's more a specialized study area that only stable people over the age of 40 are supposed to be able to pursue.
Yes your correct, but wearing the string isnt limited to those jews with an interest in the kabbalah. For instance i know a russian jew who isnt into kabbalah nor is very devout, but wears one and even passes them out to friends (both jews and non jews). And she gets them from other jewish friends who travel to Israel (also not kabbalah practitioners) and bring dozens of these strings back. Any jew can easily find them in any synagogue.

Philothei

13th February 2008, 08:43 PM

Thekla

13th February 2008, 10:57 PM

I would like to think of Kambala though as something seperate that was brought out to light recently and out of its rightful context... Something like the prayer ropes in Greece that everyone buys just to use it as a souvenir coming back... without even having the faintest idea of what is really its usage....

Madonna I think did a "job" on Kambala... as a spiritual writings..she overexposed them and that brought more confusion... I am sure there is more to it of what the pop culture wants us to believe...

Philothei
this sort of thing happens so frequently, its something I've come to assume will happen.

to follow is a quote from a post by ContraMundum (another forum)
thanks ContrMundum for posting this !

Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University says :

"As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect, and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times. Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendent, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1,5) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24. The 'six months' after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner's birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history"

(From Osservatore Romano 24 Dec 1998)

Philothei

14th February 2008, 12:40 AM

:wave: I very much enjoyed your posts in the other forum.

Thank you for the welcome. :)
welcome Ivy :)

ContraMundum

14th February 2008, 01:37 AM

Thanks for the kind words, friends!

christianmomof3

14th February 2008, 10:12 AM

While you may not have encountered this in the Reform movement, many modern day Jews (mainly Hasidic) do pray to the departed- in particular when the departed is a well known tzaddik or a Rebbe.

Here's a page devoted to asking for blessings from the departed Lubavitcher Rebbe. (http://www.kingmessiah.com/58/)

The Jews of course also pray for the departed. (http://www.jewishmag.com/12MAG/KADISH/kadish.htm) You've no doubt seen and heard the Mourner's Kaddish in shule(but ironically death is not mentioned in the prayer!). Prayer for the departed also happened in Jewish history as recorded during the Maccabean victory and therefore it continues to this day.

Anyway, I'm sure you're familiar with all this, but I've put it here for the others.

Hmm, thank you for this and for the information in the post above it. I agree with the info in the link in the other post. I think that many Jews consider the Lubavitchers to be an odd sect and not representative of Judaism at large. The one thing I remember learning about them was that they thought men and women should not touch and they even had a sheet with a hole in it to prevent them from touching one another except for the necessary parts for procreation.

As far as I know, the book of Maccabees is not used by the Jewish religion - at least I had never heard of it in Reform Judaism.

I always thought that the mourner's Kaddish was for the mourners - that they would be comforted - not for the dead people who are already gone.
But, I only know it in Hebrew and not in English - never did learn how to translate it - I would love to learn it someday.
Do you have a translation of it?

Rdr Iakovos

14th February 2008, 05:59 PM

Thanks for bringing this up...

I'll make a couple of corrections, in humilty, just to try to help.

Jews don't kiss the Shema, we pray the Shema. It's the name of a prayer. "Shema" is the first word in the prayer "Hear oh Israel, Adonai is our God, Adonai is One" when prayed in Hebrew.

We kiss the Mezuzah, the Torah, our Tallit (prayer shawl), and other things. We have on an individual level more ritual than any Christian, except perhaps a Priest in an Orthodox liturgy. For example, at Pesach, we have over three hours of ritual to get through, touching on such things as which way to lean when we eat, how quickly to eat certain courses, what questions are asked and so forth. We also have many, many customs about a myriad of other things.

Also, when one reads the Talmud regarding the Temple services, there is so much ritual and artwork in the place that the mind is both boggled and fascinated. What's more, there is found a huge amount of things the priests did in the Temple that is still done by priests from the Apostolic traditions to this day.

Furthermore, the modern-day "Messianic" Jews are not necessarily Jews. They are largely Gentiles who want to be like the Jews. True converted Jews have never elected those modern Protestant-ized denominations to speak for us and although there are Jews within those congregations, a lot of us are involved in Apostolic Christianity- for the obvious reasons that ancient Christianity is more like Temple era Judaism than a pentecostal church with lots of Jewish symbols.

This link is typical of what orthodox Jews think of the Messianic movement. (http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/Missionaries/messianicChurch.html)

And yes, there is found embossed carvings in a synagogue- the most obvious one is found on the Torah scroll. Often, the breastplate of the scroll is an embossed depiction of a scroll and perhaps you would find a metal crown or pomegranates on top of the scroll (which would be strictly forbidden according to the scriptures if we interpreted the Bible like the fundies).

However, there are some things that Orthodox Christians can do to help us Jews enter the church. They are, namely:

a) Speak out against the anti-semitism found in the writings of great and godly men like St John Chrysostom or certain modern Patriarchs and so many others that bring their nationalist prejudices into their teachings. Anti-semitism is a road to disaster, according to the Bible.

b) Let us keep our traditions, our Sabbath, our Feasts, kosher and prayers when we enter the Church. These things were never intended to be salvific in and of themselves, but rather, they are our customs and covenant signs and like all prayers and religious customs, if done in faith they contribute to our theosis. Jews should be both loyal servants of Christ in the Church but also devout witnesses to other Jews. Remember- even St Paul circumcised St Timothy after the Jerusalem Council had decreed it unecessary for gentiles and St Paul even kept up other Jewish customs and laws too. If Orthodox Christians can keep their culture, so can we. If there are Greek, Russian, Latin, Romanian, Serbian or other valid liturgical and cultural witnesses in the Faith then why not a Hebrew one again? This is a dream for many of us. Our history in salvation is the oldest in the world- this should be respected and rediscovered- within the Church.

Anyway- just my two cents. Hope this helps.
One of the best posts I've ever read on this site.
Thank you!

ContraMundum

15th February 2008, 03:27 AM

Hmm, thank you for this and for the information in the post above it. I agree with the info in the link in the other post. I think that many Jews consider the Lubavitchers to be an odd sect and not representative of Judaism at large. The one thing I remember learning about them was that they thought men and women should not touch and they even had a sheet with a hole in it to prevent them from touching one another except for the necessary parts for procreation.

I have some family involved with Chabad-Lubavitch. The "don't touch" thing isn't necessarily true (beyond normal Jewish laws of niddah), and the story about the sheet is one of those urban tales that started when people saw someone's tallit katan hanging on the clothes line- they made the assumption from there I guess.

As far as I know, the book of Maccabees is not used by the Jewish religion - at least I had never heard of it in Reform Judaism.

It was dropped at Yavneh, after the Temple was destroyed, but is still part of Jewish literature and reflective of Jewish theology. It's more part of tradition than scripture, so to speak.

I always thought that the mourner's Kaddish was for the mourners - that they would be comforted - not for the dead people who are already gone.
But, I only know it in Hebrew and not in English - never did learn how to translate it - I would love to learn it someday.
Do you have a translation of it?

Sure, I posted one before. I'll post the link again: the translation is at the bottom of the page. (http://www.jewishmag.com/12MAG/KADISH/kadish.htm)

:) Cool to see you here!

christianmomof3

15th February 2008, 10:19 AM

I have some family involved with Chabad-Lubavitch. The "don't touch" thing isn't necessarily true (beyond normal Jewish laws of niddah), and the story about the sheet is one of those urban tales that started when people saw someone's tallit katan hanging on the clothes line- they made the assumption from there I guess.

It was dropped at Yavneh, after the Temple was destroyed, but is still part of Jewish literature and reflective of Jewish theology. It's more part of tradition than scripture, so to speak.

Sure, I posted one before. I'll post the link again: the translation is at the bottom of the page. (http://www.jewishmag.com/12MAG/KADISH/kadish.htm)

:) Cool to see you here!
Thank you.
Here is the translation from your link:
MOURNER'S KADDISH
Exalted and hallowed be His great Name (Congregation: Amen.)
Throughout the world which He has created according to His will,
May his kingship reign, and His redemption come forth and hasten the coming of His Redeemer (Congregation. Amen.)
In your life and in your days and in the lifetime of the entire House of Israel, speedily and quickly say, Amen. (Congregation: Amen.)
May His great Name be blessed in this world and in all worlds. (The Mourner Repeats this line)
Blessed and praised exalted and extolled, honored, adored and lauded be the Name of the Holy 0ne be He, (Congregation: Amen.)
Way beyond all the blessings, hymns, praises and consolations uttered in the world; and say, Amen. (Congregation: Amen.)
May there be abundant peace from heaven, and a good life for us and for all and say, Amen. (Congregation: Amen.) He who makes peace in His heaven, may he make peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen. (Congregation: Amen.)

It is interesting to see the meaning. It does not mention dead people and does seem to be about comforting the mourners. I have been to many Jewish funerals - including my parents and grandparents and many others and I have never heard the mourner's kaddish referred to as a prayer for the dead. Usually the Rabbi says something like "may these timeless words that have comforted us and our fathers for generations comfort us again today". Or something to that effect.

Ivy

15th February 2008, 10:43 AM

Mourner's Kaddish was one of the first portions of Jewish liturgy I was ever exposed to. I was impressed, because maybe on the occasion of the death of a loved one, one wouldn't "feel" like praising God, maybe one would feel like questioning his goodness......yet there is the high praise of God, on a sad occasion, which to me shows courage and character.

CM, you made me laugh......tallit katan hanging on the clothesline....lol :D