Dairy/Meat Issue

[Nora7]

Hello. Today is my first visit to this forum and I am excited to throw out this question that has been burning for awhile. :confused: I have spoken to many Messianic Rabbi's and not one of them seems to agree on how to keep Kosher.

Some say follow Biblical Kosher according to Leviticus.

Others say follow all of the rules of Kashruth as do the traditional non Messianc (yet) Jews.

Others say you can mix meat and dairy because the chances of eating meat with milk from the mother is unlikely.

Others say you don't have to separate meat from dairy unless you are seeking to elevate your soul to a higher level.

I guess you get the idea...

What did Yeshua do in his day...During his time on earth was there separation of meat and dairy?

Since he is my Messiah and role model --In my heart I believe I should be doing everything he did.

Your responses, suggestions and recommendations are welcome

Shalom :help:

[The Thadman]

Hello. Today is my first visit to this forum and I am excited to throw out this question that has been burning for awhile. :confused: I have spoken to many Messianic Rabbi's and not one of them seems to agree on how to keep Kosher.

Some say follow Biblical Kosher according to Leviticus.

Others say follow all of the rules of Kashruth as do the traditional non Messianc (yet) Jews.

Others say you can mix meat and dairy because the chances of eating meat with milk from the mother is unlikely.

Others say you don't have to separate meat from dairy unless you are seeking to elevate your soul to a higher level.

I guess you get the idea...

What did Yeshua do in his day...During his time on earth was there separation of meat and dairy?

Since he is my Messiah and role model --In my heart I believe I should be doing everything he did.

Your responses, suggestions and recommendations are welcome

Shalom :help:

:wave: Welcome to Christian Forums' Messianic section! I hope you find it comfortable here :)



Unfortunately, there is no mention of the milk/meat issue in any Messianic texts.

Some can argue that he could have, and others could argue that he wouldn't have.

I personally believe that we should keep it as in Leviticus, and not worry about other, further rules, as Jesus preached out against the concept of oral traditions, instead preferring the use of the Torah as the sole source of his teaching.

We have varied viewpoints here, so I'm, sure a conversation will strike up in no time.

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Nora7]

Thank you...I appreciate your response...I can see from the postings that I'm not alone on this question. Sticky sticky...So far I have been following what Levitcus states. But alas, I'm one of those people that will not leave an issue alone until I find a definitive answer...It's out there somewhere.

[Sephania]

At this point I am considering the true meat/milk issue. At this point I do not believe that fish is meat, therefore I can have with cheese, or milk products such as cooked in butter. I do not believe that chicken is meat in this instance so I can eat chicken kiev for example. Now my problem is the interpretations of what is in Leviticus and what is the halacha on this. The mitzvot states you should not boil which is a specific way of cooking something. Not a way to eat something. So out goes the stroganoff! But what of a grilled hamburger with a piece of cheese melted on top? Different kinds of cooking, not to mention the burger comes from a beef cow and the cheese comes from a dairy or milking cow, so the chance of them being related is slim to none.

Then there is all the different pots and plates. As of now I am up in the air over this, I want to follow G-ds laws, but I also want to follow Him mosting and He said he wants the heart not the letter, and I believe that the heart of this law is compassion. I think that so many fences have been erected around this one little minor mitzvah that its hard to even get in to see what it was in the first place. I think that it is in line with not taking the mother bird along with the eggs from a nest, compassion.

Sacrifice of the heart, not animals.

Although in complete contradiction to this I and some friends of mine have been feeling lead to look into what it would take to open a Kosher resturant here where we live as there is none, which is surprising given the large Jewish popultion although we do have a Kashrus Commission located right here, go figure .

[Henaynei]

A kosher resturant would have to be *strictly* kosher - either a meat or a milk resturant and have a heksher that was accepted by that community.

In the home, synagogue - If I keep strictly and rabbinically kosher, then anyone who walks into my home can share the fellowship of the table with us. If, on the other hand, I pick and chose my way through the Jewish traditions on this matter I have chosen to deliberately exclude some people from my table.

We seperate milk and meat because it is tradition, it is Oral "Torah," it is another area of deliberate submission of my will to honor and obey G-d, and it is inclusive rather than exclusive .........

[JewishHeart]

I eat meat and milk together because I believe this passage of scripture is talking about a pagan ritual done during that time (cooking a kid in its mothers milk). I do not believe it was a kosher rule, rather saying 'dont do as the pagans do' with harsh cruelty towards animals. With respect for halacha, I agree with Thadman and say that it has no authority in my life other than what I discern is from the Spirit and what is not. Yeshua did rebuke the Pharisees saying their tradition broke the Torah. I love Torah and live according to Levitical kashrut. I like what Zayit said that its the Spirit and not the letter !!! This is the message of the New Covenant !!! The Spirit of the Torah and not the letter. I love obeying Torah, but the purpose is not to make sure the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, rather obedience to the Spirit of the law. This is why King Hezekiah celebrated Pesach at the wrong time and it was pleasing in the eyes of Hashem.

[D.W.]

Shalom

My house keeps a kosher kitchen , we have four sets of dishes, 2 for Sabbath and 2 for the week so that we can separate meat and dairy according to Halacha. I realize why the fence was built as most do, but not why it was built so wide. The commandment to not boil a kid in it’s mothers milk can have many meanings according to the way that one understands and accepts what the reading is saying. I myself lean towards the understanding that a kid that is still sucking , if boiled would definitely be boiled in it’s mothers milk. I still keep the Halacha because the Rabbis say so, and I do this because of a simple statement that Yeshua made concerning traditions.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

It says whatsoever not what you see in scripture or what you might think it means. My out look is that the Rabbis have spent their lives studying the scriptures and debating them so that when it becomes Halacha it is because they have turned the scripture every which way that they can so that they can finally come together in agreement before it ever becomes Halacha.

I believe as Henaynei does that I can have a open house for anyone to eat at my table and not be offended or have to worry about breaking this commandment.

G-d Bless,

Dan

[JewishHeart]

when i live in jerusalem i will also keep a meat/milk kosher kitchen for fellowship purposes, but not out of conviction

[simchat_torah]

I thought that the point of the halacha subforums was specifically not to discuss whether halacha is good or bad, but to discuss how to apply and interpret halacha.

[Sephania]

A kosher resturant would have to be *strictly* kosher - either a meat or a milk resturant and have a heksher that was accepted by that community.

In the home, synagogue - If I keep strictly and rabbinically kosher, then anyone who walks into my home can share the fellowship of the table with us. If, on the other hand, I pick and chose my way through the Jewish traditions on this matter I have chosen to deliberately exclude some people from my table.

We seperate milk and meat because it is tradition, it is Oral "Torah," it is another area of deliberate submission of my will to honor and obey G-d, and it is inclusive rather than exclusive .........
How does one stamp a plate of food? If you mean a certification from the local commision then I understand. I also understand that it would have to be stricktly kosher. Two of everything! :) We are hoping for a place where Messianics ( who are at all stages ) and Orthodox and any other practicing Kosher can come together on an even plane and enjoy a meal together, a way to remove walls if you know what I mean.

[Henaynei]

How does one stamp a plate of food? If you mean a certification from the local commision then I understand. I also understand that it would have to be stricktly kosher. Two of everything! :) We are hoping for a place where Messianics ( who are at all stages ) and Orthodox and any other practicing Kosher can come together on an even plane and enjoy a meal together, a way to remove walls if you know what I mean.
Yes, a heksher from a locally approved kashrut authority - for your establishment. Most (all) kosher resturants are *either* meat or dairy - the expense of doing it right enough to pass a kosher inspection is ENORMOUS!!! You would have to have seperate kitchens and the wait staff would have to be VERY familar with kashrut - and no one could eat dairy at the same table where meat was being eaten - or on a table where meat *had* been eaten - without changing out *everything* on the table.... and vis versa.

It is MUCH more feasible to be either Milk OR Meat ;) The orthodox likely would not come to a "mixed" (milk & meat) resturant ;)

It sounds like a GREAT idea!! Is the observant Jewish community large enough in your area to support sucha a venture?? (non-observant Jews and gentiles are not too quick to pay kosher prices ;) )

[Aronbengilad]

In observing kashrut it should be like we observe all the Torah and mitzvot in freedom, simplicity, love and joy. Do not bind heavy burdens on the poor. The passage in the Written Torah about not eating a kid boiled in its mother's meat is interpreted at a deeper level that is revealed in the Oral Torah. Why not trust Hashem that he knows best that milk and meat are not good for our digestion. Also the rules of kashrut are a means of refining us to not be glutton's and be measured in our eating. It is also teaching us to sacrifice our own wills to the Divine Will. Let us seek to live each day in the Divine Will (Ratzon) and then our level of Torah observance will become clear.

[Sephania]

Henaynei, I believe that the population is adequate and are probably looking for someplace close by. I am wondering how Kosher delis do it though that sell pastrami on rye sandwiches and also cheescake? I love dairy but think that a meat would be more appreciated as that is harder to find.There are three supermarkets within 3 miles of where I live and all have extensive kosher areas, one contains its own deli as well, so I know if this can be supported, those that want to eat out can find a place. There are six ( that I know of) synagogues in town, not all orthodox mind you but that doesn't mean everything,some that are conservative would not be observant and would be potential customers as well I would suppose.

[Henaynei]

Henaynei, I believe that the population is adequate and are probably looking for someplace close by. I am wondering how Kosher delis do it though that sell pastrami on rye sandwiches and also cheescake? I love dairy but think that a meat would be more appreciated as that is harder to find.There are three supermarkets within 3 miles of where I live and all have extensive kosher areas, one contains its own deli as well, so I know if this can be supported, those that want to eat out can find a place. There are six ( that I know of) synagogues in town, not all orthodox mind you but that doesn't mean everything,some that are conservative would not be observant and would be potential customers as well I would suppose.
Shalom Zayit,

Generally those are "kosher-style" Delis, but go and ask them :), maybe not ;). IF you have both milk and meat you HAVE to have 2 kitchens, etc - even 2 separate staff. While this is not required in one's home it is required in a merchant establishment. YOur busiest times are going to be during Rosh HaShanah - and you will probably have to close on Pesakh as the act and cost of converting from chametz to halakic chametz-free and back again is very large - most places like a diner close.