mothers milk

[Buccaneer]

Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
People try to pass this off as saying now cow or goat etc should ever be eaten with milk. But, if you look at this text literally, it only forbids the combining of the literal mothers milk with her dead offspring.
Any thoughts? corrections?

[simchat_torah]

There used to be an ancient pagan pactice of boiling a young calf in its mother's milk... well, technically a 'kid' which is a baby goat.

However, there are numerous health benefits to not mixing dairy and meat, specifically the types of bacteria that grow in each, while harmless on their own, can produce deadly strains while combined.

I could equally argue either side, and in my mind, the jury is still out on this one.

shalom,
yafet

[Buccaneer]

Yes, but really, regardless of health issues, if one should consume say a pizza with hamburger upon it or lasagnia or any such combination as a cheeseberger, it should not actually oppose the law?

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHVH your ELOHIYM which I command you." Dueteronomy 4:2

I ask that this is not seen as a debate and given negatively as another thread of mine was. I question because questioning is the only way to identify the truth and thats all I care about: Not philosophy or tradition, but truth. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
-Yeshua

[simchat_torah]

Before I continue, I see that you have the christian icon selected... which means you don't follow torah anyway. So why are you so concerned with how to interpret a single mitzvah?

[Buccaneer]

I have it selected because it is the icon for NONDENOMINAL. I do not cuurently align myself with any organization because I find flaws in them all. I, regardless of what many may think, do try to keep the old convenant ways in harmony with the new. If it corresponds with Yeshua, then I will keep it. I ry to correct my own error. You see that I do not use the name Jesus as I was taught. That is one example. i wish you would relinquish titles and labels as we are all one in messiah. I want to be as close to perfect in all my ways as I can. I am not jew by birth, but if I can become one by spirit and if it is Gods will, I will.

[simchat_torah]

Buccaneer,

It boils down to this: What is your view of the Beit Din.

In the Torah, G-d instituted the Beit Din to create Halacha. He promised His Ruach would guide them. He stated that their words would be as though He himself spoke to us as a community and that what they say is binding. They were given the authority to make rulings on how the mitzvot (commandments) were to be followed as a community.

Do you believe the current Orthodox Beit Din is what HaShem set up?
Do you believe that the Beit Din must necessarily be Messianic?
Do you believe that we have the right to go against the Beit Din?
Are we obligated to follow them as G-d commanded?
Do we set up our own Beit Din?
Who has the authority to set up a Beit Din?

This line of questions continues on for awhile. But you can't simply answer the meat and dairy question until you have turned to face the issue of a Beit Din. Then, you will know how to apply halacha to the mitzvot.

shalom,
yafet

[Buccaneer]

I do not even know what belt din even is. I remember that ruach means spirit right? I have to research the beit din subject because im a learning progress and I dont know hebrew so I came here in the meantime. I will have to learn about this to answer you.

[simchat_torah]

I believe if you click on my profile and search the topics I have started, there should be one very good discussion on the Beit Din. The Beit Din is what you might know as the Sanhedrin. They are the "court of law" that creates halacha.

[simchat_torah]

and yes, Ruach is Spirit.

Ruach HaKodesh is, literally, "The Spirit of holiness" (well, plural really... spirits of holiness)...

aka: the holy spirit.


shalom,
yafet

[Buccaneer]

Okay I know now and I say, that I do not say yes or no. It depends. The beit din can be compared to the pharisees in Yeshua's time possibly (not that im saying they are corrupted like back then) Im not trying to demonize them nor call them great, but i just dont know. If they speek what God says then they are right.

[simchat_torah]

There was actually more than one Beit Din during the days of Y'shua. One was secular, one operated over the Temple... there was also the an Essenic Beit Din, and then in acts 15 we see the messianic beit din.

:)

[simchat_torah]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Y'shua can be compared to the Prushim (pharisees) theologically. He really only differed from them in two issues:

1) oral law over riding the written law
2) hypocracy

But, ideally, most of his theology was remeniscent of the Prushim.

shalom,
yafet

[Buccaneer]

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

[The Thadman]

Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
People try to pass this off as saying now cow or goat etc should ever be eaten with milk. But, if you look at this text literally, it only forbids the combining of the literal mothers milk with her dead offspring.
Any thoughts? corrections?

Ok, the Karaite's gotta take a swing at it ;)

There are three issues that I think must be addressed:

#1) The Authority of the Beit Din.
#2) The idea of halacha.
#3) How it applies to this Law of kosher, Biblically.

#1) The Authority of the Beit Din

According to the Torah, the Beit Din only had authority over over enforcing the Torah, and some circumstantial regulations over one thing:

Deuteronomy 17
8 If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within your gates; then shall you arise, and go up to the place which YHWH your God shall choose;
9 and you shall come to the priests the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days: and you shall inquire; and they shall show you the sentence of judgment.

A matter too hard for you in judgement between blood and blood, plea and plea, stroke (literally stripe, as in a wound) and stroke: These were retaliatory issues whose results had to be in line with the Torah (v11). Every instance in the Torah where Judges were called upon for further knowledge this is what they were allowed to make rulings over, in order to prevent people from taking justice into their own hands. (v12)

The average person was responsible for upholding the Torah on their own. If the judgment was easy to make (i.e. it's the Sabbath, no working today) the Judges were not necessary. They were there for settling disputes.

So in this light, a House of Judges should be fully reliant upon the Torah alone, as it is outlined in the Torah.

#2) The idea of halacha.

As such, I feel that the current paradigm of a Beit Din as an oral-lawmaking institution is misleading. We already have the Law: The Torah as handed down to Moses. What Laws do we need other than Torah? It was not until the time of the Book of Ezra that we even see hints of "Proto-Halacha" which are nothing like the halacha of today some thousands of years later which are made up of hundreds of differing arguments and opinions, none of which bear something as simple as a "Thus says YHWH:...." They, in and of themselves, are man's wisdom, not divinely dictated, but argued over and never agreed upon. :)

#3) How it applies to this Law of kosher, Biblically.

Given that halacha is the word of man, and Torah is the Word of God, and that we are not to add or subtract from the Word of God, eating a beef cheeseburger cannot be a sin. There is also a passage in Genesis 18 where Abraham and God ate meat and butter together, waiting for Sarah to make them cakes. On this, the scripture is clear, where the rabbim cannot agree upon on how long one should wait 15 minutes, 1 or 5 hours before partaking of milk before one can have meat. (But it baffles me that they both go to the same place and will mingle there if one does not wait at least 24 hours). :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[simchat_torah]

aye.

[Buccaneer]

Thanks, Thadman.

[simchat_torah]

As such, I feel that the current paradigm of a Beit Din as an oral-lawmaking institution is misleading. We already have the Law: The Torah as handed down to Moses
Halacha was never intended to be added to, or replace, the mitzvot in the torah. Rather, halacha was intended to interpret how to apply those mitzvot.

How do you keep from working on shabbat is an excellent example. Halacha should not create something that makes us actually do any work, but should DEFINE what work is that we must keep from doing during this holy day.

Given that halacha is the word of man, and Torah is the Word of God, and that we are not to add or subtract from the Word of God...
This is the very basis of the flawed type of thinking in Karaite Judaism. Again, Halacha is to define how we apply the mitzvot, not create new ones. Halacha is not intended to become a law unto itself or to replace the Torah mitzvot. (no adding or subtracting)

On a second note, we are told that the words the Beit Din speaks are binding... as though G-d himself spoke them. I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the Karaite position.

eating a beef cheeseburger cannot be a sin
Here you see a perfect foundational misunderstanding. Breaking halacha is never implied sin in Judaism. Breaking a mitzvah from the Torah... is.

There is also a passage in Genesis 18 where Abraham and God ate meat and butter together, waiting for Sarah to make them cakes. On this, the scripture is clear, where the rabbim cannot agree upon on how long one should wait 15 minutes, 1 or 5 hours before partaking of milk before one can have meat. (But it baffles me that they both go to the same place and will mingle there if one does not wait at least 24 hours)
This is one perfect example of one of the many ways that I think the current Beit Din is stretching things a bit.

However, I also see the beauty in the teaching behind it as well...
No mixing of life and death. Dairy being life and the meat itself representing death... we are not to mix life and death.

My biggest problem with the way the Halacha is carried out today is:
Blessed are you oh L-rd our G-d, King of the universe[/b] who commanded us to...[/b]
No where did he explicitly "command" (or 'sanctify') us to do many of the halachic traditions (ie: lighting of the shabbat candles). To me, that's adding to...

Then again, the Rabbis state this is because when the Beit Din makes a ruling, G-d promised his spirit would be with them and their rulings would be binding as if G-d himself commanded them.

I'm still "out" on this one, and I'm not ready to demonize the Rabbis just yet. They have thousands of years of wisedom on their side, and I have to compete with that when viewing such traditions.

Shalom,
yafet

[The Thadman]

[/font]
Halacha was never intended to be added to, or replace, the mitzvot in the torah. Rather, halacha was intended to interpret how to apply those mitzvot.

But it was how to apply the mitzvot that Jesus was all up in arms about, akhi :) Yadayim and divorce are perfect examples of where halacha has gone too far beyond and has profaned the Torah respectively.

How do you keep from working on shabbat is an excellent example. Halacha should not create something that makes us actually do any work, but should DEFINE what work is that we must keep from doing during this holy day.

I never thought of it as a problem. If it's work, you stop doing it. I could never understand how someone could get hung up over this idea. :)

This is the very basis of the flawed type of thinking in Karaite Judaism. Again, Halacha is to define how we apply the mitzvot, not create new ones. Halacha is not intended to become a law unto itself or to replace the Torah mitzvot. (no adding or subtracting)

But Yeshu` has shown that misapplication of the Torah is transgressing it. :)

The same with the strange incense that was burned (Lev 10). It's a nice extra thing to do to further please our Lord, but Aaron's sons DIED before YHWH because of it.

On a second note, we are told that the words the Beit Din speaks are binding... as though G-d himself spoke them. I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the Karaite position.

I've never seen this before as something that has to be "reconciled." What needs to be reconciled?

Here you see a perfect foundational misunderstanding. Breaking halacha is never implied sin in Judaism. Breaking a mitzvah from the Torah... is.

But if I were to stroll into the Chabad house munching on a buffalo chicken pizza, they'd box my nose. :)

... Ok, well maybe not box my nose (it would be like sneezing during an Episcopal service: people turn around and stare at you (true story, I was raised Episcopal)).

Now I must ask the question: In your congregation what "penalties" are there for breaking halacha? Does one need to repent?

This is one perfect example of one of the many ways that I think the current Beit Din is stretching things a bit.

Agreed, only except I do not see a currently instated Beit Din. Moses' seat fell with the Temple, and currently that seat is vacant.

No where did he explicitly "command" (or 'sanctify') us to do many of the halachic traditions (ie: lighting of the shabbat candles). To me, that's adding to...

Then again, the Rabbis state this is because when the Beit Din makes a ruling, G-d promised his spirit would be with them and their rulings would be binding as if G-d himself commanded them.

Where is this verse in Torah that we may all examine it?


I'm still "out" on this one, and I'm not ready to demonize the Rabbis just yet. They have thousands of years of wisedom on their side, and I have to compete with that when viewing such traditions.

Could never demonize the Rabbim. They're trying to get to God, too, just like non-Messianic Christians. It doesn't mean that we all have to agree with them ;)

Peace, akhi!
-Steve-o

[Henaynei]

This thread has taken on a definate Halakah focus and will find a welcome home in the Halakah subforum - and has now been moved there ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator

[The Thadman]

This thread has taken on a definate Halakah focus and will find a welcome home in the Halakah subforum - and has now been moved there ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator

Good call akhthi :-)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Sephania]

oK, I was going to post to this but I remember reading in another thread in this forum that this was only to discuss how one should follow halacha, not if one should or not. Correct me if i am wrong but isn't that what is transpiring here?]

So until this is defined furthur and I know what I can legally post here ( pun intented) I will just comment on this:


The same with the strange incense that was burned (Lev 10). It's a nice extra thing to do to further please our Lord, but Aaron's sons DIED before YHWH because of it.


I am not sure what
"extra thing" you are referring to Steve, what they did was to do something that they thought was OK, not what Adonai had ordered. Incense was to be burned by the High Priest only, their father Aaron was still alive therefore they were usurping His G-d given duty. It was strange because it was not "Authorized". This was not something to be interpreted, it was clear, and disobedience brought death. See Exodus 30

I think in light of the conversation so far that may carry a heavy meaning to some.

:)

[Henaynei]

Zayit does have a point - this discussion has travelled far afield from the OP. Discussion of IF one should follow Halakah is for the general forum. Discussion of HOW to follow Halaksh is for this forum.

May I suggest that if you are "into" a Karaite vs Rabbinic discussion it take place in the General forum?? Please ;)

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator