How do we truly know that Jesus was God?

[Anti-Fear]

Ok, first of all let me say I am not making this post to bash Chrstianity and Jesus , because I do believe in him.
I am sure he was speaking from God as a man.
What puzzles me is that the only instance he confirms that he is God is when gentiles ask him if hes God on the cross, and he responds it is as you say. Is that the only way we know he is God? or is ressurection another reason?
What if Jesus didnt think of himself as God but was kind of like speaker of God , connected to God, but not actual God? I mean, when some non-Christian friends of mine ask me what can I answer them?

[Foundthelight]

Hope this helps.

Jn 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Jn 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

Jn 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Jn 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Jn 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jn 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

[Larry]

John 1:1-14

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

[thaiv]

Watchman Nee had an awesome response to this. I will post it seperately later.

[Larry]

Watchman Nee had an awesome response to this. I will post it seperately later.


I don't think it gets any clearer than what John said in chapter 1, verses 1 to 14. ;)

[thaiv]

I don't think it gets any clearer than what John said in chapter 1, verses 1 to 14. ;)

You are absolutely right Larry. Hebrews 1:8 is also proof that Jesus was God. There is proof throughout the whole Bible. With the help of Watchman Nee I will expound on this in a different thread, because some people cannot even take the Bible as proof.

[Anti-Fear]

Watchman Nee had an awesome response to this. I will post it seperately later.
Watchman Nee? Wasnt the the founder of what (began as a good group) turned into a cult now? I went to some of their meetings, and let me tell you, these people are not normal.

[Anti-Fear]

Thanks for those passages Foundthelight, I should have known about them, but I didnt.

[thaiv]

Watchman Nee? Wasnt the the founder of what (began as a good group) turned into a cult now? I went to some of their meetings, and let me tell you, these people are not normal.

What makes them a "cult"?

They believe that God is one, yet triune.

They believe that Jesus Christ is both human and divine.

They believe that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sins is saved and is part of the church.

Isn't a "cult" a group of people who do not acknowledge one of the above points?

[Foundthelight]

Watchman Nee was a Chinese national who converted to Christianity and became a missionary to his people.

From www.watchmannee.com (http://www.watchmannee.com)


Watchman Nee became a Christian in mainland China in 1920 at the age of seventeen and began writing in the same year. Throughout the nearly thirty years of his ministry, Watchman Nee was clearly manifested as a unique gift from the Lord to His Body for His move in this age. In 1952 he was imprisoned for his faith; he remained in prison until his death in 1972. His words remain an abundant source of spiritual revelation and supply to Christians throughout the world.
Please do not confuse him with the Watchtower organization.

[Anti-Fear]

No, guys, I dont think you're aware of some things. First of all he is a founder of the movement called LOCAL CHURCH, or also REcovery Ministries. This group believes that they are the only one true church, that ALL denominations that exist out there are wrong because they break up the body of the Church, the body of Christ.

According to some websites I read, they're a cult because they believe salvation is only possible within their group, and not any other protestant denomination or catholic church.

They follow writings of Watchman Nee or Witness Lee in their doctrine, rather than interpreting the Bible themselves.

They printed their own version of the Bible called Recover Version, its full of "footnotes" which they read for references. Many believe these footnotes are interpretations of the Bible of the footnote writer.

These are main reasons why this group is a cult, there are some other.

If you would like to learn more search on google for "Local Church Cult"

[thaiv]

calmius,

Nothing you stated that is true makes this group a "cult" as it is defined by theologians.

Points to consider:

1.The church.

They meet as the church in their respective cities. According to the Bible, that is how the church is addressed (Acts 8:1;13:1). Although they do beleive this is the proper expression of the Body of Christ, they do not in any way say salvation is exclusive to their group. If you can reference from their writings otherwise, please tell me. They do beleive that denominations divide the Body of Christ. It should be noted that many non-denominational groups believe this as well. This is a quote from www.local-church.org:

"We are Christians who have personally received Jesus Christ as our Savior. He has won our hearts and we love Him. The believers meeting as the local church rejoice to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus, God’s Son, born again of the Father’s divine life, and filled with the Holy Spirit. The local church treasures the Holy Scriptures as the Word of God and holds the common faith revealed in it. As is true of all believers in Christ, we are members of His one Body, the church." Clearly what you said misrepresents the "local church."


2. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee

They do read their writings alot to understand God's Word. Whether you are aware or not, many other Christians read their writings as well. Many Christians inside the "local church" read D.L Moody, A.B. Simpson, Sparks, Darby, Andrew Murray, Pember, and many more to get help on the Scripture. In fact Lee quotes from these authors frequently in his writings. Although they usually read more from Lee and Nee, they do read from the authors mentioned above. Since when was it wrong to read Christian books by various authors to understand the Bible? Their index of websites, www.christianwebsites.org, contain many biographies from spiritual leaders of the past besides Lee and Nee. To say that they do not interpret the Bible themselves is a poor generalization. Many of them find new things in God's Word.

3. Recovery Version of the Holy Bible

What is wrong with printing a version of the Bible? What is wrong with footnotes that help explain God's Word? The Scofield Bible has footnotes all over it. I went to a Christian book store a few months back and their were many study Bibles with footnotes that are not Recovery Version.

4. Cult

A cult is a slanderous word that contains many negative connotations and should be used carefully. To call a group a cult because of the above reasons is illogical, considering that those reasons possess false remarks.

A cult of Christianity denies one or more of the following points:

The triune nature of God.
Christ's dual nature-God and man.
Every believer in Christ is part of the Body of Christ regardless of where they meet.
Salvation is for everyone.

5. The Internet

One of the beauties of the internet is that anyone can put whatever they want, within the law, on a website. This means that lies, misunderstandings, and misrepresentations can be found on it with ease. To simply draw information from a few websites is unscholarly. The only way to know the truth about a certain group is to read their writings and test its validity. I would encourage you to view some of the websites under www.christianwebsites.org, which is the "local church" index of websites. Then tell me what you think.

[Anti-Fear]

Well according to some summit of theology, either USA only or USA+Europe organization the ways Local Church uses makes it a cult.

Those reasons I listed are precisely the reasons its considered a cult, because its fits theological definition of a cult. You can agree or not its up to you.

There is nothing wrong with reading Bible study books with notes. HOWEVER, Local Church members use exclusively the recovery version and you know that. That is the problem, not htat it has footnotes, but that it is a book that is used exclusively.

Another aspect that makes Local Church a cult is that it is actively seeking members. That is one of the biggest reasons. Other churches do not actively seek members. They may preach the Bible, and word of Jesus Christ without associating with themselves. Local church on the other hand actively recruits members for their church.

Perhaps I am wrong about what I said that Local Church doesnt beleive that salvation can be reached outside of them, but that is what I read on the internet, AND heard from my friends who went there, AND from members of it themselves. I actually did go to its meetings.

They encourage anyone who goes to their bible study to get re-baptized within their church.

[thereselittleflower]

hi Calmuis . . I hope I can interject here and share a little information . .

Witness Lee is really the one who took off with the Home Church movement . . He was Watchman Nee's coworker . .

It is my understanding that what you see today is more the result of Witness Lee's leadership than anyone else . .


Peace in Him!

[thaiv]

calmius,

The reasons you gave, if true, would in fact possibly qualify this group as a cult. The problem is that alot of it is simply false. Please do not think I am trying to argue here, I am just presenting something to you to try to clear up some confusion.

Recovery Version

The Recovery Version is used mostly by the "local church" because they are the ones that published it. They also read translations such as KJV, NIV, ASV, and Darby when looking up how others translate something. The preference is for the Recovery Version, but they do use these versions too. (Remember many churches have a preferred version such as KJV or NIV.) I have also heard of other Christians outside the "local church" that enjoy reading the Recovery Version. Although not as many outside the "local church" read it, the fact remains that it is read outside by some. I have seen the Recovery Version at a Christian bookstore as well. You presented some points, but you did not point out why the Recovery Version is erroneous.

"Recruiting members"

Most churches do want increase. I do not see why this would be a reason a church is a cult.

Exclusive Salvation

Remember that anyone can post anything they want on the internet whether it is valid or not. People outside the "local church" may have misunderstood something that was said, and those inside were probably confused if they said it. The reason I said "confused" is because in the "local church" writings and meetings they always say that the Body of Christ includes all beleivers, so it would not make sense if they said the opposite. I have never heard someone inside the "local church" say salvation is exclusive to them. If they did, they are wrong, and their statements do not reflect the majority in the "local church." They do say denominational systems are wrong but they do not break their bridges between other fellow Christians.

Re-baptized

They actually do not encourage this. It is up to the person.

The Opposers' Strategy

The strategy I have seen on the interent when people oppose the "local church" is they usually take words out of context and twist the meaning to mean almost the opposite. They also mix words the "local church" said in a different context to prove their point. They present half-truths to those who read their site. That is worse than straight up false information. Please read Nee/Lee writings to see the other side of the story.

Be like a Judge

Take this as if this is a case and you are the judge. You have some information from one side that opposes the "local church." A judge should never look at only one side. Look at the "local church" stand point and read some of their websites and writings. After gathering an adequate amount of information, you should then make an unbiased judgement on which side is correct.

[Buccaneer]

when gentiles ask him if hes God on the cross, and he responds it is as you say.

Do you have a verse for that? Unless yer talking about when pilate asked him if he was the king of the jews which in itself is not quite as definative as asking if he was God.

[TerryR]

I personally love to listen to Watchman Nee's sermons on , his words have really in-riched my life. I don't know about Witness Lee. It seems he got a little nutty after Nee died and he branched out on his own.

In His Grip,

Terry

[thaiv]

TerryR,

I encourage you to read some of Witness Lee. I am sure his speaking and writings will impress you as Watchman Nee did. You can read both of their books online at www.ministrybooks.org.