Am i going to hell? [Archive]

IamRedeemed

9th February 2008, 08:44 AM

The "Bible" is the source of the information. Christians are not "blindly following". With the information, that we, a fallen creature made in the image of God, with the purpose of having a relationship with God, (by Him and for Him was everything created) John 1:1-3, John 1:14) understanding that our fallen state separates us from that relationship we were created to have with God and that the shed blood of Jesus (who is God who loved us that much) gives us the door in which to be reconciled unto God is the information. It is what is done with that information that will either bring you to the saving knowledge of Christ, where you will come to know Him and develop a relationship with Him, therefore is not a "blind following", it is rather your faith having by then been manifested and Jesus is now known to you, or whether you choose to reject the information and pass on the saving knowledge of Christ and perish. The relationship with God starts with faith yes, but it doesn't finish there.

I am an agnostic...I don't reject the idea of a Christian God, but I also don't accept it. I don't see any reason to believe the bible over any other holy book.

Why are some people able to have unquestioning faith, while others (such as myself) are unable to blindly trust a book?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 01:57 PM

But how do you know to trust the word of Jesus? I know alot of people have probably asked you this same

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 01:58 PM

question... (sorry, browser messed up).

Anyways, why trust the word of Jesus over the word of any other prophet? I mean, it's unlikely that Jesus directly spoke to you. So, why place your faith in in the Holy Bible, rather than the Qur'an?

desmalia

9th February 2008, 02:38 PM

Do you have any desire to know who Jesus is? If so, may I ask why?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 02:47 PM

I would like to know. I have been doing alot of research about different world faiths, and the stories of the lives of each prophet are all absolutely amazing.

Which makes we wonder: why do Christians believe that Jesus was any more divine than say, Muhammed, or Buddha, or Krishna, or any other "holy" prophet.

You also asked me, why do I want to know Jesus. Well, I should be honest. It isn't because I want to be "saved." Rather, I would like to know the truth. If I happen to be saved in the process, then that is fine. If not, then so be it. I guess I would join the billions of other non-christians too.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, or rude, or dismissive of your beliefs. I just want to know why you chose Jesus.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 02:53 PM

Thank you for taking the time to answer in a little more detail.

So basically you are seeking greater knowledge for your own benifit?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 02:58 PM

I guess you could see it as that, but I wouldnt say it is ONLY for my own benefit. Wisdom benefits everyone, not simply the wise. If I became wiser (which, I admit, wouldnt be hard), I would hope to influence those around me too.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 03:05 PM

And what makes you deserving of this wisdom?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 03:09 PM

What makes anyone not deserving of wisdom?

desmalia

9th February 2008, 03:16 PM

But all do not all have wisdom, right?
Let's say, for example, that really knowing Christ is having the highest kind of wisdom. Yet, most don't know Him. Do we all inherantly possess this wisdom? (Doesn't seem so, does it?) Is it possible that we must do something to gain the right to have it? And even before considering that, does everyone even want it to begin with?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 03:23 PM

Well, I should first point out that your situation should be taken hypothetically. I wouldn't say that knowing Christ is the highest kind of wisdom. I would say knowing Truth is. Whether that truth be the truth of any prophet.

Secondly, clearly, not everybody wants wisdom. But those that do should not be deprived of it. Wouldn't you say?

Thirdly, no, we must not do something to gain the right to have wisdom. The right to have wisdom is free will, and we all have it. We must do something to attain wisdom though - work towards it. Wouldn't you agree?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 03:24 PM

I am not immediately discounting belief in Christ. I am saying that true wisdom would be the ability to distinguish what is right/good from what is wrong. How can you say that the word of Jesus is any more truthful/good than the word of any other prophet?

desmalia

9th February 2008, 03:32 PM

Just so I understand, do you approach this conversation with the assumptions that:

a) all of humanity is basically good and deserving of all wisdom
and
b) free will includes the ability to choose absolutely anything?

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 03:37 PM

NewGuy101

9th February 2008, 03:56 PM

anonymous, there is a lot of evidence that strongly supports the Christian position however you will never accept Christ as your Lord and Savior until you realize you are a sinner.

Have you ever wondered why there is so much evil in the world? Why the things you do want to do, you cannot do and the things you do wanna do you cannot do? (being a good person in the world) It's because each human is evil and in a fallen state. You NEED Christ to regenerate you!

NewGuy101

9th February 2008, 03:58 PM

I approach this conversation with the assumptions that:

a) all of humanity is entitled to attain wisdom, if they so choose to.
b) free will includes the ability to choose to believe anything one wants to

btw your assumpotions are incorrect, since human beings will believe a number of things based on a number of factors they cannot control such as place of birth, brain capacity, living conditions and access to education.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 04:02 PM

Again, thank you for clarifying.

I'm not sure you're going to get the exact answer you hoped for here. But I will try to share where I am coming from. It may or may not give you some of what you are looking for.

The basic human instinct that we all live by is to meet our own personal needs (be it food and shelter, comfort, knowledge, love, etc.). Not that those needs or wants are “bad”. But they are for our own gain, and that is all. That may for some (even many) extend to at least some desire to reach out to the world around us in a form of community as well. But it is not for the purpose of serving or giving praise to the One who created us. It’s not even for the purpose of knowing Him either. It’s simple human drive. It’s all we know. We are the masters of our own universes.

But consider (for the sake of this discussion) the possibility that God is who He says He is in the Bible. If so, He is perfect, holy, just, the beginning and the end, powerful and mighty, the creator of everything in the entire universe, he is peace, love, he is the ultimate source of all that is good.

And who are we, the created? Selfish people going about our business for our own gain and sometimes for the gain of people we care about. But not with any concern for the One who made us. Why? Because without His own divine working in our hearts, we are incapable of it. We are engulfed in our own lives, and not able to really “look up”. Even seeking to “know who He” is can be simply for that same old personal gain. It’s not nearly as altruistic as it sounds unless it is in answer to a divine call to live and die for Him instead of ourselves. The Christian life flies in the face of what natural man seeks. It demands everything of us. It shows us our true place in the universe next to such an incredible, amazing God. (And His amazing grace and mercy to us despite that!) It humbles us and causes us to desire to seek after His ways and His nature, not for our gain, but for His glory. Being faced with a perfect, holy God sheds light on the utterly depraved existence we lead. That is where wisdom begins. And I believe it is a gift that is not inherantly part of what we know as human free will. It's above even that.

I’m not trying to discourage you from trying to understand who Christ is. Far from it. But I do urge you to consider what you just might find in that search. Examine yourself and see if you are really so deserving of this wisdom you seek. I know I’m not. It is a gift of great mercy – a pearl of great price.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:06 PM

btw your assumpotions are incorrect, since human beings will believe a number of things based on a number of factors they cannot control such as place of birth, brain capacity, living conditions and access to education.
Sure. I said they can believe anything they want to. Not control where they were born, or choose to be anything they want. And I'm also not saying that free will includes the ability to forget their past.

Free will means that a person can choose to believe in any Faith they wish, follow any tradition they choose, and support any cause they deem appropriate.

Now, that is not to say that they can't be wrong. It also doesn't mean that they SHOULD choose any tradition/belief they want. What I'm saying, is that it is POSSIBLE that they can. Hence, free will.

Now that we have our assumptions cleared up, shall we continue?

NewGuy101

9th February 2008, 04:11 PM

Sure. I said they can believe anything they want to. Not control where they were born, or choose to be anything they want. And I'm also not saying that free will includes the ability to forget their past.

Free will means that a person can choose to believe in any Faith they wish, follow any tradition they choose, and support any cause they deem appropriate.

Now, that is not to say that they can't be wrong. It also doesn't mean that they SHOULD choose any tradition/belief they want. What I'm saying, is that it is POSSIBLE that they can. Hence, free will.

Now that we have our assumptions cleared up, shall we continue?
Excellent, please do so.

But let me tell you my assumptions while we are ahead. I believe the bible is God's inerrant WORD and is the only authoritative means of truth.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:15 PM

As I was making my last post, I guess you posted as well desmalia.

YES! Thank you! I really appreciate the time you took in formulating your answer. And i truly appreciate your point of view.

Human nature IS selfish. We ARE masters of our own universes. And I agree...our purpose in life is to improve ourselves, and transcend our selfish nature.

However, that idea is not unique to Christianity. Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism, Islam, and the Bahai Faith (among many, many other religious traditions) teach the same underlying principles. We are selfish, but we have the capacity to change. We ARE insignificant in the grand scheme of things, especially next to God, and as such, we must become humble.

But as I said, many many religious traditions teach the same set of virtues. The underlying message is the same throughout every major religion, independent of the small details recorded in each holy book. So how does one choose a specific religion, and renounce the truth-claims of others?

I'm not certain one can...

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:16 PM

You see NewGuy 101, the purpose of this thread is to uncover WHY you believe the bible is God's innerant word.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 04:16 PM

Sure. I said they can believe anything they want to. Not control where they were born, or choose to be anything they want. And I'm also not saying that free will includes the ability to forget their past.

Free will means that a person can choose to believe in any Faith they wish, follow any tradition they choose, and support any cause they deem appropriate.

Now, that is not to say that they can't be wrong. It also doesn't mean that they SHOULD choose any tradition/belief they want. What I'm saying, is that it is POSSIBLE that they can. Hence, free will.

Now that we have our assumptions cleared up, shall we continue?

But Newguy does have a good point that should not be quickly dismissed. Free will does not exist outside of the influences of our lives, cultures, upbringings, etc. All of these things play a factor in basic human wisdom and worldview.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:17 PM

Definitely. I fully agree. We are all shaped, to some extent, by our upbringing, our culture, our societal status, and the circumstances of our lives

desmalia

9th February 2008, 04:22 PM

mama3hmscool

9th February 2008, 04:28 PM

I am an agnostic...I don't reject the idea of a Christian God, but I also don't accept it. I don't see any reason to believe the bible over any other holy book.

Why are some people able to have unquestioning faith, while others (such as myself) are unable to blindly trust a book?

But how do you know to trust the word of Jesus? I know alot of people have probably asked you this same

But all do not all have wisdom, right?
Let's say, for example, that really knowing Christ is having the highest kind of wisdom. Yet, most don't know Him. Do we all inherantly possess this wisdom? (Doesn't seem so, does it?) Is it possible that we must do something to gain the right to have it? And even before considering that, does everyone even want it to begin with?

I am not immediately discounting belief in Christ. I am saying that true wisdom would be the ability to distinguish what is right/good from what is wrong. How can you say that the word of Jesus is any more truthful/good than the word of any other prophet?

As I was making my last post, I guess you posted as well desmalia.

YES! Thank you! I really appreciate the time you took in formulating your answer. And i truly appreciate your point of view.

Human nature IS selfish. We ARE masters of our own universes. And I agree...our purpose in life is to improve ourselves, and transcend our selfish nature.

However, that idea is not unique to Christianity. Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism, Islam, and the Bahai Faith (among many, many other religious traditions) teach the same underlying principles. We are selfish, but we have the capacity to change. We ARE insignificant in the grand scheme of things, especially next to God, and as such, we must become humble.

But as I said, many many religious traditions teach the same set of virtues. The underlying message is the same throughout every major religion, independent of the small details recorded in each holy book. So how does one choose a specific religion, and renounce the truth-claims of others?

I'm not certain one can...

There are many books written by a man who once was an atheist, have you read any of the following?
"The Case for Faith" or "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:32 PM

Ok, lets break this into two parts (since I don't know how to quote on this forum properly, I'll just copy and paste :P)

1) "You see, we are not capable of change on our own, no matter how good the intentions."

I agree. We need guidance from a Teacher.

2) Only Chirst has the power to make us into creatures that are worthy of being in His presence

I don't see the logic. We have the capacity to change, because the bible says that Christ allows us to?

The fact that Christ SAID he was the way is not to the point at all.

Why do you trust that Jesus was telling the truth? Or phrased in another way (and probably less abrasive way), why do you assume that because Jesus said so, he is correct? Muhammad and Lao-Tzu (just as a few examples) also claimed to have the key to changing our nature.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 04:39 PM

There are many books written by a man who once was an atheist, have you read any of the following?
"The Case for Faith" or "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.
I have not read either of those two books. Do they make a case for why to choose Christianity over other religions?

mama3hmscool

9th February 2008, 04:44 PM

Ok, lets break this into two parts (since I don't know how to quote on this forum properly, I'll just copy and paste :P)

1) "You see, we are not capable of change on our own, no matter how good the intentions."

I agree. We need guidance from a Teacher. Divine Intervention

2) Only Chirst has the power to make us into creatures that are worthy of being in His presence

I don't see the logic. We have the capacity to change, because the bible says that Christ allows us to?

The fact that Christ SAID he was the way is not to the point at all. You must be born again, not giving in to things of the flesh. And change is a long road of maturation, not an instant overnight change.

Why do you trust that Jesus was telling the truth? Or phrased in another way (and probably less abrasive way), why do you assume that because Jesus said so, he is correct? It was prophesized in the Old Testament and all came to be. Muhammad and Lao-Tzu (just as a few examples) also claimed to have the key to changing our nature. Faith is not tangible so it is so hard to accept. The Jews were given direct evidence , proof in front of their very eyes, and they still do not believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
Look at the evidence of Jesus' resurrection, read the book of John and upon doing so pray to "God", a "Higher Power" that your eyes will be opened to the truth. Many people saw Jesus after he was dead. Saw him walking amongst them. Many people saw him and wrote of this and not as some sort of conspiracy. Jesus' himself told those amongst him of what would come to be in his life. He walked this earth never faltering, always consistent with the word of God. He was God in the flesh.

mama3hmscool

9th February 2008, 04:50 PM

"The Case for Christ"
Using the dramatic scenario of an investigative journalist pursuing his story and leads, Lee Strobel uses his experience as a reporter for the Chicago Tribune to interview experts about the evidence for Christ from the fields of science, philosophy, and history. Winner of the Gold Medallion Book Award and twice nominated for the Christian Book of the Year Award.

After having all his questions answered, Strobel pulls the evidence together and presents the verdict. Not surprisingly, the verdict, based on legal rules for evidence, pointed to Jesus being exactly who the Bible says he is. The evidence overwhelmingly points to Jesus being the son of God, who died on the cross and rose three days later. So if you have questions about the truth of the Christian claims, or know someone who does, this book is the best place to start. Written by someone who knew which questions to ask (because he had them too), this book presents logical, rational answers that can help.

"The Case for Faith"
In his #1 bestseller The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel examined the claims of Christ, reaching the hard-won verdict that Jesus is God's unique son. In The Case for Faith, Strobel turns his skills to the most persistent emotional objections to belief - the eight "heart barriers" to faith. This Gold Medallion-winning book is for those who may be feeling attracted to Jesus but who are faced with difficult questions standing squarely in their path. For Christians, it will deepen their convictions and give them fresh confidence in discussing Christianity with even their most skeptical friends.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 04:50 PM

Ok, lets break this into two parts (since I don't know how to quote on this forum properly, I'll just copy and paste :P)

1) "You see, we are not capable of change on our own, no matter how good the intentions."

I agree. We need guidance from a Teacher.I see what you are saying. But it's not quite the same as what I am saying.

2) Only Chirst has the power to make us into creatures that are worthy of being in His presence

I don't see the logic. We have the capacity to change, because the bible says that Christ allows us to?
Not quite. It's not just about reading a book and following its principles, and presto! Perfection! Being a Christian is not simply about picking a random system of belief. It is a living, spiritual relationship with God. It is the indwelling of His Spirit in us, enabling us to do His will, to grow in the faith and wisdom, to know Him better, etc. But it is not simply an "invasion of the body snatchers" scenario either. He works with us, in our hearts and minds, leading us to know Him better through the Scriptures.

The fact that Christ SAID he was the way is not to the point at all.

Why do you trust that Jesus was telling the truth? Or phrased in another way (and probably less abrasive way), why do you assume that because Jesus said so, he is correct? Muhammad and Lao-Tzu (just as a few examples) also claimed to have the key to changing our nature.
I don't have the ability to persuade you into the faith, so please don't think that is my goal here. What I can tell you is that Christ called me, not because I earned or deserved it or was particularly wise. And the evidence I can see is how He works in my life, growing me up, disciplining me, and teaching me more about His nature so that I truly do seek His will in my life (even above my own), even if it means suffering or death for His sake. I am human and I still mess up. But my deepest desire is to glorify God. I would not have that desire had He not put it there.

Of course if you're looking for an apologetics debate about the Bible itself, some here may be up for the discussion. I find it is much more helpful to do honest research into these things instead of participating in heated, emotional debates. The answers are all available. It is God who opens the eyes to see, not me. I'm not saying that meaningful discussions about these things are a bad idea (far from it. I'm a fundie, after all!!). But debates can be nothing more than baiting and closed-minded attacks, which I don't see any real value in. And I hope that this discussion doesn't go down that fruitless path.
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mama3hmscool

9th February 2008, 04:52 PM

Someone else who you should find of interest is Josh McDowell, also a former atheist. He has an excellent book entitled, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Historical evidences for the Christian Faith".
Product Description

When Josh McDowell (More Than A Carpenter (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=45523)) was a pre-law student, he was challenged by a group of Christians to investigate the claims of Jesus from a purely intellectual standpoint. At the time, he felt supremely confident Christianity would fail such an examination, so he set out to prove that Christianity was a sham. Along the way, he discovered something else; he discovered Jesus.

Evidence that Demands a Verdict may have started out as an attempt to prove Christianity intellectually false. What it has now become is something completely different. McDowell uncovered in his research the incredible resiliency of the Christian faith, and the strength of its intellectual claims. Thus, when he came to setting out his findings, he ended up creating one of the best Christian apologetic references available. And now he has made that reference work even better, revising it and updating it for the 21st century.

The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict maintains and strengthens McDowell's original arguments for the validity of Christianity. Jam-packed with information, this book looks at why the Bible can be trusted, including its historical reliability and accuracy. McDowell explains who Jesus is, and why the New Testament record of his personality and ministry is the best and most authentic source available. He also explains how several worldviews have attempted to discredit Christianity, particularly through the methods of biblical, form, and textual criticism. McDowell also examines several philosophical systems, including skepticism, agnosticism, and mysticism, and offers a cogent defense of the idea and reality of miracles.

Few apologetics books can claim the intellectual breadth that The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict has. Its extensive bibliography and documentation give it a firm foundation that enables it to weather even the strongest criticism. It has been a classic apologetic reference since its first publication, and it is now even better.

desmalia

9th February 2008, 04:54 PM

I also highly recommend Jesus Among Other Gods by Ravi Zacharias. He is a Christian apologist who was born and raised in India, and knows a great deal about the religions of the world.

anonymous1515

9th February 2008, 06:25 PM

Great, thanks guys! I'll check out those books.

DeaconDean

10th February 2008, 01:53 AM

I don't see any reason to believe the bible over any other holy book.

Why are some people able to have unquestioning faith, while others (such as myself) are unable to blindly trust a book?

Ok, let me just say that one thing about the Bible that sets it above all other books is it is the very words of God Almighty.

Scripture tells us:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," -2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV)

The original language the New Testament scriptures were written in was "Koine Greek." And in the Greek, the word for "inspired" is "qeopneustoV" (theopneustos). And it literally means "God breathed." The Bible is the literal word of the Lord God.

Furthermore, we are told that God, cannot lie. (cf. Titus 1:2)

Only one other personin the history of the world can this be said of, and that is Jesus Christ.

Which makes we wonder: why do Christians believe that Jesus was any more divine than say, Muhammed, or Buddha, or Krishna, or any other "holy" prophet.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, or rude, or dismissive of your beliefs. I just want to know why you chose Jesus.

Ok, to answer this question.

You absolutely must understand that there is one very big difference between Jesus Christ and every other prophet who walked the face of the earth.

And that is, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That cannot be said of Muhammad, or Budda, or Ghandi, or any other prophet.

That is what separates Him form the rest.

You can to the graves of these men, open them up and you will find their remains. I could take to a tomb in Jerusalem, and show you a tomb which is empty!

His body is not there! Unlike the other prophets.

And you want to know why I chose Jesus?

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." -Jn. 6:68 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 02:02 AM

DeaconDean

11th February 2008, 02:46 AM

DeaconDean, thanks for taking the time to reply. Here's the thing, and maybe its just my own problem:

I can't accept that the bible is the literal word of God simply because it says it is. It is easy to conceive that an average, mortal, non-divine monk wrote in the book, "this is the word of God." What if an average, everyday, mortal person wrote in his biography: "This is the word of God. God wrote this book." Would you believe it? Of course not.

Again, I am not trying to be dismissive or arrogant. I am just trying to explain my position. The fact that the book says it is from God, does not necessarily mean that it is. In the same way, it does not necessarily mean that it is not. It is no proof, one way or the other.

In the same way, the fact that the book says that Jesus was the son of God is no proof that he was.

Furthermore, you cannot go to the graves of any of the ancient prophets (at least, to the best of my knowledge). They simply don't exist anymore.

I have been referred to a bunch of books by other contributers to this thread, so I'll check those out, and see if they can clear any of my questions up for me. I suspect they will not, but I'll do my best to approach them with an open mind.

What else can I say?

The Bible tells us that we walk by faith not by sight.

And it is clear to me that you will not walk by faith. You want proof, physical, hand held, verifiable proof.

So what else could I say?

Even if I laid out 100% pure indisputable evidence, you still would not believe.

Jesus was right about one thing:

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -John 5:40 (KJV)

I'm sorry. But there really is, nothing else I can say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 03:02 AM

What else can I say?

The Bible tells us that we walk by faith not by sight.

And it is clear to me that you will not walk by faith. You want proof, physical, hand held, verifiable proof.

So what else could I say?

Even if I laid out 100% pure indisputable evidence, you still would not believe.

Jesus was right about one thing:

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -John 5:40 (KJV)

I'm sorry. But there really is, nothing else I can say.

God Bless

Till all are one.
If you laid out 100% pure, indisputable evidence, I WOULD believe. The problem is that there is no such thing. If there was proof of God's existence, faith would not exist. Similarly, neither would atheism, or agnosticism.

DeaconDean

11th February 2008, 03:31 AM

If you laid out 100% pure, indisputable evidence, I WOULD believe. The problem is that there is no such thing. If there was proof of God's existence, faith would not exist. Similarly, neither would atheism, or agnosticism.

No sir. I laid out proof for you, and you would not believe it.

you said:

I can't accept that the bible is the literal word of God simply because it says it is.

Fact is, my friend, no other book makes this claim.

And you still won't believe.

So what else can I say?

God Bless

Till all are one.

IamRedeemed

11th February 2008, 09:01 AM

Besides the fact that there is plenty of historical evidence that
the Bible is accurate, Jesus is the only one whose tomb is EMPTY.
Over 500 people witnessed Him resurrected over a period of 40 days after
he was mutilated (to the point that if it were not for his skeletel frame
he wouldn't even be recognizable as a man), crucified and confirmed dead.

As I said, it starts with an act of faith, but it doesn't end there, as it is
written and I can confirm that you can trust the Lord God
when He says in Jeremiah 29:13,

"And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search
for me with all your heart."

But how do you know to trust the word of Jesus? I know alot of people have probably asked you this same

mama3hmscool

11th February 2008, 12:46 PM

If you laid out 100% pure, indisputable evidence, I WOULD believe. The problem is that there is no such thing. If there was proof of God's existence, faith would not exist. Similarly, neither would atheism, or agnosticism.
Jesus said that many would not believe. Faith is proof of God's existence. And atheism or agnosticism are in large part due to people rejecting the God of the Bible, not because of lack of information about God, but rather the lack of a desire to know Him on the terms he has set for us.

mama3hmscool

11th February 2008, 12:57 PM

mama3hmscool

11th February 2008, 01:03 PM

DeaconDean, thanks for taking the time to reply. Here's the thing, and maybe its just my own problem:

I can't accept that the bible is the literal word of God simply because it says it is. It is easy to conceive that an average, mortal, non-divine monk wrote in the book, "this is the word of God." What if an average, everyday, mortal person wrote in his biography: "This is the word of God. God wrote this book." Would you believe it? Of course not.

Again, I am not trying to be dismissive or arrogant. I am just trying to explain my position. The fact that the book says it is from God, does not necessarily mean that it is. In the same way, it does not necessarily mean that it is not. It is no proof, one way or the other.

In the same way, the fact that the book says that Jesus was the son of God is no proof that he was.

Furthermore, you cannot go to the graves of any of the ancient prophets (at least, to the best of my knowledge). They simply don't exist anymore.

I have been referred to a bunch of books by other contributers to this thread, so I'll check those out, and see if they can clear any of my questions up for me. I suspect they will not, but I'll do my best to approach them with an open mind.
You are being shown and given the truth. You came here to this site and do you think that any of us just "happened" to stumble upon you? God sent us to you, a person in search of the truth. However, you like many others today reject the concept of absolute truth. Your truth like so many others is whatever the individual believes to be the truth. You are trapped in the claws of postmodernism-there is no absolute right or wrong, it all depends upon the situation.
"When a Christian shares his or her faith with an unbeliever, instead of a vociferous objection to the truth claims of Christianity, the more likely response is, "I'm glad that works for you, but I'm searching for my own truth."
Robert Jeffress, "Hell? Yes!"

NewGuy101

11th February 2008, 04:19 PM

there is no such thing as 100% verifiable evidence with finite beings..God's regeneration occurs with his grace.

desmalia

11th February 2008, 04:32 PM

There are some great comments here. As I think has been mentioned, it's not likely the entire apologetics of the Bible can be fully explored in an online forum. Proper research would be a better way to go.

And it is also quite true that when one really seeks truth, he or she will find it. But most are not searching for truth, but instead some kind of belief that already fits his or her predefined opinions.

As for evidence of what the Bible really is, it is quite useful to study the prophesies of the Old Testament (which have verified time of authorship), and weigh them against the events of the New Testament. In addition, an in depth study into the historical recordings of the Bible actually prove to be considerably more accurate than any other religious writing known to man. Those are just a few ideas for research. Don't take my word for it, of course. This is all stuff you will have to look into for yourself, if you care to.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 04:38 PM

there is no such thing as 100% verifiable evidence with finite beings..God's regeneration occurs with his grace.
I agree with you. I am not saying that I will NEVER believe in a Christian God. Similarly, I fully realize that coming to follow a certain religion requires a leap of faith.

I am just curious why some people believe the bible to be the word of God, while others believe other holy books. Also, many people change their religious views, both to and from Christianity. In my search for faith, I am just trying to gain perspective, and see why/how people choose to place a certain religion's truth claims above that those of others.

Now, don't take this as an argument for atheism. Just because Christians believe Jesus to be the final prophet of God, while Muslims believe Muhammad to be the return of Christ, does not mean that both religions are false. I am just searching for why you (Christians) have weighed the evidence, and decided Jesus to be the final prophet (and I do appreciate your views).

So I guess I should summarize what I have learned. It seems to me that these are the reasons why you have decided that Jesus is the last true prophet of God.

1. Jesus is the Son of God (also God himself), as claimed by the bible, which is the inerrant word of God.

2. The bible is the inerrant word of God. To accept this takes a leap of faith, which atheists/agnostics/people of other religions refuse to do.

3. Other religions (such as Islam, which we have used as an example, probably because it is the second largest religion in the world) were founded by mortals who claim to have received revelations from God. However, as they do not claim to be God himself, we cannot trust them.

4. Jesus produced miracles during his life, the most important of which was his ressurection after death. Since the bible is inerrant, this actually happened, and so proves that Jesus was God. No other prophet rose from his death, and as such, no other prophet (following Jesus' death) is a true prophet of God.

These seem to be the points that we have discussed. Are these a good summarization of the reason you are Christians (or rather, why you believe the bible to be true, and why you take Jesus to be the most recent prophet of God)?

desmalia

11th February 2008, 04:57 PM

One quick correction. While most religions believe Jesus was a prophet, Christians do not. He is God. Big difference there. :)

desmalia

11th February 2008, 05:00 PM

Oh, and there have been many prophets sent by God. If you read the Bible you'll see what I'm talking about.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 05:10 PM

Alright, agreed.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 05:14 PM

Hmm, perhaps I should clarify what I meant (although I think we are still in agreement). When I mean prophet, I mean an individual who has received a revelation directly from God (i.e. is speaking the word of God). Jesus, from the Christian perspective, would be a perfect prophet of God, since he IS God.

So, biblical prophets would be Moses, Abraham, Adam, etc. Each received a certain Revelation from God.

NewGuy101

11th February 2008, 08:23 PM

One quick correction. While most religions believe Jesus was a prophet, Christians do not. He is God. Big difference there. :)
Jesus is God who stated prophecy so you can technically call him a prophet. Although he wasn't limited like the previous prophets.

anonymous1515

11th February 2008, 11:06 PM

Agreed. So I have your positions pretty much summed up? I don't really see any other points that I am missing.

mama3hmscool

12th February 2008, 11:44 AM

One quick correction. While most religions believe Jesus was a prophet, Christians do not. He is God. Big difference there. :)
Absolutely.:thumbsup:

IamRedeemed

12th February 2008, 11:56 AM

A Big 10-4 there! :amen:

One quick correction. While most religions believe Jesus was a prophet, Christians do not. He is God. Big difference there. :)

anonymous1515

12th February 2008, 12:52 PM

mama3hmscool

12th February 2008, 01:07 PM

Well thanks guys. You've provided me with quite a few insights into faith, and religion choice. I'm still not convinced that the Bible is inerrant, or directly from God himself, but I guess I'll have to be content with the responses you gave me. Thanks again!
I pray for your enlightenment in your quest for the truth. I pray that you come to know absolute truth and not just what fits into your earthly desires.

Converted1

18th February 2008, 03:05 PM

But consider (for the sake of this discussion) the possibility that God is who He says He is in the Bible. If so, He is perfect, holy, just, the beginning and the end, powerful and mighty, the creator of everything in the entire universe, he is peace, love, he is the ultimate source of all that is good.

Why not start with the possibility that another book holds the truth? Why should any book be given the benefit of a doubt that it is "god's word" simply because it says so? All holy books claim authority.

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 03:12 PM

Why not start with the possibility that another book holds the truth? Why should any book be given the benefit of a doubt that it is "god's word" simply because it says so? All holy books claim authority.
Thank you. I agree. It seems like an assumption that most Christians begin discussions with is that "The Bible is the True Word of God."

...even in discussions about how we know it is the Word of God.

desmalia

18th February 2008, 03:19 PM

Why not start with the possibility that another book holds the truth? Why should any book be given the benefit of a doubt that it is "god's word" simply because it says so? All holy books claim authority.
If you want to talk about the Bible with Christians and are really trying to understand what we believe and why, this is a reasonable thing to ask, is it not?

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 03:25 PM

If you want to talk about the Bible with Christians and are really trying to understand what we believe and why, this is a reasonable thing to ask, is it not?
Well, sort of. But if I ask you "why do you believe the Bible is true" and you respond by saying "well, before we begin, let's assume it is true..." it doesn't get us very far. I'm wondering why you think it is true in the first place. Why don't you believe any other holy scriptures that claim they are also from God?

desmalia

18th February 2008, 03:38 PM

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 03:50 PM

So are you saying that you have not gained anything from our discussion? I was attempting to take you on a little journey so that you could try and see it a little bit from my angle. You seemed receptive at the time.

I could keep my answer simple and just tell you that I am a believer because Christ called me to Him. I have studied and questioned the Scriptures to the degree that I am satisfied in their inerrancy and authority. But doesn't really engage you the same as having a conversation. I apologize if you were looking for more of a formal debate.

Oh no, I don't meant that I didn't gain anything from our discussion. Far from it. I have gained quite a bit of insight into what it means to be a Christian. I haven't seen any reasons why the Bible is necessarily "better" than any other holy writings, but I have learned alot.

I would say that your belief in the Bible is based primarily on faith, just like anybody's belief in any holy book. To believe in Christ, one must make a leap of faith. I think I have learned primarily that there is no particular reason to choose one holy book over another. Rather, it is a personal choice, and one based on faith.

I do thank you for your inputs!:thumbsup:

IamRedeemed

18th February 2008, 03:55 PM

So, you do not think it is significant in any way that Jesus Christ was
resurrected as opposed to all of the others who lay as bones in their
graves or that hundreds and hundreds of Bible Prophecies that were
spoken hundreds and some even thousands of years prior, came to pass
and with such detailed accuracy? (just for starters)

Or that the Bible reveals scientific data that scientists weren't even aware
of and in fact refuted, and have since conceded, such as the earth
being round vs flat and the fact that Scientists are now conceding that there
is evidence for Noah's flood as spoken of in Genesis.

I find that a bit perplexing that you do not find those facts compelling
enough in the least that you would make it a point to diligently seek to
know the Truth, such as Lee Strobel did and follow it to its end....

I know that some would say that makes you a "thinker" and a smart person
but the TRUTH is actually the opposite, as it is ignoring evidence that one
does not want to believe, because they have bought a pack of lies from those
whom for some reason, they feel the need for approval from who arrogantly think
that to have faith means to leave your brain outside, which is completely fallacious.

Oh no, I don't meant that I didn't gain anything from our discussion. Far from it. I have gained quite a bit of insight into what it means to be a Christian. I haven't seen any reasons why the Bible is necessarily "better" than any other holy writings, but I have learned alot.

I would say that your belief in the Bible is based primarily on faith, just like anybody's belief in any holy book. To believe in Christ, one must make a leap of faith. I think I have learned primarily that there is no particular reason to choose one holy book over another. Rather, it is a personal choice, and one based on faith.

I do thank you for your inputs!:thumbsup:

desmalia

18th February 2008, 04:10 PM

BigNorsk

18th February 2008, 05:07 PM

Well, sort of. But if I ask you "why do you believe the Bible is true" and you respond by saying "well, before we begin, let's assume it is true..." it doesn't get us very far. I'm wondering why you think it is true in the first place. Why don't you believe any other holy scriptures that claim they are also from God?

Most things that people proclaim are scripture don't even make the claim. Most people who started religions never claimed to be god.

Jesus claimed to be God, the bible claims to be scripture.

Now you can't check out everything that is written in the Bible, but just like you can test any other witness, you can test to see if the Bible is basically true.

Take the field of biblical archeaology. Time and again the Bible has been shown to be consistent with what can be shown. And that's after sceptics said time after time it was just a bunch of made up things.

The other thing you notice about the bible. It is honest. You take the foundational writings of most religions and you find some people who were perfect. Outside of Jesus, that sure wasnt' the case in the Bible. Can you find any other religion which points out the terrible sins of it's human fathers? People who murdered to get women, who stole from each other, who had every single human failing known to mankind? I don't, other religion's books read like some sort of sanitized fantasy.

So there are lots of differences, and if you don't see them, I think you aren't looking, the biggest difference is Jesus.

Marv

IamRedeemed

18th February 2008, 05:10 PM

Yes, it is a gift and a promise.
And to every man is given the measure of faith.
When that faith is exercised, God then reveals Himself and is made real
in a person's life and it is no longer faith that He exists but a knowledge so deep,
that no one can steal no matter what they say or do because you now develop
a relationship with Him, He is as real as you or I. We cannot see Him, but we
can feel Him and we can see His works, and hear His voice.
Some hear it audibly, but most of us hear it in our spirits.
And we know it is Him, as He speaks truth that aligns with His written Word
and the things He promises during prayer time come to pass.

And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me
with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and
open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:20

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among
you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to
think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3

Albion

18th February 2008, 06:32 PM

Oh no, I don't meant that I didn't gain anything from our discussion. Far from it. I have gained quite a bit of insight into what it means to be a Christian. I haven't seen any reasons why the Bible is necessarily "better" than any other holy writings, but I have learned alot.

I would say that your belief in the Bible is based primarily on faith, just like anybody's belief in any holy book. To believe in Christ, one must make a leap of faith. I think I have learned primarily that there is no particular reason to choose one holy book over another. Rather, it is a personal choice, and one based on faith.

I have most earnestly to disagree with that conclusion. To use your own phraseology, I'd have to correct you to say that it's based upon a CALCULATED leap of faith, not a (blind) leap of faith, even though many Christians like to speak as though they were led to believe this or that by divine inspiration.

The Bible is probably the most scrutinized and questioned book in all of history. Skeptics have thrown the kitchen sink at it, questioning the historical facts, the scientific plausibility, and all that. After 2000 years it has stood up to all reasonable doubts. Historical and geographical matters discussed in the Bible which once were dismissed as impossible have, one after another, been shown to have actually happened or else how they very well could have happened. A few centuries ago, it was fashionable to say that Jesus himself was a fiction; no serious historian would say that today, no matter his personal religious leanings. Much more could be said along these lines, for example, that this is not a one-shot story but the record of a real people over many centuries--all verifiable. The books of the Bible have a consistent witness and lead from one to another even though written by a number of writers and over a long period of time. All this makes believing it more than a "leap of faith." You compared it with "other" religious writings. Which ones would those be? The Koran, the Hindu scriptures, and most of the works of the other great religions of the world don't even have the same format, being amonitions, morality tales not based in historical truth, poetry, or the like.

desmalia

18th February 2008, 07:43 PM

I have most earnestly to disagree with that conclusion. To use your own phraseology, I'd have to correct you to say that it's based upon a CALCULATED leap of faith, not a (blind) leap of faith, even though many Christians like to speak as though they were led to believe this or that by divine inspiration.

The Bible is probably the most scrutinized and questioned book in all of history. Skeptics have thrown the kitchen sink at it, questioning the historical facts, the scientific plausibility, and all that. After 2000 years it has stood up to all reasonable doubts. Historical and geographical matters discussed in the Bible which once were dismissed as impossible have, one after another, been shown to have actually happened or else how they very well could have happened. A few centuries ago, it was fashionable to say that Jesus himself was a fiction; no serious historian would say that today, no matter his personal religious leanings. Much more could be said along these lines, for example, that this is not a one-shot story but the record of a real people over many centuries--all verifiable. The books of the Bible have a consistent witness and lead from one to another even though written by a number of writers and over a long period of time. All this makes believing it more than a "leap of faith." You compared it with "other" religious writings. Which ones would those be? The Koran, the Hindu scriptures, and most of the works of the other great religions of the world don't even have the same format, being amonitions, morality tales not based in historical truth, poetry, or the like.
Excellent points as well brother. There is indeed nothing blind about the faith. Those, along with the fact that the earliest known manuscripts (found more recently) agree with the other copies that were used for so many centuries (which is nothing short of miraculous) are why I am a Fundamentalist. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with shutting off one's mind and just accepting whatever we're taught. We are to question, search, explore, learn, teach... in essence, seek after the nature of God. Another interesting note is that the Bible is the only religious writing you will find that does not change with passing cultures. It remains constant.

NewGuy101

18th February 2008, 08:03 PM

Excellent points as well brother. There is indeed nothing blind about the faith. Those, along with the fact that the earliest known manuscripts (found more recently) agree with the other copies that were used for so many centuries (which is nothing short of miraculous) are why I am a Fundamentalist. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with shutting off one's mind and just accepting whatever we're taught. We are to question, search, explore, learn, teach... in essence, seek after the nature of God. Another interesting note is that the Bible is the only religious writing you will find that does not change with passing cultures. It remains constant.
That's beside the fact that every worldview constains some form of faith that includes agnosticism or atheism. No one can claim to have a faithless system.

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 10:13 PM

You compared it with "other" religious writings. Which ones would those be? The Koran, the Hindu scriptures, and most of the works of the other great religions of the world don't even have the same format, being amonitions, morality tales not based in historical truth, poetry, or the like.

Sure, Hindu scripture is so old that it is hard to examine it's historical accuracy. However, I would correct you on your assumption that all other scripture is nothing but poetry and morality tales. If you would like, research a little about the Baha'i Faith. I'm not a Baha'i, but I don't see why Christianity is any more authentic or compelling than the Baha'i Faith.

I agree that it takes a leap of faith to follow any religion, however I don't know if it takes any less of one to follow Christianity. The fact that Jesus was a historic figure doesn't make it any more likely that he was divine, does it? Likewise, I would argue that it takes just as much faith (or perhaps even more) to believe that Jesus performed the miracles that are attributed to him, or to believe that He was God himself.

I should point out that I am not playing the Devil's Advocate just for the sake of being argumentative. These are questions I am truly struggling with, and ones I truly appreciate responses to. Thanks very much Albion. I think your post was quite well thought out.

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 10:15 PM

Excellent points as well brother. There is indeed nothing blind about the faith. Those, along with the fact that the earliest known manuscripts (found more recently) agree with the other copies that were used for so many centuries (which is nothing short of miraculous) are why I am a Fundamentalist. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with shutting off one's mind and just accepting whatever we're taught. We are to question, search, explore, learn, teach... in essence, seek after the nature of God. Another interesting note is that the Bible is the only religious writing you will find that does not change with passing cultures. It remains constant.
Hmmm, I have heard alot of stories about changes to the Bible, and rewrites over the ages. Certain people interpreted it differently, some put new verses in, some took some out. Is this true? Maybe I should research it a little bit...

desmalia

18th February 2008, 11:46 PM

Hmmm, I have heard alot of stories about changes to the Bible, and rewrites over the ages. Certain people interpreted it differently, some put new verses in, some took some out. Is this true? Maybe I should research it a little bit...
Indeed there are plenty of rumors to that effect. All you need to do is watch the Da Vinci Code to see that. But I encourage you to research it more. They are false, and easily proven so. It takes some digging outside of Hollywood and the standard hype to see that. But the evidence is there for anyone who cares to find it.

anonymous1515

18th February 2008, 11:50 PM

Indeed there are plenty of rumors to that effect. All you need to do is watch the Da Vinci Code to see that. But I encourage you to research it more. They are false, and easily proven so. It takes some digging outside of Hollywood and the standard hype to see that. But the evidence is there for anyone who cares to find it.
Hahaha, yeah. I don't usually base my opinions and positions on the writings of Dan Brown. I don't think the theories expressed in his fictional writings are unique though, so I will do some research into the topic.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:13 AM

Sure, Hindu scripture is so old that it is hard to examine it's historical accuracy. However, I would correct you on your assumption that all other scripture is nothing but poetry and morality tales. If you would like, research a little about the Baha'i Faith. I'm not a Baha'i, but I don't see why Christianity is any more authentic or compelling than the Baha'i Faith.

I agree that it takes a leap of faith to follow any religion, however I don't know if it takes any less of one to follow Christianity. The fact that Jesus was a historic figure doesn't make it any more likely that he was divine, does it? Likewise, I would argue that it takes just as much faith (or perhaps even more) to believe that Jesus performed the miracles that are attributed to him, or to believe that He was God himself. The historicity of Christ and how Christianity arose has no other explanation than that of a supernatural occurance. Why would 12 jews go and evangelize the world just to get tortured and beaten? Why is there so many accounts of Christs resurrection? Why is there so many fulfilled prophecies in the NT from the OT? No other religious writing is more reliable than the bible.

I should point out that I am not playing the Devil's Advocate just for the sake of being argumentative. These are questions I am truly struggling with, and ones I truly appreciate responses to. Thanks very much Albion. I think your post was quite well thought out. No prob, keep asking and we'll try our best. :thumbsup:

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:16 AM

Hmmm, I have heard alot of stories about changes to the Bible, and rewrites over the ages. Certain people interpreted it differently, some put new verses in, some took some out. Is this true? Maybe I should research it a little bit...
How about some proof for these allegations?

There is nothing to back up that assumption. The scriptures were spread through out the world that we can compile the whole bible just by quoting what the church fathers said. There is manuscripts found from different eras that match the same writings to a 99% accuracy.

To find out more about the of the scriptures go here (http://www.bible.org/series.php?series_id=166).

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:20 AM

The historicity of Christ and how Christianity arose has no other explanation than that of a supernatural occurance. Why would 12 jews go and evangelize the world just to get tortured and beaten? Why is there so many accounts of Christs resurrection? Why is there so many fulfilled prophecies in the NT from the OT? No other religious writing is more reliable than the bible.
No prob, keep asking and we'll try our best. :thumbsup:
I agree, it seems strange for people to continue to preach a new message from God even while being beaten and tortured. ...and not to do it for power or money no less!

Again, I urge you to consider the story of the foundations of the Baha'i Faith. It has very similar beginnings to that of Christianity. It is also very recent, and as such is historically accurate and reliable.

Although I am less familiar with the beginnings of Islam, I suspect it was also similar to that of the beginnings of Christianity.

I know I'm being quite difficult, and I'm sure it's frustrating. I do apologize!

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:21 AM

How about some proof for these allegations?

There is nothing to back up that assumption. The scriptures were spread through out the world that we can compile the whole bible just by quoting what the church fathers said. There is manuscripts found from different eras that match the same writings to a 99% accuracy.

To find out more about the of the scriptures go here (http://www.bible.org/series.php?series_id=166).
As I said, I'm looking into it....

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:24 AM

Again, I urge you to consider the story of the foundations of the Baha'i Faith. It has very similar beginnings to that of Christianity. It is also very recent, and as such is historically accurate and reliable.

How is it similar? I am completely ready to listen if you explain it to me.
Although I am less familiar with the beginnings of Islam, I suspect it was also similar to that of the beginnings of Christianity.
Nope, Islam had a leader which had much to gain unlike the crucified Christ.

I know I'm being quite difficult, and I'm sure it's frustrating. I do apologize! No prob, an open heart it always good.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:24 AM

As I said, I'm looking into it....
Kay, just look at what the evidence presents not what you want it to present. :P

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:28 AM

Kay, just look at what the evidence presents not what you want it to present. :P
Hah, of course! I have no reason to want to believe that the Bible is inaccurate. I want to know what is right, and what is the truth. I think everybody should...

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:35 AM

How is it similar? I am completely ready to listen if you explain it to me.

Well, I don't know if I could do the story justice. After all, I'm not a Baha'i. Maybe you should look into it for your own benefit some time, just to make sure that I'm not ruining your opinion of the faith by providing inaccurate details. I've been studying various faiths for some time now (with the notable exception of Islam, which I'm going to look into soon), and the story of the founding of the Baha'i faith intrigues me as much as the founding of Christianity. I see a very similar message in both faiths.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:35 AM

Just from what I read in a few minutes the Bahai faith seems like a self defeating faith. First they preach that God is unknowable. My question is HOW DO THEY KNOW? Not only that but they claim a bunch of relativistic doctrines mixing Buddhism, Islam and Christianity. Faiths which consistently contradict each other.

Oneness and Unity The Baha'i faith teaches the oneness of God, the oneness of all religions, and the oneness of mankind. The emphasis on oneness is not window dressing; it is a core concept of the system. Unity is sought, taught, and preached today and is the goal for tomorrow. The mission of Baha'i life is to bring to fruition the unity of all mankind in a divine civilization based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah

God: The nature of God is completely unknowable. He is transcendent to the point of total inaccessibility. Baha'u'llah spoke of God as, ".the unknowable Essence,. immensely exalted beyond every human attribute. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient mystery of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men" (Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.46-47).http://www.watchman.org/profile/bahaipro.htm

Albion

19th February 2008, 01:45 AM

Sure, Hindu scripture is so old that it is hard to examine it's historical accuracy.

That's putting it quite mildly, I'd say.

However, I would correct you on your assumption that all other scripture is nothing but poetry and morality tales. If you would like, research a little about the Baha'i Faith. I'm not a Baha'i, but I don't see why Christianity is any more authentic or compelling than the Baha'i Faith.

All right. I acknowledge that point. I was speaking only of the major religions of the world, i.e. the competitors of Christianity, and Baha'i is not one of them. Anyway, in its foundations, it is Islamic, and Islam's holy book is merely an unchronological, unhistorical, compilation of one man's religious musings--quite different from the Bible.

I agree that it takes a leap of faith to follow any religion, however I don't know if it takes any less of one to follow Christianity. The fact that Jesus was a historic figure doesn't make it any more likely that he was divine, does it?

Merely to have him EXIST establishes something about him that is light years ahead of the pagan gods which have NO such claim to existence, let along anything that follows.

Likewise, I would argue that it takes just as much faith (or perhaps even more) to believe that Jesus performed the miracles that are attributed to him, or to believe that He was God himself.

Than the tales of many of the non-Western deities like Krishna? I think not.

I should point out that I am not playing the Devil's Advocate just for the sake of being argumentative. These are questions I am truly struggling with, and ones I truly appreciate responses to. Thanks very much Albion. I think your post was quite well thought out.

Sure. To clarify a little more, my intention was not to make you an instant convert. It was to counter the idea that there is nothing about Christianity that is different from the other major religious systems of the world, meaning that all require am equal "pig in a poke" leap of faith. In fact, Christianity is based to a large extent upon evidence that has held up to scrutiny. Now, that doesn't mean that walking on water or rising from the dead is easily established just because other elements in the Gospel accounts are verifiable, I agree completely, but if a large percentage of what is taught is verifiable--which it is--I think that makes acceptance of the rest considerably more sensible.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:46 AM

Just from what I read in a few minutes the Bahai faith seems like a self defeating faith. First they preach that God is unknowable. My question is HOW DO THEY KNOW? Not only that but they claim a bunch of relativistic doctrines mixing Buddhism, Islam and Christianity. Faiths which consistently contradict each other.

http://www.watchman.org/profile/bahaipro.htm (http://www.watchman.org/profile/bahaipro.htm)

Hmm, I must say I'm a little disappointed in you. You asked me to search out the evidence that exists, not the evidence I want to find, and you went straight to a Christian-biased site to learn about what Christians should think of the Baha'i Faith. The site comes complete with a "Biblical Response" to the Faith.

Shall I go seek out answers to my questions about Christianity from atheists? Perhaps Muslims can answer my questions about the true nature of Christ?

I would like to entertain your views on the relativistic nature of the Baha'i faith, and I would like to discuss your question of "how do they know?" But I fear it will be a waste of my time and yours...

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:49 AM

Hmm, I must say I'm a little disappointed in you. You asked me to search out the evidence that exists, not the evidence I want to find, and you went straight to a Christian-biased site to learn about what Christians should think of the Baha'i Faith. The site comes complete with a "Biblical Response" to the Faith.

Shall I go seek out answers to my questions about Christianity from atheists? Perhaps Muslims can answer my questions about the true nature of Christ?

I would like to entertain your views on the relativistic nature of the Baha'i faith, and I would like to discuss your question of "how do they know?" But I fear it will be a waste of my time and yours...
If you would like to ask atheist about Christians please do so. All you will see is a bunch of naturalistic presuppositions. HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING WE CANT TOUCH? .I think you know that already. But they will never state honestly that we are irrational or relativistic hence why we are the crazy religious right. Not the honest atheist at least, they know that they have their assumptions therefore they cannot believe "our views."

BTW you state you are disappointed with my quotes, well is what I quoted incorrect? You make all of these absolute statements without knowing that the vast majority of contemporary religious movements are relativistic trying to mix all religion in peace of unity.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 01:55 AM

All right. I acknowledge that point. I was speaking only of the major religions of the world, i.e. the competitors of Christainity, and Baha'i is not one of them.
Yeah, I agree. For the most part, one would probably consider the major competitors of Christianity in a discussion of potential religions. Fair enough.

Merely to have him EXIST establishes something about him that is light years ahead of the pagan gods which have NO such claim to existence, let along anything that follows.
That is a valid point, I think. Ok, I accept that. :)

Than the tales of many of the non-Western deities like Krishna? I think not.
Well, technically Christianity started off as an Eastern religion, just like every other religion. But sure, it could be considered Western today I suppose.

Sure. To clarify a little more, my intention was not to make you an instant convert. It was to counter the idea that there is nothing about Christianity that is different from the other major religious systems of the world, meaning that all require am equal "pig in a poke" leap of faith. In fact, Christianity is based to a large extent upon evidence that has held up to scrutiny. Now, that doesn't mean that walking on water or rising from the dead is easily established just because other elements in the Gospel accounts are verifiable, I agree completely, but if a large percentage of what is taught is verifiable--which it is--I think that makes acceptance of the rest considerably more sensible.

You seem pretty tolerant of others' beliefs, and I respect that. So far I have found it is a pretty rare quality for a Christian on these forums to even consider that their belief requires at least some leap of faith. I should also point out that I'm not expecting to become an instant convert, but rather to learn about your faith more. I find it very interesting to learn why people believe what they believe. And where better to go than directly to the people that believe it?

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:56 AM

Bahá'ís believe that there is only one God who is the source of all creation. God is transcendent and unknowable. However, He has sent, and will continue to send, great prophets to humanity, through which the Holy Spirit has revealed the "Word of God." The Great Manifestations of God up to this time have been:
Adam (? BCE (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce.htm))
Abraham (? BCE)
Moses (1456 BCE)
Krishna (1249 BCE)
Zoroaster (1000 BCE)
Buddha (757 BCE)
Jesus Christ (34 CE (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce.htm))
Mohammed (613 CE)
The Bab (1844 CE)
Baha'u'llahWrong Ey? Biased ey?

Neither the official Bahá'í website, 1 or the national web sites in Canada 2 or the U.S. 3 appear to contain any description of the faith's teachings on homosexuality. The Canadian web site, for example, states: "The Bahá'í teachings promote the elimination of all forms of prejudice and uphold equal dignity and respect for all peoples, regardless of their racial, ethnic, religious or national background. Equality of men and women, the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth and economic justice for all peoples, universal education, and the dignity of the individual are central Bahá'í principles." 4
http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai3.htm

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 01:58 AM

You seem pretty tolerant of others' beliefs, and I respect that. So far I have found it is a pretty rare quality for a Christian on these forums to even consider that their belief requires at least some leap of faith. I should also point out that I'm not expecting to become an instant convert, but rather to learn about your faith more. I find it very interesting to learn why people believe what they believe. And where better to go than directly to the people that believe it?
EVERY BELIEF REQUIRES "A LEAP OF FAITH" as you defined it. One cannot believe or do anything without starting out with axioms or assumptions.

Albion

19th February 2008, 02:00 AM

You seem pretty tolerant of others' beliefs, and I respect that. So far I have found it is a pretty rare quality for a Christian on these forums to even consider that their belief requires at least some leap of faith. I should also point out that I'm not expecting to become an instant convert, but rather to learn about your faith more. I find it very interesting to learn why people believe what they believe. And where better to go than directly to the people that believe it?

I understand...and I agree about the style of the many frequenters of forums like this one, whatever their faith, who think that merely stating a belief and claiming that it is true is somehow compelling.:sigh:

desmalia

19th February 2008, 02:02 AM

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:12 AM

Wrong Ey? Biased ey?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai3.htm
NewGuy...I hesitate to respond to you, but I will only because you seem unaware of your own hipocrisy.

I've invested quite a bit of time into learning about and debating with Bahai's. I've spent hours and hours reading about hundreds of topics, and even more time discussing them with Bahai's in person (and yes, I've covered the issue of homosexuality in great depth). Don't try to pull a fast one on me...I know a little more about religion than you think. Just because I haven't affiliated myself with one doesn't mean I don't know about the religions I've studied.

If you would like to discuss the Baha'i faith, I suggest you talk with a Baha'i. I'm not going to defend the Baha'i faith because you find error with it. I could just as easily google an atheist site devoted to bashing Christianity, and post a bunch of quotes here too. If you think internal conflict is a sign of false religion, perhaps you should step back and look at the Forums on this site for a harsh dose of reality - Christianity is subject to contradiction too. Shall we examine the Golden Rule perhaps? Ah, might that conflict with traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality? Perhaps not...I'm sure homosexuals would want to be treated the way they have by other Christians.

Like I said, I'm not a Baha'i, and I'm not going to defend the faith here. I'm not looking for contradictions to falsify a faith. This isn't a science project. I'm looking for reasons why people believe what they do, and why Christians believe the Bible is correct.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:15 AM

Is this to be a debate between the Baha'i Faith and Christianity? If so, we can certainly pursue that path. Let's define some parameters for discussion here, if we can. I have studied the Baha'i Faith and would be happy to revisit those studies if that is what is asked for here. (Though I will need a bit of time to go back into my studies, of course).
Ah, I would rather not enter a discussion of the Baha'i faith here. Rather, I would like to learn why you believe what you do, and why it is more compelling than other faiths you have studied (assuming those who post here have studied others). If you would like to provide specific examples of why you find Christianity more compelling than another faith, that's fine. But I would rather not enter into a religion-bashing contest.

Albion

19th February 2008, 02:17 AM

It looks to me as though Baha'i came up only incidentally and that there was no intention of making it the focus of debate. Why don't we stick to the main discussion of late, which I understand to be reasons why Christianity recommends itself to its members rather than some other faith?

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 02:25 AM

NewGuy...I hesitate to respond to you, but I will only because you seem unaware of your own hipocrisy.

I've invested quite a bit of time into learning about and debating with Bahai's. I've spent hours and hours reading about hundreds of topics, and even more time discussing them with Bahai's in person (and yes, I've covered the issue of homosexuality in great depth). Don't try to pull a fast one on me...I know a little more about religion than you think. Just because I haven't affiliated myself with one doesn't mean I don't know about the religions I've studied.

If you would like to discuss the Baha'i faith, I suggest you talk with a Baha'i. I'm not going to defend the Baha'i faith because you find error with it. I could just as easily google an atheist site devoted to bashing Christianity, and post a bunch of quotes here too. If you think internal conflict is a sign of false religion, perhaps you should step back and look at the Forums on this site for a harsh dose of reality - Christianity is subject to contradiction too. Shall we examine the Golden Rule perhaps? Ah, might that conflict with traditional Christian teachings on homosexuality? Perhaps not...I'm sure homosexuals would want to be treated the way they have by other Christians.

Like I said, I'm not a Baha'i, and I'm not going to defend the faith here. I'm not looking for contradictions to falsify a faith. This isn't a science project. I'm looking for reasons why people believe what they do, and why Christians believe the Bible is correct.
Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself. You stated that you don't find Christianity reliable because other faiths are just a reliable. I have shown you over and over again why that isnt the case. I asked you to show me about the specific case you brought up (Bahai faith). Every time I bring up clear contradictions to your presuppositions you either don't respond or resort to a subjective argument.Is it that I'm a hypocrite or is it that I'm challenging your assumptions? Again, if you think there is contradictions in Christianity post it. I will show you that that isn't the case. And no homosexuality isn't an issue in Christianity thats liberals perverting the scripture. 2000 years of Christian history have shown that the bible is more than clear on that issue.

What is the real issue then?

BTW if you are curious whether or not I would ever leave me faith. Yes I would, if Christianity ever violate the law of contradiction I would be the first one to leave this forum and christainity. If it was ever proven that Christ didn't rise from the dead, I would be the first one to renounce my faith.

Albion

19th February 2008, 02:32 AM

Ah, I would rather not enter a discussion of the Baha'i faith here. Rather, I would like to learn why you believe what you do, and why it is more compelling than other faiths you have studied (assuming those who post here have studied others). If you would like to provide specific examples of why you find Christianity more compelling than another faith, that's fine. But I would rather not enter into a religion-bashing contest.

I realize that you are speaking to another poster in the above, but it's not as though you haven't already been given specific reasons for following Christ, meaning the credibility of the Bible. However, I didn't see that you responded to them. When I, for one, expounded on this matter, you responded by thanking me for being broadminded. While I appreciate that, I still wonder what you think of the answer since you seem now to be repeating your request for reasons for being Christian as though no one here has yet come up with any for you to think on.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:34 AM

Every time I bring up clear contradictions to your presuppositions you either don't respond or resort to a subjective argument.Is it that I'm a hypocrite or is it that I'm challenging your assumptions? Again, if you think there is contradictions in Christianity post it. I will show you that that isn't the case. And no homosexuality isn't an issue in Christianity thats liberals perverting the scripture. 2000 years of Christian history have shown that the bible is more than clear on that issue.

Hahaha. You're very funny. I don't think I've dodged any questions yet. I've responded to all your questions. Also, what subjective arguments have I raised so far? In fact, let's refer back to page 2 for a brief recap of your position, and then let's discuss subjectivity, shall we?

But let me tell you my assumptions while we are ahead. I believe the bible is God's inerrant WORD and is the only authoritative means of truth.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:42 AM

Yeah, let's continue on your points. I agree that the fact that Jesus has been verified as a true historic figure lends credence to the Bible. As I said, I don't see that it proves in any way that Jesus was God (you also agreed with me).

In earlier posts in this thread, other Christians claimed that because the Bible "said" it was the Word of God was proof of its authenticity. I don't know that I can believe that. To me, it is a massive difference to claim "Jesus was a historic figure" and to claim "Jesus was God."

Ok, so you assert that historic verifiability is one reason to believe in the Bible. Well, I mentioned that the Baha'i faith was founded fairly recently, and as such is equally credible (however that topic quickly derailed our train of thought....).

Are there any other reasons I am missing? I agree with the moral teachings of Jesus, but it seems quite arbitrary to follow a faith based on moral teachings that I already agree with, wouldn't you say? Similarly, I agree with the moral teachings of many "prophets," including Buddha, Krishna, and Baha'u'llah. So, I'm not sure that I could accept a certain religion based on its moral teachings alone.

I'm still confused!!

Albion

19th February 2008, 02:54 AM

Yeah, let's continue on your points. I agree that the fact that Jesus has been verified as a true historic figure lends credence to the Bible. As I said, I don't see that it proves in any way that Jesus was God (you also agreed with me).

But that was only one consideration. The Bible, as noted, is also a record of a historically-verifiable people written over many centuries, it's history and geography are remarkably proven by modern research, it has a pattern and consistency, its prophesies appear to have been fulfilled, and so on. It's not just that Jesus was a real person. ALL of this might be compared to a treasure map that says "you will find" X, then Y, which are not thought to be predictable, only to have them be found after all. So when a pattern proves itself out, there is every reason to conclude that the last prediction or point made is likely to be right also. It's not 100% provable on this account, but it surely is not a leap of faith to believe it.

Ok, so you assert that historic verifiability is one reason to believe in the Bible. Well, I mentioned that the Baha'i faith was founded fairly recently, and as such is equally credible (however that topic quickly derailed our train of thought....).

Not comparable at all, to my way of thinking. Tell us exactly what compares in its sacred writings with what I've said about the Bible.

Are there any other reasons I am missing? I agree with the moral teachings of Jesus, but it seems quite arbitrary to follow a faith based on moral teachings that I already agree with, wouldn't you say? Similarly, I agree with the moral teachings of many "prophets," including Buddha, Krishna, and Baha'u'llah. So, I'm not sure that I could accept a certain religion based on its moral teachings alone.

I agree that this is not a true test. Christianity--and Jesus himself--did NOT claim to be a set of ethical propositions, so judging it by that standard is obviously wrong. What is at the heart of the Bible and the Gospel in particular is the claim of Jesus as God and savior of mankind. You would agree, I assume, that the test of any of the religions of the world is "Is it in fact what it claims to be?"

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:58 AM

BTW if you are curious whether or not I would ever leave me faith. Yes I would, if Christianity ever violate the law of contradiction I would be the first one to leave this forum and christainity. If it was ever proven that Christ didn't rise from the dead, I would be the first one to renounce my faith.

Well, I'd say that you are moving the goalposts pretty far there. How could it possibly be proven that Christ didn't rise from the dead? I imagine you'll say something like by finding his corpse. I won't point out why that isn't a compelling argument.

So for you it was the story of Christ's return from the dead that convinced you to be a Christian? Why was the story convincing for you?

Albion

19th February 2008, 03:06 AM

I'm going to have to sign off in a few minutes, so here's something else to consider.

Christianity is the only religion that can be said to be universal. It is universal in its spread, in its membership (by far larger than any other), and in its inclusiveness (neither Jew nor Greek, etc.)

If the truth is for all men of all times...

...is it probable that any small faith, primarily regional, and/or of recent vintage could be that all-encompassing faith that could be considered the true religion affecting all of mankind?

And consider...Judeo-Christianity can fairly be considered the only real religion in the world, anyway--as opposed to an ethical discipline. Islam is a Christian heresy, and the religions of the East are not even theistic, just explanations of how the universe operates.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 03:09 AM

But that was only one consideration. The Bible, as noted, is also a record of a historically-verifiable people written over many centuries, it's history and geography are remarkably proven by modern research, it has a pattern and consistency, its prophesies appear to have been fulfilled, and so on. It's not just that Jesus was a real person. ALL of this might be compared to a treasure map that says "you will find" X, then Y, which are not thought to be predictable, only to have them be found after all. So when a pattern proves itself out, there is every reason to conclude that the last prediction or point made is likely to be right also. It's not 100% provable on this account, but it surely is not a leap of faith to believe it.

Yes, I agree! In fact, that is quite the same logic that we use in accepting evolutionary theory. We cannot experimentally test that all life evolved from a common ancestor, yet almost all of the evidence supports it. It a logical conclusion, yet it does require (only in the minutest of senses) a leap of faith to believe that common ancestry is true. So yes! I completely agree with you! If I can be convinced that there is enough supporting evidence in favour of the truth of the Bible, as you describe it, then I would most certainly believe it to be true even if I cannot know for certain that Christ was God. And, of course, I will extend that logic to other faiths as well.

Thank you very much Albion! You have my utmost respect!

Albion

19th February 2008, 03:11 AM

So for you it was the story of Christ's return from the dead that convinced you to be a Christian? Why was the story convincing for you?

New Guy will have to answer for himself, but of course that is a question that applies to all of us ultimately. If there is no resurrection of Christ, there is no Christianity.

So why do we believe it? Because everything that led up to it, in the only record OF it (the Bible), has proven itself. In addition, we have fairly good evidence that all those who were Christ's Apostles went to their deaths rather than deny the resurrection of Christ, something that is highly doubtful were the whole thing not absolutely believed by these men who were, after all, eyewitnesses to the risen Christ.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 02:04 PM

Hahaha. You're very funny. I don't think I've dodged any questions yet. I've responded to all your questions. Also, what subjective arguments have I raised so far? In fact, let's refer back to page 2 for a brief recap of your position, and then let's discuss subjectivity, shall we?
Look what is the real issue with Christianity? I really want to get at the root of the problem. There is so much evidence for it and how realiable it is ...so I know it cant be that.

My position states my assumptions, they are not subjective EVERY ARGUMENT HAS ASSUMPTIONS.

I'm honestly trying to help.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 02:08 PM

Well, I'd say that you are moving the goalposts pretty far there. How could it possibly be proven that Christ didn't rise from the dead? I imagine you'll say something like by finding his corpse. I won't point out why that isn't a compelling argument. In never stated that this is the reason for my belief, but this a reason why I would leave the faith along with deductive contradictions in any system.

So for you it was the story of Christ's return from the dead that convinced you to be a Christian? Why was the story convincing for you?
Nope, God's grace turned me to him. I had to realize that I was a sinner and so were all the people around me. I researched so much of the evidence relating back to why the scripture is reliable and the complexity of the universe why I can't be just an arbitrary creation. Without Christianity the world doesn't make sense and every single other world view I have seen constantly vioaltes the law of contradiction or has clear touches of human will like islam for example.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:19 PM

Without Christianity the world doesn't make sense and every single other world view I have seen constantly vioaltes the law of contradiction or has clear touches of human will like islam for example.

Well, I'm glad that you have found something that makes you happy. I don't agree that other worldviews are any more contradictory than Christianity. Perhaps you don't understand them? Perhaps I don't either. What is this "law of contradiction" that you refer to? Is it something along the lines of: If a religion contradicts itself in any way whatsoever, it is false?

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 02:20 PM

Yes, I agree! In fact, that is quite the same logic that we use in accepting evolutionary theory. We cannot experimentally test that all life evolved from a common ancestor, yet almost all of the evidence supports it. It a logical conclusion, yet it does require (only in the minutest of senses) a leap of faith to believe that common ancestry is true. So yes! I completely agree with you! If I can be convinced that there is enough supporting evidence in favour of the truth of the Bible, as you describe it, then I would most certainly believe it to be true even if I cannot know for certain that Christ was God. And, of course, I will extend that logic to other faiths as well.

Thank you very much Albion! You have my utmost respect!
Macroevolution is only a logical necessity with naturalist assumptions. BTW, do you believe something based on evidence or must you have axioms in order to start in a view? If so can you provide evidence that I must have evidence to believe something.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 02:22 PM

Well, I'm glad that you have found something that makes you happy. I don't agree that other worldviews are any more contradictory than Christianity. Perhaps you don't understand them? Perhaps I don't either. What is this "law of contradiction" that you refer to? Is it something along the lines of: If a religion contradicts itself in any way whatsoever, it is false?

It's not about my feelings. That's what postmoderns preach, all real christians adhere to the universel truth of the christian system.

The Law of Contradiction (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/lawofcon.htm)

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 02:45 PM

It's not about my feelings. That's what postmoderns preach, all real christians adhere to the universel truth of the christian system.

The Law of Contradiction (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/lawofcon.htm)
Ah, I see. Very interesting. I find it very interesting that you would assume other faith systems have internal contradictions, yet Christianity does not. Firstly, to assume that the Bible has no contradictions because it is the Word of God is begging the question, so we can discard any arguments like that.

Second, I could quickly skim over the Bible and point out a TON of contradictions. I could also skim over the Taoist writings of Lao Tzu and do the same. In fact, at face value, the Toaist texts seem to be chalk full of contradictions. It takes time, understanding, faith, and patience to resolve the contradictions of any faith.

I still have yet to see a "contradiction" in any faith system that cannot be explained away by its proponents. Christianity is just as guilty of this as any other faith, so don't exalt your own personal biases too soon NewGuy.

In other words, I would hesitate to use the "law of contradictions" to choose a faith.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 03:02 PM

Ah, I see. Very interesting. I find it very interesting that you would assume other faith systems have internal contradictions, yet Christianity does not. Firstly, to assume that the Bible has no contradictions because it is the Word of God is begging the question, so we can discard any arguments like that. First of all, if the God of the bible exists he must be a rational coherent God. There cannot be any contradictions, if there is then the Christian system must be necesserly false. If there is any contradictions please post them... I will show you, there isn't any.

Second, I could quickly skim over the Bible and point out a TON of contradictions. I could also skim over the Taoist writings of Lao Tzu and do the same. In fact, at face value, the Toaist texts seem to be chalk full of contradictions. It takes time, understanding, faith, and patience to resolve the contradictions of any faith. Please point out the contradictions in Christianity... Seconly Taoism is relativistic based on a subjective experiences. It is a self defeating world view. It's adherents can say whatever they want, but they will be appealing to incorrect pressupositions like atheists.

I still have yet to see a "contradiction" in any faith system that cannot be explained away by its proponents. Christianity is just as guilty of this as any other faith, so don't exalt your own personal biases too soon NewGuy. Again, proof...and you are biased as well. EVERYONE IS BIASED there is no objective view, the only truthfull view is that of God.

In other words, I would hesitate to use the "law of contradictions" to choose a faith.
I don't, if christianity contradicts itself,it is logically self defeating. Is this really the problem? Or is there something else.

anonymous1515

19th February 2008, 03:54 PM

First of all, if the God of the bible exists he must be a rational coherent God. There cannot be any contradictions, if there is then the Christian system must be necesserly false. If there is any contradictions please post them... I will show you, there isn't any.

I'm quite surprised by your apparent lack of understanding of the concept of faith. You assume that the Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God, and then assume that it is the Word of God because it says so, because it is inerrant. Ever heard of a tautology?

Also, you don't have to assume that everything said in the Bible is the inerrant Word of God to be a Christian. God didn't write the Bible himself - people did. It is a collection of stories attributed to Jesus.

I find it entertaining that you seem to believe that you have somehow tapped into the "truth" of the Bible, whereas millions of other Christians who do not interpret it the same way as you are somehow false. Why are you gifted with objectivity in your interpretations, yet others are not?

Please point out the contradictions in Christianity... Seconly Taoism is relativistic based on a subjective experiences. It is a self defeating world view. It's adherents can say whatever they want, but they will be appealing to incorrect pressupositions like atheists.

You asked me to present instances of contradictions in the Bible so that you can explain them away to me. I see many contradictions in the Bible, but the point is not whether you can explain them away or not - the point is that every faith system seems to have contradictions that can be explained and resolved. Yes, even Taoism. Just because you interpret the Bible in a manner that leaves no contradictions does not negate the fact that contradictions exist. Do you understand my point, or should I elaborate further?

Again, proof...and you are biased as well. EVERYONE IS BIASED there is no objective view, the only truthfull view is that of God.
I don't, if christianity contradicts itself,it is logically self defeating. Is this really the problem? Or is there something else.

No, the fact that the Bible contradicts itself is not the problem. I've already said that. Every faith appears to contradict itself in some ways, yet it can be interpreted in manners that allow those contradictions to be resolved.

Let's take an example:

Matthew 7:12.
“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

I interpret this to mean that we should treat all others equally. Yet, we find this verse in the Bible:

1 Timothy 2:11-12
Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

These seem to contradict, wouldn't you say? The law of the prophets is to treat others as we would be treated, yet Paul himself tells us that women do not deserve equal treatment as men. Interesting. Explain away NewGuy.

If you cannot resolve the point, then you have just forfeited your faith.

If you can resolve the point, then you just showed how contradictions are subject to personal interpretation. Either way, your point is moot. Faiths cannot be discarded based solely on contradictions in scripture.

NewGuy101

19th February 2008, 04:22 PM

I'm quite surprised by your apparent lack of understanding of the concept of faith. You assume that the Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God, and then assume that it is the Word of God because it says so, because it is inerrant. Ever heard of a tautology? I'm assuming the bible is the Word of God because the scripture MUST be an axiom for every believer. Every system must start with axioms no matter what system one adheres to. If one starts with anything, beling logic which is what you are arguing you are CHEATING. Where did the laws of Logic come from? God. You are trying to use God's own system to attack him.

Also, you don't have to assume that everything said in the Bible is the inerrant Word of God to be a Christian. God didn't write the Bible himself - people did. It is a collection of stories attributed to Jesus.
Again incorrect. To be a REAL christian, one must assume that the bible is the inerrant word of God. If you dont, then one is using subjective experiences to make their own religion...that is no longer christianity hence liberalism.

I find it entertaining that you seem to believe that you have somehow tapped into the "truth" of the Bible, whereas millions of other Christians who do not interpret it the same way as you are somehow false. Why are you gifted with objectivity in your interpretations, yet others are not? So what you are saying there is no way to know absolute truth? Seems like an absolute statement. :D

You asked me to present instances of contradictions in the Bible so that you can explain them away to me. I see many contradictions in the Bible, but the point is not whether you can explain them away or not - the point is that every faith system seems to have contradictions that can be explained and resolved. Yes, even Taoism. Just because you interpret the Bible in a manner that leaves no contradictions does not negate the fact that contradictions exist. Do you understand my point, or should I elaborate further? So its up to a subjective experience? So much for trying to know the truth. Intially what you are saying is that truth comes from us. I and every christian will reject that, truth comes only from God.

No, the fact that the Bible contradicts itself is not the problem. I've already said that. Every faith appears to contradict itself in some ways, yet it can be interpreted in manners that allow those contradictions to be resolved. So you dont know if it contradict itself? You are just saying it appears to right? HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT DOES OR DOESN'T? Does appreance only matter or what? How do you know truth?

Let's take an example:

Matthew 7:12.
“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

I interpret this to mean that we should treat all others equally. Yet, we find this verse in the Bible:

1 Timothy 2:11-12
Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

These seem to contradict, wouldn't you say? The law of the prophets is to treat others as we would be treated, yet Paul himself tells us that women do not deserve equal treatment as men. Interesting. Explain away NewGuy.

If you cannot resolve the point, then you have just forfeited your faith.

If you can resolve the point, then you just showed how contradictions are subject to personal interpretation. Either way, your point is moot. Faiths cannot be discarded based solely on contradictions in scripture.

The problem is that you are not viewing scripture in context. The bible must be read like any other BOOK and read it in context. If you want to leave to your own personal views YOU CAN MAKE IT DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. YOU can make contradictions in your head even if there isn't any.

Again HOW DO YOU COME TO TRUTH? You are basically arguing with can't know anything. My question is HOW DO YOU KNOW?

Resolving the verses you speak of. Mat 7:12 speaks of treating everyone with repsect and love not to literally treat everyone exactly how you would treat yourself. Equality (respect for all of humanity) doesn't mean they should have the exact same roles or jobs or responsibility. Clearly using ones brain one would see that there is several variables that one comes to play. For example culture, morals and roles which God game to men and women. That's what 1 Tim 2:11 address , it's speaking that God's order which is men leading the church and women staying quiet in church because that's the structure which men and women had 2000 years ago.

In context

7:9 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=9) Is 12 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mat&chapter=7#n12) there anyone among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 7:10 (http://net.bi