Anglican's understanding of Mary

[Cary.Melvin]

What is the Anglican understanding of Mary's role in Salvation history? How does it effect the Anglican understanding of the nature of Jesus (with relation to His humanity and divinity)?

Do Anglican's believe Mary is the Mother of God?

Do Anglican's believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?

Do Anglican's believe that God made Mary immaculate from conception (Without orginal sin)?

Do Anglican's believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?

Thanks

[Polycarp1]

[[[ massive silence ]]] ;)

Actually, that's pretty much an accurate description of Marian doctrine in Anglicanism -- we don't mandate a particular set of views on her.

Among many Anglo-Catholics, Marian devotion is common. The (traditional) Rosary, the Angelus, invocation of her intercession.

And among many other Anglicans, it is not.

The rector of my parish church, the most liberal of a fairly liberal lot in Raleigh, always includes her among the saints who are invoked in the doxology which concludes several of the standard Eucharistic Prayers. But her reason for doing so is to emphasize the role of women in salvation history, as she is something of a feminist.

We are not forbidden to hold the Perpetual Virginity, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption as doctrines -- but neither are we taught to. And I'd venture to guess that 80-85% of Anglicans, if queried, would say that their opinion is that the four adelphoi of Jesus are literally His brothers, the laterborn sons of Mary and Joseph. The one "official" comment on this is the commemoration on October 23 of "Saint James of Jerusalem, Brother of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and Martyr" -- but there is leave to interpret "brother" as Catholics do.

Regarding "Mother of God," it's not a comment I'd hear regularly from Anglican mouths -- but we do stand by the doctrine of the Theotokos, as against Nestorianism; it's explicitly spelled out somewhere in official documents that we agree with and subscribe to the teachings of the first four Ecumenical Councils. So it's valid Anglican teaching -- but about as common as for a Catholic to proclaim the teaching, quite valid by Catholic doctrine, that the Christian is "washed clean of sin in the Blood of the Lamb."

[TomUK]

I must echo Polycarp's comments- the Anglican understanding of Mary varies from church to church, and even between individuals of the same church.

What is the Anglican understanding of Mary's role in Salvation history? How does it effect the Anglican understanding of the nature of Jesus (with relation to His humanity and divinity)?

Do Anglican's believe Mary is the Mother of God?

I think this is one of those issues where asked whether Mary can be defined as 'the Mother of God' many Anglicans would say yes, but upon discussing the matter further you would find the individual to be neutral on the issue, and unsure as to the exact nature of 'the Mother of God'

Do Anglican's believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?

Virginal conception- yes, absolutely. There is indeed a faction within the church of being much more liberal on the matter and using the term virginity to symoblise a variety of things, but on the whole the viriginity of Mary is an accepted article of faith. The perpetual virginity is more contested. From my own personal experience, i believe She was ever-virgin. However, this is by no means the standard teaching of the Anglican church and i would expect to be disagreed with more than agreed.

Do Anglican's believe that God made Mary immaculate from conception (Without orginal sin)?


Probably the biggest area of dispute regarding Mary. In some extreme (not meant in a negative way) churches in the Anglo-Catholic tradition, the immaculate conception is accepted. However, if a consensus was ever to be reached on the matter then i believe it would be firm rejection of the doctrine. I haven't found much favour for it.

Do Anglican's believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?

To be honest, i'm not sure. I've recently been doing some light reading on the matter, particularly on the difference between Orthodox views and Catholic. Certainly the assumption of Mary is a feast in the Anglican church, but i couldn't comment any more on the matter than that i'm afraid

Thanks

You're welcome :). Come back anytime :wave:

[Polycarp1]

Hey, anybody else want to give their thoughts here? Cary is trying to get an understanding of how several different communions and their members understand Mary -- and we've kind of shortchanged him. (I was under the misapprehension that several others than tomuea and myself had answered this -- I was thinking of a different thread, I think :o )

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

What is the Anglican understanding of Mary's role in Salvation history? How does it effect the Anglican understanding of the nature of Jesus (with relation to His humanity and divinity)?

Do Anglican's believe Mary is the Mother of God?
I'm not sure how anyone can deny this. Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus' mother. It's fairly simple, really. Denial of this must almost inevitably lead to Nestorianism. Nevertheless, some evangelical Anglicans would deny it, and it doesn't figure highly in Anglicanism generally.

Do Anglican's believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?
Less likely to believe in the first, I think. Personally I'm not convinced of either.

Do Anglican's believe that God made Mary immaculate from conception (Without orginal sin)?
I don't; I'm sure some do.

Do Anglican's believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?
Again, I am not sure. Some do.

Thanks
Sorry we can't give a "This is what Anglicans believe" on most of these questions, but that's the nature of the beast.

[pmcleanj]

What is the Anglican understanding of Mary's role in Salvation history?

As has been noted, "Anglican understanding" involves a range of beliefs and viewpoints. My understanding falls into the mainstream "broad church" category, informed by some post-secondary theological education. Mary's role in Salvation history is quite simple: Jesus is our Saviour; she is Jesus' mother. God gave her free will in choosing whether to play that role and she said "Let it be with me according to God's will". For this "fiat" we hold her in high honour.

How does it effect the Anglican understanding of the nature of Jesus (with relation to His humanity and divinity)?

Jesus' divinity derives from His Father. His humanity derives from his mother. His inheritance of the throne of David derives from His mother's husband through some rather stretched interpretations of inheritance law. I've always wondered whence his Y-chromosome derives.


Do Anglican's believe Mary is the Mother of God?

Yes, and use the Traditional term Theotokos to refer to her in scholarly discussion. The average Anglican in the pew probably doesn't know the latter term, however, and probably doesn't ever use the former term.


Do Anglican's believe in Mary's virginal conception and is Ever-virgin?

Do you mean that St. Anne was a virgin when she conceived St. Mary? No, we don't believe that, nor is that generally held by Catholics who are in communion with Rome, either. Do you mean that St. Mary was conceived without taint of original sin, the so-called "immaculate conception"? That is a counter-reformation doctrine, introduced by the portion of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome following its separation from the portion of the Catholic Church in communion with Canterbury. Most Anglicans do not accept that doctrine, believing it to be an erroneous innovation. As for whether St. Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus, or whether she had other children, Anglicans are probably fairly evenly divided on the issue with the majority holding that it doesn't particularly matter, since it is the virgin birth of Jesus that is relevant. And that we do believe in, it is a clear statement of the historic creeds.


Do Anglican's believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?

Again, this doctrine is an innovation by the portion of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome. Most Anglicans do not accept it, or they consider it a possibility that is no more or less relevant than Elijah's assumption was.


Thanks

You're Welcome:)

[TomUK]

Do Anglican's believe in the bodily Assumption of Mary, body and soul into Heaven (Like Elijah was)?

Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't there are number of different theories regarding the doctrine of the assumption. As far as i understand it, don't Orthodox Christians hold very different views on the assumption to Catholics even though they both believe in the assumption.

[ICPitbull]

Forgive me if i'm wrong but aren't there are number of different theories regarding the doctrine of the assumption. As far as i understand it, don't Orthodox Christians hold very different views on the assumption to Catholics even though they both believe in the assumption.

Yep. The Orthodox hold that Mary died, and her body was then assumed into heaven to be unified with her soul. The Catholic belief is that Mary was assumed directly into heaven without dying.

At least that's my understanding of it all.

[Rilian]

The Dormition of the Theotokos had early and to my knowledge complete patristic consensus within the church (along with the doctrines of the virgin birth and Mary's perpetual virginity). The Orthodox Church still teaches that the Holy Mother died before she was assumed bodily into heaven. This is not an innovation, the innovation is that people might no longer believe this.

[pmcleanj]

The Dormition of the Theotokos had early and to my knowledge complete patristic consensus within the church (along with the doctrines of the virgin birth and Mary's perpetual virginity). The Orthodox Church still teaches that the Holy Mother died before she was assumed bodily into heaven. This is not an innovation, the innovation is that people might no longer believe this.
Can you give some additional evidence for this opinion? The Dormition narratives date from the end of the Patristic period, but I don't see tremendous support for them in the writings of the Fathers themselves. And there were Fathers -- Tertullian leaps to mind -- who did not agree that St. Mary remained virgin after the undisputedly virgin birth of Christ.

[Rilian]

I think this is the general history of the Dormition/Assumption as outlined by New Advent

The Byzantine Emperor Mauritius (582-602) established the celebration of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15 for the Eastern church. (Some historians speculate that the celebration was already widespread before the Council of Ephesus in 431). By the end of the 6th century, the West likewise celebrated the Feast of the Assumption. While the Church first emphasized the death of Mary, gradual shifts in both title and content occurred so that by the end of the 8th century, the Gregorian Sacramentary had prayers for Assumption Day.

Theoteknos of Livias in his homily on the assumption in the sixth century spoke as though the doctrine was commonly accepted, probably because it was completely bound up with Mary's virginity. St. John Damascene records the following in the 8th century "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven."

Here's some information about the history of the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos (http://www.saintjohnthebaptist.org/articles/TheDORMITIONHTimes.htm) in the Orthodox Church. Probably one of the best writings is St. Gregory Palamas' Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary (http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/Sermons/On-the-Dormition.html)

Regarding the Perpetual Virginity of our All Holy Mother, here are some quotes:

Athanasius
"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Jerome
"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21).

Ambrose of Milan
"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine
"In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

"It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

Cyril of Alexandria
"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).


Also, here's a pretty good article about why Mary is considered ever-virgin (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx).

And there were Fathers -- Tertullian leaps to mind -- who did not agree that St. Mary remained virgin after the undisputedly virgin birth of Christ.

Keep in mind that Tertullian was excommunicated from the church and died with fulminations against it on his lips.

[BAChristian]

Moderator lightsaber drawn...

Just a friendly reminder...if someone comes in here, and posts something, and then you ask them for more evidence or anything like that -- just remember -- if you don't get the answers you like, please don't report this post and call it debate...

You brought it upon yourself... ;)

I'm not saying anyone here is like that -- but we've had SO many threads like this go south in a hurry, and then everyone cries about it because they don't like what they read...

So with that said, the rules state that there is no debating if you're not Anglican in this forum. That includes Baptists, Catholics, Evangelicals, Mormons, or Muppet Babies...

...and yes, even I have to abide by that rule, even though I'd love to comment right now in this thread about a lot of the statements thus far.

If you have Catholic questions regarding what we believe on this issue, please ask them in OBOB. You might find out that maybe you didn't quite know everything you maybe...thought you know...ya know... ;)

Just want to make sure I put all the cards on the table right off the bat... :)

[TomUK]

Perhaps BA you could just offer some of your comments even if you decided to decline any debate. I know that personally i would love to hear your insight on the matter.

[benedictine]

I beileve in the Immcaulate Conception, and I beileve that one can ask Mary to intercede. I am not sure about thebodily assumption. I do not believe that she was ever-virgin. ---Pax Deo.

[prodromos]

I thought Anglicans accepted the Seven Ecumenical councils ???

[PaladinValer]

BA, I think some Anglicans here use the "just plain Christian" symbol, so I'm not sure there was a Anglican-nonAnglican debate. Before you say it though, I agree it would be easier if all the Anglicans would use the Anglican icon so it would make your job easier ;)

We do, prodromos; why do you ask?

[prodromos]

We do, prodromos; why do you ask?


The term "Ever-Virgin" was formally endorsed by the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553), that's why.

John.

[PaladinValer]

Hmmm...good thing I believe St. Mary was an ever-Virgin! :)