Huge congregations

[cerette]

Congregations with many hundreds or even thousands of members... Is it Biblical? Can the pastor(s) live up to the guidelines given in the Bible? What do you think?

My opinion is that it is not a good idea. having to share a pastor with so many others, means he will not have the time or energy to meet my spiritual needs. It's easier for people to disappear in the crowd and stop coming to church etc, and not as easy for the pastor to notice. Remember that the pastor is somewhat responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of his flock.

How about splitting huge congregations into smaller ones instead?

[Lupinus]

I'm not fond of huge congregations. The problems you mentioned just magnify the larger the congregation gets. Also after a point certain corners can start to get cut. And junior or assistant Pastors can only do so much. I don't know if I'd call them unbiblical as I don't recall the bible being clear on the subject. But I think it's an area we can saftly say is not that great an idea.

[TCat]

How big is to big?

[cerette]

How big is to big?
In my opinion too big is when your shepherd doesn't have the time to have a personal pastor-to-member-relationship with everyone.

[TCat]

Mine must be just right then:thumbsup:

[Breetai]

In my opinion too big is when your shepherd doesn't have the time to have a personal pastor-to-member-relationship with everyone.I couldn't agree more!

[filosofer]

In my opinion too big is when your shepherd doesn't have the time to have a personal pastor-to-member-relationship with everyone.

So, 75 regular in worship?

No wonder we have a shortage of pastors. :)

[DaRev]

No wonder we have a shortage of pastors. :)


Ya know, that would be a wonderful problem to have if in fact the Synod were growing. :sigh:

[cerette]

So, 75 regular in worship?

No wonder we have a shortage of pastors. :)


75 sounds good to me.

[ctay]

Let me tell you there's problems in small church's too. I'm still in a pickle. I'm back at the other church, going to my parents church for lenten services, the pastor at the other church I want to go to said I needed to stay where I was at. Was having trouble with my own mom, she's better now since I quit going there all the time.During the year the before this pastor took a call, he was hard to find, if you went to the church to talk to him, he wasn't there. He was hardly there when you needed him.

[ctay]

I think 75 is to small unless everyone will work together

[DaSeminarian]

Ya know, that would be a wonderful problem to have if in fact the Synod were growing. :sigh:

What would be wonderful is if the synod were growing and every congregation could afford 2 or 3 pastors full time. Trading off on sermons, pastoral counseling.

But we all know that is just a pipe dream.

[cerette]

Let me tell you there's problems in small church's too. I'm still in a pickle. I'm back at the other church, going to my parents church for lenten services, the pastor at the other church I want to go to said I needed to stay where I was at. Was having trouble with my own mom, she's better now since I quit going there all the time.During the year the before this pastor took a call, he was hard to find, if you went to the church to talk to him, he wasn't there. He was hardly there when you needed him.
Oh yes, small congregations have problems too. After all, they too consist of sinners.

Sounds to me though, that the problem you described could have been more about the pastor than the size of the congregation. Why was he not at church? Was he lacking his duties out of laziness? Was his office too cold so he couldn't work there without getting a bladder infection or something?
Of course I cannot know what the matter was, so do not think that I am in any way judging this pastor.

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think 75 is to small unless everyone will work together

I love my little congregation, but when you only have a few people, stronger personalities become very apparent. Sometimes this type of personality, if left unchecked can derail the best Pastors efforts and the efforts of less domineering but more willing parishioners.

Mark

[ctay]

I love my little congregation, but when you only have a few people, stronger personalities become very apparent. Sometimes this type of personality, if left unchecked can derail the best Pastors efforts and the efforts of less domineering but more willing parishioners.

Mark


You hit the nail on the head.

[ctay]

Oh yes, small congregations have problems too. After all, they too consist of sinners.

Sounds to me though, that the problem you described could have been more about the pastor than the size of the congregation. Why was he not at church? Was he lacking his duties out of laziness? Was his office too cold so he couldn't work there without getting a bladder infection or something?
Of course I cannot know what the matter was, so do not think that I am in any way judging this pastor.


Not sure, I think he may got tired of trying to get everyone working together, don't know, he's doing something now he enjoys

[BreadAlone]

Hmm..our church used to have 818 members..now we only get about 120 in church every week..it's depressing really the lack of spirituality in the WELS..:(

[cerette]

Hmm..our church used to have 818 members..now we only get about 120 in church every week..it's depressing really the lack of spirituality in the WELS..:(
Yes it is! But it is uplifting to see folks like yourself..gives me hope for the future!! If only old people were active..what would happen after they all go to heaven?!!
Then again it is very comforting to know that God has it all under control and already knows what's gonna happen.

[BreadAlone]

^ That's exactly how I feel about my church! Once all the old people are gone..so is half the congregation!

It's really depressing. We haven't had youth group for like four months now. The first new one was to be yesterday. (For a little background, Stacy, the youth group leader, cancelled it because no one except me was coming.) So anyways, we had one yesterday, and guess who was there? Just me..Stacy said she called 45 individual people; she even raised the age limit to 30 year olds instead of just high school/college and changed the name to "young adult group"..still only one person comes.

I think it's just a sign that the end is near "even the elect would be lost, if that were possible" and what not. :(

[cerette]

^ That's exactly how I feel about my church! Once all the old people are gone..so is half the congregation!

It's really depressing. We haven't had youth group for like four months now. The first new one was to be yesterday. (For a little background, Stacy, the youth group leader, cancelled it because no one except me was coming.) So anyways, we had one yesterday, and guess who was there? Just me..Stacy said she called 45 individual people; she even raised the age limit to 30 year olds instead of just high school/college and changed the name to "young adult group"..still only one person comes.

I think it's just a sign that the end is near "even the elect would be lost, if that were possible" and what not. :(
What you told me about your youth group really bothers and saddens me. :(

My prayer is that you will not grow so tired of the situation so that you too will quit going to church, but instead be faithful and grow in your love to the Savior.

It is wonderful to see your faith and interest in the church. Stay on the right path, lil bro. :)

God's blessings

[BreadAlone]

What you told me about your youth group really bothers and saddens me. :(

My prayer is that you will not grow so tired of the situation so that you too will quit going to church, but instead be faithful and grow in your love to the Savior.

It is wonderful to see your faith and interest in the church. Stay on the right path, lil bro. :)

God's blessings

:hug:

No, I really love my congregation..now my generation is another story..;)

[ctay]

I had been looking through some stuff not long ago, I found 2 bulletins from the church I got married in, attendance 0ver 500 each sunday before that one. Now its less than 300

[ctay]

Oh forgot to put I got married in 78

[cerette]

ctay.... for a minute there I thought they all stopped coming because you got married!! Thought it was a bunch of bachelors that couldn't attend church anymore due to heart ache.

[ctay]

LOLOL I wish, No not really.

[BigNorsk]

^ That's exactly how I feel about my church! Once all the old people are gone..so is half the congregation!

It's really depressing. We haven't had youth group for like four months now. The first new one was to be yesterday. (For a little background, Stacy, the youth group leader, cancelled it because no one except me was coming.) So anyways, we had one yesterday, and guess who was there? Just me..Stacy said she called 45 individual people; she even raised the age limit to 30 year olds instead of just high school/college and changed the name to "young adult group"..still only one person comes.

I think it's just a sign that the end is near "even the elect would be lost, if that were possible" and what not. :(

May I ask, what do you think is happening. I often have seen groups die and people think it's because they need to do everything for the group and spoon feed milk to them and actually I find youth desire greatly to, instead of being treated like little babies, to be treated as adults.

Often they seem to leave because it's just more of the same old stuff from third grade Sunday School, that doesn't really come out of some prepared materials but really helps them and answers their questions.

It seems to me teens are often searching for answers but they aren't hearing them in church so they go walk about. Disappear. At least for a time. Many return when those life changing events take place. Marriage, children, or they come to faith.

Anyway, I was wondering, what does your youth group do? Is it social, service oriented, just what?

Have people who don't come said whay to you? What did they say?

Marv

[mirla]

:hug:

No, I really love my congregation..now my generation is another story..;)

This puzzles me. :scratch: Our youth group is quite active. I'm too old for it, and my daughter is too young, but they have youth group meetings, and the High School Bible Class is very active, and there were quite a few involved in the Sunday School Christmas Service.

I do think it's harder to get a group going (or start one back up) than it is to keep one going. If you have kids looking forward to Youth Group for a few years ahead of time, they're more likely to not fill up that time with another activity. And many kids right now are so full of activies, they're about ready to burst.

In my opinion, it can backfire to expand the age range too much. I know that I had no interest at all in joining the "Young Adults" group when I was younger because it was for people under 45, and the "Young-at-Heart." It ended up being just another bunch of people with more in common with my parents than with me.

I also don't think that you should blame the lack of young adults on the generation. People tend to stop being as active in church when their parents stop making them come. That often happens after confirmation, or when the kids move away from home. Often, those who don't stop coming immediately, stop coming because their friends aren't there anymore. Some of them start coming back when they have kids, so they can say their kids always went to church. Some of them start coming back when their kids are Sunday-School age. Some of them don't come back until they're retired and want an excuse to get out of the house (not to mention they start to thinking about their own demise).

[BreadAlone]

May I ask, what do you think is happening. I often have seen groups die and people think it's because they need to do everything for the group and spoon feed milk to them and actually I find youth desire greatly to, instead of being treated like little babies, to be treated as adults.

Often they seem to leave because it's just more of the same old stuff from third grade Sunday School, that doesn't really come out of some prepared materials but really helps them and answers their questions.

It seems to me teens are often searching for answers but they aren't hearing them in church so they go walk about. Disappear. At least for a time. Many return when those life changing events take place. Marriage, children, or they come to faith.

Anyway, I was wondering, what does your youth group do? Is it social, service oriented, just what?

Have people who don't come said whay to you? What did they say?

Marv

When I say "youth group" I use it generically. The group was called WHY (Wisdom for His Youth) because Stacy had been through the Lutheran schooling system, and she felt that it was, like you said, spoon-feeding of the same 3rd grade stuff, and really no preparation for the atheistic and unbelieving world of college and beyond. So basically it was a thing where we could get together and ask questions about, you know, the Bible and stuff like that. An apologetic group of sorts.

There were like twelve people the first day..the majority of the times afterward there was just two or three and towards the end just me.

But I really don't think this is an isolated thing. I think it's a synod..and even religion..wide problem in our nation.(I realize there are flourishing places, but there obviously are those that aren't.)

I mean, at my school I sit in history and here SOPHMORES sit and talk about what drugs they're doing, what girls they wanna..well you know.

In science I sit and here the seniors talk about getting drunk..crud a girl in my class came to school drunk one day. There've been pregnancies before..and I've heard of guns and drugs on the premesis.

And this is at my CHRISTIAN, LUTHERAN school.

Frankly, I think there's a lack of love for God. God is just "another one of those things." Like breathing..yeah, we breathe, it just happens..like going to church. You don't really pay attention to it..:sigh:

This puzzles me. :scratch: Our youth group is quite active. I'm too old for it, and my daughter is too young, but they have youth group meetings, and the High School Bible Class is very active, and there were quite a few involved in the Sunday School Christmas Service.

I do think it's harder to get a group going (or start one back up) than it is to keep one going. If you have kids looking forward to Youth Group for a few years ahead of time, they're more likely to not fill up that time with another activity. And many kids right now are so full of activies, they're about ready to burst.

In my opinion, it can backfire to expand the age range too much. I know that I had no interest at all in joining the "Young Adults" group when I was younger because it was for people under 45, and the "Young-at-Heart." It ended up being just another bunch of people with more in common with my parents than with me.

I also don't think that you should blame the lack of young adults on the generation. People tend to stop being as active in church when their parents stop making them come. That often happens after confirmation, or when the kids move away from home. Often, those who don't stop coming immediately, stop coming because their friends aren't there anymore. Some of them start coming back when they have kids, so they can say their kids always went to church. Some of them start coming back when their kids are Sunday-School age. Some of them don't come back until they're retired and want an excuse to get out of the house (not to mention they start to thinking about their own demise).

Well..I don't think the expanded age thing was advertised to the already invited people. I think what has to happen is the parents need to be involved in order to make their kids come..although who knows if they'd make them..probably not as I don't see them even in church anyways..:sigh:

And I TOTALLY agree with the confirmation thing. :(

[cerette]

When I say "youth group" I use it generically. The group was called WHY (Wisdom for His Youth) because Stacy had been through the Lutheran schooling system, and she felt that it was, like you said, spoon-feeding of the same 3rd grade stuff, and really no preparation for the atheistic and unbelieving world of college and beyond. So basically it was a thing where we could get together and ask questions about, you know, the Bible and stuff like that. An apologetic group of sorts.

There were like twelve people the first day..the majority of the times afterward there was just two or three and towards the end just me.

But I really don't think this is an isolated thing. I think it's a synod..and even religion..wide problem in our nation.(I realize there are flourishing places, but there obviously are those that aren't.)

I mean, at my school I sit in history and here SOPHMORES sit and talk about what drugs they're doing, what girls they wanna..well you know.

In science I sit and here the seniors talk about getting drunk..crud a girl in my class came to school drunk one day. There've been pregnancies before..and I've heard of guns and drugs on the premesis.

And this is at my CHRISTIAN, LUTHERAN school.

Frankly, I think there's a lack of love for God. God is just "another one of those things." Like breathing..yeah, we breathe, it just happens..like going to church. You don't really pay attention to it..:sigh:



Well..I don't think the expanded age thing was advertised to the already invited people. I think what has to happen is the parents need to be involved in order to make their kids come..although who knows if they'd make them..probably not as I don't see them even in church anyways..:sigh:

And I TOTALLY agree with the confirmation thing. :(
May God bless and use you in the work for his kingdom, Breadalone. You seem to be such wonderful young man :) Wish I could give you a hug.

[RadMan]

When I say "youth group" I use it generically. The group was called WHY (Wisdom for His Youth) because Stacy had been through the Lutheran schooling system, and she felt that it was, like you said, spoon-feeding of the same 3rd grade stuff, and really no preparation for the atheistic and unbelieving world of college and beyond. So basically it was a thing where we could get together and ask questions about, you know, the Bible and stuff like that. An apologetic group of sorts.

There were like twelve people the first day..the majority of the times afterward there was just two or three and towards the end just me.

But I really don't think this is an isolated thing. I think it's a synod..and even religion..wide problem in our nation.(I realize there are flourishing places, but there obviously are those that aren't.)

I mean, at my school I sit in history and here SOPHMORES sit and talk about what drugs they're doing, what girls they wanna..well you know.

In science I sit and here the seniors talk about getting drunk..crud a girl in my class came to school drunk one day. There've been pregnancies before..and I've heard of guns and drugs on the premesis.

And this is at my CHRISTIAN, LUTHERAN school.

Frankly, I think there's a lack of love for God. God is just "another one of those things." Like breathing..yeah, we breathe, it just happens..like going to church. You don't really pay attention to it..:sigh:



Well..I don't think the expanded age thing was advertised to the already invited people. I think what has to happen is the parents need to be involved in order to make their kids come..although who knows if they'd make them..probably not as I don't see them even in church anyways..:sigh:

And I TOTALLY agree with the confirmation thing. :(Times don't really change BA. I graduated in '63 from a Lutheran High school and kids then were talking about the same thing. It was booze, sex and rock 'n roll. Depended on what crowd you hung around with. Unfortunately I hung around with the wrong crowd. The rest were good kids that graduated, went to college and are/have been leaders in the synod and world. Then there were many of these kids who grew up as the "ME" generation and started the most self centered generation ever. It has affected every generation since. Unfortunately their philosophy affected the world.

As I told my kids. You are who you hang around with.

[BreadAlone]

May God bless and use you in the work for his kingdom, Breadalone. You seem to be such wonderful young man :) Wish I could give you a hug.

:hug:

Times don't really change BA. I graduated in '63 from a Lutheran High school and kids then were talking about the same thing. It was booze, sex and rock 'n roll. Depended on what crowd you hung around with. Unfortunately I hung around with the wrong crowd. The rest were good kids that graduated, went to college and are/have been leaders in the synod and world. Then there were many of these kids who grew up as the "ME" generation and started the most self centered generation ever. It has affected every generation since. Unfortunately their philosophy affected the world.

As I told my kids. You are who you hang around with.

Ah, so this is YOUR generation's fault. :P

Just kidding of course. There are some "good kids" at my school..it just seems like nobody is serious about God anymore.

[RadMan]

:hug:



Ah, so this is YOUR generation's fault. :P

Just kidding of course. There are some "good kids" at my school..it just seems like nobody is serious about God anymore.Yes in some ways it is our fault. We allowed secular behavior to influence us. We changed the reality of our generation and our children. We tried to justify our actions because we were trying to tell ourselves that we were Christian but we lived in the world and took on their ways. Now many of us have seen the problem and are trying to do collateral damage control.Maybe too little, too late but with the help of God.

The resurgence of the younger generations' return to basics has God's hand in it.

[filosofer]

Times don't really change BA. I graduated in '63 from a Lutheran High school and kids then were talking about the same thing. It was booze, sex and rock 'n roll. Depended on what crowd you hung around with. Unfortunately I hung around with the wrong crowd. The rest were good kids that graduated, went to college and are/have been leaders in the synod and world. Then there were many of these kids who grew up as the "ME" generation and started the most self centered generation ever. It has affected every generation since. Unfortunately their philosophy affected the world.

As I told my kids. You are who you hang around with.

Being of the same generation, yep, that is what it is like.

As for the influence, Psalm 1:1 states it well:

Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;

[RadMan]

Being of the same generation, yep, that is what it is like.

As for the influence, Psalm 1:1 states it well:

Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;

You must have quoted me before I edited it. :)

Good Bible quote though.

[QuiltAngel]

As far as huge and small congregations, there are pros and cons to both. I do think that churches can become too big, but the 75 that was quoted earlier is not. (I know it was said in jest)